How to react to provocation? I need help urgently please

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi,

my BPDbf (or stbx, not sure) has "proposed" to take baby a FULL DAY at the week-end.

He knows baby cannot be away from me for more than 3 or max 4 hours, as I'm still nursing him.

But he sent me that message that I read with shock : "I'd like to take baby with me from 10AM til 7PM, I think it's manageable. What do you think?"

I tried not to overreact (especially that he's going to T on Monday and I really hope that T can help him stop the war), and proposed that he spent half of the week-end or more with us, at our house (since he's staying at his parents).

He answered "Give me time to think about it" (?)

I sent another message saying that "I'd really like things to improve between us."

No answer so far.

It's a trap. I cannot accept that he takes baby so long. Especially that he wants to take him away to his family's which is one hour drive from my house.

I think he wants to prove that he can have baby for a full day, to tell his lawyer.

Every week-end he comes up with something to provoke me with. Last time it was about the house, saying he was going to send the notice to the landlord... .

I need help in order to not make things worse.

What is he likely to expect from me? What does he want?

Is it to dominate me or to reassure himself that what he says has an impact on me?

How should I react?

[Indyan]

Hi,

my BPDbf (or stbx, not sure) has "proposed" to take baby a FULL DAY at the week-end.

He knows baby cannot be away from me for more than 3 or max 4 hours, as I'm still nursing him.

But he sent me that message that I read with shock : "I'd like to take baby with me from 10AM til 7PM, I think it's manageable. What do you think?"

I tried not to overreact (especially that he's going to T on Monday and I really hope that T can help him stop the war), and proposed that he spent half of the week-end or more with us, at our house (since he's staying at his parents).

He answered "Give me time to think about it" (?)

I sent another message saying that "I'd really like things to improve between us."

No answer so far.

It's a trap. I cannot accept that he takes baby so long. Especially that he wants to take him away to his family's which is one hour drive from my house.

I think he wants to prove that he can have baby for a full day, to tell his lawyer.

Every week-end he comes up with something to provoke me with. Last time it was about the house, saying he was going to send the notice to the landlord... .

I need help in order to not make things worse.

What is he likely to expect from me? What does he want?

Is it to dominate me or to reassure himself that what he says has an impact on me?

How should I react?

[Moselle]

Hi,

my BPDbf (or stbx, not sure) has "proposed" to take baby a FULL DAY at the week-end.

He knows baby cannot be away from me for more than 3 or max 4 hours, as I'm still nursing him.

But he sent me that message that I read with shock : "I'd like to take baby with me from 10AM til 7PM, I think it's manageable. What do you think?"

I tried not to overreact (especially that he's going to T on Monday and I really hope that T can help him stop the war), and proposed that he spent half of the week-end or more with us, at our house (since he's staying at his parents).

He answered "Give me time to think about it" (?)

I sent another message saying that "I'd really like things to improve between us."

No answer so far.

It's a trap. I cannot accept that he takes baby so long. Especially that he wants to take him away to his family's which is one hour drive from my house.

I think he wants to prove that he can have baby for a full day, to tell his lawyer.

Every week-end he comes up with something to provoke me with. Last time it was about the house, saying he was going to send the notice to the landlord... .

I need help in order to not make things worse.

What is he likely to expect from me? What does he want?

Is it to dominate me or to reassure himself that what he says has an impact on me?

How should I react?

Sorry to hear about this Indyan. It must be so tough with a baby as well.

How should you react?

Mine raged for six months solidly. I learned boundaries, boundaries, boundaries was the only thing that kept me emotionally safe. Can you establish acceptable boundaries?. ie baby, will not be away from you during nursing period, no threats etc

That and finding out that she has a serious mental disorder, and all the things she was saying and doing were about her, not me. I know it still hurts when they say and do absolutely stupid things.

Why does he want to send a notice to the landlord? Is there some sensitivity around the housing? My guess is that the separation is causing all sorts of dysregulation in him, so he's responding by trying to make the house situation uncertain for you too. Perhaps I'm pushing that a bit?

[Indyan]

"My guess is that the separation is causing all sorts of dysregulation in him, so he's responding by trying to make the house situation uncertain for you too."



