Ever try to rage back at your BPD or NPD relative?

[DaughterInDespair]

Just wanted to post this because, I've often wondered how things would have gone had I simply tried to "out"-BPD/NPD my mother, over the years. Return a rage for every rage, return a cruel remark for every cruel remark, etc.   Have any of y'all tried this.  And, if so, how did it go?

Thanks in advance.

[Harri]

Hi DID.  I never did this on purpose, but I did rage back at her on quite a few occasions.  I don't recommend it as a deliberate tactic.  When I did it, it was because I lost my temper and was caught up in the craziness.  All it served to do was increase my feeling of being the crazy one and increase my self loathing.

Alternatively, when I have spoken up and challenged her thinking, said no, stop, I don't deserve that, even shut up a couple of times, it helped me because I was seeing myself speak up from a place of strength rather than from loss of control.  Sometimes this meant losing my cool and being mean and if that happened I was prepared for dealing with how I felt, but at that point I was not doing it deliberately.  (I hope that makes sense).

wishing you the best.

[caughtnreleased]

Hi there. Yes I have tried this. I think Harri is totally right in saying it doesn't help in any way, as you just join them in their craziness.  With my mother, every 3 or 4 months my father would rage back... .or he would just snap and rage, and she would go quiet... .like she felt satisfaction that he was expressing her rage for her.  I think she liked it.  It was the only time he would actually show himself to have some kind of a spine.  But it just gave him temporary peace and quiet, as she would then start back in her same old routine very soon afterwards.   

As for me... .I fought her back when I was growing up.  I got labelled as the problem child as a result.  I now understand that it didn't help me in the least, and that everytime I did rage back, I lost a bit of myself, while not making any progress with my mother.  Sometimes when I didn't take her Bull-s--t she would escalate.  I remember once in my early twenties, she escalated to such a point that she went into complete hysterics, shreaking and yelling, almost throwing herself on the ground, to such a point that before I even knew about BPD, even in my FOG I was so shocked I stopped and watched, and paralyzed with fear I thought to myself: this person belongs in a mental asylum.

Harri is right on, taking a step back, or challenging her, pointing out what she is doing in that very moment, walking away from it... .essentially differentiating yourself from that behaviour is the first step to making them stop and think. 

[Indyan]

I did - I just couldn't bottle it all up anymore.

He always behaves the same way when it happens: submissive, listens to me at last, apologizes.

But it breaks my heart having to scream like hell to be heard.

Plus in a way it gives him permission to shout next time.

[wildchild]

It doesn't help. Only makes matters worse it is like fuel to their fire and validates their self loathing.  I just "lost it" with my son and lost him as a result. He took off and I haven't seen him in over a week.  I have tried to reach out but he is giving me the silent treatment. In a relationship it is easy to say have NC but he is my son. How do you cut your son off. I don't know. All I know is I should never have lost my temper. I should have stuck to what I know is right.  That is why I joined this board is so I can find the strength I need to do what I need to do.

[Indyan]

It doesn't help. Only makes matters worse it is like fuel to their fire and validates their self loathing.  I just "lost it" with my son and lost him as a result. He took off and I haven't seen him in over a week.  I have tried to reach out but he is giving me the silent treatment. In a relationship it is easy to say have NC but he is my son. How do you cut your son off. I don't know. All I know is I should never have lost my temper. I should have stuck to what I know is right.  That is why I joined this board is so I can find the strength I need to do what I need to do.

I think you should try not to feel guilty.

It seems that bwBPD always fire back when we defend our boundaries. Even if it's hard for both of you, he needed to understand that he had gone too far.

[HappyChappy]

Having a BPD mom and NPD older bro, I had little choice but to do the "crazy act". Those two would have the mother of all rages at each other, every other day. My NPD bro was also very violent with me, so if I made a lot of noise, that would sometimes curb that. But I learnt that if I went louder and crazier - this was the only way to defend myself.   But I now realise, for me it was an act that I hated, but for them they thrived on it and it was natural.

I do believe it was necessary in my position to do this, just to slow the abuse down. But there was a period of adjustment after leaving home, where I was capable of reducing an adult to tears if they tried to have a go. Rather than laughing it off as I do now. There have been a couple of times when I was cornered, that using this “psycho routine” as my friends called it, help me front my way out of danger. But I avoid that sort of conflict like the plague now, so that hasn’t happened for a long time.

I also read once, that if you’re corned by a NPD your best defence is to mirror and go higher. I.e. just go back at them but much, much harder, they do eventually back down (as they tend to be bullies and hence cowards and just want easy prey). Mind you if you did this with a Sociopath or Psychopath I think you’re in deep water! Avoidance has got to be the way - unless you've got no escape.

[nicolin]

With my mother, every 3 or 4 months my father would rage back... .or he would just snap and rage, and she would go quiet... .like she felt satisfaction that he was expressing her rage for her.  I think she liked it. 

The one time I did rage back (not intentionally) it was like pouring a bucket of cold water on her.  Like caughtnreleased related, my uBPD mom got very quiet and SO calmly asked me, "Why are you yelling?"  That was the last time I spoke with her (four years ago) and it always stuck with me because it was so out of character for her.  Reading this thread makes me understand that she did, in fact, enjoy the rise she got out of me.  Satisfaction is definitely the right word.  It makes me feel even more confident in my decision to go NC.  It's been wonderful.

