Calculated manipulation and deviousness?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi bpdfamily,

I have been no contact with my ex for 3 weeks now. The fog has started to lift. Something scary has come to light today. Here is the story - When I had to resign from my job last April I had to rent the second room in my flat to stay afloat. I rented it to a very averagely looking 50yr old female lodger. I am early 30s. Even so she became jealous but didn't show it (for the record she rarely showed annoyance, she just became vindictive). I went away for a couple of days on a business trip about a 6 weeks ago and I let my ex stay in my flat. When I came back I saw she had bought a hand lotion and left it on the bathroom sink. She mentioned a couple of times about how I should buy a hand lotion for my bathroom and I never did - I don't need a hand lotion. At any rate, I thought that was sweet of her to do that. Little did I know... .

I spoke with my lodger today and she said it is quite a coincidence that I bought the same hand cream that she is missing. I said 'what do you mean?'. She said she received a gift set as a present and the only thing that was now missing was the hand lotion that was on the sink. I tried to justify and said 'my ex stayed in my room for a couple of days by and probably she thought it was my gift set. Your gift set was in the bathroom right?' Nope... .she took me to her room. It was at the very bottom drawer of her wardrobe in her room. She went to my lodgers room and searched it. She found the hand lotion and now I realise that she may have plotted all this to make us have a fight so my lodger leaves. I am starting to think how many coincidences or unexplained things over the relationship might not have been really so but well thought, planned and executed devious schemes. It is scary. Have you ever had such incidences?

[freedom33]

Hi bpdfamily,

I have been no contact with my ex for 3 weeks now. The fog has started to lift. Something scary has come to light today. Here is the story - When I had to resign from my job last April I had to rent the second room in my flat to stay afloat. I rented it to a very averagely looking 50yr old female lodger. I am early 30s. Even so she became jealous but didn't show it (for the record she rarely showed annoyance, she just became vindictive). I went away for a couple of days on a business trip about a 6 weeks ago and I let my ex stay in my flat. When I came back I saw she had bought a hand lotion and left it on the bathroom sink. She mentioned a couple of times about how I should buy a hand lotion for my bathroom and I never did - I don't need a hand lotion. At any rate, I thought that was sweet of her to do that. Little did I know... .

I spoke with my lodger today and she said it is quite a coincidence that I bought the same hand cream that she is missing. I said 'what do you mean?'. She said she received a gift set as a present and the only thing that was now missing was the hand lotion that was on the sink. I tried to justify and said 'my ex stayed in my room for a couple of days by and probably she thought it was my gift set. Your gift set was in the bathroom right?' Nope... .she took me to her room. It was at the very bottom drawer of her wardrobe in her room. She went to my lodgers room and searched it. She found the hand lotion and now I realise that she may have plotted all this to make us have a fight so my lodger leaves. I am starting to think how many coincidences or unexplained things over the relationship might not have been really so but well thought, planned and executed devious schemes. It is scary. Have you ever had such incidences?

[Infared]

EVERYTHING that they do is a manipulation. We had no idea who we were with.

The word borderline is used by psychiatry to describe that BPD's are on the borderline of schizophrenia.  This is not to be taken lightly. They manipulated us into falling for someone that did not exist... .They are master manipulators, very sick... but oh so skilled, but all of their action are based on deep-seated fear.

Your story does not surprise me at all. I did not know about BPD when I was with my ex. I never though in terms of being with someone who was sick, selfish and a manipulator... .now that I know... .and I can put on my new "glasses" and watch the actions I see what she is doing. Once the veil is lifted and I stay sharp they have no power any more. If you are trusting and in love, you are just easy prey for these sick individuals. They cannot help themselves... .but the reality is the reality.  All that is left is for us to seek help and support and to love ourselves and heal. It is like recovering from being emotionally poisoned.

[Mr Hollande]

Infared, you are one of my favourite members here for the simple reason that you put into words much how I feel about my experience with BPD women. Your above post is perfect!

[Infared]

Infared, you are one of my favourite members here for the simple reason that you put into words much how I feel about my experience with BPD women. Your above post is perfect!

Thanks for saying that Mr. Hollande... .it let's me know that I am in the right place and that we can all come here and identify, understand, learn, share and hopefully this helps us heal from a shared trauma. I really knew nothing about the experience I had been through until I found this website and started to do a lot of extra reading... .then things started falling into place. Still a hard road emotionally, but now I have a shot at sorting out the pieces and healing. We all do!

Coming here also really gives me strength (it's like emotional armor LOL),  to deal with the occasional attempted contact.  I would have no defense if I had not come here and learned!  It gets better... .

