I have seen the Apocalypse, and the zombies aren't that scary...

[jedimaster]

In 33 years of marriage, I have never been willing to seriously ponder the worst-case scenario.  But I felt like it was important to sit down and really take stock of the situation and take a hard cold look at what-if, and what could/would I do in that case.

It turns out, it doesn't look that bad.

We are trying to finish our house.  It will be ginormous, thanks to her.  Over 3000 sq. ft, 4 br, 3-1/2 baths.  One bathroom has never been finished.  Right now it's a rather unique closet in that is has a toilet and a window.  The house would have been finished years and dollars ago if we [she] could have stuck to a plan for oh, say, 24 hours.  We would go to bed with a perfectly logical, affordable design and the next morning all that was gone and suddenly we had to have 4 stories, turrets and a moat.

All that to say I have become intrigued by the idea of tiny houses, those beautiful little <500 sq.ft. micro-homes.  I believe I could live in one the rest of my days.  So in discussing marriage situation this week I was told of a family property lot that already has well water, sewer, and electric hookup, and that if anything happened at home I was welcome to use it as long as necessary.

So I did some research and crunched some numbers.  If the marriage doesn't make it, I could take my share of the equity in this monster house, buy a tiny home and a decent used car, and live debt free and quite comfortably while paying a generous alimony.

In happier times, we used to joke that we stayed together because we couldn't afford to split up.  Now it looks as if it might be the opposite.

But, what I want to do, and any thoughts are welcome, is not go around thinking I'd be better off on my own.  I want this new found knowledge to help me make this marriage work, by giving me confidence that I can make it if I have to.  As I said on another post, I have looked over the edge, and the cliff isn't really as high as my wife has led me to believe. 

I welcome any comments from anyone who has had to go all the way to the brink, either by calling their SO's bluff or by drawing a line themselves.  How did it go, what did you do, how well did it work? 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Well... .you can look back in my past posts... .

My gut says you'll know when it is time to stand up for your values... .and let the chips fall where they may fall.

Our youngest ... .about 1.5 yrs old at the time... .was discovered in the road.  I was inside... .wife was outside with the other kids.  Apparently the 11 yr old, 8 year old and 6 year old (I think I have those ages right) were supposed to be watching the baby... .but wife was there too.

So... she drags the older three inside to back of house and proceeds to deliver a whipping... .that was... .the Apocalypse... .

Never before in my life have a I heard... .and unfortunately seen... .such a thing.

I stood in between my wife and one of kids to keep her from getting to the child.

Well... in counseling and in other talks my wife would not commit... .in writing... .to no longer use physical discipline... .so... .I turned the case over to Department of Social Services.

Lot's of drama... .but we ended up in family counseling and the entire situation is much better now.

But... .the point is... .I knew that there was good chance I was tossing out my marriage by doing the report.  I was clear that my kids and my values about what I would and wouldn't allow... .was more important.

So... Jedi... .I think you will know if you ever get to that point.

[Grey Kitty]

  You will make better choices in your marriage if you don't feel trapped in it.

For the record, the tiny house sounds fantastic. I'd love one. I'd want a 2000 square foot shop building alongside, if I could afford it!

[jedimaster]

You will make better choices in your marriage if you don't feel trapped in it.

For the record, the tiny house sounds fantastic. I'd love one. I'd want a 2000 square foot shop building alongside, if I could afford it!

Thanks, GK.  I feel that way too.  I have already felt so much more empowered just realizing what BPD is and there are tools and techniques to help  cope with it. 

I guess I posted this just to keep myself accountable.  When I started looking at the "doomsday scenario" and realized I might actually come out of it with my skin on, it started to look really attractive.  Now that I have a contingency plan I don't want to dwell on it, but use the confidence it gave me to really give my best effort to the marriage.  I don't want it to be the equivalent of the guy who gets winked at in the bar and decides he's found a new soul mate.  I'd rather be the guy who's flattered by the flirting and takes his newfound confidence home to his wife   

But that said, when it all boils down I'm still dealing with BPD and things are never "normal."  So I feel relieved knowing that I can give it my best shot and allow what happens to happen, and I will be OK financially as well as emotionally no matter what.

First order of business is to finish the Big House as quickly and cost-effectively as possible.  It won't be her dream house, but then it was never going to be anyway.

[formflier]

First order of business is to finish the Big House as quickly and cost-effectively as possible.  It won't be her dream house, but then it was never going to be anyway.

