"Why do you do this to me?"

[Determined1]

I always get lost on how to respond to this properly. I feel like this is one of the "no-win, checkmate, any last words" question that is designed to get myself hanged. Here is how I responded before:

"What did I do?" = ignorance of situation, makes her look crazy and stupid because I don't know what I did specifically = invalidation.

"Huh? = see above.

"I didn't do anything" = denial and not owning up to your part (in her eyes), makes her look crazy and stupid = invalidation.

Silence = lack of response/acknowledgment, impression that you don't care = invalidation.

"I can tell that you are really hurt by something that I did. Can you tell me what it was?" = her response is "you should know what it was" or "stop acting like a therapist!" = invalidation.

Facial expression shows confusion and frustration = invalidation.

"Because you did/say ... ." = feels like blaming her/making her the problem that she has felt and heard her whole life = invalidation.

"It was not my intention to hurt you" = her response, "but you did", some defensiveness and sneaky way to not admit what you did (in her eyes) = invalidation.

"I understand that you felt I did something and that it was a trigger for you" seems to sometime work.

How have you folks handled this situation? Thanks in advance!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[nightmoves]

Dear Determined... .


I read your post and responses... .been there... .again and again.

It strikes me something that was said to me long ago when dealing with my BPDw. Many times a response that would be fine and natural and normal to a person without BPD... .is NOT ok by someone who has BPD.

The reason I say this is... .as I was reading your reponses - I was struck with how genuine they seem... (as they are when I say them)... .but the counter intuitive reality is that they will indeed be statements which will ignite fury, anger, from our spouses.

It is exhausting to experience.

I think your reference to the "checkmate" ... .is pretty close. It is like playing chess and moving a piece pretty naturally and innocently ... .only to get ... .BOOM ... CHECKMATE!.

The tough thing for me at this point is... .the enormous energy, pre-thought, upside down world necessary to actually prevent the "no-win"... .and "checkmate"situations.

Again - exhausting.

Maybe we will both find some chess moves on posts to follow. But have to tell you ... .I have worked at the "moves" for quuite a while now... .and they DO work... .but even WITH THAT... .you will find over and over again... .BOOM!... .checkmate... .on days that you never saw it coming... .

[Determined1]

Nightmoves,

Yes it is very tiring and I dread whenever I get asked that. Of course, I am looking for ways (if possible) for both of us to benefit from the interaction. Sometimes it is almost as if you just have to chalk it up to "better luck next time". I am aware that this could also be a projection question on her part and prevention of this situation is nearly impossible. Thanks for your response.

[maxsterling]

Ahh the loaded question - the hallmark of BPD.  I hate being given the loaded question, it's not fair, and it solves nothing. 

Think of it from her end, though.  She just asked you a question where it is impossible to get a response to satisfy her.  Either way, she won't be satisfied.  Must be hard to live your life like that, always needing to ask a question where no response will satisfy her emotions. 

That said, try not to worry too much about your response because no matter what you say or do, you are up S--t creek without a paddle.  Answer respectfully and honestly, and if she rants and rages, deal with that using boundaries. 

What was the one I was asked last night - "how come you never kissed me when I got home?  You never kiss me anymore!"  1)  I did kiss her.  2) I'm fighting a cold, and have a snotty nose.  So what did I do?  I kissed her, told her I loved her, and goodnight.

[formflier]

 

I am a fan of "Help me understand... ."

" I need help understanding your question... .

Then ask her about her emotions... not the act... the thing you did...

Then see if you can validate the emotion... ignore the act.

Don't confess...

This has sort of re-emerged in my r/s... .in my case there is paranoia behind her questions... .so I look for the reason (that I don't love her and have taken up with someone else)... .and try to focus on I love you... .I want to be with you... .

And just keep hammering away at what they are paranoid about.

If the source of the questions is not paranoia... .then... .try to identify the source... .the core issue... .and let's talk about that.

Last bit of theory... .

Most likely... .the question is not the issue... .it is a symptom.  So... lets not treat the symptom... .let's identify the core and treat that.

With symptoms... .just don't make them worse.  So... as long as you don't directly invalidate... .or call her stupid... .crazy... .you are probably going to do OK.

