how much of this disorder is the subconscious at work?

[BlackandBlue]

This is something I've been wondering about since I learned about  BPD. Just how much of there actions is the subconscious at play? For instance, when they project and say nasty stuff to us, are they even thinking at that moment about how bad they feel about themselves when they unleash their wrath of hurtful words? When she said "I hate you and everything you stand for" in her head was she thinking that she hates herself and everything she stands for but just changed the words around to direct them at me? Are they even aware to the truth when they spit thus stuff out of their mouths or are they completely oblivious?

[guy4caligirl]

What a good question my fiend we hope that the pros will comment on this I can't wait !

[vortex of confusion]

I think you have a good point. Given my husband's behavior and his excuses, I don't think he is consciously doing anything and that is part of the problem. They don't think. They bounce around like pinballs reacting to one thing after another without ever really stopping to think about what it is they are saying and doing. They don't seem to be able to equate actions with their potential consequences.

It may or may not be projecting when she says "I hate you and everything you stand for". If am completely honest with myself, I have had some pretty nasty thoughts about other people. The difference between me and my husband is that I know that it is a fleeting feeling. In a bad moment, I do have negative feelings towards my husband. However, I try not to act on those feelings because I know they are fleeting and I can think about it logically and rationally. When somebody pointed out to me that to them feelings are the equivalent of facts, that made so much stuff make a whole lot of sense. In a particular moment, he may indeed be feeling that horrible feeling. The problem is that he sees it as an indisputable fact rather than just a transitory feeling.

Like I tell my girls, you don't have to like your sisters. However, not liking somebody does not give you the right to be a jerk to them. No matter how bad you are feeling towards somebody, you should try to find ways to be nice to them. At the very least, don't be mean. I don't think my husband ever learned that so when he has negative feelings about somebody, his response is to be a jerk. It isn't something that is consciously thought out. It just happens. I think that is why so many people, especially me, are frustrated with the whole excuse that some of them give, which is "But I didn't mean it. That wasn't my intent."

[willtimeheal]

I don't think they have a clue how much they hate themselves. I doubt they are even aware they hate themselves when they are yelling and degrading us. I believe it is a defense mechanism. If they were ever to face themselves and their self hatred they couldn't handle it. I think when they unleash on us it is their minds way of protecting them from the pain of how much they hate themselves.

[Hawk Ridge]

Knowing that self-hate is a factor helps me let go of my shame.  Thank you

[Blimblam]

This is something I've been wondering about since I learned about  BPD. Just how much of there actions is the subconscious at play? For instance, when they project and say nasty stuff to us, are they even thinking at that moment about how bad they feel about themselves when they unleash their wrath of hurtful words? When she said "I hate you and everything you stand for" in her head was she thinking that she hates herself and everything she stands for but just changed the words around to direct them at me? Are they even aware to the truth when they spit thus stuff out of their mouths or are they completely oblivious?

Now your talking!

Researching projection, transference, dissacosiation, and cognitive dissonance. These are the mechanisms involved that have given me the clearest understanding. 

To get a grasp behind transference and what is going on there member 2010 posts have sumerized a lot of the theories of masterson on the formation of BPD. 

So, in my opinion it is basically all subconscious and when it rises into the conciousness they really don't understand why.  To understand why they would have to confront their shame and pain which is what they are trying to avoid in the first place.

[guy4caligirl]

Bim Blam I knew and couldn't wait for you to comment on that !

[hergestridge]

The subconscious is a freudian term and belongs in that (semi-magical) psychological tradition.

There is a scientfic consensus around the fact that people with BPD can not regulate their own emotions, and therefore become slaves under them. Thefore they also become slaves to things that happen around them that they react to. The emotions are not so different from the ones you and I have.

To do something without intention does not mean that something subconscious it at work. People do things that work for them.

[Skip]

The subconscious is a freudian term and belongs in that (semi-magical) psychological tradition.

There is a scientfic consensus around the fact that people with BPD can not regulate their own emotions, and therefore become slaves under them. Thefore they also become slaves to things that happen around them that they react to. The emotions are not so different from the ones you and I have.

To do something without intention does not mean that something subconscious it at work. People do things that work for them.

Interesting.  

I tend to think of it is a habitual/learned behavior based on instinctual (BPD) reactions (fear based) - at least for those with a genetic predisposition (about half).  