You're totally right.

In a typical BPD way, he did EVERYTHING for us to break up - even seeing a lawyer in secret and looking for an appartment.

On one hand he puts terrible pressure on me telling me I should find ANY kind of accomodation, as he shouldn't be the one paying for the house), telling me that he "could take baby with him full time" etc.

On the the other hand tells me it's still HIS house, that NO we were still "a couple" last summer, that in fact we were still a couple until 2 weeks ago (?), but REFUSES to spend time with me.

I think that he's also put himself into a trap by staying with his family all the time, telling them about the horrible person I am. It leaves almost no room for fixing things  :'(

Tonight he sent me several messages to tell me that "baby can be nursed morning and night, and that should be enough."

Who decides of this?

Knowing that I'm EXTREMELY resentful to his sister (and he knows it), as she is the one who encouraged his fear of me abandoning him and running away with baby, by telling him to see a lawyer (behind my back), he KNOWS he's provoking me when he texted me tonight "In 2 weeks it's my niece's birthday and I'd like my son to be there for the whole day."

Aaaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!

I tried to stay calm and replied that "A birthday is not important to a baby. What matters is us and his big sister (my D10), our state of mind, the way we communicate."

He ignored my explanations and answered "I'm in bed, I'll read tomorrow".

That ALSO is provocation IMO.

I'm sick and tired of all this, really.

[Moselle]

"My guess is that the separation is causing all sorts of dysregulation in him, so he's responding by trying to make the house situation uncertain for you too."



You're totally right.

In a typical BPD way, he did EVERYTHING for us to break up - even seeing a lawyer in secret and looking for an appartment.

On one hand he puts terrible pressure on me telling me I should find ANY kind of accomodation, as he shouldn't be the one paying for the house), telling me that he "could take baby with him full time" etc.

On the the other hand tells me it's still HIS house, that NO we were still "a couple" last summer, that in fact we were still a couple until 2 weeks ago (?), but REFUSES to spend time with me.

I think that he's also put himself into a trap by staying with his family all the time, telling them about the horrible person I am. It leaves almost no room for fixing things  :'(

Tonight he sent me several messages to tell me that "baby can be nursed morning and night, and that should be enough."

Who decides of this?

Knowing that I'm EXTREMELY resentful to his sister (and he knows it), as she is the one who encouraged his fear of me abandoning him and running away with baby, by telling him to see a lawyer (behind my back), he KNOWS he's provoking me when he texted me tonight "In 2 weeks it's my niece's birthday and I'd like my son to be there for the whole day."

Aaaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!

I tried to stay calm and replied that "A birthday is not important to a baby. What matters is us and his big sister (my D10), our state of mind, the way we communicate."

He ignored my explanations and answered "I'm in bed, I'll read tomorrow".

That ALSO is provocation IMO.

I'm sick and tired of all this, really.

Heart goes out to you Indyan. He sounds dysregulated and that means invalidation, emotion, lies to friends and family. The whole fun package.

It sounds like you are interested in saving things?

[livednlearned]

Whenever you set boundaries, especially after a long time without any, many BPD sufferers experience an extinction burst.

Here's some information about what an extinction burst is: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Once you recognize that the burst is coming, it can help to manage your role in the dynamic.

[momtara]

How funny - mine is doing similar things.

The hard part is that if we're suddenly setting boundaries, should we pull back a bit?  It is a lot to do to them all at once.  They are losing a relationship with their kids when they lose us (at least, most of it).

I guess you have to be firm with him.  But does that mean give in a bit on something else?  I am still navigating all of this.  It's really not easy for those of us without mental health training.

[Moselle]

How funny - mine is doing similar things.

The hard part is that if we're suddenly setting boundaries, should we pull back a bit?  It is a lot to do to them all at once.  They are losing a relationship with their kids when they lose us (at least, most of it).

