Deflecting

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, use the Tools, use SET and Dearman and everything else you can come up with... . Pack your toolbox up nice and full.  The interesting thing about the Lessons and techniques learned here, is that we have to mean them.  We use them with an open heart and mind, to connect with ourselves, our values, our children, our SO's whether staying or leaving.  If we're closed off, they're not going to work because we're not being authentic.  Our body language speaks volumes, eye contact, tone of voice, fidgeting; we express ourselves in all kinds of ways.

Can you work the tools with your children's best interest at heart?  When it's about DD5's breakfast, keep the conversation on topic.

I feel like the only thing that I could have said was, "You are right. It didn't bother her so it wasn't a problem." If I would have tried to explain that she is 5 and waiting that long for food could have led her to melt down, then he would have referred back to the fact that she didn't have a problem with it. I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

And yes, I realize that I have hit a mental road block that I can't seem to get beyond.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I have that as well. I think his biggest mess up was when he tried to fix something in the attic. He was in a hurry and didn't watch his step so he stepped right through the ceiling. I still laugh at the whole thing. I know accidents happen but it was one of those things where I had it in the back of my mind that maybe he subconciously did it deliberately (is that even possible). I ended up going up into the attic and dealing with the repair myself.


I don't know if I'm doing the quote thing correctly, Vortex, but I love your story.

Just watching my husband sometimes when he feels expected (by me) to do something, it seems like he gets kind of frantic and angry and doesn't pay much attention to what he's doing. I wish he could just slow down when he gets anxious and do things "mindfully" like the Buddhists teach.

We recently built a garage and his truck is a tight fit through the middle garage door. In

addition, he wants to back it in, and it's kind of a tough arc to make from the driveway.

The first hundred times he tried, he'd back up fast, then go forward again, trying to get lined up and then take another run at it and not get the angle right, then go forward fast again, then back up again, go forward, back up, and finally he'd get it right. All the while, he'd be criticizing himself for not knowing how to do it right.

I tried to tell him that it's just mathematics--visualize the arc that the wheelbase can make and allow for more room at the start.

Well, for reasons I now understand, that communication did not go over well. And it probably really pissed him off when he saw that the first time I parked his truck, I did it in one step--successfully. (He even came out of the house to watch me.)

I told one of my friends about it when he kept doing the same ineffective strategy for months--he's finally learned how to do it more successfully.

Recently, when she was visiting, she pointed to the black tire marks on the driveway and we shared a knowing laugh.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't feel like I can do radical acceptance on this one. The reason is that our kids have started exhibiting this same behavior and it has started a circular wave of BS.

VOC, this^^ is what you indeed do need to radically accept; that this is all happening before your eyes and find ways to curtail it, possibly without his input.

Staying with the heart of a leaver probably isn't helping or making things easier.  That's not a judgment on you, I experienced similar, staying in a marriage that I wanted out of!  So many things he did drove me absolutely crazy, yet there I stayed expecting HIM to be different

This stuff is not easy and it would be nice to have your husband hold the same values that you do about raising the children.  He doesn't.  So what can you do?  Sounds like you might have to do it all, with your children's best interest at heart.  Accept it and work on leaving, if that's where you're ultimately headed.

You cannot change him.  He will have to want to change himself.

I don't expect him to be different. After 18 years, I know damn good and well that he is who he is and there is nothing that I can do about it. Nothing will ever change about him. I know this.

VOC, your actions and your postings don't sound like the acceptance you claim up here ^^^.

Why are you getting in little pissy fights with him over this kind of behavior. Why are you posting about how frustrating and hurtful it is to you. Why are you so desperately looking for a why to get him to change, and give you and your children the attention you legitimately want from him as a husband and a father?

[Cat Familiar]

I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

My husband wants specific times and examples too--he's a retired lawyer. It's damned if you give them specifics and damned if you don't.