Do you want to finish it?  Is this your dream... or hers?

[jedimaster]

First order of business is to finish the Big House as quickly and cost-effectively as possible.  It won't be her dream house, but then it was never going to be anyway.

Do you want to finish it?  Is this your dream... or hers?

Well one, yes I would like to finish it.  It's going to be very nice regardless.  Two, we have to finish it.  It's not in salable condition otherwise.  Completed it will bring quite a bit more than the money that's going into it.  But, it will never be her dream house because she can't be satisfied.  There are things in the house now that she designed and worked on herself that she complains about constantly.  I just want to get it finished so it's not constantly hanging over us, and so if things blow apart the assets can be properly divided.  It would be to her financial benefit as well as mine.

[waverider]

First off it is easier to stand by your values and boundaries when you know you can, and are prepared to, leave if you have to.

Do not think of it in the context of being undecided. Rather that you have choices, hence you have a better degree of control over your future.

Knowledge of your choices should be followed by clarification of your values and boundaries.

Even if things get hairy having somewhere to go even on a temporary basis relieves any feelings of being trapped.

Your house may never be finished. I also believe it is easy to make being finished a false deadline. The house "may" be finished if your RS succeeds. It should not be a deciding factor or it can cause you to make unwise choices, by adding extra pressure.

[formflier]

  It should not be a deciding factor or it can cause you to make unwise choices, by adding extra pressure.

Yeah... .Jedi.  I think you should think about this some.

The house seems to be a sideshow.  pwBPD traits tend to emphasize sideshows to avoid dealing with main issue... or core issue.

I worry that if you put a lot of energy in to house... .and finish it.  The bar will be moved and new sideshow will appear.

Better strategy.  Put an appropriate amount of work into house... .and an appropriate amount into "working on" core issue.

Realize you only have so much energy.  Spend it wisely.

[jedimaster]

 It should not be a deciding factor or it can cause you to make unwise choices, by adding extra pressure.

Yeah... .Jedi.  I think you should think about this some.

The house seems to be a sideshow.  pwBPD traits tend to emphasize sideshows to avoid dealing with main issue... or core issue.

I worry that if you put a lot of energy in to house... .and finish it.  The bar will be moved and new sideshow will appear.

Better strategy.  Put an appropriate amount of work into house... .and an appropriate amount into "working on" core issue.

Realize you only have so much energy.  Spend it wisely.

OK, no the house is not a deciding factor.  It's just something that is in the way.  It's half finished and it has to be done in some fashion or (a) we can't sell it if we needed to; and (b) my homeowner's insurance is going to have a fit come renewal time.  So that is a side issue, but it needs to be done so if the worst happens, it doesn't cause unnecessary problems.  I'm very aware that it's a sideshow.  The bar has been moved so many times it isn't funny.  She has (once again) washed her hands of it and told me to "just get it done", so that is what I'm going to do.  

My whole point was that for a long time I've operated under the impression that a divorce would be financially ruinous, and so I've put up with an incredible amount of verbal abuse and stress over the years.  Now that I've actually looked into it, I find that our situation has changed to the point that is no longer the case (if indeed it ever was).  With that knowledge, hopefully I can now just put that aside and work on the relationship, but realizing that if it gets unbearable, there is a way out, and it won't be an apocalypse.  

I appreciate everybody's advice and comments.  I realize that with practically all of us on here, our issues and problems have layers and nuances that are hard to express in a forum.  I'm not going to make a decision about a lifelong relationship based on a house, small or large.  It was just a big load off of me to realize that I don't have to feel trapped by circumstances.  I can choose to stay as long as I think there's a chance to make things better.  And if it turns out there doesn't seem to be a way to make it better, I can choose to leave.  That is incredibly freeing to me.  If and/or when it comes down to having to make a stand, I hope to be able to draw on the experience and knowledge of the others on here to handle it the best way possible.  

[waverider]

Clearing the decks and separating reality from perceptions is important. I think it is what the principle of the Staying Board is, to gain clarity about what is possible and what is not, to separate moving forward (wise choice mode) from hanging on out of desperation (default mode).

I get the house reno bit. My previous marriage fell apart when I was in mid reno (not BPD related). In fact changing the goal from creating your dream home to getting it finished so you could sell it and separate was a very hard thing to do.

[jedimaster]

I don't mean to hijack my own thread for a discussion of the house, but the builder came by today and gave me a final price and start date (Jan 5).  So I told my wife (she was out; another long story) when she got home.  I was waiting for the "here's how you're going to do it" reaction, but nothing.  Just, "Oh, great!"

