Addressing Past Rage Incident with uBPD Sister

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi All, I posted on here in August about a terrible lash out from my sister when she was in town visiting with her family.  The visit was so traumatic that it left me depressed and I finally started resorting to medium chill with her.  In fact, I didn't even reach out to her at all other than to wish her a happy birthday.  After not reaching out to her, she calls me and text messages me.  Anyway, she has started reaching out to me more and more to just talk and acted like nothing happened.   I told her via text that we needed to discuss at some point what happened during her visit.  She agreed but said that she wasn't looking forward to it.  I can't say I am looking forward to it either.  But I don't want to be receiving phone calls from her to just talk or acting as if we are friends without addressing the elephant in the room.  As you can imagine, I have zero trust after the last incident.  So, I guess I need advice on how to approach this conversation.  I really feel she owes me an apology.  Will that happen, probably not.  Otherwise, she would have apologized by now is my feeling.  So, what do I say, how do I direct the conversation?  I just can't invest anything in a relationship with a person who treats me like crap and then wants to act all friendly.  And so I feel that there must be some kind of clearing of the air. 

[Change2014]

Hi All, I posted on here in August about a terrible lash out from my sister when she was in town visiting with her family.  The visit was so traumatic that it left me depressed and I finally started resorting to medium chill with her.  In fact, I didn't even reach out to her at all other than to wish her a happy birthday.  After not reaching out to her, she calls me and text messages me.  Anyway, she has started reaching out to me more and more to just talk and acted like nothing happened.   I told her via text that we needed to discuss at some point what happened during her visit.  She agreed but said that she wasn't looking forward to it.  I can't say I am looking forward to it either.  But I don't want to be receiving phone calls from her to just talk or acting as if we are friends without addressing the elephant in the room.  As you can imagine, I have zero trust after the last incident.  So, I guess I need advice on how to approach this conversation.  I really feel she owes me an apology.  Will that happen, probably not.  Otherwise, she would have apologized by now is my feeling.  So, what do I say, how do I direct the conversation?  I just can't invest anything in a relationship with a person who treats me like crap and then wants to act all friendly.  And so I feel that there must be some kind of clearing of the air. 

[estelithil]

Hrm... .I think if I tried to confront my uBPD mum about a rag eincident that it wouldn;t go well and would turn into another rage incident. She doesn't have the capacity to recognise fault in herself and would most likely manipulate me into thinking it was all my own fault for pushing her or something similar.

Is there any way you could move on from this without trying to reconcile with her? Do you think your sister would react in a similar way to what I have described above?

[Kwamina]

Hi All, I posted on here in August about a terrible lash out from my sister when she was in town visiting with her family.  The visit was so traumatic that it left me depressed and I finally started resorting to medium chill with her.

Hi Change2014,

I remember your post from august very well. You described a drama filled visit. These kind of interactions can have a huge effect on you. I too know what it's like to feel depressed after some extreme BPD behavior from my own uBPD relatives. It's good though that you decided to look out for your own well-being and resorted to medium chill with your sister. Having clear boundaries and being firm about them when needed is very important when dealing with people with BPD. Unfortunately they won't always respect boundaries as you are experiencing now with your sister. When exactly did your sister started reaching out to you more and more? Did anything specific happen, was it perhaps after you wished her happy birthday?

I can totally see why you have so little trust in her, not only after the last incident but considering the entire history of incidents.

I just can't invest anything in a relationship with a person who treats me like crap and then wants to act all friendly.  And so I feel that there must be some kind of clearing of the air.

You've basically quite clearly stated your boundary right here and how you want to enforce your boundary. You want to be treated with respect and when a person doesn't do that, you don't want to invest in that relationship. As far as clearing the air, would you at this point want to have a closer relationship with your sister? Has she in the past ever apologized for the way she treated you and if so, did her behavior improve after that or was it just more of the same? To determine how you want to move forward I suggest you closely take a look at your past history with your sister and if there are any indications that anything would be different this time around.