[Determined1]

Formflier,

I forgot to include that in one of my responses as I don't use it that often. When I do use it, she replies with "You just don't get me and you should already know what it is." I am in a graduate program to become a marriage and family therapist and she will hit me with the "how can you help your clients when you can't even help me" remark. One thing is that the structure of communication is somewhat different at times between intimate partners and therapist/client. Another is that the therapist can not help much if the client refuses to talk about the issue. Yes I understand that I need to keep probing for the underlying issue but she has to be willing to talk and communicate as well. It is a shared responsibility and not just on me to make her talk. I just wait for the time to pass as it is one of the few things that can help when her emotions become regulated again.

[maxsterling]

The "help me understand" hasn't worked so well for me, either.  I think part of the problem is that she is often already enraged, and nothing I can say or do will change that.  It works okay after she has calmed a bit, but in the ramping up/heated phase it makes things worse.

[takingandsending]

Determined1,

Is honest, respectful communication a central value you hold as part of what makes you "you"? If it is, and I think that is the case from your posts that I have read, then you may view it as your wife needing a consistent boundary around acceptable communication to know how she can define herself.

She's confused about what she is feeling. She wants you to know what she is feeling to relieve the burden of having to figure this out herself. She is shifting her discomfort into blame to ease her suffering as a maladaptive BPD strategy.

Like formflier, you want to get at the underlying emotion, not the words being spoken. But, as max notes, if she's already shifting the blame out, she's already emotionally heightened. So you may have to communicate your boundary clearly and compassionately right away. It may help you both to eventually get to the emotion that is at the core of the behavior. I have been working on more consistent communication of my boundaries around blame. It's not respectful communication, it doesn't get us anywhere, it upsets me, it doesn't help her, so I let her know that I understand she is upset, I want to talk about the issue but will not do so until the blame stops. And then I walk away. Oddly enough, this is helping. She is not presenting me with the no-win comments as frequently because she knows that I am serious about not engaging her in this communication approach.

What do you think? Have you tried to place some boundaries around acceptable communication methods?

[Determined1]

Takingandsending,

Honest, respectful communication is one of values and I admit that I am still try to establish clear, consistent boundaries with her. I admit sometimes being stuck in the FOG because I know the boundaries are for me but still have some guilt of being accused of abandoning her. Right now, I have been getting the silent/rage treatment for about a week and when I try to engage her and she is still angry, I disengage as I know it will not go any way. However, I admit that I don't clear state my intentions that I can not talk to her while she is disregulated and it hinders the communication process so that we can both benefit from it. It is still hard for me to imagine since her childhood (like many other pwBPDs) consist of FoO leaving her alone when she expressed high emotional reaction without the validation which caused her to fear abandonment. It feels like I would be doing the same and that makes it hard to set up the boundaries. I know that things would get worse before they get better and need to focus on the long term effects and not the short term effects. I am going to keep trying. Thanks!

[formflier]

 

"let's talk about this properly"

Or "let's go get a warm cup of coffee so we can talk about this properly... "

Or variations on that

But... .yeah... .sometimes when they are headed for the moon... .you just get out of the way.

I've actually had some success lately in getting from half dysregulated... .to calmed back down... .

Or maybe all the energy just "burned out"

But it took a while and was a bit exhausting.

Not taking it personally helps me recover quickly

although this sets up the odd situation where she feels great... .remembers a conversation fondly... .and I'm worn out.

In the past I would feel destroyed... failure and all that... .now I'm just tired.

[maxsterling]

I think the eventual place we have to get to in order to enjoy our lives with a BPD partner is confidence in ourselves and that what we are doing is loving and respectful.  I think many of us (myself included), despite our very best conscious efforts not to, still at least subconsciously fall into the pattern of wanting to fix them or solve their problems.  And that never works.  I think my desire to fix things is for me to get some kind of peace and quiet and stable atmosphere.  Other people may get warm feelings by helping others, but whatever the reason, we do it.

But I think for us to be happy in a r/s with a pwBPD, we have to get out of that mindset, take care of ourselves, meet our own needs, treat them well without trying to fix their problems or soothe them, AND BASICALLY NOT CARE WHEN THE DYSREGULATE AND RAGE.  I wrote that in caps because I think that is important for getting out of the FOG.  That means being okay with the idea that they may suddenly storm off and end the r/s, react harshly, say nasty things, cheat, lie.  Our goal is to understand there is a real chance that that bad stuff will happen, yet know ourselves well enough that we can react appropriately and accordingly when our boundaries are crossed.  We are dealing with pwBPD - and that is a pretty good guarantee we will deal with verbal and emotional abuse (if not physical).  Our real challenge if we choose to stay in these r/s is for us to understand and accept that that bad stuff will happen and that there is nothing we can do about it, and to have appropriate boundaries to protect ourselves when it does.