Which lasted until I got out of earshot.

Within 5 minutes she was working to manipulate her mother into "wanting" the whole downstairs for herself, and making all kinds of changes to the existing house; moving the water heater and cutting in new doors, etc.

This continued in the bedroom--"What are you going to do about this?", etc, etc.  Death by a thousand pinpricks.

I think she is testing the limits to see where/if I will bend, and where she might get a nose under the tent.  This is how it has gone in the past, and it always ended up in a mess with nothing to show for it but wasted time and money.

So far I have answered her calmly and patiently, and tried to give each of her comments a full listen.  Almost all of them are either not practical, not affordable, or not necessary.  But I've tried not to point that out directly, and promised to ask the builder about them.  One of them, moving the water heater a couple of feet over to make more room under the stairs, is actually feasible and wouldn't take much time or money. 

The kitchen is a completely open floor plan, and she liked the idea of bringing in all of the cabinets and fixtures and allowing her to move them around and decide the layout. (This is feasible; plumbing will not be an issue.) 

The real trick is allowing her to help and have input on things like that, so she feels included, and yet hold the line on the crazy ideas and budget busters.  As pwBPD do, she takes "We can't afford that," or, "No, you can't cut that beam in half; it's holding up the house" as personally invalidating.  Having a very tight, absolutely fixed budget is turning out to be a help.  When we were trying to come up with a cost before getting the funding it was like nailing jello to the wall.  She seems to be able to better grasp things knowing there are only X dollars and no way to get more.  It's now or not at all. 

So the ride begins.  Unfortunately there's almost a month before work can start, so that's a whole month for her to try to take over the project and add on a stable for unicorns or gargoyles on the roof.  Going to take a lot of detachment.  The Force is flowing around me... .nothing can touch me... .I am at peace... .I am at peace... .I am at peace... .


I SAID I AM AT PEACE, DAMMIT! 

[waverider]

why am I not surprised

[Grey Kitty]

So far I have answered her calmly and patiently, and tried to give each of her comments a full listen.  Almost all of them are either not practical, not affordable, or not necessary.  But I've tried not to point that out directly, and promised to ask the builder about them.

The boundary approach has some validity.

Don't try to convince her that her idea is unfeasible, unaffordable, or unneccesary. (i.e. JADE all over the place!)

If I recall correctly, she punted on this remodel, and told you to just do it, right?

Instead convince her that you ARE going to just do it, and this is how you are going to do it.

Whatever you do, keep her from talking to the builder!

Hmmmm... .you might want to quietly give the builder a special instruction: Ask him to be as polite as he can, even noncommittal, but be very clear: If he wants to get paid, he's not to take direction from your wife, only from you. And you will handle her.

[formflier]

Whatever you do, keep her from talking to the builder!

Hmmm... .and the great debate begins.  I was going to say have her talk to the builder...

GK is wise to say talk to builder ahead of time.

"playing telephone" is a dangerous game with pwBPD... .best to get out of the communication chain.  So... .in this case... .instead of listening to wife... .set meeting with builder for a week from now.   Ask wife to bring list to meeting.  You will be available the day prior for a pre-meeting with wife to discuss this.

So... the builder can "invalidate" the ideas... .not you.

You will be unavailable to discuss the project before then.

If she talks to others... that is her business... .

Thoughts?

[Cat Familiar]

So far I have answered her calmly and patiently, and tried to give each of her comments a full listen.  Almost all of them are either not practical, not affordable, or not necessary.  But I've tried not to point that out directly, and promised to ask the builder about them.

Whatever you do, keep her from talking to the builder!

Hmmmm... .you might want to quietly give the builder a special instruction: Ask him to be as polite as he can, even noncommittal, but be very clear: If he wants to get paid, he's not to take direction from your wife, only from you. And you will handle her.

Jedimaster, I totally understand the issue of living amidst a giant unfinished house project. And I completely agree with Grey Kitty--do not let her hijack the project!

I built a little house for myself after my first divorce. When my current BPDh (I've had 2 BPDh's you'd think I'd learn!) and I decided to live together, we started a giant housebuilding project, adding 1400 square feet to my little house and building a studio for him. Unfortunately the contractor we chose, though a good carpenter, was a disaster at keeping to budget and a crook. (I had misgivings about him from the beginning--I should have paid more attention to my intuition.) So we had to fire him and were stuck with a half-finished house (had to tarp the roof during rainy season.)

