Is hitting a kid with a belt discipline or abuse?

[Ziggiddy]

When I was pregnant with my first child I recall whispering to myself that I would never hit her with a belt to discipline her.

I didn't ask myself why I thought this because at the time I would have described my childhood as 'golden' and my parents as 'progressive.'

Now since I am aware of the depth of the dysfunction and the mind-numbed codependency I had with uBPDm, I understand that when I was pregnant, I thought of this punishment as barbaric.

I go even further now that I have done analysis and trauma work and call it abuse.

My husband as well as many of my friends all say that they were struck with a belt for punishment. They don't feel it was unnecessary or undue.

I am not sure what I would call what happened to them as I would not presume to judge for them but what happened to me was very much more extensive than that. To my brother, the family scapegoat, even worse.

Now today after a lot of emotional work I accidentally came across a clip of a man belting his daughter.

The effect on me has been overwhelming.

I have raged and grieved and am now stuck in nausea.

I don't know whether it is the content (I abhor violence and won't even watch 'violent' cartoons etc) or a triggered reaction to having been punished and/disapproved.

As I have difficulty in ascertaining what is 'normal' or 'usual' I am appealing here to find out what is construed to be abuse as versus punishment.

Is getting struck with a belt normal discipline or do you feel it is more than that?

I would be grateful for any comments/reviews. I am unable to work this one out on my own.

Thanks

Ziggiddy

[Kwamina]

Now today after a lot of emotional work I accidentally came across a clip of a man belting his daughter.

The effect on me has been overwhelming.

I have raged and grieved and am now stuck in nausea.

I don't know whether it is the content (I abhor violence and won't even watch 'violent' cartoons etc) or a triggered reaction to having been punished and/disapproved.

As I have difficulty in ascertaining what is 'normal' or 'usual' I am appealing here to find out what is construed to be abuse as versus punishment.

Is getting struck with a belt normal discipline or do you feel it is more than that?

Hi Ziggidy,

I am sorry that this video made you feel this way. Considering that you were subjected to this form of abuse yourself, it's understandable that seeing this can have this effect on you. I labelled it as abuse so that already answers how I view hitting a child with a belt. I think once you know better, you hopefully will do better and use different ways to discipline kids. This is a difficult subject though because I also realize many people were raised in an environment where it was 'normal' to discipline kids like this. However, when BPD comes into play it's often more than just disciplining a child but more like an adult taking his/her frustrations out on a helpless child who has no way of defending his or herself.

Did both of your parents hit you with a belt when you were a child? Do you feel like when it happened that they were actually disciplining your for something they perceived you had done wrong? Or was it more like they were taking there frustrations out on you and possibly even enjoying it?

[Caredverymuch]

When I was pregnant with my first child I recall whispering to myself that I would never hit her with a belt to discipline her.

I didn't ask myself why I thought this because at the time I would have described my childhood as 'golden' and my parents as 'progressive.'

Now since I am aware of the depth of the dysfunction and the mind-numbed codependency I had with uBPDm, I understand that when I was pregnant, I thought of this punishment as barbaric.

I go even further now that I have done analysis and trauma work and call it abuse.

My husband as well as many of my friends all say that they were struck with a belt for punishment. They don't feel it was unnecessary or undue.

I am not sure what I would call what happened to them as I would not presume to judge for them but what happened to me was very much more extensive than that. To my brother, the family scapegoat, even worse.

Now today after a lot of emotional work I accidentally came across a clip of a man belting his daughter.

The effect on me has been overwhelming.

I have raged and grieved and am now stuck in nausea.

I don't know whether it is the content (I abhor violence and won't even watch 'violent' cartoons etc) or a triggered reaction to having been punished and/disapproved.

As I have difficulty in ascertaining what is 'normal' or 'usual' I am appealing here to find out what is construed to be abuse as versus punishment.

Is getting struck with a belt normal discipline or do you feel it is more than that?

I would be grateful for any comments/reviews. I am unable to work this one out on my own.

Thanks

Ziggiddy

Hitting anyone as a form of discipline is abuse. " Belting a child"? Even that term is appalling. I highly disagree with putting a hand on another in attempt to " teach" correct behavior.

[claudiaduffy]

I get flack for it whenever I answer questions like these, but here goes:

My dad spanked me with a belt a few times as a young child (older than toddler, younger than middle school.) It was never more than a few licks, which stung but did not leave welts even on my sensitive skin, and was done soberly, without verbal abuse or shaming, and done purposefully to give a lasting reminder of the very serious nature of something that I had done that either had endangered myself or another living being. I actually remember him discussing with me that the next time I wanted to do ____ or wanted to ignore his warning call about _____ that I needed to remember how the spanking hurt and think twice before going with whatever the particular destructive impulse was. And this worked for me. I remember being able to master my impulses as a rather young kid, NOT out of fear of spanking, but with the added memory that it was a very, very serious thing that I'd been spanked over.