[drummerboy]

I'll second that!

Infared, you are a big help in understanding and getting through this crud.

Infared, you are one of my favourite members here for the simple reason that you put into words much how I feel about my experience with BPD women. Your above post is perfect!

[Rise]

The word borderline is used by psychiatry to describe that BPD's are on the borderline of schizophrenia.

This is sort of true, but kind of an outdated idea. When the term first came into usage in the 1930's (it may have been the 1940's, my history is a bit off) it was believed that those that suffered from BPD were suffering from a mild form of schizophrenia, on the borderline between neurosis and psychosis. Since the 1980's though BPD has been recognized as being separate from "mild" cases of schizophrenia, which are now classified as Schizotypal Personality Disorder. In fact, the term Borderline isn't even a universally accepted term anymore. The ICD uses the term Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.

The more you know... .Insert rainbow graphic here.

[Infared]

I'll second that!

Infared, you are a big help in understanding and getting through this crud.

Infared, you are one of my favourite members here for the simple reason that you put into words much how I feel about my experience with BPD women. Your above post is perfect!

I just realized that Freedom's avatar reminded me of what I felt like after I was discarded... Emotionally I felt like an animal stuck in the forest all alone in a giant clamp bear trap. It was godawful.  There are two sides to every thing though... .His avatar also reminds me of a solo backpacking trip I took to Yosemite where I hiked the John Muir Trail high into The Cascades, It was a gift to myself during the aftermath and part of my healing process.  The second night I was out there I camped in a beeeeeautiful open meadowed valley. With this incredible stream running thru it... and at dusk, next to the sound of the stream, with some color still in the sky some scenic clouds... some wolves up above me in the mountains started howling... .and then all the way across the valley on the opposite side another pack of wolves started howling back... .It was a wonderfully beautiful moment... .just surreal... .it helped to reconnect me to the wide open universe, it helped me notice that there was great joy and beauty in the world too... .if I could just manage to pull my head to of my peBPD'S ass!  LOL!  

[Infared]

The word borderline is used by psychiatry to describe that BPD's are on the borderline of schizophrenia.

This is sort of true, but kind of an outdated idea. When the term first came into usage in the 1930's (it may have been the 1940's, my history is a bit off) it was believed that those that suffered from BPD were suffering from a mild form of schizophrenia, on the borderline between neurosis and psychosis. Since the 1980's though BPD has been recognized as being separate from "mild" cases of schizophrenia, which are now classified as Schizotypal Personality Disorder. In fact, the term Borderline isn't even a universally accepted term anymore. The ICD uses the term Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.

The more you know... .Insert rainbow graphic here.

You say patatoe I say potato... .however it gets intellectualized... .there is something very not normal or healthy going on there. Call it whatever you want!  LOL!   

I surely am no expert... .just a survivor of a tempest.

[Rise]

You say patatoe I say potato... .

Hey! Why am I getting stuck with the incorrect spelling? You take the Dan Quayle version, I want potato.

[freedom33]

I don't know about you but to me this story I just described came as a massive shock. Is there really so much malice behind all of this, behind her? Am I such a naive, trusting fool? To me this is as close to absolute evil and betrayal as I have come to in my life. I have treated her so nice welcomed her in my home and given her trust and this is it? Also my lodger was so nice and welcoming to my ex the couple of times they met. It sounds to me as if there is complete disregard of others' feelings. Complete dehumanisation of others, everyone is an object either good to be used or bad to be punished.

Can anyone share similar stories? I want to hear if you have been through something similar.

[Rifka]

EVERYTHING that they do is a manipulation. We had no idea who we were with.

The word borderline is used by psychiatry to describe that BPD's are on the borderline of schizophrenia.  This is not to be taken lightly. They manipulated us into falling for someone that did not exist... .They are master manipulators, very sick... but oh so skilled, but all of their action are based on deep-seated fear.

Your story does not surprise me at all. I did not know about BPD when I was with my ex. I never though in terms of being with someone who was sick, selfish and a manipulator... .now that I know... .and I can put on my new "glasses" and watch the actions I see what she is doing. Once the veil is lifted and I stay sharp they have no power any more. If you are trusting and in love, you are just easy prey for these sick individuals. They cannot help themselves... .but the reality is the reality.  All that is left is for us to seek help and support and to love ourselves and heal. It is like recovering from being emotionally poisoned.

Infared,

Bravo to you. I am on day 18 n/c. I broke up with the grand manipulator just over a month ago. I have not contacted him, it was all him! I responded, which was bad and I realized encouraged him to contact back, so I stopped 18 days ago!