[goingtostopthis]

Kwamina,   Your advise is good and sound, for I have been struggling with the same sort of thing.

                                                     There was a big episode between my sister and my mother where they went so far as to tell me I had to leave. Telling me I had to go ,  with them both knowing, I had no where else to go, no money or means to leave even if I wanted to. It was shocking hearing this coming from family members. It really dissapointed me and shattered a basic family trust of love I thought was there for all times. It took me awhile to realize that my mother was under the spell of my sister since they have both lived together for years and my sister has all ways been the ruling one over my mother.

                                                  I got myself a counselor and pulled myself together as best I could and all they did was start pretending the whole scene never happened. My mother keeps flip flopping between admitting my sister has a problem and being frustrated by it as I have,  to totally being in denial about her as if nothing  is wrong with her at all.

             I decided to just move on from it. They have all ready demonstrated to me that they are not interested in coping with the reality of how they were treating me. It was a horror show for me. I guess they can just block it out and go on with their daily business and pretend it never happened. Ive come to accept that my mother cant really cope with the truth about my sister. Its all most as if it is just too far over her head to deal with, so she pretends.

    =There's a part of me now that is afraid of sister. She can be really mean for no reason. She does weird things I dont understand.  The other day she had her friend over here and we were out of T-paper. I was using a box of tissues in my bathroom until I went to the store, but I hardly have any money now since I just moved here and am looking for a job. I could manage this how ever,I just hadnt gone to the store yet. Im the only one living here. Well, she called to me because her friend wanted to use the other bathroom which was out of t-paper too. I said to her, "Ok!  hang on, I have a box of tissues she can use, I bring it to you,ok?" At that moment she gave me one of the dirtiest looks Ive ever seen, her whole face contorted like she was smelling dog do do.  and then she turned and abruptly walked away while I was in mid sentence, as if I wasnt even there anymore.   She only acts awful like this to me when she is around this friend. So I confronted her later that day about he incident. (nicely as I could) I just asked her why did she look at me that way?   She denied it meaning anything at all and acted all innocent about it.

                                                                                         What ever!  it wasnt innocent but I doubt she will try this on me again because she been doing it quite often and mostly when she's with this friend. I showed her that I had caught on to this and that its in my awareness now and that I am no longer going to allow this to pass me by. If I were to define it ,Id call it ugly toxic behavior with the aim to shame base. and WOW!   does that say a lot about what's going on with her and what she's feeling and trying to transfer onto me. Im not going to expect her to change who she is, she wont ever apologize to me for treating me badly, her self image wont allow it, shes really struggleing with something emotionally and my mother doesnt have the sense to tell her to get into counseling. Actually she needs to see a psychiatrist but that will never happen. What's important is that I take care of myself and tactfully stand up to her to show her where my boundaries are. You know, like saying: "Hey! wait a minute, What did you say?"  or, Im not sure I understood you?  What did mean?  Im not allowing her to get away with this weird stuff anymore.   She needs to take care of her own problems and stop dumping them on me.  As the saying goes,  you teach people how  to treat you. I know it sounds easier said then done,  but we all have to start some where even if it means leaving the past trama they caused behind, we can forgive but we wont forget.                             

[Kwamina]

As the saying goes,  you teach people how  to treat you. I know it sounds easier said then done,  but we all have to start some where even if it means leaving the past trama they caused behind, we can forgive but we wont forget.                  

This piece of advice you've been given by goingtostopthis is exactly right It's related to the following statements about defending your boundaries:

Even when we live our values responsibly, we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves. Counter-intuitive, I know.

Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  Do we need to change one?

Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  Do we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

[rehtorb70]

As you can imagine, I have zero trust after the last incident.  So, I guess I need advice on how to approach this conversation.  I really feel she owes me an apology.  Will that happen, probably not.  Otherwise, she would have apologized by now is my feeling.  So, what do I say, how do I direct the conversation? 

The main thing is that you will never ever convince her that she misbehaved.  So there is no point in seeking an apology or even trying to explain why what she did was wrong or inappropriate.  It's impossible to reason with unreasonable people.