I guess you have to be firm with him.  But does that mean give in a bit on something else?  I am still navigating all of this.  It's really not easy for those of us without mental health training.

momtara, it depends on what you want. after I separated, I introduced one boundary - "no screaming, if you scream or shout at me, I withdraw". She hated it and definitely had an extinction burst. I figured I'm not going to have this for each boundary, so I went cold turkey and introduced 14 boundaries all at once, with black and white enforcement. She hated me and raged for 5 months after that. But it worked, she eventually switched and she even uses them with others now. But it was World war 3 for 5 months. Best is to try things and see if it works for you. I would not give in a bit anywhere. The message would be that the boundary enforcement is about them, when it is actually about you. you defining what is and what is not acceptable to you, and giving them the choice to respect them or not.

[Indyan]

How funny - mine is doing similar things.

The hard part is that if we're suddenly setting boundaries, should we pull back a bit?  It is a lot to do to them all at once.  They are losing a relationship with their kids when they lose us (at least, most of it).

I guess you have to be firm with him.  But does that mean give in a bit on something else?  I am still navigating all of this.  It's really not easy for those of us without mental health training.

Yes, I have the same questions.

He wants so much to be in control that he might just say NO to make sure I don't decide for him... . 

Spontaneous Recovery - Behavior affected by extinction is apt to recur in the future when the trigger is presented again. This is known as spontaneous recovery or the transient increase in behavior. Be aware of this eventuality. It is a part of the extinction process. Don't be discouraged.

I watched the video. The thing is I'm not sure what makes him stop his behaviour.

What behaviour do I want to "stop encouraging"? The threats, the control, the way he involves his family to every move he makes.

Can I ignore the threats? Not really, as he will get enraged and show up unexpected, scare my daughter and I and maybe take baby away.

About the family, it seems yes that the more I've told him how much I hate this, and the more plays that card.

What I don't get is that HE'S ALREADY LOST almost everything BECAUSE of this. I mean, this summer and back from holidays, the reason I didn't take him back (both times he painted me white) was because of him going back to his family - which for me is NOT acceptable.

He did say this week that "he would warn me before coming" (for my D10 to be away, my request) and "MAY EVEN come on his own", but what did he do after that? He demanded to take baby FULL DAY to go to his family... .again.

The result his that he's created war between them and me, and maybe feels relatively confortable navigating between the two.

Although I'm pretty sure he feels obliged to prove them that he's separated from me.

Do you think it's bad if I tell him the truth, which is that I don't trust him taking baby away, since he's threatened to have him FT several times?

[Moselle]

Yes, I have the same questions.

He wants so much to be in control that he might just say NO to make sure I don't decide for him... . 

The result his that he's created war between them and me, and maybe feels relatively comfortable navigating between the two.

Although I'm pretty sure he feels obliged to prove them that he's separated from me.

Do you think it's bad if I tell him the truth, which is that I don't trust him taking baby away, since he's threatened to have him FT several times?

Saying "no' seems to be daily bread for them. There's nothing as powerful as saying "No". It's pure victim. I've found if I hold my ground, don;t persecute and stay calm, the No's can often be turned to Yes's. It's not really a no, they are just trying to get a reaction. Don't give it to them.

This sounds like the last 7 months of my life. My W did the same thing. Tried to turn everyone onto her side, her family, even my own family. She wrote to them (my parents and sister) letters telling them why she was divorcing me, and telling all sorts of lies . My family replied saying, "no thanks, we're not getting involved"

We can't stop it, we can spend our energies trying to defend our name, but it won't work. My suggestion, let the storm play out between his parents and him, they may be splitting you black right now, but if you leave it, behave with integrity, kindness and respect, it will blow over. I've had three such phases in the last 7 months.

let's look at what you can control:

"he's created war between them and me, and maybe feels relatively comfortable navigating between the two."

It takes two parties willing to fight. A third party can throw accelerant onto it, but if one party refuses, there can be no war.

Remember they grew up with him and probably taught him this triangulation game. Don't play it. That's within your control. I know it burns and hurts, we want to defend our good name. but laying low in this case is perhaps a better choice. even reaching out to his parents, will let him know it's not working.

I know it's quite far from where you are, and I don't know if you're in an emotional place to do this. But it maybe something to consider:There's a grandmother over there probably desperate to see her grand-child. Why not bridge the gap. Wait until your bf is out, and just go over to the mother and say I brought baby so you guys could get acquainted. It will probably endear her to you.

My equivalent is that I love fishing. Whenever i catch fish I take them some, or offer to cook a fish meal for them. They accept every time, and they were seriously anti me for a long time. Just a thought.

[Indyan]

Moselle, I did reach out to the grandparents in the summer, when he was back to work (and his family and I were nearby for the holidays, we come from the same holiday resort I shall say). I remained polite, allowed them to even take baby for a couple of hourse or more.

The thing is now I think his sister has proposed to take my baby full time... .so I'm not going to play friends with them.

I just phoned the therapist, he didn't sound very positive, as long as BPDbf remains with his family.

He's "worried" that bf wants to see him to prove him "how crazy I am".

I feel there's no way out and it's freaky.

I did tell him in the end that I couldn't let baby be away from me for a full day, and that I was afraid of him taking baby away and not bringing him back. That I suggested he stayed here at our house for as long as he wished with him, and without me if he wanted.

What did he answer?

That "because of me" he didn't want to come anymore (?) and that I prevented him from seeing his baby.

I answered that it didn't make any sense since that was the opposite of what I was doing, on the contrary that I've been suggesting for weeks that he takes baby ALONE.

No answer  :'(

[livednlearned]

Moselle, I did reach out to the grandparents in the summer, when he was back to work (and his family and I were nearby for the holidays, we come from the same holiday resort I shall say). I remained polite, allowed them to even take baby for a couple of hourse or more.

The thing is now I think his sister has proposed to take my baby full time... .so I'm not going to play friends with them.

I just phoned the therapist, he didn't sound very positive, as long as BPDbf remains with his family.

He's "worried" that bf wants to see him to prove him "how crazy I am".

I feel there's no way out and it's freaky.

I did tell him in the end that I couldn't let baby be away from me for a full day, and that I was afraid of him taking baby away and not bringing him back. That I suggested he stayed here at our house for as long as he wished with him, and without me if he wanted.

What did he answer?

That "because of me" he didn't want to come anymore (?) and that I prevented him from seeing his baby.

I answered that it didn't make any sense since that was the opposite of what I was doing, on the contrary that I've been suggesting for weeks that he takes baby ALONE.

No answer  :'(

This is going to become a familiar pattern, Indyan. He is going to ask for time with the baby on his terms, and then when you offer something more reasonable in return, he is going to find reasons (always something negative about you) for why it won't work.

[Moselle]

The thing is now I think his sister has proposed to take my baby full time.

So sorry for you. This sentence sounds quite bizarre to me. You might want to confront her/them to get the low down. Is it something your bf told you? If so, you can discount it seriously from the truth. They have a way of shall we say "embellishing the truth".

But then again, my W has tried to convince everyone that I am a nut too, so I know what that feels like. Some believed her!

I got to the stage where I could not put up with all this nonsense, I've taken my plunge and told mine rather bluntly, that I'm not going to put up with all the crap.

I know what I want, and it doesn't involve being blamed, shouted at, physically beaten, invalidated and generally treated like rubbish, and I reached a stage where I was happy to walk. Of course that's when my BPD/NPD wife (ever sensitive to the reality of situations, that might affect her negatively), started behaving.

Read what you will into that, but with my one foot out the door, she behaves. With both of my feet inside the door, she misbehaves. I may have to always just be on the verge of leaving.

My heart goes out to you Indyan, having a new-born and having to do this all on your own, with him behaving like an ass. It makes me angry just hearing about it. You should be relaxing and enjoying this special time.

Can you get support from any other avenues?

[Indyan]

This is going to become a familiar pattern, Indyan. He is going to ask for time with the baby on his terms, and then when you offer something more reasonable in return, he is going to find reasons (always something negative about you) for why it won't work.

But why?

Have you experienced this too?

[Indyan]

So sorry for you. This sentence sounds quite bizarre to me. You might want to confront her/them to get the low down. Is it something your bf told you? If so, you can discount it seriously from the truth. They have a way of shall we say "embellishing the truth".

Read what you will into that, but with my one foot out the door, she behaves. With both of my feet inside the door, she misbehaves. I may have to always just be on the verge of leaving.

My heart goes out to you Indyan, having a new-born and having to do this all on your own, with him behaving like an ass. It makes me angry just hearing about it. You should be relaxing and enjoying this special time.