For clarity, the kinds of events I'm talking about are things like me not stopping when my father called to me to "stop" when I was leading a younger sibling directly toward a poisonous snake neither of us could see, or running into a road without noticing a car, or some other situation where I was disobeying his directions in a moment that could have permanent implications. What I needed to learn was instant obedience for my own sake and those of others, and my refusal to do so nearly got myself or others severely hurt or killed. This was after my first several years of being trained to instant obedience by other gentler methods. But I was a willful kid who kept deciding to see how much I could get away with. I remember the inner struggle to remember that I really must submit to my dad's warnings and instructions - which were not onerous, really - and those rare spankings did help me. I am glad - for my own sake - that he carefully got through to me in a way that worked. Now, I don't think that this is necessary for most children, and I doubt that the majority of parents could use spanking as carefully and respectfully as my dad did. But I believe I am a better self-controlled person - and am still alive - because he used it in this way with me.

This was completely different from my uBPDmom's spankings, done by her hand (or occasionally a hairbrush), which didn't hurt much, were done in anger and with abusive words, and were obvious to me, even as a child, as ridiculous displays of her own emotions out of control.

[funfunctional]

Yes.   It is abuse.   WE are under the misfortune of having a previous time or generation not so far in the past that felt it was perfectly okay.    I see many well behaved children from families that never hit.  I don't hit my kids.   I talk to them and there are other methods of parenting that require more thought process and staying in control. 

That's all I have to say.   I was hit as a child not often but I remember when I was and it was awful.

[Louise7777]

In some countries, people go to jail for this. So yes, it is abuse. Was considered normal in the past, but not anymore.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Ziggiddy,

I am sorry for the emotional struggle you are in from having seen this clip. I feel sad for your pain.

My brother tells me that our dad used the belt on us both. I've asked if he was sure and did I have the belt used on me too and he always says yes, that he remembers it. I do not. I get close with one foggy memory, begging my dad to stop as I recall him pulling his belt off. I have blocked the rest, for now at least.  Interestingly enough, my dad told me this summer of his childhood when the belt was used on him, and in tears he said there was never any positive result that could come from such 'discipline.'

I didn't ask myself why I thought this because at the time I would have described my childhood as 'golden' and my parents as 'progressive.'

When I tried to figure out if I was 'abused' or not, I asked those with whom I felt safe what their definition of abuse would be. Here are some of the answers I was given:

1. Discipline is correction for the child's benefit. Abuse is discipline for your own benefit or personal gratification/satisfaction.

2. Discipline means to teach. Discipline should not take place with angry teachers.

3. Abuse is an attack to your identity or anything that would damage your identity.

4. Abuse is anything that leaves its mark.

And somewhat related regarding trauma: one thing that intensifies trauma is how far it deviates from God's holiness.

I've struggled with something similar recently, trying to distinguish if my uBPDm's 'spanking' was punishment, abuse, or discipline. When I realize how angry she was in one of my flashbacks I had 2 weeks ago, how she just kept spanking me over and over in her anger, I finally realized that she was abusing me physically and emotionally/verbally as she yelled and berated me while she spanked me, holding my arm so I could not get away. Her 'spanking' was hitting my buttocks with her hand as hard as she could.

Sometimes for me it feels safer to not admit that something is abuse than it does to admit that it was abuse. To admit that something is abuse feels less protected and feels more threatening, probably because then I get closer to acknowledging this is what happened to me.

Wools

[Compassion14]

Abuse - no other word for it.

[pessim-optimist]

My husband as well as many of my friends all say that they were struck with a belt for punishment. They don't feel it was unnecessary or undue.

... .what happened to me was very much more extensive than that. To my brother, the family scapegoat, even worse.

Now today after a lot of emotional work I accidentally came across a clip of a man belting his daughter.

The effect on me has been overwhelming.

I have raged and grieved and am now stuck in nausea.

From your reaction, I don't have any doubt that what you went through was abuse.

I am so sorry Ziggiddy, that you had to go through that... .

As I have difficulty in ascertaining what is 'normal' or 'usual' I am appealing here to find out what is construed to be abuse as versus punishment.

Is getting struck with a belt normal discipline or do you feel it is more than that?

I would be grateful for any comments/reviews. I am unable to work this one out on my own.

As you can see from the responses from your husband, friends and people on this board, the idea of spanking in general is controversial, and you will get different answers based on what people believe. Some people believe that any striking/hitting is abuse, some don't.

However, even those who believe that it is appropriate to discipline in this way will say that it's extremely important how it is done. I really like claudiaduffy's description of her father and fully agree with her that:

I doubt that the majority of parents could use spanking as carefully and respectfully as my dad did.

So, the bottom line in my opinion would be: if a parent can't do it that way, they shouldn't do it at all, as they are likely to be abusive otherwise.

I suspect that the "wrong way" is the way most people experience it and that's a shame.

[big ang]

I would consider it abuse. If you hit another adult with a belt it would be considered assault which is against the law.  There are much more effective ways to discipline children. I do not believe discipline should be violent or involve fear/intimidation.

[MyLifeNow]

I'll always consider it abuse since people who do hit their children seem to present the hitting as being less serious than it was. Nobody ever admits to spanking and then says that they were being abusive. I was never hit with a belt... ."just" an open hand. But being spanked always involved being hit so hard that the wind was knocked out of me. At which point I would get screamed at even more for "acting". Literally screamed at, to the point where his vocal cords would be strained. To this day dad will tell people that he spanked me and that it was "just a tap". If he had hit another adult with the amount of force that he used on me he would have gone to prison and stayed there for a long time.

