I dysregulated...

[Cat Familiar]

The other night my husband went into one of his elaborate pity parties and kept telling me that "No one cares about me," "You hate me," "I do so much for everyone and no one appreciates me," "You wish I'd just move out and send you money," "I should just go away," etc.

I tried validating him, using SET. Nothing worked. Part of the problem was that he had been drinking. When he started verbally abusing me (the f-yous) I left the room but he followed me. I told him that verbal abuse was unacceptable.

I made the mistake of trying to reason with him. He told me he wanted reassurance, but I wasn't giving him any. I told him that when I tried to hug him and tell him I loved him, he pushed me away.

The conversation went back to the "You hate me" territory and frankly, I was beginning to agree with him, but I did not express that.

Finally I got so frustrated that I started crying and punching the mattress. It occurred to me the incredible rage that batterers must feel and I was glad that I have the self control to take out my fury on an helpless mattress instead.

My first mistake was to continue the conversation with a drunk, but he's been in the same territory sober at other times. Actually, he wasn't totally drunk, but somewhat impaired.

It wasn't until I totally lost it that he even started to pay attention to what I was saying. I'm such a rational and unemotional person typically that it was probably a bit shocking to see me that way. We both ended the evening in tears and hugging. I went to bed by myself as he wanted to stay up later (it was already two AM).

The next day he was contrite and apologetic for a lot of things. I really don't want to get to that place of dysregulation, but it got his attention.

Any thoughts?

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[formflier]

 

First... thanks for sharing this event... .must have been hard to write about it.  I think it is important that we share the highs ... .and the lows... .and the in between.

 

Now... as for "what I think".

This is always guesswork... but here is my theory.

He "wanted" or "needed" something from you.  Maybe not even consciously.  So... he sat about trying to get it... .and since he has BPD traits... .it is no shock he went about it in an unhealthy manner.

He "got" something from you and was better the next day. 

Trick is that next time... .you give him a "healthy" reaction... .

Again... this is guesswork... .but it's my best guess at how the disorder played out.

Thanks again for sharing

[Cat Familiar]

He "wanted" or "needed" something from you.  Maybe not even consciously.  So... he sat about trying to get it... .and since he has BPD traits... .it is no shock he went about it in an unhealthy manner.

He "got" something from you and was better the next day.  

Trick is that next time... .you give him a "healthy" reaction... .

Thanks, Formflier. You're right. He did get to see my "passionate side." I'm typically so logical and rational that I get accused of being "distant" and "remote" and even once, by a girlfriend of being Aspbergers, which happened in a restaurant when she was in the midst of dissolving into a crying jag about yet another "boyfriend" who had let her down. I didn't know what I was supposed to do and I tried to comfort her by analyzing the situation, which was not what she wanted.

The Aspie diagnosis actually kind of amused me and I did look into it. It's a spectrum disorder and it's definitely possible that I'm at the far end of the spectrum. I do tend to be socially appropriate and I do pick up verbal and facial cues--I certainly could increase my emotional intelligence, no doubt.

However, I think I modeled my dad, who was very logical and precise. My mother was BPD and I despised her emotional meltdowns and her inconsistent behavior. So what do I do, I marry two pwBPD and have a friend who, if not bipolar is another pwBPD.

In this case with my husband, I'm not sure what a "healthy" response would have looked like. Obviously I would have not gotten involved in a discussion with him when he was impaired.

Earlier in the evening when he hadn't been drinking, I tried to give him an overview of the negative spiral we get in. I told him that he frequently rejects my expressions of love (I tell him I love him or I hug him and he contracts and pulls away.) Then he tells me I don't give him support and love. I told him when he rejects me, it trains me to not keep trying. Then he said, "Oh, it's my fault, I'm bad."

Later I offered to draw the cycle to show him the dynamic that is created when he can't accept the love I offer. "I know what a vicious circle looks like," he said. So at least, I got confirmation that my message was received.