If you continue to interact with her, she will continue to misbehave so you just need to decide if you can live with it or not.  The only exception to this is if you have some kind of power over her, which is unlikely since you are siblings.  If you have power over her, then you can keep in her line by politely explaining that there will be immediate negative consequences for misbehavior and honoring your threat if necessary.  Even then she will constantly be testing her limits and playing games.

I just can't invest anything in a relationship with a person who treats me like crap and then wants to act all friendly.

Then blow her off.  It's been years since I've had a conversation with my sister.  I prefer not to deal with the inevitable drama, emotional blackmail, manipulation, lies, and head games.

[Change2014]

Thank you for your replies.

estelithil, I am not sure how my sister will react.  I would say historically she would be very defensive.  However, I have learned through family that she is now seeing a therapist.  So, you could say I have a glimmer of hope.  I would hope for an apology, but I am not expecting one.  I think that it is the elephant in the room though that needs to be addressed.  She said it needed to be addressed too, but that she wasn't looking forward to it.  Not quite sure what that means.  Anyway, I guess I should keep low expectations.  I just wondered if anyone had any communication ideas that I could use.  I understand the whole concept of not JADEing but I wondered if there was any suggestion on how to start/frame the discussion.  We both are fully aware that it needs to happen.

Thanks Kwamina, you raise a lot of good questions.  My sister started reaching out a few weeks later after her visit to wish my son a happy birthday... .he turned one.  I think she probably felt a bit sad because she couldn't be there and saw all the pictures on Facebook.  I think she also genuinely cares for my son.  Then we skyped a month later to wish her a happy birthday.  Both interactions were in front of other people as well.  What felt unusual was when she started calling me just to talk one-on-one and discussing what was going on in her life, etc.  It had a more intimate feeling and it made me on guard because of the huge blow-up.  The birthday stuff I view as pleasantries, but calling to just chat assumes a level of closeness.  I did not call her at all otherwise and have not called her.  Just a text here and there to find out what her kids wanted for birthdays, etc.  I don't call to chat.  I am hopeful that she is in a more mature place because of starting therapy, but I know I shouldn't expect much.  I found myself getting drawn into these casual chats and sharing with her and it made me feel vulnerable and like I didn't want to talk to someone who is only going to rip my head off later or tell me how awful I was in the past, etc. etc.  So, I guess my boundary is, if she wants to just chat, then the elephant in the room needs to be addressed in some fashion.  So, I guess I want to give her a chance because she has been reaching out and because she has sought therapy, which is a huge milestone.  If I look at past history, the outcome doesn't look positive.  The one difference is that she is in therapy and although I don't expect a huge turnaround, I am hopeful for a least a tiny opening of improvement.  I want to have a discussion with her that avoids getting heated and I guess I should just be prepared for her to lay blame on me and I need to not engage if that occurs.  I can tell her I am sorry that she feels that way and that I respectfully disagree.  Maybe the key is stay calm and not start going on a defensive path.  I'll keep you posted when it happens... .Now it is just a matter of timing as I think I need to wait until after Thanksgiving... .

[Kwamina]

If I look at past history, the outcome doesn't look positive.  The one difference is that she is in therapy and although I don't expect a huge turnaround, I am hopeful for a least a tiny opening of improvement.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior so it probably is best to be weary, take things slow and stick to your boundaries. But you also point out a significant change in her behavior, she's in therapy now. That is indeed a huge milestone.

You are hopeful that she is in a more mature place now as a result of starting therapy and add that you know you shouldn't expect much. To protect yourself it probably is still best to lower your expectations/not get your hopes up, but her being in therapy potentially could lead to some positive effects. Time will tell.

Do you feel like her reaching out to you like this is a result of her therapy or more like it's a tactic of hers to get close to you? Has she ever done this before, contacting you in this one-to-one manner with a more intimate feeling to it? (Particularly after extremely misbehaving towards you.) Would you say reaching out like this after misbehaving is an old pattern of hers or really something new?

