Good news/bad news... a matter of perspective

[HealingSpirit]

The good news is, I think it's official that my DD17 finally broke up with her BF22 in the Midwest, so she won't be moving there after all.  (HUGE SIGH OF RELIEF!) However, I was looking forward to having a break from her when she moved there.  So much for time off.

The bad news is, she has been very dysregulated ever since. (Well, at least we knew that would happen whenever they broke up.) So, we now have a new hole she punched in the wall, a huge dent on the side of our Chevy pickup where she kicked it when DH would not give her the car keys, and our rubber martial arts "dummy" has been slashed to the point that he is no longer useable.  At least she did NOT cut HERSELF, so she IS making progress.  (I guess you could call that a pretty good TLC.)  However, she is NOT moving across the country to live with an abusive man. So, YAY!

She has been absolutely AWFUL to me!  I'm sure I don't need to go into specifics, but it's all about how she is "done" with me, and I should stop trying so hard because she doesn't care about our r/s anymore, and I've never been there for her, etc, etc, etc.  (You're all very familiar with the BPD language.)

I guess my personal TLC is that I hear her abuse as an expression of her pain now.  It STILL wears me down to sit and just listen and let her vent. In fact, it is exhausting! But, I am able to hear her pain and not let her venom destroy me inside.

I have been focusing on listening and validating and NOT trying to fix things for her. To be honest, validating her has not been working.  Yesterday, she got about 2" from my face and screamed at me, "STOP REPEATING EVERYTHING I SAY!"  I guess that shows she has noticed a change in MY response towards her.  I think I'm listening and validating correctly. I listen and validate pretty well with everyone else, but my DD won't have it.  Still, I trust the process, so I'll continue. -sigh- Maybe over time, things will get better.

DH even acknowledged me this morning. He noticed she is MUCH meaner to me than she is to him or anyone else. (I'm just special, I guess.) DH said he doesn't know how I can stand it.

I am so sick of daily drama, and the sense of impending doom that is always lurking behind everything I do!   I'm having a hard time relaxing and enjoying myself, but I'm still going through the motions of self-care. Eventually, it will make a difference. This too, shall pass.

HS

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

HS

hang in there... .I know that when my dd17 is treating me the worse it is usually a time when she is really hurting. Don't take it personally... .I tell my dd that I will always love her and that I will always be there for her.

I think you can validate and show you are listening without talking too much... .a simple nod of your head... .eye contact etc... .might help difuse the anger. Hopefully she will get over this and move on to something new. Is she in school? I am sorry if I don't remember all the details but is there some other interest that can keep her busy?

[Elbry]

I am so sick of daily drama, and the sense of impending doom that is always lurking behind everything I do!   I'm having a hard time relaxing and enjoying myself, but I'm still going through the motions of self-care. Eventually, it will make a difference. This too, shall pass.

HS

Me too!  I just had a break while she was in the hospital.  But now I'm back to being hyper-vigilant and walking on eggshells.  I am trying so hard to take care of myself, but even finding time is hard to do. 

[tristesse]

Healing Spirit

I am sorry that you are having to hear all of the anger and hurt your DD is spouting at you. I know first hand how horrible that feels, even if you don't take it personally it still sucks.

I'm glad DD has ended her relationship wither BF, but sorry you have to deal with the fall out.

I'm sure you are very good at validating, and are saying all of the correct things, but my own DD has also told me to stop repeating her or to stop saying things like I understand this or that etc.  They do take notice of the changes we are making, your DD is just hurting too badly at the moment to appreciate it.

I hope you find some comfort in knowing we feel your pain  with you, and that I wish you peace and happiness.

Hugs to you.

[pessim-optimist]

I'd probably have mixed feelings too, if I were in your situation. 

When I feel like I need to take my validation skills to the next level, or even just dust them off, I go to my favorite sources:

Alan Fruzzetti, PhD has a wonderful video on youtube "Understanding Validation in Families"

It's a great resource, and it's fun to watch too:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSIYTQX_dk

And - of course - Shari Manning "Loving Someone w/BPD"

I hear you say that your dd is mean to you and that you try to not take it personally - that's a good thing.

On the other hand - this wouldn't be time to let her cross previously established boundaries in the name of helping her cope.

[HealingSpirit]

And - of course - Shari Manning "Loving Someone w/BPD"

YES! This was the first book I read after I found this site. It's excellent. Up until this book, everything I'd read about BPD said it was caused by childhood trauma and abuse, which did NOT fit our DD.  Manning's book goes into detail about WHY validating someone with BPD works.

I hear you say that your dd is mean to you and that you try to not take it personally - that's a good thing.