I feel like a rebirth of me has occurred and I will fight for my survival if needed until the finish line.

I referred to my ex as a slow poison. At one breakup I changed the ringtone to " the ex is calling" it references being poisoned again to defer picking up the phone. It made me laugh instead of cry when my phone would ring off if the hook because he felt he was losing control of my mind and emotions.

I did recycle that time but changed the ringtone to " the good, the bad and the ugly " which really described our r/s.

At this point, I am so far gone and displaced from him, I can't believe how I am doing this, but I am! I have blocked him from my head for any good for him and only good for me.

It just finally clicked at some point and I had enough!

Our ex BPDs are a slow poison to us nons!

I love your straight up raw posts, they are my style and helpful!

Keep strong!

To the original poster,

We did our best for them, now we need to do our best for us!

Guilt brings you backwards, we have nothing to feel guilty about because the only agenda we had was to help, be kind and love!

Hugs to you all!  High five to you infrared!

[Take2]

Freedom... .  I find your story absolutely disturbing and yet at the same time not surprising.  I can't think of an event similar to yours but I've experienced plenty that are equally disturbing.  I don't have time to get into all of that right now (on lunch break) but wanted to comment briefly.  My ex definitely stalked me.  Does he now?  No idea.  He would refuse to see me and then go stalk where I said I was going (the gym) to see if he could catch me in a lie - he didn't.  But apparently he thought he did since his texts started in the middle of the night to accuse me of going out with his male boss.  Wrong.  I went to the gym.  Told him that apparently he wasn't a very good stalker because I parked right in front of the gym... .just not in my normal spot since it was crowded. 

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if my ex did exactly what yours did.  They NEED to be right.  They will concoct whatever irrational idea about you and then twist any reality you explain to them to fit their delusions.  I wish it weren't true, but I've lived it.  I still live it although not involved at all with the ex.  (just work together).   

I am curious also to hear what other stories people have like this.  I am certain that there are many.  If I can think of one that is similar, I will be sure to post.  Sorry in such a hurry!

[Rifka]

Freedom 33,

Sorry about not really answering your question.

I really would have to think deeply about that question, I am not sure!

Yes one thing comes to mind right away.

He only had one best friend, a female co worker. They are friends for about 15 years, he thinks the world of her and idolizes her. I have many really great male friends that I love so much and are only friends ( never crossed any boundaries or had any desire to). I was happy that he had her in his life. I introduced him to all of my friends, male and female. I wanted to meet her and he kept making excuses why we could not meet. It made me very suspicious ( I am very secure with my self) I could not understand what was up. Finally a huge blow out with him one night had him blurt out that she doesn't like me and therefore did not want to meet me.

I was so confused how somebody who never met or spoke to me had formed such an opinion.

I asked him what he told her about me.

Nothing was his answer! Finally I got the truth.

Which was a lie to make her not want to meet me based on his poisoning of me in her eyes.

He told me he did not want us to meet each other!

He did not ever want to choose between us! I could not understand this at that point, but now everything is clear.

I insisted on meeting her and finally I did after threatening to leave him. it was no problem on my end! I am still happy that he has her, everybody should have somebody to talk to.

He manipulated the entire situation and made everything really terrible. I just refused for him to be in control of crazy thoughts that were swimming in my head because he didn't want us to meet!

She was not a threat to me at all, I wanted to meet everybody who was important to him!

I introduced him to everybody important to me, even my children's father who is my best friend and totally platonic!

[SC91]

Freedom... .  I find your story absolutely disturbing and yet at the same time not surprising.  I can't think of an event similar to yours but I've experienced plenty that are equally disturbing.  I don't have time to get into all of that right now (on lunch break) but wanted to comment briefly.  My ex definitely stalked me.  Does he now?  No idea.  He would refuse to see me and then go stalk where I said I was going (the gym) to see if he could catch me in a lie - he didn't.  But apparently he thought he did since his texts started in the middle of the night to accuse me of going out with his male boss.  Wrong.  I went to the gym.  Told him that apparently he wasn't a very good stalker because I parked right in front of the gym... .just not in my normal spot since it was crowded. 

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if my ex did exactly what yours did.  They NEED to be right.  They will concoct whatever irrational idea about you and then twist any reality you explain to them to fit their delusions.  I wish it weren't true, but I've lived it.  I still live it although not involved at all with the ex.  (just work together).   