[Change2014]

Hi Kwamina, I am thinking this is probably recycled behavior to some extent.  My uBPD mom has a tendency to rage and then act like nothing happened, so I would say this is the same thing with my sister.  It is like she rages, stews, and then goes back to "normal."  She seems to be making an extra effort this time by making a point to thank me for her birthday gift and she even left a voicemail apologizing because one day when she called to chat she got frustrated because her kids were acting up.  She kinda snapped on the phone a little bit and then she backed down.  She went out of her way to call and apologize.  She doesn't handle stress well.  That is a definite change in behavior.  Anyway, I think she may be influenced a bit by her therapy because she seems more self-aware.  I know she wants to be close, I think she just has such unreal expectations of what she thinks I am supposed to do, say, think, and feel.  I think she is also realizing that a bad relationship with me means little relationship amongst the cousins.  That is not something I want, but I will not tolerate being treated like garbage just so that the cousins have a relationship.  I think she is realizing that I have boundaries for once in my life. 

[Verbena]

Change 2014, what exactly happened back in August?  I'm not familiar with your story.  I do agree with others that you will never get an apology, not a real one anyway.  It's just part of the illness.  Their reality is skewed. 

I know some say videoing or recording rages is a big mistake, yet some here have done it and say it stops the raging. Was raging part of what happened a few months ago?   I have wanted "evidence" so many times with my DD29 (who is doing better I think) and my H who doesn't actually fit BPD criteria, but is the most angry, miserable person I have ever known.  My daughter re-writes history and my husband simply "doesn't remember" his behavior or thinks I am making it all up.  I still think if they could watch themselves, it could be a breakthrough for them both.   

[pessim-optimist]

Hello Change2014,

I have read this thread and also the one from August... .

Since you and your sister have agreed that you need to have this talk, it's probably going to happen at some point.

What would be your goals for this conversation, ideally, what specific issues/behaviors do you want to address?

How realistic do you think those goals are (do you need to adjust them)?

Also, how do you think your sister perceives the whole event?

[Change2014]

Hi Verbena, so in a nutshell my sister came down with her whole family and visited for 2 weeks.  She doesn't stay with me but the visits are traumatic nonetheless because she basically expects me to be available 24-7, cater to every whim, and there is always something that she finds fault with every single time and it is usually a laundry list.  This has been the pattern for the past 4 years.  Sometimes I don't even know about my alleged offenses until much later, and sometimes she flips out to me while she is here.  This last time she raged at me and when I left to leave because I didn't feel comfortable being raged at alone with my infant son, she followed me and told me go *&^* myself.  This was two days before my husband was the godfather at her son's baptism.  I never said a mean word to her, didn't call her names, nothing.  I didn't engage at all.  I simply said I didn't want to fight and that I needed to leave.  Anyway, it was terrible... .it left me feeling depressed for weeks and disrupts my own family.  After that I have gone medium chill and she wants to increase our level of closeness, which makes me uncomfortable.  I told her that we need to discuss what happened between us. 

Like you, I have so many times wanted to record my sister and mother.  That way they can't twist words and accuse me of making stuff up.  Thankfully, my new approach of having boundaries and not engaging in JADE is helping and I refuse to be present for anymore rages.  I don't want to be around to record them.  I can't rationalize with them. 

[Change2014]