[ColdEthyl]

Yep I get that, sadly. My ex was very disengaged with the children and had unreasonable expectations for them. What happened when enough was enough for me and I made my move for a divorce, he was on a bus 3 days later to run home to his mother 4 states away. The children didn't even cry.

Hang in there, sweety. You are doing the best you can.

What difference was it if he is physically present or not?

Good question! For me, I think it goes back to how my kids behave when he is here versus when he isn't. When he isn't here, the girls and I get along pretty well. We joke, we talk, we laugh. When he is here, there is a lot of tension. Oh, and to imitate my five year old, "I don't like daddy. He is stinky. He makes the room stinky." (She has said this on several occasions when he has tried to put them to bed.)

[ColdEthyl]

Same here... .classic BPD move. What my husband says when I come up with specifics is "straw-man arguments"

I try to bring things up and he wants specific times and examples. But, when I give specific times and examples, then I am holding on to things and not forgetting anything.

My husband wants specific times and examples too--he's a retired lawyer. It's damned if you give them specifics and damned if you don't.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, your actions and your postings don't sound like the acceptance you claim up here ^^^.

Why are you getting in little pissy fights with him over this kind of behavior. Why are you posting about how frustrating and hurtful it is to you. Why are you so desperately looking for a why to get him to change, and give you and your children the attention you legitimately want from him as a husband and a father?

You are right GK!

I honestly can't answer the question as to why I am getting in pissy fights with him. A lot of times, it sneaks up on me. I am posting about it being frustrating and hurtful because it IS frustrating and hurtful. I feel like I am trying to be neutral but most of the time it doesn't come across that way.

I don't feel like I am trying to get him to change. I know that I have tried to get him to change in the past. Now, I feel like I am trying to do damage control.

He says he wants to have a relationship with the kids and he says that he wants to be friends with me. I asked him last night, "If you treated a friend the way you treated me, do you think that you would still have a friend?" His response was, "I don't know. I only have one other friend besides you." I am trying to keep the door open.

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better. (I know, it is a bit stupid and naive.)

[Grey Kitty]

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better.

 I think that stopping to feel both that fear and that hope is the really really hard work you have to do on your way to radical acceptance.

[MissyM]

In all honesty, I am afraid. It is really as simple as that. I am scared sh**less. I know I need to leave because nothing is going to change but there is still a part of me that hopes that I will find the magic button to make everything better. (I know, it is a bit stupid and naive.)

I can understand that. I feel like a lot of the change occurred for my dBPDh when I became detached and still had boundaries. Around the kids, I am very adamant.  It has helped that my dBPDh really wants to be a good father, that motivates him more than anything else.  This is the reason I married him, that he wanted to be a family man (although he clearly doesn't know how and is learning in recovery).  He has gotten really upset in the past when I have said, I need you to come and help out now.  Now, he is at the point that he offers to help most of the time.  

It is interesting, I notice that taking care of the kids wears my dBPDh out more than anything else.  It seems to take a hurculean effort on his part to do this and it really drains him. (I am giving him a lot of praise right now for the hard work he is doing with the kids).   Does your BPDh find parenting exhausting?  Are there any parameters you could put around his time with the kids? (i.e.) I need for you to watch the kids, feed them by this time, bathe them by this time and put them to bed by this time.  It seems that in the beginning my dBPDh really needed me to be specific because he absolutely had no idea what he was doing.  (well, he still likes me to be very specific)

[waverider]

Vortex knowing you need to leave and fully accepting that, and really letting go of trying to make a change is a hard thing to do. Everything becomes an even bigger trigger. You are trying to adopt two opposing acceptances. What is required to leave, and what is required to stay. Both take equal and opposite commitments. No wonder your head wants to explode of over these frustrating issues.

A lot of these issues with avoidance (as opposed to that due to Avoidance Personality Disorder -APD, usually based in a fear of failure) are based in a complete lack of mindfulness.  The world just flows on by while they exist in their own self imposed bubble. Unless it affects their immediate needs it simply does not rate on the must to do list. Reality detachment in a way.

With kids it is hard as it is hard to teach them to help out when in fact it looks more like they are made to feel more like servants than helpers. That can only create resentment in the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

I can understand that. I feel like a lot of the change occurred for my dBPDh when I became detached and still had boundaries. Around the kids, I am very adamant.  It has helped that my dBPDh really wants to be a good father, that motivates him more than anything else.  This is the reason I married him, that he wanted to be a family man (although he clearly doesn't know how and is learning in recovery).  He has gotten really upset in the past when I have said, I need you to come and help out now.  Now, he is at the point that he offers to help most of the time.

He says that he wants to be a good father and he has admitted to me that he doesn't know how to be one because of the example that his father set. I get that. I understand that. He will ask me for information and perspective so I give it to him. But then, he doesn't put it into practice. It is like he wants to do those things but has absolutely no motivation to do them. It is a case where his words don't match his actions.

It is interesting, I notice that taking care of the kids wears my dBPDh out more than anything else.  It seems to take a hurculean effort on his part to do this and it really drains him. (I am giving him a lot of praise right now for the hard work he is doing with the kids).   Does your BPDh find parenting exhausting?  Are there any parameters you could put around his time with the kids? (i.e.) I need for you to watch the kids, feed them by this time, bathe them by this time and put them to bed by this time.  It seems that in the beginning my dBPDh really needed me to be specific because he absolutely had no idea what he was doing.  (well, he still likes me to be very specific)

I try to be very specific about what should go on when I am at work. I try to make sure that they have something to eat. If I am not able to have something available for him to cook, I'll make sure that there is money so they can stop and get pizza on the way home. I even try to coach the kids to be nicer to dad and help each other out. As a result, there are times when I come home and they have saved everything up for me. The girls have talked to me about it and I have validated their feelings about dad being a jerk to them. He doesn't see it. When they try to communicate with him directly, he gets defensive and will get an attitude. I am not talking about big things either. One of the examples that sticks out is when he got our daughter a drink and it had gross stuff floating on top. She saw the yucky stuff and got grossed out. He tried to argue with her and make her drink it anyway. She came to me so I stepped in and got her a new cup and validated that, yes, there was yucky stuff floating on top.

We have actually made a lot of progress with the kids. At least now, I can leave the house without them freaking out. They will let me nap. Before, if I tried to take a nap, they would come wake me up because they didn't trust dad to help them. But, he would tell the kids, ":)on't wake mom up or she is going to be mad." He was making me out to be a bad guy. I told him that it works better if he tells the kids that I am napping because I need sleep or don't feel well. If the kids know why I am laying down, then they are much more apt to give me a little space. If I am in the house and he is on duty, he has a tendency to fall asleep. If he falls asleep, then everything defaults right back to me. Sometimes, I will wake him up and other times I just let it go. I asked the kids why they will wake me up but not him. Their response, ":)ad is a jerk if we wake him up. You are not."

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex knowing you need to leave and fully accepting that, and really letting go of trying to make a change is a hard thing to do. Everything becomes an even bigger trigger. You are trying to adopt two opposing acceptances. What is required to leave, and what is required to stay. Both take equal and opposite commitments. No wonder your head wants to explode of over these frustrating issues.

A lot of these issues with avoidance (as opposed to that due to Avoidance Personality Disorder -APD, usually based in a fear of failure) are based in a complete lack of mindfulness.  The world just flows on by while they exist in their own self imposed bubble. Unless it affects their immediate needs it simply does not rate on the must to do list. Reality detachment in a way.

With kids it is hard as it is hard to teach them to help out when in fact it looks more like they are made to feel more like servants than helpers. That can only create resentment in the kids.

Thank you waverider!

