different day same story just pushing the kids further away

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

We had our first court ordered co parent counseling meeting yesterday. During the meeting ex asked if I could take S11 to school the next day (today) instead of dropping him off at her place like usual. She said she had to be in work early. I said yes. Well, this morning I dropped S16 off at school as usual and went to ex's residence to drop off S11. It was early and that was my normal routine so I was just going on automatic pilot. I drove up to her place and I noticed her car and didn't think twice about it. S11 then reminded me, in a joking way, that I was not supposed to drop him off. I had told him the night about the change in plans. We laughed and I turned around and we went out for breakfast since he hadn't eaten and we had a little over a hour.

We were sitting down eating when my phone rang. I didn't check the caller ID ( I almost always do ) and answered the phone. It was ex and she wanted to talk to S11. I handed him the phone. She spoke for a very short time. S11 said it was fine and said goodbye. S11 then begins to tell me that mom just wanted to let him know that she had to go to work early and was getting dressed now. Whatever. We finished and S11 asked if we could stop at his mom's because he had some things in the car he wanted to drop off since he would be at his moms the next two days. It was on the way so I figured it would be no big deal if she already left. We arrived and her car was still in the same spot.

S11 grabbed his stuff and went to the door. He came back about a minute later and asked to use my cell phone. He called and no one answered. He left a message as he got in the car. We then drove to school. S11 said he really doesn't understand "why mom has to lie about everything". He sounded a little disappointed but he is coming to accept it for what it is. I really didn't have much to say about it and we talked about other things. We arrived at school and as usual, when I drop him off, he tries to get out of the car before I can catch him and give him a hug and a kiss. He always has a big smile on his face when I catch him so I guess I'll keep doing it until he doesn't like it.

[david]

We had our first court ordered co parent counseling meeting yesterday. During the meeting ex asked if I could take S11 to school the next day (today) instead of dropping him off at her place like usual. She said she had to be in work early. I said yes. Well, this morning I dropped S16 off at school as usual and went to ex's residence to drop off S11. It was early and that was my normal routine so I was just going on automatic pilot. I drove up to her place and I noticed her car and didn't think twice about it. S11 then reminded me, in a joking way, that I was not supposed to drop him off. I had told him the night about the change in plans. We laughed and I turned around and we went out for breakfast since he hadn't eaten and we had a little over a hour.

We were sitting down eating when my phone rang. I didn't check the caller ID ( I almost always do ) and answered the phone. It was ex and she wanted to talk to S11. I handed him the phone. She spoke for a very short time. S11 said it was fine and said goodbye. S11 then begins to tell me that mom just wanted to let him know that she had to go to work early and was getting dressed now. Whatever. We finished and S11 asked if we could stop at his mom's because he had some things in the car he wanted to drop off since he would be at his moms the next two days. It was on the way so I figured it would be no big deal if she already left. We arrived and her car was still in the same spot.

S11 grabbed his stuff and went to the door. He came back about a minute later and asked to use my cell phone. He called and no one answered. He left a message as he got in the car. We then drove to school. S11 said he really doesn't understand "why mom has to lie about everything". He sounded a little disappointed but he is coming to accept it for what it is. I really didn't have much to say about it and we talked about other things. We arrived at school and as usual, when I drop him off, he tries to get out of the car before I can catch him and give him a hug and a kiss. He always has a big smile on his face when I catch him so I guess I'll keep doing it until he doesn't like it.

[Waddams]

It sucks to see our kids go through the bu!sh!t and know we can't fix it or make it stop.  All we can do is be empathetic and be a better example to our kids.  When they get old enough to vote with their feet, the rubber will meet the road.

[david]

I hear that loud and clear. I have SS's. One has substance abuse issues and doesn't have anything to do with me. His other brothers and I get along great. One of them is NC with his mom and the other one is very low LC with her. Those two boys also have no relationship with their one brother. XBPDw enables the one with the substance issues and that does bother me but I realize there is nothing I could do.

Our oldest boy (S16) sees it very clearly and I see him following the same path as the two older brothers. S11 is starting to get a much clearer picture. It's funny, because S16 started seeing things around S11's age too so I can see what is probably going top happen later.

I used to try to figure out whether ex didn't get it or she did but couldn't help herself from such pushing away behavior. Back in 2008 or 2009 I tried to talk to her about it but that didn't work too well.

I post these kinds of things for the newbies because I think it helps them realize what they are dealing with and that others are there too.

We actually had our first court ordered co parent counseling meeting yesterday. The topic of S16 making a choice where he wants to live did come up. The counselor asked me about it and I said I realized that he could decide but that S16 doesn't know that. I also asked ex to not say anything because I don't like the idea of the two boys separating at this time. I think S11 still needs someone on his side when he is at his moms. I didn't say that at the meeting but I think the counselor got what I was saying between the lines. If ex does bring it up to S16 it will probably backfire on her since we are currently going through a custody hearing next month and the courts in my area do not like separating kids.

