Can't believe I'm posting here

[Botswana Agate]

Denial? Unbelief? The horror that I might have to go through this again?  It's all here.

I'm fairly certain DD11 is showing signs/traits of BPD.  I think she's been showing them for a few years now, and a friend who's an LMFT helped me see them; this LMFT was the one who helped me unofficially "diagnose" my BPD mother, who I cut off two years ago.  And the thought of having to go through this again with DD make me want to die.

I took DD11 to therapy this summer because of what I thought were the BPD traits, but of course the therapist didn't diagnose her because of her age.  Instead, DD11 was diagnosed with anxiety/NOS and I think the therapy has been generally helpful.  She and my other DD7 are homeschooled, faith-based.

After insisting on particularly hard-line gay marriage beliefs, that she was bisexual and insisting on her own way (please, no flames, I don't want this to turn into a gay marriage debate) and when I thought I'd lost my voice, I enrolled her in the local public school, telling her that her sexuality and views would be celebrated and there would be no religion whatsoever.  She lasted only one day, after seeing the bullying and how good she had it at home.  I allowed her to continue homeschooling, with the express understanding that a Catholic viewpoint would not only be taught but understood, a clean sweep of music would happen, and there would be a drastic change in how she would treat me.  This was almost two weeks ago.

Since then, recent behaviours:

DD11 had a veritable FIT over something stupid in her schoolwork that i corrected her over.  It was over a date and a Roman numeral.  I had corrected her while she was reading aloud, and you'd have thought I committed a greivous sin.  Did I need to correct her (the date was 1258; she said 1958 and I just said "1258", and she said "WHATEVER! 1258!" and when she struggled over reading the Roman numeral (VIII--after several tries, I responded "eight" and she yelled "I WAS GOING TO READ IT MYSELF! GEEZE!"

She made a promise to DD7 to have a dance party in the basement after schoolwork was done, and DD7 was excited to do this with her sister.  DD11 even asked to go to the Dollar Store to pick up "supplies", which ended up being candy that she would share with DD7.  But when the time came to do the party and she didn't do it, I told her to hold up her end of a promise she made, she flipped out and wanted her way.  Let me tell you, I became the wrath of God--this just happened Friday--and became rage myself.  I told her I was NOT living with another borderline (in reference to my mother) and I would rather have her out of the house than rip up the family.  This was the first mention to her about borderline personality disorder--might it have been wrong, given the circumstances? Perhaps. 

But it happened AGAIN on Saturday, when I had to go into work and take the girls with me. I let DD11 sleep in as long as possible, and told her to just throw on a sweatshirt over her tank, bra and sweats so I wouldn't be late.  But no, she was getting fully dressed!  I went down to tell her to just throw on a sweatshirt, i was going to be late, and she flipped her sh!t again, saying "you should have woken me up earlier! now get out of my room and let me get dressed!" I spanked her with my hand and she yelled, "now you're ticking me off!" I spanked her again and told her again I was NOT living my life with a borderline personality, that it didn't matter if i'd have let her sleep in or wake up early.  that shut her up, at least.  when i told my husband, even he agrees that the time i'd awakened her wouldn't have mattered.

Then, it's the snide things she says to DD7.  She was walking past the tv and said a snide, derisive thing about a Pretty Pony commercial--something DD7 has liked to play with--and said, "oh wow, isn't THAT something a baaaayyybeeee would just loovveeee to play with" or something like that.  DD7 started to cry and DD11 tried to "cover" it up by saying 'I was just saying it was something little kids or babies would like!".  Yeah, right.

Another thing was yesterday--DD7 was playing in the snow with the 8-year-old neighbor boy.  they were having a blast, and I was taking DD11 to a friend's house so DD7 had to come.  In the car, DD11 was teasing DD7 about the boy being a "boyfriend".  DD7 is freaking SEVEN, she doesn't CARE or even know about "boyfriends", wow.  I called DD1 on it and said, see, borderlines do crap like this, tease others without even thinking, and make people feel bad.  "well, she's done it to me!"  and I said that's another thing, they don't own up to what they do, and blame others for their actions.  how's that make you feel, DD11?"  boy, she changed her tune quick.  what I should have done was take her back home and not to her friend's house, but I just wanted her out of the car. 