This helps a lot. I am trying to adopt opposing views. On one hand, I know that the only way that things are going to improve is to leave. On the other hand, I know that I can't just up and leave. I know that I have to be very careful and very deliberate in how I approach everything. Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about all of this. Some days, my resolve to leave is really strong and I really don't care one way or the other about much of anything. Then, there are other days when we will get into a conversation about serious stuff and I get confused and don't know what to think.

I feel like I have lost all ability to communicate and think some days.

[Cat Familiar]

This helps a lot. I am trying to adopt opposing views. On one hand, I know that the only way that things are going to improve is to leave. On the other hand, I know that I can't just up and leave. I know that I have to be very careful and very deliberate in how I approach everything. Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about all of this. Some days, my resolve to leave is really strong and I really don't care one way or the other about much of anything. Then, there are other days when we will get into a conversation about serious stuff and I get confused and don't know what to think.

I feel like I have lost all ability to communicate and think some days.

You're balancing so much at once--taking every ones' feelings in mind and looking at the bigger picture, while he is just being himself. HUGS!

[vortex of confusion]

Mine says "I'll think about that." Discussion ended. And he never gets back to me with an opinion or statement.

Mine will talk incessantly. Sometimes I think he talks just to hear himself talk. He usually has a statement or an opinion. For the longest time, I would engage him and we would have these circular discussions that wouldn't stop until I agreed with him or saw things his way. It was so unbelievably maddening and so subtle. It wasn't until I found the resources here that I was able to stop, or at least curtail, some of the non-stop talking.

The kids think that if it is quiet, they need to talk. I took our 10 year old somewhere the other day and she apologized to me for not talking much. I told her that she didn't need to apologize. Sometimes it is nice to enjoy somebody's company without all of the talking.

[Cat Familiar]

Mine will talk incessantly. Sometimes I think he talks just to hear himself talk. He usually has a statement or an opinion. For the longest time, I would engage him and we would have these circular discussions that wouldn't stop until I agreed with him or saw things his way. It was so unbelievably maddening and so subtle. It wasn't until I found the resources here that I was able to stop, or at least curtail, some of the non-stop talking.

My ex-husband was like that--another BPD, as was my mother. It's almost as if a differing opinion threatens their sense of self.

[vortex of confusion]

My ex-husband was like that--another BPD, as was my mother. It's almost as if a differing opinion threatens their sense of self.

My mother is kind of like that too. Actually, there are times when I think that my husband is just like my mother.

I can see that. It is really evident when dealing with the kids. The kids seem to have a difficult time with differing opinions. And when their opinion butts up against dad's opinion, it can make things really uncomfortable and I have to stop things and say, "Hey, we are all different people. It is okay for us all to like different things and have different opinions. Life would be boring if we all thought the same way and liked the same things."

[Grey Kitty]

We have actually made a lot of progress with the kids. At least now, I can leave the house without them freaking out. They will let me nap. Before, if I tried to take a nap, they would come wake me up because they didn't trust dad to help them. But, he would tell the kids, ":)on't wake mom up or she is going to be mad." He was making me out to be a bad guy. I told him that it works better if he tells the kids that I am napping because I need sleep or don't feel well. If the kids know why I am laying down, then they are much more apt to give me a little space. If I am in the house and he is on duty, he has a tendency to fall asleep. If he falls asleep, then everything defaults right back to me. Sometimes, I will wake him up and other times I just let it go. I asked the kids why they will wake me up but not him. Their response, ":)ad is a jerk if we wake him up. You are not."

What is the rough timeline for this improvement?

Was it in response to your working on the lessons and tools here?

[vortex of confusion]

What is the rough timeline for this improvement?

Was it in response to your working on the lessons and tools here?

Some of the lessons here helped. A lot of the improvement began a little over a year ago (Sept. 2013) when my dad gave me the money and told me to leave for a week. I had all kinds of excuses and was afraid to leave him with the kids. My dad told me to tell him that I was going to do it and that he had to take a week off of work to take care of the kids. After that, the kids eased up quite a bit because it forced him and the kids to figure things out without me there. In Feb. 2014, I got my part time job outside of the house and that helped too because he was again forced to be with the kids without me around. Neither him nor the kids could run to me. And I have tried to talk to the kids to help them be more understanding of dad while doing a better job of validating their feelings. I used to be pretty bad at validating their negative feelings about dad.