On the other hand - this wouldn't be time to let her cross previously established boundaries in the name of helping her cope.

This is an excellent point and you have pinpointed an area I am still confused about.  I'm currently Valerie Porr's book, "Overcoming BPD."  She goes into detail about Mindfulness in Chapter 6. I get the concept is to mindfully redirect our attention to the present moment. But when she started talking about "Willingness vs Willfulness" I got confused. I struggle with boundaries.  It sounded like I am being Willful when I set limits and stand up for myself and my limits. "Willingness" sounded very codependent to me, like it meant allowing my DD to continue pushing limits. I'm sure I've got this wrong! 

I will make a different post to clarify this topic because I am clearly still confused about boundaries, and I know I'm not the only one.    I've noticed some of my DD's WORST rages happen when DH and I stand our ground about limits.  Being "willing" to let her have her reaction to our limits makes sense, but it takes "willfulness" to continue to uphold the limits. The recent destruction of property happened because we would not give in and let her have the car keys.  She was dysregulated before we ever said no to the car, so when we said no, she amped up her dysregulation to rage like we've seldom seen before. I had the phone in my hand, ready to call 911.  All week, she has been saying we are "punishing"  her because we are enforcing our limits about her use of the car.

I know it IS appropriate for us to say no, and to set limits about our home and our property. Yet, the discussion about "letting go of being in the right" confuses the heck out of me.  I don't "need to be right" or to "win" every argument. But I do need to stand my ground and uphold my limits.  I am not clear about this. 

DD dented our truck, and I don't know how much it will cost to fix it. She destroyed our martial arts dummy, which costs about $300 to replace.  DD has no job, and is not currently in college, so she has no way to pay for the damage.  DH and I would have to be pretty "willful" to set up a work payment schedule for her to pay us back for all the damage. But I KNOW that does not work with DD. I'm still reading and learning... .

[pessim-optimist]

I don't have V. Porr's book available at the moment. Is her description of willingness vs. willfulness different from this one in the quote below?

To quote united for now, an Emeritus member:

Willfulness

~ is sitting on your hands when action is needed, refusing to make any changes that are needed.

~ is giving up

~ is the opposite of "doing what works"

~ is trying to fix every situation

~ is refusing to tolerate the moment

Willfulness means that you are still struggling against accepting the reality that your loved one is mentally ill.

Willingness

~ is doing just what is needed in each situation. It is focusing on effectiveness

~ is listening carefully to your wise mind and acting from your inner self

~ is allowing into your awareness your connection to the universe - to the earth, the floor you are standing on, to the chair you are sitting on, to the person you are talking to

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=232875.0

when she started talking about "Willingness vs Willfulness" I got confused. I struggle with boundaries.  It sounded like I am being Willful when I set limits and stand up for myself and my limits. "Willingness" sounded very codependent to me, like it meant allowing my DD to continue pushing limits. I'm sure I've got this wrong!

Can you give an example, based on your understanding, of what about your behavior would be "willful" and why it would be so? 

I will make a different post to clarify this topic because I am clearly still confused about boundaries, and I know I'm not the only one.    I've noticed some of my DD's WORST rages happen when DH and I stand our ground about limits.

There is always space to improve our knowledge and practice of boundaries.

(the push-back is a reaction to your boundary, and it is to be expected. What happens next is what decides the matter - do you give in to the pressure or uphold the boundary.)

I know it IS appropriate for us to say no, and to set limits about our home and our property. Yet, the discussion about "letting go of being in the right" confuses the heck out of me.  I don't "need to be right" or to "win" every argument. But I do need to stand my ground and uphold my limits.  I am not clear about this. 

This is my understanding of it: Your personal values are your personal values - you have a right to have them. Boundaries surrounding those values simply are. There is no argument to be won or lost about those - does that make sense?

It might be your dd's tactic to bait you into an argument that your boundaries are 'wrong' - that's what needs to be avoided (you don't need to have that argument, let alone win/lose it).

DH and I would have to be pretty "willful" to set up a work payment schedule for her to pay us back for all the damage. But I KNOW that does not work with DD. I'm still reading and learning... .

If she was to earn the use of the truck by working to re-pay the damage, it might work. (Of course I am just throwing it out there to give you ideas, it may or may not be the best for your situation.)

The cost is rather high, and if I were to do this with a BPD child, I would allow for incremental earning of that truck use (as in: if she worked this week, she would have access the next week. She fails to work next week, privilege suspended for the following week with a warning to give opportunity to salvage the privilege. She works, she gets to use the car the following week and so on with expected amount of hours or $ equivalent per week)

[MammaMia]

Healing Spirit

I am sorry for what you are going through with your dd.  I can relate.

