Why is detatchment/depersonalizing not invalidating?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Two things on my mind this morning (will create a separate thread for both).  First is, if we depersonalize, disengage, refuse to participate in their dysregulations, why is that action not invalidating and make the problem worse?

Suppose she is hopping mad about something that I have no control over, I see how absurd it is, depersonalize the garbage that she says to me - but her emotions say this is an end of the world kind of deal.  She *wants* me to feel what she feels.  She *wants* me to JADE.  If I don't JADE, doesn't it send her the message that her concern is no big deal, invalidating her emotions.

I know in those instances we are supposed to validate the underlying emotion - "I can see you are really upset by this" - but sometimes that works and other times she views this as patronizing and invalidating if I don't respond with the same level of intensity.

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

Two things on my mind this morning (will create a separate thread for both).  First is, if we depersonalize, disengage, refuse to participate in their dysregulations, why is that action not invalidating and make the problem worse?

Suppose she is hopping mad about something that I have no control over, I see how absurd it is, depersonalize the garbage that she says to me - but her emotions say this is an end of the world kind of deal.  She *wants* me to feel what she feels.  She *wants* me to JADE.  If I don't JADE, doesn't it send her the message that her concern is no big deal, invalidating her emotions.

I know in those instances we are supposed to validate the underlying emotion - "I can see you are really upset by this" - but sometimes that works and other times she views this as patronizing and invalidating if I don't respond with the same level of intensity.

Thoughts?

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[Jessica84]

Something I read about pwBPD was that not only do they feel emotions intensely, but they also don't like feeling emotionally out of control, so it's compounded. Emotions on top of emotions. That's why I don't see the tools as invalidating. Validating the feelings keeps them from spiraling into that awful out-of-control feeling. So while the first emotion is triggered, at least it is contained when we don't JADE or react so they don't feel so out of control.

Probably could've explained that better, but it makes sense in my own head.  

[MissyM]

I know in those instances we are supposed to validate the underlying emotion - "I can see you are really upset by this" - but sometimes that works and other times she views this as patronizing and invalidating if I don't respond with the same level of intensity.

I understand what  you are saying and my dBPDh has had that problem our entire marriage.  However, he now has a sponsor and therapist that he talks to and they help him put things in perspective.  I have to be detached because it isn't healthy for me to try and fix my dBPDh's emotions. As long as I am responding in and appropriate an validating manner, the rest is just not up to me. 

[maxsterling]

Jessica - that makes sense.  My fiancé describes the feeling as spiraling out of control, and sometimes suggest things to do to help stop the spiral.  So by not JADEing may be invalidating, but it also helps stop a bigger problem.  I think she wants and needs me to engage without escalating.  Tough to do. 

Missy -  That's what I would consider ideal, for her to use her resources for her emotional needs rather than dump them upon me.  Ideally, I think the best way to navigate this issue would be to validate that she is really upset, remain present with her rather than walk away from the abuse, persuade her that she is spiraling out of control, and suggest she use her resources to regain composure.  And then only walk away or take measures myself if she is unwilling to help herself. 

[Jessica84]

I actually see JADEing as not validating. If we're defending ourselves and arguing, we're not able to validate their feelings. We're explaining ours and negating theirs. Emotions on both sides escalate. And everything goes haywire.

By depersonalizing, we stop doing this. We don't feel the need to JADE when we recognize it isn't about us, it's about how they feel in the moment. Knowing this helps us stay calm enough to look for the emotions behind their words so we can validate them. Feeling understood and validated makes them feel the emotion less intensely. This is what keeps things from escalating and spiraling out of control.

It isn't easy at all to do when it's happening. It takes A LOT of practice and patience! But it does work.

[Olinda]

How do you validate and not JADE the following:

I am a failure. I'm an awful human being. I screw everything up. You would be better off without me. I'm no good for you. I shouldn't be here.

I have tried the: That is a terrible thing to feel, I'm sorry you feel that way.