I think the lessons here have helped me most with boundaries with him and the kids. And, I am able to better referee and just tell them all to STOP without a bunch of explanation or BS on my part.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .it sounds like he *IS* capable of doing better with the kids when he has to then.

There may be room to generate more improvement this way... .?

[MissyM]

Some of the lessons here helped. A lot of the improvement began a little over a year ago (Sept. 2013) when my dad gave me the money and told me to leave for a week. I had all kinds of excuses and was afraid to leave him with the kids. My dad told me to tell him that I was going to do it and that he had to take a week off of work to take care of the kids. After that, the kids eased up quite a bit because it forced him and the kids to figure things out without me there. In Feb. 2014, I got my part time job outside of the house and that helped too because he was again forced to be with the kids without me around. Neither him nor the kids could run to me. And I have tried to talk to the kids to help them be more understanding of dad while doing a better job of validating their feelings. I used to be pretty bad at validating their negative feelings about dad.

I think the lessons here have helped me most with boundaries with him and the kids. And, I am able to better referee and just tell them all to STOP without a bunch of explanation or BS on my part.

Sounds like you have made quite a few changes for improvement in the last year!  So, good for you. 

Sometimes we don't realize change is happening because it is at a glacier speed.  Hopefully keeping on the the track you are going will effect more change.

[waverider]

Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids.

This will be very difficult. It is near unheard of to have a smooth negotiated exit with a pwBPD. Invariably the wheels fall off and accusations fly, no matter how considerate you try to be.

[vortex of confusion]

Because we have 4 kids together, I want to still be friends and maintain some kind of kind regard towards him for the sake of the kids.

This will be very difficult. It is near unheard of to have a smooth negotiated exit with a pwBPD. Invariably the wheels fall off and accusations fly, no matter how considerate you try to be.

I know and that is part of what scares me. I have to get my head on a little straighter and figure out how to support myself and four kids. And, I have to figure out how to deal with the house. The kids love their house. Three of our four kids were born here and they can't stand the idea of living anywhere but here. I have to figure out if I am going to need to seek assistance from the women's center. I don't want to go that route but it is an option. I'd rather find a way to negotiate things with him.

More importantly, I want to get the kids in a better place. Our oldest daughter has extreme anxiety and I feel like she might be developing BPD or something. She and I had a long talk last night after everyone else went to bed. Some of the things she said really scared me. She is 13 and says that she feels like she doesn't have a personality.

[Grey Kitty]

  There is one good bit of news for you buried in this dilemma, VOC.

You can work on disengaging from his disorder and behavior, and accepting that he is who he is, and will do what he does.

This work is critical for you to improve living in the house as you are doing it.

It also will be critical for you to do the right thing for yourself and your kids in a divorce/custody dispute.

And the acceptance will also help you decide what is right for you and your children. It will give you the peace, and you can then choose to leave or stay.

The feeling of "being trapped" fades away pretty quickly when you accept exactly what your situation is.

It is VERY hard work. And it is worth it.

[Cat Familiar]

You've certainly got a lot to think about and to manage and plan for the future.

However, I'm wondering if in the meantime, you could get another break somehow. It certainly doesn't seem like your husband has much sense of responsibility for the kid's welfare. I'm just appalled that he places a higher priority on playing his game rather than feeding his hungry children.

But, getting away from him, as you did briefly, seemed to help him realize that he needed to take responsibility. Knowing that you're there to pick up the slack is enabling him to be a teenager--just reading and playing video games while you shoulder all the burdens of your family.