I am a single parent (divorced for many years, and his father, with whom he never had a good relationship, died several years ago).  I have been the target of BPDs's cruel remarks and damning criticism as long as I can remember. Lately, he has been on a 2 day rage over a dusk to dawn light fixture he has wanted for over a year. I got one, had it installed by an electrician (he is recuperating from a serious accident and just got out of a wheelchair).  Well, NOW he hates it and wants it gone.  When I told him to give it some time, he literally ripped the light off the house he is living in and smashed the floodlights, then called me every vile name in the book, told me I was a complete and unrelenting failure who had ruined his life, and how he was so "done" with me because I am a demon who destroys everything in its path. There is so much more, but I know you all get the picture.

I did not say a word.  I walked away, got in my car and left.  An hour later, he left a message on my machine asking me to buy him cigarettes and soda, just like nothing had happened. I did not call him back.  It is so hard to remain composed through these episodes, but I really have nothing to say that has not been said a hundred times before.

It has been an exhausting week of verbal attacks, phone calls, and irrational demands... .classic BPD. I just need a few days of solitude, and I hope you can find some peace as well.  Maybe you should let your dh deal with your dd, since you are her "target".  Is that possible? 

It is hard to explain what being a "target" feels like unless you have experienced it. It is unbelievably draining and frustrating, but we are not alone.  This site is filled with "targets" struggling to get by. 

Remember, we are all doing the best we can.  Sometimes that is all we can do.  Take care.


   

[lever.]

I am also a little confused in the same areas.

I started a thread about boundaries a couple of months ago for that very reason and there was also a very good thread about willingness and willfulness-but I still feel a bit mixed up.

As I understand it setting boundaries and being firm about it is not willfulness. It is not done just out of a desire to be right and win an argument-it is done out of a need to protect our values and is ultimately for the benefit of ourselves and everyone around us-including the person with BPD.

Yes, there will generally be a kick-back when we set a boundary and we need to be willing to tolerate this.

I think it might be willful to Justify, argue,defend and Explain-to try to make the person with BPD agree with our point of view.

Perhaps the best thing is just to state the boundary and then not engage with arguing.

These are just my thoughts-I hope other people will be along to share as It IS a confusing area.

I am glad your DD has split from her boyfriend but soory that she is targetting you with her hurt feelings.

Last week I had my daughter to stay with her children.

I gave her a rest, cooked, did the laundry, got up with the children, drove them around, lent(?) her £1,500 to enable her house move,listened with empathy, validated. I am tired out. What do I read on facebook?

"I never want my children to call me Mum as that is what I call my mother and we can't stand each other" -I hardly care any more-but what does this say about my boundaries?

[theplotthickens]

My dd also just went through a breakup recently and is extremely depressed and taking it out on me also.  Trying hard to stay out of the victim triangle!  It is tiring.

I imagine emotional and spiritual bubble wrap around me and visualize the comments bouncing off.  I am keeping her busy and doing a lot of self care and praying.  

After  while, it is sad because I have grown callous, but she can't really hurt me much at this point.  I am sad for her misery, but I will hold boundaries nonetheless. I have been taking he'd to swim early in the morning and helping her spend her money at night.  If she gets abusive, I go home and don't speak to her until she treats me like a human being.  I have taken to reminding her everyday how much I love her, even if she is mean and nasty

We also bumped up one of her meds, and I think it is starting to help.

I think I have gotten somewhat involunarily detached, but it has been a good thing in the end.  You can only get fired at so many times before you automatically duck!

I see it as a good thing that your dd is not planning on moving... .there is no telling what would have happened to her without supervision.  Pregnancy, exploitation, physical abuse, etc.  You probably dodged a bullet!

[pessim-optimist]

My dd also just went through a breakup recently and is extremely depressed and taking it out on me also.  Trying hard to stay out of the victim triangle!  It is tiring.

This is a great point - an important part to the whole puzzle.

It is good to remember that staying balanced and out of the roles that the triangle forces us into is the healthy way of dealing with our pwBPD.

To accept the role we are being cast into causes us to loose balance and once we start swinging on that triangle, it's hard to get off. We can either play out the triangle with 3 people, each representing one role (persecutor, victim, rescuer), or we can shift from one corner to another between two people. (Example: I become the victim of my pwBPD=persecutor, I fight back and become persecutor - the pwBPD shifts into the victim role, I shift into the rescuer role, pwBPD shifts into the persecutor role etc.) There are different combinations and ways of how we fulfill or shift around those roles.

More on the Karpman triangle here:

Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

The Three Faces of Victim - Lynne Forrest

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders