Ethical dilemma - can you help?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

It occurs to me that with reworking my memories in light of understanding the BPD and NPD in my parents I have needed to look more closely at the meaning of certain words.

I realised that the feeling I thought of as forgiveness actually is more closely described as 'capitulation.' Now that I understand forgiveness as a feeling that comes from insight and is part of a process that naturally produces it I feel much lighter.

My spiritual belief was previously that I had to forgive all wrongs done to me but now I understand that forgiveness is squarely a result of the person actually desiring it and doing works that show they desire it. I understand that God doesn't hold me to a higher standard than he holds himself to and he doesn't forgive unless those conditions are fulfilled therefore I don't have to do it.

I also had a different definition of love than I used to. What I thought of as love is more a conditionally bartering type of quid pro quo. One where I only get it if I behave in certain very narrow prescribed ways and that doesn't fit at all into the idea of overlooking and allowing and being peaceable. Being involved in a relationship where the other person expects love but isn't prepared to reciprocate in the same way is not loving - it's actually harmful. Self harmful. understanding that has grown my self esteem to the point where I can make my own demands of how people should act toward me if they expect to be forgiven and loved by me.

And lying. I previously thought I had to be completely truthful to the nth degree and provide every detail but now I understand that I have other options - I can disengage, change the subject and withhold information and still be content in my conscience.

Now that leads me into thinking that I may be overstepping the mark because I have this dilemma and I am applying these new definitions to trying to solve it in a different way than i would have.

My brother has a deep traumatic suppressed memory and we have spent literally hour upon hour exploring every detail of every scenario to try and discover the source of it. We have approached family and friends, he has gone back to the places he thinks it may have happened, we have trawled photo albums and old family stuff trying to get more information.

The crux of it is that uBPD mother almost certainly knows what it is that happened but continues to obfuscate and distract - anything so she won't be held responsible for what happened to him.

Now previously I was fully enmeshed with her and one of her flying monkeys in trashing him out and putting him down. I know now that it was all lies and have healed my r/s with him. She is unaware of this and continues to 'want me back' in our enmeshment. I know that if I deceive her into thinking I am 'on her side' she will almost certainly spill the beans and provide some info. Is it unethical to do this? I am absolutely at wit's end trying to figure this out.

Any thoughts or ideas? I would be most appreciative to hear some suggestions/perspectives on this.

Ziggiddy

[Ziggiddy]

It occurs to me that with reworking my memories in light of understanding the BPD and NPD in my parents I have needed to look more closely at the meaning of certain words.

I realised that the feeling I thought of as forgiveness actually is more closely described as 'capitulation.' Now that I understand forgiveness as a feeling that comes from insight and is part of a process that naturally produces it I feel much lighter.

My spiritual belief was previously that I had to forgive all wrongs done to me but now I understand that forgiveness is squarely a result of the person actually desiring it and doing works that show they desire it. I understand that God doesn't hold me to a higher standard than he holds himself to and he doesn't forgive unless those conditions are fulfilled therefore I don't have to do it.

I also had a different definition of love than I used to. What I thought of as love is more a conditionally bartering type of quid pro quo. One where I only get it if I behave in certain very narrow prescribed ways and that doesn't fit at all into the idea of overlooking and allowing and being peaceable. Being involved in a relationship where the other person expects love but isn't prepared to reciprocate in the same way is not loving - it's actually harmful. Self harmful. understanding that has grown my self esteem to the point where I can make my own demands of how people should act toward me if they expect to be forgiven and loved by me.

And lying. I previously thought I had to be completely truthful to the nth degree and provide every detail but now I understand that I have other options - I can disengage, change the subject and withhold information and still be content in my conscience.

Now that leads me into thinking that I may be overstepping the mark because I have this dilemma and I am applying these new definitions to trying to solve it in a different way than i would have.

My brother has a deep traumatic suppressed memory and we have spent literally hour upon hour exploring every detail of every scenario to try and discover the source of it. We have approached family and friends, he has gone back to the places he thinks it may have happened, we have trawled photo albums and old family stuff trying to get more information.

The crux of it is that uBPD mother almost certainly knows what it is that happened but continues to obfuscate and distract - anything so she won't be held responsible for what happened to him.

Now previously I was fully enmeshed with her and one of her flying monkeys in trashing him out and putting him down. I know now that it was all lies and have healed my r/s with him. She is unaware of this and continues to 'want me back' in our enmeshment. I know that if I deceive her into thinking I am 'on her side' she will almost certainly spill the beans and provide some info. Is it unethical to do this? I am absolutely at wit's end trying to figure this out.

Any thoughts or ideas? I would be most appreciative to hear some suggestions/perspectives on this.

Ziggiddy

[gentlestguardian]

Based on what you've written, I don't see that trying to get information from your mother is unethical. But I do think that if you approach it from the mindset of "I'm just going to pretend to be on her side and disengage later," that you'll be involved in a game with a BPDm, which just never ends well, in my experience. I think you have to ask yourself how you will feel about yourself and your values and integrity if you go through with it. Do you think you could you approach the task with a more honest intent and still get the information you're looking for?

[enlighten me]

Have you thought of hypnotherapy? Maybe by regressing your brother you can get to the truth. That way you will be able to avoid this dilemma.

