Verbal Abuse and Ultimatums

[flowerpath]

I hate being cursed at and called names.  I've heard and experienced so much that most of the time I am numb to it, but today, after being cursed at twice, is one of those days that I feel like I cannot take it anymore. Unless I do something different, I don't see how this is going to change.  

For a boundary, when I see that things could escalate, I do start leaving the room - that's something different from what I used to do, but he's on to that now and gets his words in before I can get out of the room.  Or he will throw some comment at me as he walks out of the room and up the stairs.  I can even go out of the house and he will stick his head out the door and say whatever he wants.  A boundary like this gets me out of the way (but sometimes not fast enough) while he cools down (unless he goes outside too), but it does not stop the verbal abuse from occurring.  

I have been reading threads on verbal abuse and these seem to be the two main solutions:

1. "Validate, validate, validate."  This is supposed to get to the heart of whatever the issue is with the pwBPD, and since their issue has been addressed, then they don't get all bent out of shape.

2. From a 2012 post by Green Mango:  "The fact that they don't act this way with others is because we've let them cross this line without consequence.  When we put someone else's well being above our own in an inequitable way all manner of dysfunctional havoc ensues.  There is an appropriate response to this "i was joking you're too sensitive you know I love you" junk... .its "not in the way I need or want to love or be loved.  So knock it off or I'm out" and follow thru with it.  Empty threats make the situation worse.

The minute someone does this should be the last time not because they've changed because this is an ingrained behavior but because we've changed and you don't put up with being abused.

And psychoanalysing they why they do it or rationalizing why they do it is tempting.  But its is more helpful for all of us who have experienced this to ask ourselves why we put up with it and how we can safeguard against it."

Is there anyone here for whom "Validate, validate, validate" has stopped the cycle of verbal abuse?  Is there anyone for whom an ultimatum was voiced and the verbal abuse stopped?  He has never said he was joking.  He always justifies what he said.  I guess by the title of this thread, you can tell that I am so tired of living with this that I want to say "Knock if off, or YOU'RE out!"

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[Cat Familiar]

I hate being cursed at and called names.  I've heard and experienced so much that most of the time I am numb to it, but today, after being cursed at twice, is one of those days that I feel like I cannot take it anymore. Unless I do something different, I don't see how this is going to change. 

For a boundary, when I see that things could escalate, I do start leaving the room - that's something different from what I used to do, but he's on to that now and gets his words in before I can get out of the room.  Or he will throw some comment at me as he walks out of the room and up the stairs.  I can even go out of the house and he will stick his head out the door and say whatever he wants.  A boundary like this gets me out of the way (but sometimes not fast enough) while he cools down (unless he goes outside too), but it does not stop the verbal abuse from occurring. 

The minute someone does this should be the last time not because they've changed because this is an ingrained behavior but because we've changed and you don't put up with being abused.

Flowerpath, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this abuse. Been there, done that, more with my xBPDh than my current BPDh, but it's happened with him too.

I totally agree about refusing to be abused, and it sounds like you're doing that, but he's just too darn quick. The only thing that occurs to me is taking a time out when you see him starting to get more agitated, before the abuse starts, but that's easier to say than to do.

[waverider]

validation etc are like oiling the wheels of a machine, it helps minimize breakdowns, but it can't fix a breakdown. Neither can you, you are not a mechanic.

You leaving probably suits him, and you probably return at a time that suits him. If the behavior continues then you may have to up the boundary consequence,eg staying away longer.

Saying "knock it off or you're out" wont be taken serious, and probably trigger something else. You may have to demonstrate "knock it off or I'm out", as you have more direct control over that.

It is unlikely you will eliminate all attempts of at least being disrespectful, at least in the short run. That is part of the Disorder

[Cat21]

Hi flowerpath. I was in the same boat for a long time. Thankfully, due to enforcing the boundary of leaving right away, it's slowed down considerably. (I don't want to say stopped because I know that's wishful thinking.) For me, as soon as my uBPD would detect that I was bothered or hurt (something so small as an eye twitch), he'd dig in. I usually say nothing, but if it's bad (i.e., dysregulation), I quietly get my things and go without saying a word. If it's small, snide comments, I change the subject right away and that sometimes works.

Sometimes he yells things as I'm leaving, too. As hard it is, I don't respond at all. I've been gone for hours- I try to go for a nice walk, do some shopping, take myself out to eat. (btw, this would be happen to me late a night a lot, which makes it much harder to escape. In those instances, I threw his pillow on the couch and went to bed.) I guess what I'm trying to say is, no- validation has never worked in preventing or reducing verbal abuse. However, making it abundantly clear that I won't tolerate it, has worked. In fact, my H recently told me that he hates it when I leave because it makes him feel lonely. I certainly don't want to trigger abandonment issues (which are not a biggie in him, at least), but I think, in some strange way, it's helped him to understand that if he doesn't want to feel lonely, he shouldn't attack me.

[flowerpath]

Thanks Cat, Cat21, and waverider.  These are all helpful points.

It is unlikely you will eliminate all attempts of at least being disrespectful, at least in the short run. That is part of the Disorder

I thought about this yesterday when I was considering how specific I would have to be and the ramifications of an ultimatum. Even couples who are nons are disrespectful toward each other at times.  I’m pretty sure he would easily figure out what kinds of words are tolerable, and just do more of that in place of cursing and name calling, and up the ante.

Saying "knock it off or you're out" wont be taken serious, and probably trigger something else. You may have to demonstrate "knock it off or I'm out", as you have more direct control over that.

There are times that I would love to ask three big men friends to come over here for protection and tell him that he needs to pack up his things and go, but what could happen afterward could be worse than what goes on now.  To literally follow through with “knock it off or I’m out”, I would have to leave all of the things that I love outside of his behavior – our children and our home and all of the work that has gone into trying to make this a good place to live in spite of the behavior. 

So here I am again at finding additional ways to protect myself from this disorder. 

I quietly get my things and go without saying a word. If it's small, snide comments, I change the subject right away and that sometimes works... .As hard it is, I don't respond at all.

That’s what I’m doing too…

The only thing that occurs to me is taking a time out when you see him starting to get more agitated, before the abuse starts, but that's easier to say than to do.

Not allowing myself to be controlled and not engaging in discussions that I know will probably result in trouble are real hot spots for him right now.  Maybe for now I need to just quietly leave the room as soon as he comes in.

 

If the behavior continues then you may have to up the boundary consequence,eg staying away longer.

 

Instead of just leaving the room or going outside into the yard, where I am still within reach, I need to get in my car and go somewhere else and have fun.  That is a form of "knock it off or I'm out." 

[Grey Kitty]

The only thing that occurs to me is taking a time out when you see him starting to get more agitated, before the abuse starts, but that's easier to say than to do.

Not allowing myself to be controlled and not engaging in discussions that I know will probably result in trouble are real hot spots for him right now.  Maybe for now I need to just quietly leave the room as soon as he comes in.

Good idea.

When you mention his "hot spots", I suspect he does have some real issues that you should be willing to talk with him about. The key word here is "talk". If he is able to talk calmly about something that is bothering him, try to engage with him and work it out.

If he's not able to be respectful of you when it comes up... .time to protect yourself.

If the behavior continues then you may have to up the boundary consequence,eg staying away longer.

 

Instead of just leaving the room or going outside into the yard, where I am still within reach, I need to get in my car and go somewhere else and have fun.  That is a form of "knock it off or I'm out." 

That's the right action for you to take.

I'd suggest that the "knock it off or I'm out" thought isn't the most helpful one for you to use.

Something more like "I'm not going to accept this kind of behavior" is a better way to think about it.

[flowerpath]

I thought that one opportunity to talk calmly presented itself this evening.  Instead of walking out of the room when uBPDh walked in, I stayed and waited to see whether there was something he wanted to talk about.  He asked me about the whereabouts of one our children.  I didn't know the exact answer because this particular child is an adult, and though I have a good idea of his schedule and have a general idea of where he might be, I don't keep tabs on his every move because he is a responsible and trustworthy young man.  I wasn't in the room when our son left and he didn't come tell me where he was going, so I told uBPDh that I didn't know where our son was. The uBPDh grilled me with questions about why I didn't know exactly where he was and though I gave reasonable answers, he repeatedly belittled me for not knowing... .and as it turned out, he knew the very answer to the question he asked me!  So there you have it.  He could have simply mentioned where our son was from the beginning, but that is not the way his mind works.  And there I was again – a sitting duck. 

Later on in the evening when I quietly left the room when he came in, he said, "Goodbye!"  The direction I went was toward the bedroom, and he said, "Stay out of my room!"    (That's my room too, but I didn't respond.)  He is on to this boundary even though I haven't said a word about it.  And now as I remove myself from the room to not be a target for this behavior, he's going to try to control where I go when I leave the room?   

[Grey Kitty]

The direction I went was toward the bedroom, and he said, "Stay out of my room!"    (That's my room too, but I didn't respond.)  He is on to this boundary even though I haven't said a word about it.  And now as I remove myself from the room to not be a target for this behavior, he's going to try to control where I go when I leave the room?

Yes indeed. You will get a reaction when you start enforcing boundaries.

He's managing his internal stresses by taking crap out on you. Not a very good coping mechanism, but he's gotten used to it. You are taking that away from him. Of course he doesn't like it, and of course he does stuff to try and make you go back to the way you had been.

[waverider]

This is why boundaries are not initially about changing his reactions, as they invariable ramp up. It is about removing yourself from exposure to it and let him blow into thin air if necessary.

They are not about "stop this or else"

They are simply about "I dont need this, so I will not expose myself to it"

The former is reactive thinking, the later is proactive.

Eventually you will get in the habit of being proactive and it will relive a lot of the trapped and helpless feelings. In return the stuff you can't avoid wont hit home as hard

[Jack_50]

Flower,

Validation does not avoid the abuse.  Only use validation if you feel up to it, otherwise you'll be sent up the wall for nothing.

I agree with the rest here : remove yourself from the scene if it gets too much for you.  An important aspect, though, is to be confident of your view on this, and ignore his closing remarks as bull from a desperate person trying to hurt you in a very low-level way (anyone can come up with vile slander if they want to, but most people are decent enough not to go there).

The biggest impact is when you clearly tell him "I do not accept you treating me this way, so I'm going for a walk now. I hope you will be back to normal when I return".  From that moment on he's become non-existent for you, and you leave quietly.

It takes practice to get it right, but you'll get the hang of it.

What it does is that you are now the one judging him, and he has to live up to your standards.  Of course he fails, and he will make a lot of fuss about it, but if you can consistently put him in his place whenever he starts the abusive talk, he has no choice but to bend.  Remember, he's the one who doesn't like to be lonely.

Jack

[Cat Familiar]

The uBPDh grilled me with questions about why I didn't know exactly where he was and though I gave reasonable answers, he repeatedly belittled me for not knowing... .and as it turned out, he knew the very answer to the question he asked me!  So there you have it. 

Later on in the evening when I quietly left the room when he came in, he said, "Goodbye!"  And now as I remove myself from the room to not be a target for this behavior, he's going to try to control where I go when I leave the room?   

I hate the "grilling" and when I catch myself attempting to respond to it. I think so many of us here were trained to be good polite boys and girls and to be helpful. This bites us in the butt when our pwBPD is setting a trap to verbally abuse us.

I hate that "goodbye" sh!t when I leave a room. "Where are you going?" he will ask when he turns off the TV in his studio (that we were watching together) and goes over to his computer. Like I'm supposed to just sit there with nothing to do, watching him!

[flowerpath]

Thank you all.   I’m gonna get a handle on this.   I will have to be more alert to be able to judge whether he truly wants to discuss something meaningful or just stir up some kind of trouble... .and always put my car keys in the same place! 

3 possible reasons for the upswing in the verbal pokes:

1. An invalidation over something minor a couple of weeks ago and I’m still paying for it.  Short term pain, long term gain. 

2. Boundaries.   Can’t believe how all of these years I’ve stood around and watched and listened to this stuff in action.  Goodbye to the same ol’ same ol’. 

3. Children and I are seeing a counselor.   My uBPDh was not expecting that, and the fact that this counselor has a lot of experience with domestic violence and anger management cases is gnawing at him.  He says he's tired of all the lies that are being spread about him [feeling vs. fact] and that he needs to get his own counselor.  Yep.

I have a lot to learn and I know it’ll be a few steps forward and a step or two back at times.  There was mention in another thread about how God doesn’t give you more than you can handle.  Though I wouldn't even try to guess the reason for all of this, I’m thinking he’s wanted to put a little more muscle on me for quite some time, and I think I’ve finally found the right workout. 

[formflier]

   I will have to be more alert to be able to judge whether he truly wants to discuss something meaningful or just stir up some kind of trouble...

Can you explain this more?  I'm not sure why his intentions or "wants" matter.


I'm thinking that it is more important you judge the actions... .much easier to judge.

Judging intentions... .is not easy to do... .and high likelihood of getting it wrong

[flowerpath]

    I will have to be more alert to be able to judge whether he truly wants to discuss something meaningful or just stir up some kind of trouble...

Can you explain this more?  I'm not sure why his intentions or "wants" matter.


I'm thinking that it is more important you judge the actions... .much easier to judge.

Judging intentions... .is not easy to do... .and high likelihood of getting it wrong

Good point, formflier.   Considering how many times I've been caught by surprise as a result of misjudging his intentions, and after all of this talk about boundaries, you'd think that I would have responded to the actions by leaving the room instead justifying and explaining in the midst of what was going on.  That was right after I wrote (here in this thread!) that I need to just get in my car and go!  I was thrown off because I misjudged his intentions. 

   

[ColdEthyl]

The uBPDh grilled me with questions about why I didn't know exactly where he was and though I gave reasonable answers, he repeatedly belittled me for not knowing... .and as it turned out, he knew the very answer to the question he asked me!  So there you have it. 

Later on in the evening when I quietly left the room when he came in, he said, "Goodbye!"  And now as I remove myself from the room to not be a target for this behavior, he's going to try to control where I go when I leave the room?   

I hate the "grilling" and when I catch myself attempting to respond to it. I think so many of us here were trained to be good polite boys and girls and to be helpful. This bites us in the butt when our pwBPD is setting a trap to verbally abuse us.

I hate that "goodbye" sh!t when I leave a room. "Where are you going?" he will ask when he turns off the TV in his studio (that we were watching together) and goes over to his computer. Like I'm supposed to just sit there with nothing to do, watching him!

haha! My husband will sometimes start playing youtube music videos on the TV after a show ends (doesn't ask me what I want to do, like it's not our tv) and if I'm not up to listening to music, Ill grab a book or my Ipad, and he gets butthurt about it. Really, dude? I just shrug and tell him I'm not into that right now.