Evil or Illness?

[Hope0807]

There really isn't much I haven't read about BPD at this point.  I'm still endlessly curious…but also horrified and disgusted.  I have a really tough time chalking up the atrocious, manipulative behaviors of my uBPDexh to his "illness"/disorder.  I would have gone on to think I was completely alone and in a twilight zone if not for the reality of the term "BPD", the plethora of information online, and of course this site.  My ex has always and continues to be in magnificent control of his rages with those he sees as a resource in one form or another.  Whether it be adulation, financial support, or a wide variety of others, if he needs you, he's a charmer you'd trust your life with.  Once he has a new "supply" on hand, he removes his mask and treats those who have grown close to him with utter abuse and tosses them aside like trash.  Since I'm gone from the home, he has resorted to using social media to publicize his "poor choices" - and since he presents it from such a one-sided stance, he garners tons of ignorant sympathy.  It's all so damn sick!

I don't wish bad things for my ex, but it is excruciating to sit by (yes, I'm moving on with MY life) and keep having to excuse his atrocious lack of regard of good humans due to his "disordered personality". If BPD is emotional dysregulation, then how can someone turn on and off such deplorable behavior as if they are completely IN control of it all?  More days than not, my moral code indicator leans toward evil and not really ill.  Sorry.  Gotta call like I see it.  Maybe I'll feel differently in the future.  For now, this is the only place I can say so.

[mstnghu]

There are definitely times where I consider my wife to be cold-hearted and pure evil. Her manipulation of people and circumstances is unreal. She acts like a completely different person when we're not at home. Luckily, pretty much all of my close family/friends are smart enough to see through her. I know that certain members of her family for sure know the real her and I also suspect some other extended family members of her's see the true her. It doesn't really make it any easier though.

My wife loves to get attention through social media and she also gets a lot of sympathy through that as well. She loves to create drama and tends to post it all over social media websites. It's nothing slanderous toward me, but it definitely paints a picture of somebody who has a really rough life and she needs lots of "prayer, love and support" because she has such a rough life.

[somethingtolose]

You might find Simon Baron-Cohen's book "The Science of Evil" interesting.

His basic thesis is that "ten major brain regions" are involved in producing what we call empathy. "Finding that these regions vary in activity in different individuals according to their particular level of empathy takes us back to the idea of empathy varying like a dimmer switch... ." And that "these regions go down in people who commit acts of cruelty towards others." "Zero degrees of empathy can lead one to commit acts of cruelty, it can leave one insensitive to others, or, simply, socially isolated."

He then goes on to discuss three different types of what he calls Zero-Negative (Zero-Positive are people with Asperger's Syndrome): 1) Type B (Borderline) 2) Type P (Psychopath) 3) Type N (Narcissist)

He also makes a distinction between conceptual empathy and feeling empathy. If a commercial for abused animals came on the person with BPD I knew would be nearly on the verge of tears. This is "feeling" empathy and it's extremely important for having empathy (psychopaths lack this), this is why people with BPD think that they have more empathy than anyone they know. However they have very poor conceptual empathy, they really don't "get" what they are doing. A person with real empathy is able to blend both kinds of empathy together.

I think being angry (and labeling it evil) is an appropriate response to have, because whether they are acting intentionally or unintentionally, they can cause a lot of harm to people and basically be unaware of it. When they are acting manipulatively I'm inclined to believe that they just don't "get" what they are dong. When someone with BPD recovers (they may get the same urges, but they don't act out on them... .often with the help of DBT) and looks back at their behavior they are often horrified with how they acted.

[PhoenixBlack]

To me evil is a conscious choice. It's a complete lack of empathy like a sociopath. Being unable to regulate one's emotional responses and behaving in a cold/cruel manner is a very different scenario.

[Reforming]

Hi all,

I've run around in circles at times trying to put my udBPDex cruellest and most destructive behaviour into some kind of moral context.

I struggled to understand how she could do what did or at least how the person I thought she was could those things.

Is she evil? or sociopathic? I don't fully know though I'm inclined to think evil is as evil does.

How we act to others reveals who we really are. I think accepting that and recognising deep down in ourselves who they really are is often one of the toughest challenges in recovering from a relationship with BPD.

They often devalue us so easily and quickly that we're left standing frozen in the headlights still clinging to our idealised image of them.

Mine loved animals and children (in small doses) but when I look back at her own reaction to the pain she caused me and others I see very little empathy.

It wasn't just denial and self delusion, though she was good at that too

There was weird, chilling childlike inability to actually comprehend the damage she had caused

Part of this was a pathological resistance to taking responsibility for her choices, actions and their consequences, a willingness to blame others for everything. Industrial blaming I call it.

I accept her illness and the misery it causes her and others. I feel sorry for her, but I don't absolve or excuse her behaviour.

For me it boils down to responsibility.

I think blame is destructive and futile because it often robs people of the power to change or work towards a better outcome, but unless we take responsibility for our choices, our actions we are powerless to shape our lives.

She knew that she was unwell, I think deep down most BPDs do, and rather than trying heal herself she poured her pain and hurt on to others inflicting deep hurt and heartbreak on those who loved her most.

Despite her illness she is responsible for her choices, just as we are responsible for ours.

Reforming

[Blimblam]

You might find Simon Baron-Cohen's book "The Science of Evil" interesting.

His basic thesis is that "ten major brain regions" are involved in producing what we call empathy. "Finding that these regions vary in activity in different individuals according to their particular level of empathy takes us back to the idea of empathy varying like a dimmer switch... ." And that "these regions go down in people who commit acts of cruelty towards others." "Zero degrees of empathy can lead one to commit acts of cruelty, it can leave one insensitive to others, or, simply, socially isolated."