[jmanvo2015]

I like the hypnotherapy idea.  While I've never tried it, I've heard that it can unearth hidden memories.

However, I also like the idea of you pretending to be on your mom's side so that you can get the information you need to help your brother heal.  I have had the same "ethical" type of dilemmas as this, especially because I'm a person that for a very long time was the "good girl."  Now, I understand, finally, that we are dealing with a mental illness and that means that we have to do things that are necessary to do in order to get what we need, and sometimes that means lying.  It's not your fault your mother is mentally ill.  You can't use the same relationship management tools with her that you would use with a normal person.

 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Ziggiddy  ,

Your post is interesting, and the words that you are re-defining are good. I too have been working on love, forgiveness, and while not necessarily the word 'lying,' I have been redefining how truthful I need to be as in 'do I need to spill the beans all the time.' I'm learning that I can make choices, just as you are illustrating by disengaging or changing the subject.

My thoughts as to whether or not it is ethical... .What do you wish to accomplish in the end: your brother's healing?  Getting your mom to be truthful? There may be other things you hope to see come about too. I see that you want to help your brother. You also wish to hold your mom accountable for whatever it is that she has done. Is your brother in the right place for this to come out into the open?

I'm still fairly new in my journey, but as I've gone on the path, tripping my way along, I've come to believe that when the right time comes, things will be and are revealed. Sometimes I get in too much of a hurry to arrive at my destination of being whole and fixed, and I forget that it's a process. I'm constantly growing, even if I hit spots of not being able to figure something out. When I get stuck, I switch to working on something else, and oftentimes I end up where I was trying to go in the first place, but I come through the back door or a window that has been opened instead of the front door. Does that make any sense?

As much as you desire to help your brother be healed from this, I'd be afraid of walking back into the enmeshment trap with your BPDm. There always seems to be a cost. From my own experience with enmeshment, it's too easy to get trapped and hard to get out of it. This is a tough choice. I'm glad that you have healed your r/s with your brother though and that you're helping him. That is wonderful!


Woolspinner

[Ziggiddy]

Hi guys

Thanks for reading and replying to this

jmanvo & enlightenment - I appreciate the suggestion but hypnotherapy is really not an option. Both of us are against it because a) when i used to be involved with psychology I saw time and time again that hypnotherapy not only didn't help but actually often made things worse - as in producing false memories and causing worse mental states after it. the statistics are terrible.

Also personally we both feel that it exposes us to a spirit world where there are too many bad spirits willing to access people. The Bible warns against it and as a Christian my brother heeds that admonition.

   You can't use the same relationship management tools with her that you would use with a normal person.

excellent point. i will think that over some more.

gg

I think you have to ask yourself how you will feel about yourself and your values and integrity if you go through with it. Do you think you could you approach the task with a more honest intent and still get the information you're looking for?

Good points gg. My brother has asked her openly and honestly on 3 separate occasions and just a few days ago, we both went to see her and tried to appeal to the idea that this is her son who is extremely distressed and just wants to know what happened. He repeatedly reassured her he didn't want to blame her and make her feel bad that he just wanted to know if she could help him. She told him a strange story that he had probably seen a strange face - a red face with orange hair and green clothes. ?Seriously?wth?

As far as my integrity goes well you have the handle on it there. My idea goes like this "It's wrong. But hang on, you also used to think it was wrong for people to stop being friends with your mother when she insulted them, exploited them, used them and then took no responsibility. You also thought it was quite correct that she whipped you with a belt for not cooking tea when you were 8 years old and you forgot. You thought it was wrong for people to lie to her but right for her to lie to them"etc

So that's the thing - I don't know if my conscience works right!

What do you wish to accomplish in the end: your brother's healing?  Getting your mom to be truthful? There may be other things you hope to see come about too. I see that you want to help your brother. You also wish to hold your mom accountable for whatever it is that she has done. Is your brother in the right place for this to come out into the open?

I've come to believe that when the right time comes, things will be and are revealed. Sometimes I get in too much of a hurry to arrive at my destination of being whole and fixed, and I forget that it's a process.

As much as you desire to help your brother be healed from this, I'd be afraid of walking back into the enmeshment trap with your BPDm. There always seems to be a cost. From my own experience with enmeshment, it's too easy to get trapped and hard to get out of it. This is a tough choice. I'm glad that you have healed your r/s with your brother though and that you're helping him. 

Woolspinner

Some very interesting points there, Wools.

I am glad you asked some of those questions because, under review I can see that my answers would have changed from what they were 6 months ago. I can now unequivocally state that I am not at risk of becoming enmeshed with her ever again. A month ago I would not have been sure but I have really really come to understand that I no longer wish to be an extension of someone I have such a low opinion of. Thank you - I did not know that till now!

I don't ever expect her to take responsibility for herself or to hold herself accountable for any of the wrongs she has done. It is not in her grasp nor her desire and I don't see that it ever will be. She lacks the most basic functional conscience so it can never change.

You do however make an excellent point about the right time. I guess if the memory is repressed it's that way for a reason. perhaps pushing the issue will not be a good idea. I need to rethink this.

I also need to be totally self honest and ask if I am going too hard because I want his approval as well as to help him. There's no point trading out of one codependent r/ship jus tto end up in another.

Very thought provoking

Thanks guys

Peace y'all