Yesterday, when I was recovering from some viral crud, I mentioned that I could use a nap after schooling was done and DD11 said they'd play quietly while I was napping.  DD7 asked what they'd play, and DD11 looked right at her and me and said, "we'll play Barbies!"  Well, the time came, I got settled, DD7 got ready to play, and DD11 was busy with something else.  When she was called, and reminded of her promise, I told her what she said.  She looked me straight in the face and said, "No I didn't."  After a few times of "I didn't say that" she tried to twist her words into "that's not what I meant" until I finally said, "do you need a reality check, or another explanation of the disorder?", and she finally huffed and played with her sister.  But I wonder what this did to DD7, because who wants someone to be "forced" to play with you, or to keep promising you something you won't deliver on?

And just today, she tried to start an argument about how much affection i gave DD7 versus her.  Shaking my head, I told her I did not wake DD7 up this morning in the manner I woke DD11 up--going down to her room, snuggling her and unwrapping her while eating her face.  Didn't matter.  DD11 still wanted to argue about it, and made some reference to "weeks ago" when apparently I didn't hug her or show affection to her like I did her sister (or something).

I told her, fine, if she was going to start score-keeping affection, she could keep a "Withholding Love" journal and document each and every instance that love and affection was withheld from her, in whatever form it took, whether from a snuggle, hug, kiss, whatever, and who did it, and who got it instead.  "Stop manipulating me!" she said from the backseat (we were on our way to Mass), and I told her that I wasn't going to do the score-keeping crap, but if she wanted to that was fine, and raising my voice that *I* wasn't going to be manipulated.  She could begin her "Withholding Love" journal immediately when we got home.  Her tune changed after some minutes of quiet in the car.

So now, I've labeled her, lost my cool with the label at her, and feel like a failure.  What i don't feel is one bit sorry about telling her that I'd rather have her out of the house than live with another borderline again.  I WILL NOT DO THAT AGAIN.  I did that for 40-some years.  I will not do that again.  Then there are those sweet moments when I *do* see how sweet DD11 can be, but when she flipped her sh!t over the broken dance party promise and I became wrath, I felt so unbelievably sick to my stomach I felt like I'd been through a war. 

I've called the local mental health agency to see about DBT, and also her therapist to see about a consult.  Please, no judging about throwing the BPD label at her.  I'm weary and worn.  I hate this.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[tristesse]

HI Botswana Agate

I am really sorry you are going through this with your daughter right now. But Don't be so hard on yourself. BPD is a horrible unforgiving illness, it causes pain and destruction to those who love a BPD, and we are all human, so mistakes are made and things are said.

I agree with you for checking into DBT, and hopefully you can get that scheduled and begin the healing process. Your DD is not a lost cause. She is very young, and there is always hope.

Have you had the opportunity to heck out the lessons and tools? So much of it is helpful. There is just so much information here, and so much support.

I will not belittle you for telling her you think she has BPD, you sound pretty worn down right now. I hear your pain and your frustration over the situations, I also hear the sadness. Take a breather if you can, find your own calm and regroup. Take some time for self care, tomorrow will be a new day and a new beginning.

Sending hugs and moral support.

[lever.]

Hello Botswana Agate  

I am glad that you have found this site and I am sorry that you and your daughter are having such difficulties.

It sounds as if you had a very difficult time with your mother (have you ever read or posted on the Coping and Healing board).

It must be very frightening to feel that you face the prospect of going through the whole thing again with your daughter-and you will be aware that there is indeed a genetic component with BPD.

However the good news is that your daughter is still very young and her personality is still forming.

She will not necessarily develop all the same traits as your mother.

There is a great deal that you can do at this stage to help both yourself and your daughter.

Please take your time and read through the lessons ("What Can a Parent Do?" and look at the tools on the right hand side of the page.

Is your daughter a very mature 11 year old? Identity confusion about sexuality and a lot of other things is common with BPD but she is quite young to be focusing on this. I would think that at 11 she would only just be becoming aware of her sexuality.What do you think that's about? I hope other people will help out with their opinions.

I don't want to seem to under-estimate how difficult an eleven year old can be, my own daughter's extreme mood swings and outbursts were already very challenging at that age.

I am glad that there is a chance of you accessing DBT for her. I believe it is available in a modified form to younger teens. I found the mindfulness skills and emotion regulation skills were also helpful to me in coping with my daughter.

The good news here is that you are seeking help whilst your daughter is very young.

Well done for managing to continue with the home education. Does your daughter co-operate with you over her education?

I know that I would have found it difficult.

Do you manage to look after yourself and have the opportunity for time with friends and regular breaks.

Looking after ourselves is so omportant when we are supporting a child with a mental health issue.  

[Botswana Agate]

To answer some questions:

Yes, she is EXTREMELY mature--and sexually, at that--for her age.  She's very tall for her age, and routinely gets mistaken for being at least 14.  She was, unfortunately, exposed to porn about a year and a half ago, when I caught her downstairs with the computer in her room.  I can't remember if I either found the porn myself or asked her point-blank what she was hiding; either way, she confessed and I saw it for myself.   I will beat myself up for this until my dying day.  Why didn't I keep a better eye on the damn thing?  Why didn't I keep a better eye on her?  Why didn't I have monitoring software in place to prevent this in the first place?  The porn was two pre-teen girls french-kissing and fondling each other, naked.  Great god, how could I have allowed that to happen?  I will hold that guilt forever.  Plus, on her wattpad account (a writing forum, which you can also correspond with other writers) she happened to "friend" another "girl" who labeled herself as bisexual.  So that's probably where it comes from.  Add to that her very vocal pro-gay rights stance, and there you have it.

And yes, I posted previously under another user name on the other "dealing with parents with BPD/coping and healing" board, but lost that username when my previous email ditched.  So this is a new username, and this is a first post under this board, since I'm pretty sure DD11 is exhibiting BPD traits.  I'm very aware of the genetic component, and that's why I hate uBPDm even more.    

Where is "What Can a Parent Do"?

[maxen]

hi Botswana Agate. i'm so sorry for your situation. i don't have a child with BPD, and the parents on this board are my heroes, i've read through some of their threads and i wonder sometimes how they go on. their dedication i can't find the words to praise.

Where is "What Can a Parent Do"?

What can a parent do?

do you have any support for yourself?

[Botswana Agate]

I have two very close friends--the LMFT mentioned in my OP, and another friend.  However, they both live some distance away and are only available by phone.  DH is supportive only in the sense of "fill me in on what you find", if that makes sense.

[ketty180]

To answer some questions:

Yes, she is EXTREMELY mature--and sexually, at that--for her age.  She's very tall for her age, and routinely gets mistaken for being at least 14.  She was, unfortunately, exposed to porn about a year and a half ago, when I caught her downstairs with the computer in her room.  I can't remember if I either found the porn myself or asked her point-blank what she was hiding; either way, she confessed and I saw it for myself.   I will beat myself up for this until my dying day.  Why didn't I keep a better eye on the damn thing?  Why didn't I keep a better eye on her?  Why didn't I have monitoring software in place to prevent this in the first place?  The porn was two pre-teen girls french-kissing and fondling each other, naked.  Great god, how could I have allowed that to happen?  I will hold that guilt forever.  Plus, on her wattpad account (a writing forum, which you can also correspond with other writers) she happened to "friend" another "girl" who labeled herself as bisexual.  So that's probably where it comes from.  Add to that her very vocal pro-gay rights stance, and there you have it.

And yes, I posted previously under another user name on the other "dealing with parents with BPD/coping and healing" board, but lost that username when my previous email ditched.  So this is a new username, and this is a first post under this board, since I'm pretty sure DD11 is exhibiting BPD traits.  I'm very aware of the genetic component, and that's why I hate uBPDm even more.    

Where is "What Can a Parent Do"?

i really feel bad for what you are experiencing with your daughter,it reminds me my father who suffered a lot with my sister and still suffers,i just want to mention to stop blaming your self ,because this sexuality ideas behavior is not coming from a porn watched in secret one day,it is more deep than that,BPD has confusion in sexuality and stays confused about bisexuality,i experienced this with my sister and you cant change this behavior ,because sex for BPD is a way to feel loved and feel the body loved ,i am thinking for DD7,cause i lived the same story and wish her to grow up without DD11 manipulation ,influence and heart break  :'(

[behindme]

Hi Botswana Agate - I understand dealing with such an emotional child is difficult and demanding. I'm uncertain what it is you do or how you'd become familiar with BPD traits to be able to identify them in an individual, particularly a youngster, and to have directed her to a therapist but I commend you for having sought professional intervention when you had. Did you have experience yourself with a BPD parent?  I'm not judging your having lost your cool but what jumped out at me, more so than any sexuality issues or yelling, was the mention of of "I spanked her with my hand and she yelled, 'now you're ticking me off!' I spanked her again".  Has spanking been something that's been addressed with the therapist?  Just wondering if this is at all contributing to any rage issues. If the pattern is a continuous one it may be worth exploring within the entire context of the general problems you're encountering - it's so multifactorial but perhaps not one to be overlooked. It's great that she's getting proper guidance from a counselor, regardless of her eventual diagnosis.

[lever.]

Hi Botswana Agate

Thanks for your reply-and it does help make more sense of some of the behavior.

This forum is not a judgmental place-it is a helpful place and also an honest place.

I have to say that I agree with behindme that spanking is likely to fuel her rage and will not help your relationship. If she is physically more like a 14 year old I think she is likely to start hitting you back.


I completely understand your exasperation and I hope looking at the tools about boundaries etc will give you some alternative ways of managing her. Also the listening and validation will help her feel understood and take some of the heat out of the situation. (She seems to be asking for affection when she is comparing how much you hug her sister etc).I know that this can be difficult when aspects of her behavior towards her sister feel selfish but it does work.

She may look and sometimes act as if she is fourteen but she still has the emotions of an eleven year old. She needs to feel loved.

[Botswana Agate]

To address questions:

I grew up with an uBPD mother.  It was only through many conversations with my LMFT friend that we were able to come up with an unofficial diagnosis of BPD with likely histrionic/narcissistic traits.  But BPD became the main diagnosis.  And again, I say "unofficial" because there was, of course, no way that my mother would ever become diagnosed, as everything that ever went wrong was always everyone else's fault--either my Dad's or mine, always.  My LMFT friend actually took her DSM at the time (I know it's undergone at least one revision) and walked me through the personality disorders, and together, we found that the BPD diagnosis was probably the one that best fit her.  It was something else to actually give her behaviours, her actions, everything a name.

But reading Christine Lawson's "Understanding the Borderline Mother" was what REALLY made everything click.  O.  M.  G.  I was nodding my head so much reading through that book, it was unbelievable.  And then, the part she wrote on spouses of borderlines?  Great God, there was my DAD in black-and-white in one of the sections.  It was both liberating and depressing--liberating to realize that I wasn't alone, and depressing to realize that there were thousands of others like me who'd suffered enough to have a book written about such insanity.

The spanking was a rare thing--I'd lost my cool and was looking for a way to gain control.  Spanking does NOT happen with any regularity whatsoever in our home.  Whenever she's popped off with attitude, I've always given her the ultimatum to knock it off or lose friends, computer time, whatever, said with my own raised voice, not yelling (though I'm sure she "hears" it like that).  An example, just yesterday she was grousing about music she's not allowed to listen to (or something) and she wouldn't drop it--I told her to let it go or I would lower her Net Nanny (filtering software that also allows time allowed) to ZERO.  That Saturday I'd given her two quick cracks on the meat of her butt, not that that makes it any better.    You're right about the physicality of a 14-year-old; I hadn't considered that.

Last night, we did have a great conversation in her bed about boys "hitting" on her.  She was biking to a friend's house and said some boys gave her second looks and said "heeeyyy" or something to that affect.  We talked for about a half-hour.  