Can you get support from any other avenues?

It's very, very hard. The hardest time in my life, really.

About his sister, no he didn't tell in facto. But I figured it out, since he kept saying "he could take baby FT" when he works until 7 or 8 PM and has no idea how to look after a baby. She has 2 babies, so I guess wouldn't mind having a third one... .oh god... .  :'(

Yes, I should be enjoying these wonderful moments with my kids, but instead I'm so worried I sometimes realize I'm not providing all the attention they deserve and need. I was supposed to look after my baby FT, and instead I had to find a nanny urgently in order to give myself a chance to go back to work.

I cry all the time (when alone), I can hardly sleep.

I have little support, apart from my mum who lives 700 miles from here. And I'm not even permitted to move away to live closer to her, as this might be interpreted as "refusing that baby sees his dad" and would play against me in court.

[momtara]

I should be enjoying these wonderful moments with my kids, but instead I'm so worried I sometimes realize I'm not providing all the attention they deserve and need.

I know that feeling.  I'm doing the same.  Then there are times I double my efforts because I want them to be happy and know how much I love them.  Just know that it will get easier, but the beginning is very hard.  Just stay strong.  It's ok if you can't be there for every little thing.  But set aside time to do fun things together.

[Moselle]

About his sister, no he didn't tell in facto. But I figured it out, since he kept saying "he could take baby FT" when he works until 7 or 8 PM and has no idea how to look after a baby. She has 2 babies, so I guess wouldn't mind having a third one... .oh god... .  :'(

This sounds like confused BPD speak to me. It doesn't make any sense ,  so I don't think it's too serious.

It sounds like you might also be taking legal advice from your pwBPD.  Don't. They try to make it look like they know what the law says regarding how far you can move etc.

Have you consulted a lawyer? I'd recommend it. BPD'S love to see the anxiety their nonsense causes. It validates them.

[Indyan]

I know that feeling.  I'm doing the same.  Then there are times I double my efforts because I want them to be happy and know how much I love them.  Just know that it will get easier, but the beginning is very hard.  Just stay strong.  It's ok if you can't be there for every little thing.  But set aside time to do fun things together.

Yes, I do things with them, but I'm not as joyful as I usually am.

It's more when I'm alone with baby, sometimes I cry while rocking him or when singing a lullaby... .it's so sad

[Indyan]

This sounds like confused BPD speak to me. It doesn't make any sense ,  so I don't think it's too serious.

It sounds like you might also be taking legal advice from your pwBPD.  Don't. They try to make it look like they know what the law says regarding how far you can move etc.

Have you consulted a lawyer? I'd recommend it. BPD'S love to see the anxiety their nonsense causes. It validates them.

I'm seeing one on Tuesday... .And BPDbf is seeing therapist on Monday, T will be expecting my call on Tue AM, just before going to see the lawyer. I'm going to speak to the T to know whether BPDbf is sincere and confused or whether he just wants to prove I'm crazy or something. It's good to know the therapist supports me.

The thing is... .on Tuesday I'll have to initiate the proceedings, no choice. If I don't I'll have to pay myself (it's complicated, my financial situation allows me to get a free lawyer but only for actions, not advice).

[livednlearned]

This is going to become a familiar pattern, Indyan. He is going to ask for time with the baby on his terms, and then when you offer something more reasonable in return, he is going to find reasons (always something negative about you) for why it won't work.

But why?

Have you experienced this too?

Yes, although my son is older. The disorder makes it difficult for BPD sufferers to parent and caretake. It's stressful. Stress triggers dysregulation.

But engagement -- even negative engagement -- is preferable to no engagement.

So he will be caught between two parts of the disorder, using the baby as a way to generate negative engagement. Except that having the baby is not something he can really manage too well.

That's why it's so important to learn what you can about how the disorder works, so you can see the patterns and learn what you might be doing to keep the dynamic going. Bland, beige, neutral, calm, stable, brief, consistent responses (best by email) will go a long way. Managing your own stress will go a long way. It's hard when kids are involved to try and manage the anxiety and stress that his actions provoke, but minimizing your reactions gives him less satisfaction. The more drama and chaos and conflict he sees he can generate, the more he feels emotionally connected, even if it's negative.