I am curious also to hear what other stories people have like this.  I am certain that there are many.  If I can think of one that is similar, I will be sure to post.  Sorry in such a hurry!

One of the BPD i encountered also do stalking. Cyber stalk as to hack into my pc tracking what i do everyday (to feel a connection?). i suspected it first and tried to gather some evidence but found it difficult as i m not IT professional, others said it could be a back door or router security. It was also becos of this suspicious that i kept looking up her blog for some kind of clue - say for example if i happened to watch bbc news in the afternoon, hour later that day she would post a cnn news website snapshot on her blog; also some other things which we used to experience together and only i and her can understand the msg. Things like these. And it all got me to such a state of fear! You know the BPD never straight forward tell she stalk but keep making these subtle things once every two three days on her blog. And becos the clues on her blog was not solid, other ppl would think i m the crazy one should i tell anyone!

Pure manipulative, devious p, planned scheme to make a sane person doubt their own perception.

[SC91]

As I read a website earlier, BPD can be viewed as a borderline schizophrenia. Suppose they just want to turn everyone around them into schizophrenia.

[slimmiller]

 

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if my ex did exactly what yours did.  They NEED to be right.  They will concoct whatever irrational idea about you and then twist any reality you explain to them to fit their delusions.  I wish it weren't true, but I've lived it.  I still live it although not involved at all with the ex.  (just work together).   

Spot on! They will distort any incoming words or communications through a distorting filter and twist it to hear what they need to hear to fit their worldview. Which is exactly why you can NEVER get through to them if they dont want you to. Because if they dont distort it coming in, they would have to process it logically like a normal thinking person.

I used to see this in my ex. She would actually have a distorted glazed eyed look and have a weird eye movement for a brief second then she would reframe and pretend she heard me say something totally different from what I said.

Craziest story of my ex is she had a best friend (who is now her mortal enemy since the friend objected to her cheating on me. Exes excuse is that the friend was not 'supporting her' To make a long story short, my replacements last name was pronounced the exact same as her friends'. He is a foriegn exchange student half my age.

So she would always go see 'the friend' when in fact she was going to see the boyfriend. When I confronted her about the whole damn fisaco she said she never lied. She said she was going to see 'the friend'. It still boggles my mind that she found a replacement with the same name and is to this day so convinced she never lied to me about who she was going to see.

[freedom33]

Thanks for the stories shared so far. I have numerous examples like that myself i.e. from her make believe world where feelings are facts and wants are enough to distort truths. However I think that this last incidence that came to light is of a different magnituted, because it appears to be a premeditated plan on her side to create confict between my lodger and I. She went to the lodgers room while the latter was on holiday (clear violation of lodger's boundaries/privacy) and also while I was on business trip and I trusted her with the keys to my flat (violation of trust). She took the hand cream of the lodgers room, put it in the bathroom sink, used it and left it there to create conflict between the lodger and I - the lodger would come back and ask me why did you go into my room etc etc. Aside all the betrayals and hurt etc. it shows some a degree of deviousness. Did your ex had any evil scheming like that? This is in my mind different. Do you see what I am trying to say?

My understanding until today was that BPDs are not premeditative like that. They actually are pretty bad in thinking along these lines. Of course this trick would have never worked, or maybe it would in her world i.e. if someone would do something like that to her she wouldn't say anything, she would just be vindictive and pay them back. Maybe she was hoping that the lodger would act in this crazy way that she would and then either I or the lodger would eventually have an argument or break the co-habitation.

[Pingo]

Freedom33, that is some crazy-making stuff you are dealing with!  I have questions about the pre-mediation thing as well, but then again my BPDexh is not diagnosed so still not sure that's what I'm dealing with.  My ex stalked me and I caught him once coming by my friend's house who I was visiting and he was in complete denial about it and still is to this day... .he told me and everyone else that he was just worried about me because it was foggy!  Such nonsense.  After this incident was the first time I split with him but unfortunately recycled and had to kick him out a second time.  He used to check my computer history as well, checked my fb messages, texts.  I went through a period after we split where I thought he might have my computer bugged and I got really paranoid but I have decided he's too technically challenged to do that (although that could have been all an act too!).  But I do wonder if he has my house bugged or a secret camera.  Sometimes I say crazy things just to antagonise him if he does .  It is maddening to have these thoughts and feel so helpless. 

[Popcorn71]

This thread has made me think.  There were several incidents that could have been preplanned by my ex in order to cause trouble.  I hadn't really considered that until now.

My ex hated my son and wanted me to send him away to live with his father.  Looking back I think he would have done anything to achieve this.