[nightmoves]

Taking and Sending writes above:

"She is shifting her discomfort into blame to ease her suffering as a maladaptive BPD strategy."

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

BRILLIANT

And SO... .ANYTHING that is said to understand, explain, explore, delve into, illustrate, etc... etc... etc...

RISKS the shift of discomfort... .and the EASE OF SUFFERING ... .FOR THEM!

Of course... .in doing so... .that places DISCOMFORT... .and SUFFERING... .on YOU/US!

WHAT did we do to deserve this?

[Determined1]

Nightmoves,

I honestly have never asked myself that question. I know that I didn't do anything to deserve this. It was more along the lines of why do I put up with this without setting boundaries. PwBPD also ask themselves that question about what did they do to deserve this. Us NONs should consider ourselves grateful and lucky to be able to distinguish between feelings and facts, having gray areas of thinking, ability to self-regulate more easily and often than they can. PwBPD have choices about their circumstances as well but sadly, the window of opportunity and complete success is much smaller. If anything, maybe that can help combat that cycle of thinking that we somehow did something to deserve this treatment.

[nightmoves]

I do get all that.

AND ... .I have empathy and compassion... .

But I am simply worn out at being treated like crap.

There MUST be some part of them that realize how badly they are treating the other person... .

[Determined1]

I agree with you. I think it is very rare that a pwBPD is completely unaware of their treatment of others (denial does not count). I suppose their shame and embarrassment automatically blocks that out and that's where the projecting behavior comes from. I try to look at it as they are venting at me as if I was a representation of their inner self (the bad side). Of course, we are entitled to our own feelings as well and it is tough as check to try and balance our feelings along with theirs while they are primarily concerned with only their own it appears.

[nightmoves]

Yes - I agree.

My BPDW actually does this... .

When I am in a VERY compassionate place... .and truly and genuinly feel concern for the negative place. anger, and pain she is in... .and ask her "what is wrong?"

She get FURIOUS at me and say "you should KNOW what is wrong!"

and then says "Now I am FURIOUS that you don't know"!

HUH?

Ok... .so I could hypothesis about dozens of things I can think of that it might be.

BUT... .when it goes from 0-50 ... usually there is somethign specific... .

But then... .like... .just TELL ME... .

I have read that pw BPD seem to believe that others can "read their mind"... .

But geeez!

Maybe it is jusyt as simple as ... .they cannot really explain it.

Or - They do not WANT to explain it to you (then they are vulnerable... .or need to then OWN the issues)

Many times it seems that she truly just WANTS to hold onto the anger. The being angry at ME... .is one of her best ways to 'COPE" with the anger and release it from inside her ONTO me.

So then WHY WOULD she want to "figure it out. Or rationalize it"?

To do that ... .she would then in essence have to say "I am not really angry at you... .I am angry at MYSELF" Or stuff within ME"

SO... .then they let the projection, transference, etc... etc... of aner onto the other person CONTINUE... .

I guess this really is like a 4 yr old place they are stuck in.

Little children lash out at anyone and anything when they are angry inside. Over ANYTHING.

I must say ... .I have seen this process in her FOO. OFTEN.

No dialog.

BUT ... .negative emotions, dismissive, silent treatments, ugliness.

Tired of all this... .really... .

[Determined1]

Yup mind reading is a special skill that we are expected to possess. Along with self-sacrificial needs, knowledge and prevention of all triggers and an endless supply of patience and understanding without the need to take care of ourselves. Yeah I also think that hanging onto the anger makes them feel powerful and in control since they have felt helpless and never had control before. Would you easily give that up if you were in that situation, despite it being for the greater good? I guess we are all expected to be like Sherlock Holmes in deciphering a whole story from minimal clues. Really tiring indeed.

[nightmoves]

or Columbo... .

OF course the ... ."one last question"... .does not do anything but amp up the rage... .

[formflier]

 

Full confessions here... ."I'm going to stop talking about this"... used to trigger me... .

Of course she wouldn't stop... .