I'm wondering if you could manage to take some time away for yourself--maybe just taking an evening class once a week--something to nurture you. And by doing that, force him to take more responsibility for the kids. As long as you're around, he has no motivation to do anything differently.

I don't have the responsibilities you do, but also having a "teenage" husband, I have gotten so frustrated that I let him know I felt like I was "living with a teenager." It really pissed him off, and he became very resentful about being identified thusly, but it did help him to start trying to be a little more responsible.

[vortex of confusion]

You've certainly got a lot to think about and to manage and plan for the future.

Some days it is too overwhelming to even think about. Some days, it is easier to slip back into my nice little delusional comfort zone.

However, I'm wondering if in the meantime, you could get another break somehow. It certainly doesn't seem like your husband has much sense of responsibility for the kid's welfare. I'm just appalled that he places a higher priority on playing his game rather than feeding his hungry children.

I do have a part time job outside of the house nice. I work three days a week for a total of 12 hours. I absolutely love going to work. I talked to my boss the other day about my 5 year plan, which involves leaving my husband. Today, he approached me and asked if I would be interested in working full time if a position opens up. That made me feel so good and so happy. If I could get a job here and figure out a way to juggle the kids on my own, that would be the answer to all of my prayers.

He will feed them. It is just that they have to wait. Sometimes, he will get up and take care of it quickly but other times he doesn't. His priorities are completely out of whack and nothing that I say or do seems to get through to him that it is not okay to spend that much time on the computer. He will point to my computer use or the kid's computer use as a way to divert the topic. Yes, I do use the computer a lot but I also cook dinner, do dishes, do laundry, clean, pay bills, and a host of other stuff. He did make cookies with the girls while I was at work last night. I think that is the first time he has done anything like that with them.

But, getting away from him, as you did briefly, seemed to help him realize that he needed to take responsibility. Knowing that you're there to pick up the slack is enabling him to be a teenager--just reading and playing video games while you shoulder all the burdens of your family.

That week was really rough for him. There were times when he would try to call or text me because he didn't know what to do or how to handle things.

I'm wondering if you could manage to take some time away for yourself--maybe just taking an evening class once a week--something to nurture you. And by doing that, force him to take more responsibility for the kids. As long as you're around, he has no motivation to do anything differently.

I have been trying to do better at getting out and doing something on my own or even with one of the girls.

I don't have the responsibilities you do, but also having a "teenage" husband, I have gotten so frustrated that I let him know I felt like I was "living with a teenager." It really pissed him off, and he became very resentful about being identified thusly, but it did help him to start trying to be a little more responsible.

I have said all sorts of things, nice and some really down right mean. He will improve for a little while but then usually slip right back into his old habits. That has been the cycle for years. The funny thing is that he had to identify his resentments as part of his 12 step program. He says he has no resentments towards me. That baffles me because I know I can be a pain in the a$$. I don't do it deliberately but I know that I am not perfect and that I can sometimes lose my head and act like a real jerk. I so badly want him to be able to have a more realistic view of me and our relationship. He is so content to act like I am a saint and he is horrible and there is nothing wrong. I understand that it is sometimes easier to hide in a fantasy world but at some point it needs to stop.

[Grey Kitty]

Some days it is too overwhelming to even think about. Some days, it is easier to slip back into my nice little delusional comfort zone.

I know that one. I'm afraid I've gotten to a place where my delusional comfort zone doesn't feel nice anymore. Maybe I don't believe the delusions as well as I used to.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm glad you planted the seed about transitioning into full time employment when that becomes a possibility. In the meantime, it seems like you are totally burned out with your husband's irresponsibility and I totally get it.

The only thing that keeps me sane at times is to make sure I'm being kind and supportive to myself--and I don't have all the responsibilities you do.

I was thinking that since your husband managed to make cookies with your kids, perhaps you could enlist your oldest daughter to think of a meal she would like to have and get dad to help her cook it. That way everybody gets fed and dad learns that he can help and maybe even have fun with the kids.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has now been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for understanding