He then goes on to discuss three different types of what he calls Zero-Negative (Zero-Positive are people with Asperger's Syndrome): 1) Type B (Borderline) 2) Type P (Psychopath) 3) Type N (Narcissist)

He also makes a distinction between conceptual empathy and feeling empathy. If a commercial for abused animals came on the person with BPD I knew would be nearly on the verge of tears. This is "feeling" empathy and it's extremely important for having empathy (psychopaths lack this), this is why people with BPD think that they have more empathy than anyone they know. However they have very poor conceptual empathy, they really don't "get" what they are doing. A person with real empathy is able to blend both kinds of empathy together.

I think being angry (and labeling it evil) is an appropriate response to have, because whether they are acting intentionally or unintentionally, they can cause a lot of harm to people and basically be unaware of it. When they are acting manipulatively I'm inclined to believe that they just don't "get" what they are dong. When someone with BPD recovers (they may get the same urges, but they don't act out on them... .often with the help of DBT) and looks back at their behavior they are often horrified with how they acted.

Wow thank you or sharing this

[Blimblam]

The way that I see it. The borderline personality is compartmentalized.  So their is a part of them aware of what they are doing and feels the guilt and shame. The thing is the other components of their personality are the ones that take control and the part of them with empathy gets pushed to the bottom of their psyche.

[Perfidy]

Dr. M Scott Peck proposes that evil is an illness. His book " The People of the Lie" proposes that evil can be treated as an illness with everything from psychoanalysis to exorcism. Personally I think that evil is a quality that we bestow on someone or something that arises out of ignorance. When recognizing divinity in all things this becomes apparent. Creating a gap between self, mind, and body helps me to know this. BPD could be viewed as rampant ignorance. Fully treatable by people that have infinite love and compassion. Lots of those people around. 

[myself]

Fully treatable by people that have infinite love and compassion. Lots of those people around. 

I see what you're saying, more people could be at their best. It really would work.

With BPD, there is no real chance of being treated, let alone successfully, unless the pwBPD steps up and is an active part of the process. Most of them run, and keep running, from such chances.

I was loving and compassionate with her. If not infinitely, a pretty good amount. More than enough. Definitely one of the chances in her life to overcome her 'problems'. Yet it turns out I'm seen as  

They turn away. They usually don't accept real help, or treatment. That's the crossroad.

Is this evil, illness, both, or what? Mix in dishonesty, drugs, stress, other mental illnesses, FOO stuff, society, nutrition issues... .It's a wonder sometimes this makes much sense to any of us.

[Blimblam]

The problem is largely systemic.  But their exists the psychopath. 

If we look at things like the Stanford prison experiment one sees we all have the capacity for evil.  Then their is the psychopath which is inherently evil by nature, not a product of social conditioning just born that way.

I agree with perfidy that evil is ignorance.  It is ignorance of the source energy of conciousness which is infinite love compassion and forgiveness.

[jo19854]

Hi, i am struggling with the same question.

My wife left me 7 months ago, out of the blue. I come home from work and only a note "I am leaving you and all of this".

After many years of my support with her surgeries and a chemo treatment that lasted a year (last year)

She said she was once diagnosed with BP but later they diagnosed Passive Aggresive instead and had childhood trauma from sexual abuse.

She was a (sober) alcoholic and we were very happy.

The chemotreatment triggered something (depression, relapse, BP behaviour ?)

But she left and i never heared of her again, dont know where she is.

After years of care she doesnt seem to care for my feelings at all.

She even left her dog behind. What is this.

[Infern0]

Definatley not evil imo.

In the case of my ex, she was the product of a dreadful upbringing. Brought up unloved,  abused, devalued etc etc etc.

I know a decent amount of her past and let me tell you it's a horror story and it's left a person who doesn't really know how to behave like a human being.

In the case of mine she appears to constantly fight against the disorder,  she so WANTS to be a good person she just doesn't know how to,  and is not strong enough to get the DBT that would help her. We have discussed a few times and she knows that she has serious problems but says she just can't face it and has lost hope of ever being fixed.

It's frustrating because it's like just get in DBT and stay there but she just won't,  and if you push it out comes the black paint and blanket denial of any issue.

They are not evil, they are the product of a corrupted upbringing in most cases,  innocence lost.

As badly hurt as many of us have been we'd do well to regain our compassion and understanding.  We DO know how to behave like a human being,  and we should do that and not give in to soul destroying hatred.

[Blimblam]

These themes have been explored in the cristopher Nolan batman series. The answers are encoded into the films. I suggest watching them over and over. It is presented in a mythic structure through allegory and metaphor.  The borderline woman is the them in dark knight rises.  It is also present in the dark knight the death if the white knight is a theme in the dark knight. These same themes are present in lord of the rings.  As we cling to the white knight in our egos desperate attempts to remain in control and have power it is corrupted. Power corrupts and we experience the smeagal archetype or the second face of the white knight as represented by 2 face in the batman series. As Gotham (the forsaken child) holds onto the lie of the white knight as it's savior the dark knight waits in hiding as the silent guardian.  

The disorder is portrayed as the charchter bane and Miranda Tate as cat woman but also as Rachel.  When the joker kills Rachel she decends into the underworld. Rachel was the idealized woman. Now the woman in the dark knight rises is portrayed as the decended woman.  A woman corrupted by forces beyond her control. This is the borderline woman. A major hint is when in the dark knight rises bane talks about being born in the darkness and molded by it. Later when batman is in the prison it is revealed the child of raz al guhl is Miranda Tate and she was the child that escaped and they mention the child being molded by suffering.

I think I have provided enough of a key to understand the films.  There is a lot of subtlety in the presentation but it has many many layers and is a modern masterpiece.