One example of what I think may have been a planned scenario in order to get my son into trouble, was when some money went missing.  The only person who had seen the money was my ex.  I took his word for it that it went missing.  The only people who could have taken the money were my son or his friend, my daughter ... .or my ex.  At the time, I thought it very unlikely that any of the kids could have taken the money without being seen.

My kids swore it wasn't them.  That put the spotlight on my son's friend.  This resulted in my ex not allowing the boy to come to our house again, which upset my son.

I think this was a case of my son and his friend being set up by my ex.  Either way my ex got a result.  Either my son got into trouble or his friend was banned from our home which upset my son.

This is really interesting as there are other cases of similar behaviour.  I will never know the truth, but based on how my ex lied to me before and during our break up, I now know that I would always believe my kids over him now.

[Take2]

Okay my ex definitely thinks in a pre-meditative, strategic way.  I know this because in all the changes, reorg stuff that has gone on at work over the last several years, he would always point out ways that other managers would be scheming to try and make their territories larger.  It sounds normal enough, but the way he would describe it would be incredibly well thought out - as if every other person in the company were planning huge strategies to take out all their "enemies" in sneaky ways.  I clearly stink at strategizing because I can't even remember the examples he gave.  But after a couple years of hearing his thoughts about these things, I realized the extent of his paranoia and also how his own mind works.  Yes.  My ex-uBPD-bf would without a doubt do something pre-meditative to cause the desired outcome such as what your ex did. 

Pingo... .hilarious that you actually say crazy things to bug him just in case he has a secret camera!  I actually have been paranoid enough to wonder if my phone and car had a gps secretly installed or if he somehow hacked into my computer.  I don't think so on the computer since he's not all that techy - but that said - a month ago he made a couple comments to me and said "Take2" just like that... .   I was like, uh oh,  he found this website... .!  I didn't react, figuring just in case he did, he would expect a reaction.  I have become just as paranoid as he is now... . 

[SC91]

Okay my ex definitely thinks in a pre-meditative, strategic way.  I know this because in all the changes, reorg stuff that has gone on at work over the last several years, he would always point out ways that other managers would be scheming to try and make their territories larger.  It sounds normal enough, but the way he would describe it would be incredibly well thought out - as if every other person in the company were planning huge strategies to take out all their "enemies" in sneaky ways.  I clearly stink at strategizing because I can't even remember the examples he gave.  But after a couple years of hearing his thoughts about these things, I realized the extent of his paranoia and also how his own mind works.  Yes.  My ex-uBPD-bf would without a doubt do something pre-meditative to cause the desired outcome such as what your ex did. 

Pingo... .hilarious that you actually say crazy things to bug him just in case he has a secret camera!  I actually have been paranoid enough to wonder if my phone and car had a gps secretly installed or if he somehow hacked into my computer.  I don't think so on the computer since he's not all that techy - but that said - a month ago he made a couple comments to me and said "Take2" just like that... .   I was like, uh oh,  he found this website... .!  I didn't react, figuring just in case he did, he would expect a reaction.  I have become just as paranoid as he is now... . 

Spot on. These sickco really has the ability to drive one to paranoid. The thing is their series of impulsive, confused, devious acts are facts stored in our mind, that as a natural response to threats our mind would stay alert, look for clues, and hence more sensitive. In fact I would hesitant to use the word paranoid, because it seems all very reasonable to stay over cautious to protect ourselves, given what these ppl actually did as a matter of fact.

I wont be embarrassed to admit that i also did suspect that BPD installed a gps on my phone, on top of the computer hacking. That BPD is a techno and has a degree in computer science in university so i guess its make it worse. There was a close friend of mine, who the only person who i really talked to about these craziness, that we chat once every few days. He at first didnt believe what i said and actually did check out the BPD's blog after our phone conversations. And guess what, the very next day after he checked the BPD's blog, his computer was compromised! He had to reinstall the pc becos he couldnt switch it on (he didnt install any anti-virus software there prior making it more vulnerable). And I am not talking crazy now here. It is a fact. Now it may just be another coincidence but if too many coincidence link up then its not a coincidence anymore! To add to this i learn from her ex later that this BPD also did hack into his email account after they broke up, delete most emails and sent weird emails to the ex's friends. Crazy is not the correct word to describe this BPD, its real insane! I must admit that BPD successfully implant her fear into my brain. I went paranoid for quite a substantial period becos my pc stored many of my very private photos (some took with ex not having full clothes on) and confidential business data. I worried SO much what she would do next or just these data as weapon to threaten me whenever she wants. Glad or not, its 3 years now and she hasn't threaten me (at least yet) and we went absolute NC. But this fear still is on my mind and i cannot get rid of.