We had to take out a big loan to finish--originally we thought we'd have money to spare after the project was done. It took a long time, but it's done and it's beautiful. But the whole process was painful.

You absolutely need to finish your house and be done with it. It's just too stressful to live with an incomplete house.

[jedimaster]

Thanks everyone!  Some great and helpful input--this forum is such a lifesaver some days!  For the moment I think I'm going to hold formflier's suggestion in reserve and go with not having a 3-way meeting.  My thinking is at the moment even though she is poking and prodding to see what I will cave on, she still insists she is "not involved" in this.  So I don't want to give her an avenue to involve herself again.  If that approach starts to break down I can try calling a meeting and let him explain what can and can't be done.

The builder is a long time friend of the family (I was ring bearer in his wedding as a child) and is utterly trustworthy.  So fortunately that isn't an issue.  Plus, he knows the score with the wife.  He actually let her help him with some of the work on the current part of the house, and she would listen to him when she wouldn't listen to anyone else.  But he knows what she is like and he also knows about how things have been going the last few months.  If I have to bring her in to the discussions that will be a plus, but for now I'm going to try to run interference and let him focus on building, as fast as he can before she can wreck the train 

I certainly sympathize Cat Familiar.  One of my hopes is that even if I have to keep her at arm's length through most of the project, and even though I know she will criticize every possible detail and some that don't even exist having it finished at long last will perhaps lower the stress level a bit.  I'm past the point of caring whether she ever compliments it or expresses satisfaction, because I know she very likely won't.  But if it seems to ease her dissatisfaction a bit that will be plenty.  That's a low standard to settle for but I'm used to that by now.

[Grey Kitty]

  Sounds like you have the absolute RIGHT builder!

And he should be forever grateful if you manage to hold the line with your wife, and keep him from having to deal with her much!

I do agree that there is SOME value in letting him be the 'bad guy' with your wife, and keeping that in reserve sounds great.

I think it sets a MUCH better precedent with your wife for you to validate a bit, listen for good ideas like the hot water heater, and then say something like "You punted this whole project to me. I'm doing it now. Discussion over."

She obviously won't LIKE it, but she will respect you more for it in the end.

[jedimaster]

Sounds like you have the absolute RIGHT builder!

And he should be forever grateful if you manage to hold the line with your wife, and keep him from having to deal with her much!

He is a retired high school math teacher who had a reputation for being a nice guy who ran a no-nonsense classroom.  If he has to deal with her he knows how to draw the line.  Plus he knows I have the checkbook 

[formflier]

 

A middle ground is to say things like "That is an interesting idea... .".  Don't use great or wonderful... .that implies you like it.

Then... .if she presses... .and she will... .let her know you haven't talked to the builder.  Then... .when you have talked to the builder... .he said no.  When she asks why... .explain that he started to explain... .but it sounded complicated... .so you just took no for an answer and moved on.

Basically... you don't explain why... .you don't have information... .you are doing the best that you can for her... .it's not your fault... .

Boy honey... .this house stuff is complicated and frustrating... .isn't it.

[GaGrl]

I personally love the phrases "in scope" and "out of scope."  Once you've determined $$$ and objectives, that's your scope.  So anything that deviates has to be in-scope -- or the price goes up.

[jedimaster]

All that to say I have become intrigued by the idea of tiny houses, those beautiful little <500 sq.ft. micro-homes.  I believe I could live in one the rest of my days.  So in discussing marriage situation this week I was told of a family property lot that already has well water, sewer, and electric hookup, and that if anything happened at home I was welcome to use it as long as necessary.

So I did some research and crunched some numbers.  If the marriage doesn't make it, I could take my share of the equity in this monster house, buy a tiny home and a decent used car, and live debt free and quite comfortably while paying a generous alimony.

Just a brief followup-- I have a friend who runs a non-profit that promotes energy efficiency and alternative energy.  They recently constructed a model tiny home to take around and demo various building techniques and energy saving measures.  So this week I had a chance to go by their office and walk around in the tiny house.  It is great--feels very spacious and not cramped at all.  Quite cozy.  Even though their particular model would probably not be my preference, I could see myself being very comfortable in something similar.

So now I have some tangible confirmation of my opinion of tiny homes, I know that my contingency plan is in place and can be put to rest.  I am going to work as hard as I can to stabilize and rescue this marriage.  But if she decides to take us down another path, then I have seen her zombies and they don't scare me any more.