[Daliah]

This is really interesting (in a sad way). I tried raging back a couple of times (with a big break in-between, the second time thinking I could risk another try because I was an older teenager by then) - I saw how my sister, the all-good/golden child would keep getting her way with it in arguments with our parents. She would go so over the top, though, that she outclassed anything I've ever seen outside a movie. But it worked, for her. I couldn't go that far, and I can't think on my feet anyway, which it seems to me you need to in order to throw enormous tantrums and provide creative new eruptions with every new thing that is said.

Anyway, raging back - from me - sent my parents into a white-hot rage. They didn't often hit or beat me - they weren't stupid and good at avoiding detection, although I now suspect that a lot of the mishaps and 'accidents' I had around their house likely weren't quite so accidental. (E.g., what cardboard box silently appears on its own at the top of a steep and narrow staircase with seemingly no one on the same floor within less than a minute of you checking that the staircase was clear before hauling a load of laundry down it?) But they didn't often just come out and hit me. They did on those occasions, and it was the most openly out-of-control I ever saw them.

But... .no, to sum it up, it didn't work.

With the distance from those events that I have today, I now sometimes wonder whether both my parents didn't (don't) have some ASPD tendencies. I don't believe they were (are) full-blown psychopaths, but some things that happened or, rather, situations that they created could have gone downhill fast for me. But, that's far harder for me to make a guess about than BPD/NPD or enabling on steroids, which I'm quite sure is an accurate assessment, regardless of whatelse there may be.

With my own track record, I'm hesitant to outright recommend raging back, obviously, but it's interesting that it would work in many cases.

[goingtostopthis]

Just wanted to post this because, I've often wondered how things would have gone had I simply tried to "out"-BPD/NPD my mother, over the years. Return a rage for every rage, return a cruel remark for every cruel remark, etc.   Have any of y'all tried this.  And, if so, how did it go?

Thanks in advance.



I just realized today this doesnt work. Ive never made cruel remarks but I have done more of my share of feeling compelled to explain myself followed by defensive remarks to balance the score.  It never works.  Its taken me all my life to realize that all this does is keep this insane cycle going.  Some one mentioned to me the other day that my sister treats me the way she does in order to get a reaction to cause the drama that she wants.  I didnt believe it at first. I thought only abusive BPD boyfriends Ive had did that!,  Not family...   Its like my sister knows what's going to get to me and then she goes for it. Its so abusive and she does it in such an under cutting way.  I have to work at not feeling like I have to keep repeating myself over and over to her.  Its a control thing. As much as I wish this night mere with her wasnt happeing I need to change the way I react to it, by reacting the least amount possible,  by knowing I can say my say and if she doesnt accept it, then this is her problem and it's more then ok for me to walk away.  I dont care how conditioned Ive been made to feel that I have to defend myself and get all upset and then end up feeling like Im the bad person.  I know it isnt true now.   This is her issue and Im blown away that I grew up with this crap and all ways felt helpless to it.  This is what she wants so she can keep doing it.  Im grown up now. The game board is changing. Im not playing it anymore.         

[HappyChappy]

Interesting thread. It occurs from the last post about a sister annoying their sibling, that my two young kids do this to each other. A young child raging back can prevent bullies from taking hold. No one bullied me outside the house. But raging back at a bully you live with, one that knows they’ve got you cornered, that you’re going no where, that they can just wear you down... .a BPD will put you in room 101 and break you. I thought I'd survived my childhood, but I still have bad PTSD.  If you don't stand up for yourself as a scapegoat, do you just become the failure in your BPD's fantasy thinking ? Do you lose your sence of self ? I guess every which way you lose in such a position.

The interesting point for me is, that people have often commented on the fact, It’s almost impossible to provoke an argument out of me. I raged like a good un as a child, countless soar throats, but that ended as soon as I left that house. My wife and I have never argued once, so when our kids do it, it does feel very uncomfortable.

[Deb]

I snapped and raged at my dBPD sister once. Unfortunately, it was in public and I was the one who looked crazy. Fifteen years later, I hear she is STILL telling people how "terrified" she is of her "crazy" sister. Sigh.

[Duped11years]

I used to sit and listen to her rage, feeling an overwhelming build-up of anxiety but just take it, & then over the years I started to fight back, raising my voice to overcome her constant chatter to try to break through to her - JADE'ing I guess. NEVER worked. She would kick into even louder crazier ways & then hang up, not answer when i called back & then she'd block me. She would unblock when she calmed down, I'd contact her, & the fact that I raged in return to what she was doing (a serious gaslighter) resulted in her stating the whole thing was my fault & she was scared to reach out to me because i made her so upset. Twist. She would never acknowledge or understand what occured & never could have a post-op adult convo, discuss what occured & come to a reasonable conclusion. I always felt i could get through to her in spite of this cycle repeating itself at an increasingly higher frequency. What is that saying about the definition of insanity? Applies big time...  

Our last discussion started with a series of her gaslighting (which had already gone on for days prior, but that day it was on steroids) & I sensed the panic attack coming on & I flipped, increasingly gettting louder trying to explain myself. Strange enough, she did click into that "why are you yelling" convo, I think because I was painted completely black at that point, whereas in the past, she went into gaslighting yet still 'loved' me... .not sure. Strange though. But that was the final final final last straw    Bottom line, & I wished I wish I would have followed this from those early years on, but dont allow yourself to let them get to you & rage back. It only magnifies the anxiety you already are feeling & makes no differance to them & their screwed up perspective.