Its deeper than "doing things that work for them" - it's doing things that are protective.

[Waifed]

We all project, feel shame, etc. I certainly wasn't aware of these things before all of this. I believe that we all do what we have learned and are comfortable with. It's hard to break from habits/behavior unless there is a life altering event that forces you to look at your behavior. These events happen to most people rarely if ever at all. It took me 47 years and a relationship wit a uBPDgf to look at my behavior. Even the ending of my 14 year marriage previously did not change things enough for me to self evaluate.

[peiper]

I don't buy into the idea that they don't have an inkling of what their doing. So much of what my pwBPDex did was without a doubt premeditated there's no way it was something she did on the spur of the moment out of emotion. Then again she also showed a lot of narcissist qualitys.

[Raybo48]

This is a very interesting thread and has caused me to reflect on my own situation with my BPDxgf.  I'd have to say a good 80% or more of her behavior was pure reaction and self preservation motived by fear and shame.  While I do agree that some of her behavior was premeditated I don't think she sat around thinking about what her next move was going to be.  I honestly don't think the BPD mind works like that.  It seems to be very instinctual and very quick to protect. We perceive that as rage or vindictiveness, but to them it's a natural reaction to being shamed.  It was rather easy to shame my ex and sometimes there was a good 24 hour delayed affect, which I believe was due to the fact that she didn't process what had been said or done to her right away.  Her particular nature is to dwell on things so I think she felt shame by doing that hours or even a few days later.

[CareTaker]

Just how much of there actions is the subconscious at play? For instance, when they project and say nasty stuff to us, are they even thinking at that moment about how bad they feel about themselves when they unleash their wrath of hurtful words?

This is quite interesting. This is what got me thinking something is wrong. Never in any previous relationship have I heard such hate speech. Sure you have arguments, but nothing like this. The constant repeating of all your previous mistakes and the personal verbal abuse drove me round the bend. I felt so sorry for my ex, for carrying so much hatred in her. Yet, within seconds she can change and be the most loving person. And vice versa.

That is not normal, and I think the disorder triggers something in the subconscious. A conscious person is fully aware of what is happening around them, at that given moment.

For example, we sitting next to each other having an argument. To divert the attention off the original problem, all my sins of the past 3 years gets repeated, (again) with all the personal insults and degrading.

Out of frustration I scream: shut the f***ck up. She jumps up and grabs the bread knife and advances towards me with it. Subconscious.

By the time she reaches the couch where I am sitting,  she realizes what she is doing. Conscious.

She defuses the situation by slumping down on the floor and crying. Telling me she thought her life was in danger and had to defend herself. So it was my fault.

This is scary. These people can kill without knowing what they doing.

[BlackandBlue]

ok, so these people have no idea whats going on in their lives? the lying, cheating, gaslighting, projecting, the emotional abuse, etc... .they are doing it spur of the moment whether it right or wrong? the words are just flying out of their mouth true or untrue? they have no conscious and could care less that they are inflicting harm to others who actually love them? I just cant seem to wrap my head around any of their thoughts or actions. I understand they are mentally ill and by me trying to understand them ill go insane myself. but these people are truly a menace to society then. the high functioning ones like my exgf especially... .I mean she really fooled me good and sucked me into her vortex of destruction. its a shame that she is just gonna keep hurting people over and over again.

[Blimblam]

ok, so these people have no idea whats going on in their lives? the lying, cheating, gaslighting, projecting, the emotional abuse, etc... .they are doing it spur of the moment whether it right or wrong? the words are just flying out of their mouth true or untrue? they have no conscious and could care less that they are inflicting harm to others who actually love them? I just cant seem to wrap my head around any of their thoughts or actions. I understand they are mentally ill and by me trying to understand them ill go insane myself. but these people are truly a menace to society then. the high functioning ones like my exgf especially... .I mean she really fooled me good and sucked me into her vortex of destruction. its a shame that she is just gonna keep hurting people over and over again.

Ok for example let's say you made a face when she said something that triggered shame in her.  She may or may not express it right away she may beat her self up a bit  heck she may even give her number out at work as a revenge. Then she may feel guilty about giving her number out then she projects this shame onto you and dissasociates from it. So then she says something mean randomly or holds you in contempt.  Then perhaps you pick up on this and call her out. She has more shame. So she texts back the guy she have the number out. Etc Etc.