I wonder how you guys overcome the fear of stalking (i would be even more afraid had it physical stalking u just dont know when they will turn up and its like a life under survelience).

Do you guys have any suggestions to overcome this fear?

[goldylamont]

Thanks for the stories shared so far. I have numerous examples like that myself i.e. from her make believe world where feelings are facts and wants are enough to distort truths. However I think that this last incidence that came to light is of a different magnituted, because it appears to be a premeditated plan on her side to create confict between my lodger and I. She went to the lodgers room while the latter was on holiday (clear violation of lodger's boundaries/privacy) and also while I was on business trip and I trusted her with the keys to my flat (violation of trust). She took the hand cream of the lodgers room, put it in the bathroom sink, used it and left it there to create conflict between the lodger and I - the lodger would come back and ask me why did you go into my room etc etc. Aside all the betrayals and hurt etc. it shows some a degree of deviousness. Did your ex had any evil scheming like that? This is in my mind different. Do you see what I am trying to say?

My understanding until today was that BPDs are not premeditative like that. They actually are pretty bad in thinking along these lines. Of course this trick would have never worked, or maybe it would in her world i.e. if someone would do something like that to her she wouldn't say anything, she would just be vindictive and pay them back. Maybe she was hoping that the lodger would act in this crazy way that she would and then either I or the lodger would eventually have an argument or break the co-habitation.

in these types of situations, the best advice i can give is this--trust your gut. the way you describe your situation freedom33, i'd say yes this was a planned manipulation. always trust how you feel in these situations. you may not ever know the full truth because it's impossible to get it from a pwBPD, so using your own instincts and trusting them is your only option. and even though you can't always be 100% sure, it's safe to say that at least your gut instinct about these things is far more trustworthy than any story coming from a pwBPD. trust your gut. and change your locks, don't just get the key back. change your locks and give your roommate a new one. solidify your instincts by acting on them.

regarding your particular situation--it's so common it already has a term: triangulation. it's important on these boards to try and use terms properly so i'll do my best to describe the proper use of triangulation (open to others' input as well). many people here mistakenly use the term 'triangulation' when referring to a pwBPD juggling multiple sexual/emotional relationships, i.e. between you and their ex, or you and a replacement. this actually isn't a proper use of the term. in this case i believe a better term is a 'love triangle'. the difference between a 'love triangle' and triangulation (again, my understanding) is that with true triangulation, all parties actively know and communicate with each other. so while your ex may be playing you while being with a replacement, unless you know and communicate with the replacement it's not triangulation, rather it's a love triangle.

but, let's take your example or another example another person posted about where all parties knew each other--i think this is an example of true triangulation. your ex is doing things to cause strife between you and your roommate. in another case the ex may have stolen money and then blamed the kids (who all know each other) so that there is distrust and drama, and they can sit back and watch the show. in general triangulation involves two people who know each other, and a third person who goes between the two using deception to divide-and-conquer, so to speak.

hope this helps some. but yes it is common and you shouldn't feel crazy for feeling this way. trust your gut and act accordingly.

i can think of multiple things that upon hindsight seem well thought out by my ex. i think the one that really hurt me the most, because i just lost so much respect hearing it, actually wasn't done to me. it was done to her (then) roommate/friend. long story short, the roommate/friend came to me months after i had cut all contact with my ex because they had been having serious issues. the roommate (a woman) was visibly shaken. she told me a story but couldn't figure out why it bothered her so much. the roommate told me that my ex was stealing her condoms which she kept in their shared bathroom. and that when she asked her if she had used some my ex completely denied everything. the roommate didn't care if the ex used them but just didn't like the lying. later on in the conversation the roommate told me that my ex would have really loud and obvious sex with her then boyfriend. and the roommate brought it up kind of light-heartedly but said that my ex would just laugh it off. so it would make the roomy look prude if she objected too much. well, again, i don't have proof but i know my ex. and as sick as it is i put two and two together. i seriously think my ex would steal her roomy's condoms, then have too-loud sex, as a way to punish the roommate and make her feel worthless--the roommate was a funny gal. really nice, but she didn't have a boyfriend at the time and didn't get the same attention from men that my ex did. my ex had mentioned before that she thought one of (her many) bf's had made passes at the roomy (completely ludicrous i'm sure), but yeah i think her whole stealing and loudness fiasco was just to pound into the roomy's head that she was alone that night and unattractive--in essence saying 'why would roomy even need condoms since nobody loves you?' sick. i know. but probably because my ex felt somehow threatened by her roommate. i have several other stories too. it's really sad that someone would go to these lengths to punish someone who they perceive as a threat. the roommate actually contacted me almost a year after she moved out saying she was still affected by the whole ordeal... .