And this was just with a hand. Using a weapon (a belt would basically be a whip) would make the pain even more severe.

[Ziggiddy]

Wow. Thanks for this guys. I really appreciate your input.

Very clarifying.

Claudia that was a very clear description of your father trying to teach you something.

My husband relates a similar experience. It was short and sharp and he feels he was insolent and it was his dad's only means of getting him back from further trouble. It was also a rare occurrence.

I applaud your courage and it helped me really think about what was actually going on when I got strapped. it certainly did not seem to be to prevent me from going into dangerous situations. In fact I thought and thought about what I was supposed to be learning from it and I am having an emotional/mental block trying to remember what I did to provoke most of them. The only ones I remember clearly were 1) because I forgot to turn the pot of stew for dinner on and 2) for wetting the bed.

funfunctional - I get what you are saying. I guess I never wanted to strap my kids but I admit that in the early years when I thought my mother was the be-all and end-all of parenting I did use smacking as a discipline. I will add that I used cloth nappies and and smacked one of them on the bottom on top of two layers of nappy for trying repeatedly to get into a bath I was filling. i still feel overwhelming guilt about it.

Louise and Big Ang - very interesting parallel.

I thought about that aspect for quite a while last night: what would I do if I saw a parent doing that to a child or even an adult doing it to another adult. It was a horrifying thought when juxtaposed like that.

1. Discipline is correction for the child's benefit. Abuse is discipline for your own benefit or personal gratification/satisfaction.

2. Discipline means to teach. Discipline should not take place with angry teachers.

3. Abuse is an attack to your identity or anything that would damage your identity.

4. Abuse is anything that leaves its mark.

I've struggled with something similar recently, trying to distinguish if my uBPDm's 'spanking' was punishment, abuse, or discipline. When I realize how angry she was in one of my flashbacks I had 2 weeks ago, how she just kept spanking me over and over in her anger, I finally realized that she was abusing me physically and emotionally/verbally as she yelled and berated me while she spanked me, holding my arm so I could not get away. Her 'spanking' was hitting my buttocks with her hand as hard as she could.

Sometimes for me it feels safer to not admit that something is abuse than it does to admit that it was abuse. To admit that something is abuse feels less protected and feels more threatening, probably because then I get closer to acknowledging this is what happened to me.

Wools

oh Wools - your reply chilled me in oh so many ways.

Thank you for your sympathy and support - it really helps.

I know you are struggling with your CPTSD and I admire your courage in going on with your trauma work.

Excellent excellent points to help discern the differences.

Your experience that you relate about the out of control spanking ... .oh my. oh my oh my. Awful.

I especially was struck by your point about not admitting that it was abuse. It's like a protection for the psyche isn't it?

Pessimism optimism. <Breathe> Your reply brought more tears to my eyes. And I think you are on the money. Working deductively, if it provoked that kind of horror in me it must be abuse. <Breathe>

What a thing to take in.

Mylifenow ... .I relate to the screaming ... .and I recall being called "SCHEWPID!" over and over. <Breathe> heart clenching up at your description there ... ..

And Kwamina.

How many times I tried to type out a reply to your response last night. Words failed me.

As always you are so perceptive and ask the incisive questions that help me with self insight.

However, when BPD comes into play it's often more than just disciplining a child but more like an adult taking his/her frustrations out on a helpless child who has no way of defending his or herself.

Did both of your parents hit you with a belt when you were a child? Do you feel like when it happened that they were actually disciplining your for something they perceived you had done wrong? Or was it more like they were taking there frustrations out on you and possibly even enjoying it?

Yes. both my parents. Over and over. My dad engaged by more than offences against him  - he was and is my mum's henchman for dirty work.

I thought for literally HOURS on whether it was something that they perceived I had done wrong. It took so much effort to  understand and admit that it was not for teaching a principle, it was in retribution for doing something they didn't like. or even as mum once told me about the most vicious attack 'Oh. Because I had a bad day that day."

About the teaching a principle - I mean they were not teaching me not to tell lies, they were 'teaching' me not to lie to THEM.

They were not teaching me to remember to not leave my shoes at the oval, they were teaching me that the shoes cost a lot of money and I didn't care about the effort they went to to buy me nice shoes.

Does that make sense?

And you are SO correct about the influence of the BPD.

I can really see it in a way I didn't yesterday.

Did they enjoy it? Now there's a tricky one. I can't see past my horror to tell.

Although ... .I do recall my mum getting my dad to whack the living crap out of me in front of HER mum (whom I had disobeyed)

I must have been 4 or 5 and I recall seeing my mum watching my nan hoping for approval for 'attending to business' and this mad hyper aroused look in my nan's eyes ... .which now ... .Lord... .you know what? it seemed almost like sexual arousal? Wow. Can that be right?

I'm overwhelmed by this.

Thank you for helping me to this insight.

Ziggiddy