[Rapt Reader]

Last night, we did have a great conversation in her bed about boys "hitting" on her.  She was biking to a friend's house and said some boys gave her second looks and said "heeeyyy" or something to that affect.  We talked for about a half-hour.  

That's very cool that you guys were able to have such a productive, amiable Mother-Daughter conversation    It does show that your relationship is solid and that she respects you as her Mom. In these adolescent, pre-teen years, a good relationship is integral to her growing up to be a fine young woman. Kudos!

I did notice that lots of the behaviors that have been pushing your buttons remind me of some of the stuff that went on between my own 2 sons when they were younger. My oldest is 2 years older than my youngest (I just have the two kids), and my younger son would do and say all of the same kinds of stuff that your 11-year-old is challenging you with, when he was an adolescent (and for awhile before and after that). And my younger son tended to talk to me the way your 11-year-old is talking to you, with the same issues being addressed regarding how he saw my relationship with his older brother as being more loving, affectionate, whatever. Even while I believed that I was being equally loving, etc. with both of them.

He actually tormented his older brother mercilously once he started Kindergarten and from then on in, and that behavior really pushed my buttons in a terrible way. I am the oldest of 6 kids, and my next-in-line sibling was my sister who was just 18 months younger than me. And she treated me exactly like my younger son treated my older son (and actually that just changed recently!). In fact, I saw my sister in my younger son so much that I know now that I really overreacted to him sometimes and treated him more like a sibling than a child of mine. In doing so, it did do some damage to our relationship at times  

Now here's the part that might surprise you. My sons are now 37 and 35, and the 37-year-old is the one who was diagnosed with BPD in April 2013 while admitted to a 21-day Intensive In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Program after many years of Suicidal Ideations and Substance Addictions. He's doing very well now (clean and sober for almost 20 months, in Treatment for the BPD that is now in remission), and we are all getting along very well. So, the kid that drove me crazy and pushed my buttons as a youngster and adolescent and teen, is not the one with BPD or major life issues.

I know you see your Mom in your daughter (like I saw my sister in my younger son), but that might not be indicative of your daughter having BPD like your Mom. For years I was scared to death that my younger son would end up like my sister did in her late teen years and early 20's: abusing drugs, tearing our family apart with her bizarre behaviors and crazy thought processes, and tangling up her life in myriad ways before finally getting her act together in her mid-20's or so. Turns out, my younger son was very straight and accomplished in his school and college years, and has always been successful and clear-headed in everything he's taken on to do.

I regret calling him out when he was young, using my sister's name in place of his (and he knew what I meant by that; my sister was infamous in our family for her escapades, and he was also very aware of my being tormented by her as a kid, and how I'd felt about her) and showing him a side of me that was inappropriate for a Mom to show to her son. I've apologized to him for all of that, and he has graciously forgiven me. But I'm still ashamed of that behavior and wish that I'd never done it... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[behindme]

Wow. Thanks for sharing about your mother; I do see you referenced her in your previous post. There's a lot to be sorted through and processed when coming to the realization/conclusion that one's mother possessed BPD traits. I also read Christine Lawson's book and gathered that my own mother had waif traits, my MIL had queen traits and my DIL's had witch traits! While the book has much to offer, it's a lot to fully process on one's own. I can imagine, too, how difficult it must be to identify with milestones you see your daughter going through and see analogies with those you yourself encountered at a similar age - and your desire to spare her of some of the angst you felt with a possibly distant and/or unsupportive parent.  I suppose some of that might be construed as projection, though, on some level; I'm not sure - I'm not a therapist. It's so difficult to navigate uncharted territory across the generations, especially when we've had deficient role models. Have you ever had or considered having guidance from a professional counselor, outside of a friend, to help seek unbiased input to place your past in better perspective? Sometimes such guidance helps frame - or put into perspective - the path we're navigating with those closest to us. I know on a personal level it certainly helped me, more so that any books which only served as foundations along my journey.  Again, just offered as a consideration.  It sounds like you're very close with your daughter and this is an age when such ties need to be fostered; it's such a crucial time. All the best!