p.s. i remember when i first broke up with my ex when she finally moved out, my mom told me "give her whatever she wants and don't argue. oh, and **change your locks**!" . it took me a year to actually change my locks b/c i wasn't worried about this initially... .but then when she moved in a couple houses down i remembered my mom's wisdom  

[Loveofhislife]

Long Monday here, and I plan to post more heartfelt (true self) thoughts on this topic, because there is a part of me that wants to say, "When wasn't exbfBPD calculated, manipulative, and devious?" He is a software developer, and I can assure you he cyberstalked me six ways to Sunday.  HIS discard of me has (at least) created a feeling of relief that he is no longer going to show up uninvited at professional, personal, and family functions.  That has creeped everybody out:  from my hairstylist to my business associations to my boss, who asked me today, ":)o I no longer need to be using my concealed carry license?"  The term "Borderline" did come from psychs looking for a way to explain how someone dysregulates from neurotic to psychotic so quickly:  unlike the cycling of biological disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia:  of which in my experience, I NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY OF MY 1000+ caseload to be manipulative, calculated, or devious to the degree of my pwbd's.  All of us in mental health world feared the Axis II diagnoses; they could take down the best of us.  And I have close friends who refuse to take on BPD cases:  sorry guys, it's the truth.  Many on these boards are BPD apologists; I'm not.  And I was not only aware of BPD, I supposedly was equipped to deal with it! So, how stupid do I feel?  One aspect that I don't see in this thread is the pwBPD need for CONTROL.  That is a huge part of their games like swiping someone's lotion--"I'm in control."  It's sort of like they believe they are a stage manager rearranging the props to suit their needs. My exbfBPD didn't like my older daughter (she could see right through him); he projected a lot of his stuff on her. A brand new bottle of perfume went missing, and he framed her.  I later found it in a very random place:  a hiding place that he used for other items.  REALLY SICK, and ALL ABOUT CONTROL.

[Rise]

because it appears to be a premeditated plan on her side to create confict between my lodger and I. Did your ex had any evil scheming like that? This is in my mind different. Do you see what I am trying to say?

My understanding until today was that BPDs are not premeditative like that. They actually are pretty bad in thinking along these lines. Of course this trick would have never worked... .

There is another way to think about this. How premeditated was this? Is it possible, that perhaps instead of sitting around plotting out a carefully crafted plan to sabotage your life, she was snooping around your lodger's room (not cool, but not that shocking when you take into account her problems with personal boundaries), found the lotion, thought because it was packed away no one would notice it missing, and just stole it to put in your bathroom because she kept telling you that you needed hand lotion?

Even if this was an attempt to sabotage things between your lodger and you, how well planned out could it have been? You even admitted it never would have worked. Do you really think she put more thought into it than, "Oh hey! There's something I can use to get what I want!"? Is your ex so unintelligent that if she put the time in, she couldn't come up with something a little more damning than a stolen bottle of lotion?

I'm not saying this was okay. It clearly wasn't. And I'm not saying it couldn't have been manipulative. But isn't there at least the chance this was an opportunistic action, and not a premeditated, evil scheme?

[Hopeless777]

Don't be naive. During the year prior to our final split, and through three recycles my BPDw was embezzling money from our charity and sending it to her mother who then gifted it back to her, unbeknownst to me. Probably a felony. They are cold, devious, calculating, and act plain evil once you find out the secrets. I wonder how I could have been so blind.

[Loveofhislife]

Amen, Hopeless 777. It's truly unbelievable what they are capable of and for which they have no remorse. I learned that I was with an adjudicated felon who felt no compunction WHATSOEVER about robbing people of their livelihood. Why I thought he would be any different with me--well, it's going to take a while to forgive myself.

[myself]

the pwBPD need for CONTROL.  That is a huge part of their games

Lying is a way to influence a situation in their favor.

Being dishonest is a major ingredient in their lives.

They know what they're doing. Choices are made.

[Take2]

Loveofhislife... .  I'm fascinated to know more about your experiences and if you've treated those with BPD before and/or since your own r/s.  Obviously not the place here but truly interested.