[ForeverDad]

He knows baby cannot be away from me for more than 3 or max 4 hours, as I'm still nursing him.

Tonight he sent me several messages to tell me that "baby can be nursed morning and night, and that should be enough."

Who decides of this?

We sometimes have our members faced with the reverse issue when the disordered, entitled, possessive or whatever ex says dad can't have much time with the baby or only under ex's supervision and the simple blocking refusal is made, "I'm nursing the baby and so you can't take the baby."

Of course, this isn't you, you are offering alternatives, but do think this through so your position and replies can withstand legal challenges.  I'm thinking you need to find another way to say No or set the parameters differently since potentially family court - if it is discussed in court - could order that you allow at least some longer visits and and bypass your nursing objection by instructing you to express your breast milk into bottles, refrigerate or freeze them and hand them over at exchanges.

In other words, make sure the nursing objection is only one factor of your objection, not the sole factor, that you have concerns about long visits with him, especially so for a newborn or baby.

I did tell him in the end that I couldn't let baby be away from me for a full day, and that I was afraid of him taking baby away and not bringing him back. That I suggested he stayed here at our house for as long as he wished with him, and without me if he wanted.

What did he answer?

That "because of me" he didn't want to come anymore (?) and that I prevented him from seeing his baby.

I answered that it didn't make any sense since that was the opposite of what I was doing, on the contrary that I've been suggesting for weeks that he takes baby ALONE.

No answer  :'(

This is going to become a familiar pattern, Indyan. He is going to ask for time with the baby on his terms, and then when you offer something more reasonable in return, he is going to find reasons (always something negative about you) for why it won't work.

Yes, so almost predictably he chooses to portray himself as victim... .My way or No way.

The thing is... .on Tuesday I'll have to initiate the proceedings, no choice. If I don't I'll have to pay myself (it's complicated, my financial situation allows me to get a free lawyer but only for actions, not advice).

You could get legal consultations, they might not be free but they shouldn't be too expensive.

[Indyan]

But engagement -- even negative engagement -- is preferable to no engagement.

So he will be caught between two parts of the disorder, using the baby as a way to generate negative engagement. Except that having the baby is not something he can really manage too well.

That's why it's so important to learn what you can about how the disorder works, so you can see the patterns and learn what you might be doing to keep the dynamic going. Bland, beige, neutral, calm, stable, brief, consistent responses (best by email) will go a long way. Managing your own stress will go a long way. It's hard when kids are involved to try and manage the anxiety and stress that his actions provoke, but minimizing your reactions gives him less satisfaction. The more drama and chaos and conflict he sees he can generate, the more he feels emotionally connected, even if it's negative.

Thank you so much, it really makes sense.

You see, whenever I suggest he takes baby alone he finds a reason to refuse. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I used to be able to remind myself that "it's HIS stress, HIS chaos", and I was quite proud of being able to feel unconcerned for months. Then in the summer, I found it harder but still managed, even when relatives kept telling me "how strong I was" (which I didn't feel I was actually). But here... .I feel I'm reaching my limit. I am starting to take his threats seriously.

Until now, he's always denied the threats when I took action.

For example, he told me in july "our relationship was over" and "I had to find solutions (on an financial level)"... .

So I did. I declared to the benefits that I was alone with the kids.

In Sept he was furious and desperate about this... .

And so on.

So I'm not sure anymore. Can this just be "another" blackpainting period? If I take everything he says seriously, I'll do everything to protect myself: lawyer, court, new house... .and our relationship will be over for good.

The more drama and chaos and conflict he sees he can generate, the more he feels emotionally connected, even if it's negative.

I'm gonna print that in large letters . Thanks again.

[Indyan]

In other words, make sure the nursing objection is only one factor of your objection, not the sole factor, that you have concerns about long visits with him, especially so for a newborn or baby.

I did! I told him baby needed to get used to new habits, that he was going to the nanny's (it's his first week) and staying for not more than 3 hours at a time - and then he cries and needs me.

I did say that we could try a bottle in the afternoon PROGRESSIVELY. But how can he do things in a progressive manner if whatever I suggest he refuses it?