Hi pessim-optimist, thank for your response.  You ask very good questions.  The specific behavior that I think I want to address first and foremost is her following me as I was leaving and telling me to go f--- myself while holding my son.  I need to discuss with her that if I need to leave for whatever reason, that she needs to respect that.  So, I guess maybe get her to accept time-outs.  The other specific behavior I would like to address is her involvement of her husband in the incident, which I did not appreciate at all and creates discomfort and tension between me and her spouse.  I wish I could address more, but I think those two things are enough of a tackle.  LOL.  I am not sure how realistic this is.  I think the first one is at least achievable.  As far as her perception of the event... .I think that she perceives that I don't care about her needs and that I should have not walked away.  I think she also perceives that I somehow involved her children because I was not present to do a formal goodbye to her family after the rage incident.  So, I think she perceives that I hurt her children which is a smokescreen.  She tried to use that when I walked away, saying that her kids didn't understand why I was leaving.  It was an attempt at manipulating me to stay.  I was supposed to stay and accept the abuse.  Now, I am not sure if she still perceives all of these things since starting therapy.  And I have no idea if she has discussed our relationship with her therapist.  That is why I think the best course of action is for us to plan a date/time to talk so that both parties know are mentally prepared and she will have time to collect her thoughts and discuss it through with her therapist beforehand if she would like.  I am going to wait until after Thanksgiving.  No sense spoiling the holiday if it spirals.  I plan on not letting it spiral though and if it is not a civil discussion, then I need to just disengage and take a time-out. 

[pessim-optimist]

The specific behavior that I think I want to address first and foremost is her following me as I was leaving and telling me to go f--- myself while holding my son.  I need to discuss with her that if I need to leave for whatever reason, that she needs to respect that.  So, I guess maybe get her to accept time-outs.

Ok, so both of these are basically boundary issues. One is name-calling, and one is heated discussions that make you uncomfortable. Your boundary is - when this is happening, you leave the situation (that is your right).

You can definitely go about setting your boundaries with confidence whether your sister will like and/or accept them or not.

For better chance of success with the conversation, you can "suit up" with the following tools: Validation, S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth), DEARMAN DEAR (Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce) is particularly useful when you are "selling" a boundary addressing a past event that you didn't like; and it always helps using "I" statements rather than "you" statements.

The other specific behavior I would like to address is her involvement of her husband in the incident, which I did not appreciate at all and creates discomfort and tension between me and her spouse.  I wish I could address more, but I think those two things are enough of a tackle.  LOL.  I am not sure how realistic this is.

In my personal experience, involving others is something that pwBPD tend to do, plus if she knows/finds out that that is your hot button, she will tend to do that even more.

I am not sure if there is a way to stop this, though (maybe others will have some good advice about this point)... .

I think overall, you have a good plan - waiting until after Thanksgiving, giving her an opportunity to discuss this with a therapist, etc. I would be prepared to validate her feelings about what happened in the summer, even if you disagree with her version of what happened.

[Change2014]

Thank you pessim-optimist!  These are really helpful tools.  I will keep you posted on how it goes once I talk to my sister.  Again, thank you!

[Change2014]

Well, I had the conversation with good intentions and the conversation went south.  I really only got as far as requesting that she respect my requests to take time-outs when discussions are heated and that I thought it would help both of us calm down.  She was very frustrated on narrowing the conversation at that.  She wanted to go everywhere and beyond and talking about how I affected her children.  Everything was about her children's feelings, not really her feelings.  She managed to say that she doesn't like me, she thinks I am a jerk, that I am selfish and self-centered, and that she realized that her kids are not missing out if they don't have a relationship with me.  Really hurtful stuff.  I was doing pretty well staying calm and then the way she said so coldly how her kids aren't missing anything just really hurt.  My sister just can't stand me.  And there is nothing I can do and I have to accept that it will always be that way.  I just don't want to hear it... .it is too painful.  And so I lost my cool a bit.  I didn't flip out, but I gave her enough ammo to hang the phone up on me or justify it in her head.  She is upset that I "picked" this time to talk before Christmas.  I said it was worth a try to talk about it.  I offered to talk about it with a third party (i.e. therapist), but she said she doesn't care.  Anyway, I won't chalk this up to a total loss since the conversation did go better than many conversations in the past.  I guess this just confirms what I suspected... .that she can't stand me.  And I don't think it is ever going to change.  It is difficult because there are kids involved and I feel like I am not under a duty to put up with her garbage at all costs under the guise of the kids.  It is like they are her shield.  It is so manipulative, yet I am the bad guy who supposedly doesn't care about her kids.  Sigh.  Anyway, I appreciate all of your input and I think I was a lot more focused on what I wanted out the conversation and how to approach it by talking it out here.  Thank you.