[Waddams]

My son is 10 and he's already seeing the BS with his mom too.  He tells me regularly he'd like to visit his mom but live with me.  I tell him I'll send you back to school, and he says while he likes "homeschooling" he'd still rather live with me overall.  To me that's powerful, because homeschooling is basically doing nothing at all with the way his mom does it.  (Time for my usual disclaimer - homeschooling not bad overall and can be very very good when done right.  My uPDxw's homeschooling method is bad though.)

I've never done anything except try to be supportive of everything between him and his mom.  The problem is she's unreasonable and makes no sense.  So when I'm telling him he has to respect his mom, her rules, and follow her direction when he's with her, he's thinking "but that leads to bad things for me, I'd rather be with you because you're not insane."  I just figure it's the least of evils for him to go along to get along at his age until he's old enough to make his choice and get out.  I've been on the receiving end of her anger and I don't want that for S10.  The biggest issue is S10 is stubborn, strong willed, and a bit hard headed (wonder where he gets that from - apple didn't fall far from his dad's tree in that regard).  I think sometimes, even at just 10, he decides he'd rather fight back instead of acquiesce.  The "f--- you!" attitude comes out, and then I hear all about it later.  I try to coach him through it to better reactions but there's a little inner voice that is saying "right on, S10!". 

I just hope I'm not letting my own feelings come through and egging things on.  Kids can pick up on those subtleties and will mimic it.  Which in some circumstances as an adult can be a good thing, but as a 10 year old when dealing with mom, or school teachers, etc., it turns out very bad!

[ForeverDad]

Well... .we do say to Validate... .  And sometimes validation is letting him set his own informed and perceptive boundaries - not regarding everything, with some judicious oversight and recognizing you don't have much influence on his choices while he's with the other parent - even if it ruffles some disordered feathers.

It's hard not to feel to some level, Right on!

[Nope]

Well... .we do say to Validate... .  And sometimes validation is letting him set his own informed and perceptive boundaries - not regarding everything, with some oversight and recognizing you don't have much influence on him while he's with the other parent - even if it ruffles some disordered feathers.

I agree with this. The most important thing is to not make him feel like his perceptions are wrong. Helping him to trust his perceptions will help him to trust you. If he grows up understanding that most people he meets will not be like his mother then he need not grow up distrusting and battling all authority.

[david]

My S11 gets lots of restorative agreements in school. Ra for short. They are a kind of demerit system. His teacher says he is no problem at all in class and is doing very well. He only gets them at lunch and recess. He claims that a specific lunch mother hates him and is the only one that is writing him up. I am currently getting copies of all of them to see if that is true or not. That will determine my course of action.

His most recent ra was for jumping off of the swing in the playground. He does the same with me so I can see his confusion. The others are for what is coming out of his mouth. He will stand his ground and refuses to budge when he thinks he is in the right. I really didn't make a big deal about it in the beginning of the year figuring he would figure it out.

From listening to him explain his side it sounds like the lunch mother is a proxy for his mom and that needs to be addressed.

[Boss302]

I've found the key is to validate with the kids that mom isn't doing this because of them - she's doing it because of HER. They have nothing to do with it. I relate it to cancer, heart disease, or some other kind of disease that people don't wish for but get anyway - BPD is really no different, in the final analysis. The symptoms are the difference.

[david]

I learned early on that validation is the key.

We had our first co parent counselor meeting last Monday. Ex blamed S11 and S16 and, of course, me for the problems she is having at her place with them. I stated that I was not having the same issues and gave a few examples of how smoothly things work between the kids and me.

We have another meeting this coming Monday and I have so much to bring up. I am prioritizing now and that is one of the issues I am going to introduce. I don't plan on saying validation but my examples will be showing the difference in our parenting style.

Ex has blamed S11 for poor performance in school ( invalidation) since he went to kindergarten. His first year he struggled and I tried getting him in a pre k program instead of kindergarten. I was overruled in court. He repeated kindergarten. Ex insisted he had a learning disabilty and had him tested the second year of kindergarten. The results were ambiguous but they gave him an IEP. I think mostly because ex was so insistent. By second grade the school figured ex out and I was able to achieve a lot behind the scenes. He was tested again and put in the accelerated program. He is in 5th grade now and recently received his state mandated tests from 4th grade. Ex said that S11 is doing a little better in school now but still struggles. She compared him to S16. According to her S16 is very bright and she believes S11 can't compare.

Well I went home and dug out S16's 4th grade state mandated tests. Surprise of all surprises (not really) but S11 scored significantly higher than his older brother in the science portion, slightly higher in math, and close to the same in the reading section. His weakness in the math section was in his spatial reasoning. S16 went to pre k and they built all kinds of things. They did all kinds of arts and crafts. S11 did not do that and still doesn't have the same skills as his older brother in that area. I honestly believe if he had that time when he was younger to develop in that area it would have helped his spatial reasoning today.