But that is so repetitive. I couldn't handle it last night so I said: I can't listen to this bull___, stop saying these lies about yourself. I don't have the capacity right now to do this. I know, I know, completely invalidating.

Obviously,  I am slightly depressed and dysregulated myself. I am going to therapy next week to get myself back on track and out of this depression that I am feeling trying to be in this relationship. 

Does anyone else feel like you are the only one that the pBPD talks to or shares with and it is too much of a burden? I'm drowning here. 

[MissyM]

Ideally, I think the best way to navigate this issue would be to validate that she is really upset, remain present with her rather than walk away from the abuse, persuade her that she is spiraling out of control, and suggest she use her resources to regain composure.  And then only walk away or take measures myself if she is unwilling to help herself. 

I don't know that you can persuade her that she is spiraling out of control. You can use SET and the truth be that talking to her sponsor or other resources are a way to handle these issues.   I believe that when I try to fix my dBPDh's feelings, I am robbing him of an opportunity to handle it himself.  I can validate without trying to fix or control how he is feelings and whether he is spinning out of control.

[Jessica84]

How do you validate and not JADE the following:

I am a failure. I'm an awful human being. I screw everything up. You would be better off without me. I'm no good for you. I shouldn't be here.

I have tried the: That is a terrible thing to feel, I'm sorry you feel that way.

But that is so repetitive. I couldn't handle it last night so I said: I can't listen to this bull___, stop saying these lies about yourself. I don't have the capacity right now to do this. I know, I know, completely invalidating.

Obviously,  I am slightly depressed and dysregulated myself. I am going to therapy next week to get myself back on track and out of this depression that I am feeling trying to be in this relationship. 

Does anyone else feel like you are the only one that the pBPD talks to or shares with and it is too much of a burden? I'm drowning here. 

YES! All too familiar. And it does feel like a burden sometimes, always having to be the emotional adult. I don't know the best way to validate such awful feelings my BPDex has. Even validating with "I'm sorry you feel that way" seems to indicate that I don't see it that way so it still feels invalidating to him. But agreeing with him isn't validating either: "Yep, you're a failure and an awful human being who screws everything up."  Not that I would ever do that, but there is some truth to it. In some ways, they're right to feel the way they do. Makes the SE in SET easy because of the T. Many pwBPD destroy parts of their lives with their behaviors, but not on purpose. They don't know any other way to cope.

I really think all we can do is stop making it worse. Detach ourselves from their feelings, but still be supportive. No easy task for sure.

[MissyM]

Even validating with "I'm sorry you feel that way" seems to indicate that I don't see it that way so it still feels invalidating to him.

I say something like, "Wow, that must be awful.  I would feel sad and depressed if I felt that people thought that way of me.  I don't feel that way about you."  (hug and then I walk out)  This has been working because feeling like a failure is one of my dBPDh's issues.

[Olinda]

Now I've been told I'm controlling and cold because i set a boundary of not discussing things right now because i am too upset. I'm cold because I'm staying calm and not sobbing. Also because i went to sleep last night as if nothing was wrong.

I told her I'd be happy to talk in 1.5 hours about whatever is bothering her in a calm fashion.

And i left. First time I've set a boundary like this. Ben reading the book "stop caretaking". Highly recommended. So hard to implement.

The hardest part is giving up expecting her to meet at least some of my needs. I deserve a partner who can meet me halfway. Argh.

[Grey Kitty]

if we depersonalize, disengage, refuse to participate in their dysregulations, why is that action not invalidating and make the problem worse?

Invalidation is expressing something which tells them that their feelings are wrong.

When you do this, (i.e. JADE at them), you give them an excuse to lash out to you, which is their preferred emotional coping tool.

When you disengage, you are not telling in any way contradicting their feelings.

However, you ARE changing the rules for them in an uncomfortable way... .even though it isn't invalidating. Because you are depriving them of their preferred coping tool: Lashing out at you after you invalidate them.

Does this make sense?