But had to just comment for this thread that absolutely the need to CONTROL is key.  My ex needs to control me at work whether he's involved with 15 other girls or not.  Whether he's involved with ME or not.  Whether he's spoken to me in weeks or not.  In his mind, I must be controlled.  I am not allowed to speak to men.  Period.  At least in his mind. 

And sadly, yes, it's true also that my ex is truly cold, devious, calculating and appears to be plain evil at times.  It does often sound like many on these boards may not have the same types of partners but there are absolutely plenty of us who do or did. 

Freedom33... .  I agree with what Goldy said... .change the locks... .

Long Monday here, and I plan to post more heartfelt (true self) thoughts on this topic, because there is a part of me that wants to say, "When wasn't exbfBPD calculated, manipulative, and devious?" He is a software developer, and I can assure you he cyberstalked me six ways to Sunday.  HIS discard of me has (at least) created a feeling of relief that he is no longer going to show up uninvited at professional, personal, and family functions.  That has creeped everybody out:  from my hairstylist to my business associations to my boss, who asked me today, ":)o I no longer need to be using my concealed carry license?"  The term "Borderline" did come from psychs looking for a way to explain how someone dysregulates from neurotic to psychotic so quickly:  unlike the cycling of biological disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia:  of which in my experience, I NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY OF MY 1000+ caseload to be manipulative, calculated, or devious to the degree of my pwbd's.  All of us in mental health world feared the Axis II diagnoses; they could take down the best of us.  And I have close friends who refuse to take on BPD cases:  sorry guys, it's the truth.  Many on these boards are BPD apologists; I'm not.  And I was not only aware of BPD, I supposedly was equipped to deal with it! So, how stupid do I feel?  One aspect that I don't see in this thread is the pwBPD need for CONTROL.  That is a huge part of their games like swiping someone's lotion--"I'm in control."  It's sort of like they believe they are a stage manager rearranging the props to suit their needs. My exbfBPD didn't like my older daughter (she could see right through him); he projected a lot of his stuff on her. A brand new bottle of perfume went missing, and he framed her.  I later found it in a very random place:  a hiding place that he used for other items.  REALLY SICK, and ALL ABOUT CONTROL.

[slimmiller]

Long Monday here, and I plan to post more heartfelt (true self) thoughts on this topic, because there is a part of me that wants to say, "When wasn't exbfBPD calculated, manipulative, and devious?" He is a software developer, and I can assure you he cyberstalked me six ways to Sunday.  HIS discard of me has (at least) created a feeling of relief that he is no longer going to show up uninvited at professional, personal, and family functions.  That has creeped everybody out:  from my hairstylist to my business associations to my boss, who asked me today, ":)o I no longer need to be using my concealed carry license?"  The term "Borderline" did come from psychs looking for a way to explain how someone dysregulates from neurotic to psychotic so quickly:  unlike the cycling of biological disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia:  of which in my experience, I NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY OF MY 1000+ caseload to be manipulative, calculated, or devious to the degree of my pwbd's.  All of us in mental health world feared the Axis II diagnoses; they could take down the best of us.  And I have close friends who refuse to take on BPD cases:  sorry guys, it's the truth. Many on these boards are BPD apologists; I'm not.  And I was not only aware of BPD, I supposedly was equipped to deal with it! So, how stupid do I feel?  One aspect that I don't see in this thread is the pwBPD need for CONTROL.  That is a huge part of their games like swiping someone's lotion--"I'm in control."  It's sort of like they believe they are a stage manager rearranging the props to suit their needs. My exbfBPD didn't like my older daughter (she could see right through him); he projected a lot of his stuff on her. A brand new bottle of perfume went missing, and he framed her.  I later found it in a very random place:  a hiding place that he used for other items.  REALLY SICK, and ALL ABOUT CONTROL.

I dont think anyone fully understand BPD untill they have lived it. I mean in the sense that they stood to loose everything.

Problem with too many professionals, if they DO, understand they tend to then coddle it to a degree.

Course if they stood up and called Bull@&AP on those with BPD the one with the disorder will then also promptly drop the professional and run to the next person that they can manipulate.

And yes, PURELY about control and a lot of it is a 'choice'. I am still coming across things two years out that baffle my mind. Like the little things somone will mention that she said or did. At the time I was Snowed under but now it mind boggling how deeply she had me blinded

[Rise]

They are cold, devious, calculating, and act plain evil once you find out the secrets.

This is where I guess we just have different experiences. My ex did plenty of terrible things to me as well, but I wouldn't characterize her as cold, devious, nor calculating. If anything, she was overly emotional, impulsive, at times irrational, and struggled to think about the long term effects of her actions.