[Botswana Agate]

Wow. Thanks for sharing about your mother; I do see you referenced her in your previous post. There's a lot to be sorted through and processed when coming to the realization/conclusion that one's mother possessed BPD traits. I also read Christine Lawson's book and gathered that my own mother had waif traits, my MIL had queen traits and my DIL's had witch traits! While the book has much to offer, it's a lot to fully process on one's own. I can imagine, too, how difficult it must be to identify with milestones you see your daughter going through and see analogies with those you yourself encountered at a similar age - and your desire to spare her of some of the angst you felt with a possibly distant and/or unsupportive parent.  I suppose some of that might be construed as projection, though, on some level; I'm not sure - I'm not a therapist. It's so difficult to navigate uncharted territory across the generations, especially when we've had deficient role models. Have you ever had or considered having guidance from a professional counselor, outside of a friend, to help seek unbiased input to place your past in better perspective? Sometimes such guidance helps frame - or put into perspective - the path we're navigating with those closest to us. I know on a personal level it certainly helped me, more so that any books which only served as foundations along my journey.  Again, just offered as a consideration.  It sounds like you're very close with your daughter and this is an age when such ties need to be fostered; it's such a crucial time. All the best!

It's really interesting you mention these things.  The milestone of DD11's first period was SO different than my own, I can't even begin to tell you.  When I told my uBPDm of getting my period--at a friend's sleepover--the next day in church, she began to laugh, literally, out loud, and then made a big show of covering her mouth and rolling her eyes at others while giving them looks like "you won't believe what Botswana Agate just said!"  When DD11 got hers--at a friend's sleepover, no less!--she was somewhat frightened and had a bunch of questions.  What did I do?  Took her in my arms and ate her.

See, I swore up and down that I would rather DIE than ever, ever be my mother.  I have tried to do everything to/for my kids that was never done to me, and now that I'm seeing what might be traits again, I feel like it's a curse and despite what I've tried to do, I've dismally failed.  I was horribly physically abused at uBPDm's hands, and then she'd throw it back in my face about how I'd "hit myself in the face again".  So when I'd spanked DD11, I felt like uBPDm all over again.  I think I may have despised DD11 somewhat for even putting me in that position, if that makes sense.  And who, WHO despises their own children?  

[behindme]

And who, WHO despises their own children?

     

You bring up a good point…or rather sad emotion, some of us who have felt that we've experienced some BPD characteristics in our own mothers have probably felt that rage at one point or another in our own upbringing. And I suppose if we see such traits reflected in our kids it could very well trigger such emotions again. I wonder if that may be what you're feeling now, especially as your daughter is approaching adolescence. It might not even be something you're consciously aware of, that's not something we know for certain. But it does sound as if some of her behaviors have been troubling to you more so lately and the questions you're posing then reflecting back to yourself seem to be leading back to your own r/s with your mother.  

I just finished reading a book about NPT written by Dr. Drew Pinsky and it was interesting to see how some of the very causes of NPD can be polar opposites - from uncaring parents to overly caring; for example ones that totally ignored their kids so the kids grow up so insecure they seek validation constantly and project this grandiose sense of entitlement to make up for what they'd been lacking as a child to the other extreme of those who parent(s) had been so overly involved - like a stage parent - telling the kid how great/wonderful they were they grew up believing it and developed a sense of entitlement on that basis, like Paris Hilton let's say. So it really does become a fine line in parenting. I guess what I'm saying is much as we sometimes strive to be so UNLIKE our parents, sometimes in doing so we overachieve and there can be problems with that, too - but we fail to see it at the time. Not that I'm faulting your parenting by any means - but I'm not sure how your DD has seen the mothering/loving nature you intended. Sometimes kids see it as smothering/overprotective and they tend to rebel - esp. at adolescence. It's such a hard time to negotiate - for the two of you. Or actually the entire family.  And since you mentioned your DD already got her period, adding hormones to the mixture now - oh boy. What a battleground of emotions!  Not easy, I'm sure.  And it must stir up A LOT of issues for everyone with all the implications.

Soul-searching on your own is tough work. I hope you're able to find some assistance during this bumpy time, its certainly a lot harder than I can offer besides an ear.