[BlackandBlue]

ok, so these people have no idea whats going on in their lives? the lying, cheating, gaslighting, projecting, the emotional abuse, etc... .they are doing it spur of the moment whether it right or wrong? the words are just flying out of their mouth true or untrue? they have no conscious and could care less that they are inflicting harm to others who actually love them? I just cant seem to wrap my head around any of their thoughts or actions. I understand they are mentally ill and by me trying to understand them ill go insane myself. but these people are truly a menace to society then. the high functioning ones like my exgf especially... .I mean she really fooled me good and sucked me into her vortex of destruction. its a shame that she is just gonna keep hurting people over and over again.

Ok for example let's say you made a face when she said something that triggered shame in her.  She may or may not express it right away she may beat her self up a bit  heck she may even give her number out at work as a revenge. Then she may feel guilty about giving her number out then she projects this shame onto you and dissasociates from it. So then she says something mean randomly or holds you in contempt.  Then perhaps you pick up on this and call her out. She has more shame. So she texts back the guy she have the number out. Etc Etc.

thanks blim that was very helpful. what really pisses me of is that they can think and act like that yet have no idea that what they are doing is messed up. do they ever snap out of it and are like "my god what am I doing"? even if its just for a brief moment in time?

[hergestridge]

A person with ADHD works pretty much the same way; when they have fu*ked something up themselves in some way the only way they can handle it is to become defensive. It's the immediate reaction (deflect, deny, defend). To calm down, reflect and eventually take responsibility is basically the afterthought. It's not that much different with pwBPD.

If we hit our head on a shelf, for a brief second we actually blame the shelf!

pwBPD don't learn because they don't face up to the problem. They keep blaming the shelf. They are emotionally immature. Like children. Children act spontaneously, not on impulses from the subconscious.

IMO there is some surplus freudian rhetoric surrounding BPD that is sometimes taken for fact.

[Blimblam]

Hesteridge,

The original problem is truama that is stored in their memory that is below the surface of their concious awareness in other words the subconscious. Allegories for this exist in every culture and for thousands of years. A repressed traumatic memory they are bonded to.

[hergestridge]

Hesteridge,

The original problem is truama that is stored in their memory that is below the surface of their concious awareness in other words the subconscious. Allegories for this exist in every culture and for thousands of years. A repressed traumatic memory they are bonded to.

As the Wikipedia article on the subject hints at, there is no scientific consensus on the exact cause of BPD.

"As is the case with other mental disorders, the causes of BPD are complex and not fully agreed upon.[8] Evidence suggests that BPD and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) may be related in some way.[37] Most researchers agree that a history of childhood trauma can be a contributing factor,[38] but less attention has historically been paid to investigating the causal roles played by congenital brain abnormalities, genetics, neurobiological factors, and environmental factors other than trauma.[8][39] Social factors include how a person interacts in their early development with their family, friends, and other children.[40] Psychological factors include the individual's personality and temperament, shaped by their environment and learned coping skills that deal with stress.[40] These different factors together suggests that there are multiple factors that may contribute to the disorder."

[Craydar]

Any of the BPD traits conducted at the conscious level would seem sociopathic to me. For example, they may do things consciously to avoid abandonment, but the fear of real or perceived abandonment is subconscious.

[Blimblam]

The thing I remember most clearly is the projection of me as a punitive parent she was rebelling against. It was ridiculous and out of nowhere. It frustrated me and I pointed it out to her but she couldn't regulate. In hindsight I should have just hugged her but too late now.  That I am a mean daddy she needs to rebel against was projection from her unconcious transferring her daddy issues onto me unwarranted and for the most insignificant slight. Everything spiraled out from there in my case.

Hesterisge,

You are right their is no consensus. Reading masterson it seems to be truama related.  Some other stuff says 50/50 environment/ genetic predisposition. It makes sense some people are are genetically predisposed and environmental factors trigger it. I remember reading an article on a psychology site indicating it may be purely genetic in some cases as well. Most things seem to point to environment but who knows.

[guy4caligirl]

Alter many thoughts and consideration I realized that they will always be all right after all  ,because they know exactly what they're doing , it's their instinct of survival that makes them act that way and in most cases ,they use their looks and sexiness to always get what they want always Don't ever under estimate them and fall to say it's my fault no you just fell for their seduction.

Simply they out smart us !