I apologized for my part in this mess. I told him that I felt resourceless in the face of his drug and alcohol abuse and I was afraid I'd wake up to him being cold, blue and dead one morning. This he took as more criticism, but I truly don't think he gets that by combining prescription drugs and alcohol that he is putting his life at risk. I finally decided to tell his doctor when I have my yearly physical that he is combining muscle relaxants, sleeping pills and pain meds with alcohol. (Hopefully not all at once.) I really don't think he sees what he is risking. Years ago I went through the EMT training and there were times in the past where he was non-responsive. I used all my knowledge, which certainly is not up to date, to assess whether I should call 911 and hoped and prayed I made the right decision when I didn't. Next time, I will.

He needs a hefty dose of consequences and some embarrassment.

[Cat Familiar]

I've tried to be on an even keel and very rational. In doing that, I've seemingly valued everyone else's emotions above my own. I figured I could always cope with whatever came my way. Now I'm realizing that perhaps my husband actually wants me to be more emotional, rather than so steady and grounded. In fact, he accuses me frequently of "being on my high horse." Perhaps my logical nature is coming across as arrogance. Any ideas?

[believer55]

CF - that conversation and situation you posted is exactly the way I am living my life - it is amazing that so many of us are living with this kind of behaviour. My SO has admitted that during an event he wants to push me and push me until I crack. It's like he feels so pent up inside he needs to have a reason to come down and that is only when I am on the verge of leaving or a breakdown. Then he feels his role has changed from being the "victim" ie the one with the problem to the carer and he can redirect his emotions into that. Because he can't pinpoint what has caused his anger he needs me to act badly to say - "There we go - I'm angry at you". He also thinks that I think I am better than him when I try to stay even keeled and logical. I find I am shutting myself down a bit now. How are you going with handling this?

[Grey Kitty]

I've done too much rational.

I've been kinda good at stuffing my feelings. When something really starts to bug me, I always get in touch with those feelings, and respond pretty well.

The lower level stuff... .I've done a fantastic job of checking out on.

Lately I've been doing better at connecting with my own feelings.

My thought is that you will figure it out when you are ready to connect with yours. Do it for yourself. Worrying about what feelings your spouse wants you to have is ludicrous.

[Cat Familiar]

CF - that conversation and situation you posted is exactly the way I am living my life - it is amazing that so many of us are living with this kind of behaviour. My SO has admitted that during an event he wants to push me and push me until I crack. It's like he feels so pent up inside he needs to have a reason to come down and that is only when I am on the verge of leaving or a breakdown. Then he feels his role has changed from being the "victim" ie the one with the problem to the carer and he can redirect his emotions into that. Because he can't pinpoint what has caused his anger he needs me to act badly to say - "There we go - I'm angry at you". He also thinks that I think I am better than him when I try to stay even keeled and logical. I find I am shutting myself down a bit now. How are you going with handling this?

BINGO! I think you've figured it out for me.

My husband loves being in the mentor role. Now that he no longer is working, he has no opportunity to do that professionally. He seems drawn to "helping" people, particularly women with their businesses. Since I'm so self sufficient and the things I do on a day to day basis are ranch work, animal care and building repairs, he has none of these skills, so his self-esteem cannot be enhanced by helping me.

Also that I'm so emotionally stable, while he has mood swings, must be galling. I really got a sense that he was happy that I was dysregulated so that he could "help" me and be supportive. Definitely shifting his role to care taking, which usually is not our dynamic.

Oh and absolutely he thinks I think I'm so full of myself when I remain logical when he's out of control. Actually it's a role I've spent a lifetime doing, ever since I was a child. Metaphorically, it's like being a cop and talking a potential suicide off the ledge and back into the building. I've had to do this for my mother, my first husband and now with him. Fortunately he's not suicidal, however my first husband was, but it's a similar dynamic, trying to make sense of crazy thinking and help them calm down.

I'm kind of a one-trick-pony in that I use my logical side in lots of contexts. Typically it works well, but I'm thinking that perhaps it's not the best strategy sometimes. And part of the issue is that I feel like I suppress the expression of my emotions because he's in crisis. Sort of like he's already claimed that territory.

[Cat Familiar]

I've done too much rational.

I've been kinda good at stuffing my feelings. When something really starts to bug me, I always get in touch with those feelings, and respond pretty well.

The lower level stuff... .I've done a fantastic job of checking out on.

Lately I've been doing better at connecting with my own feelings.

My thought is that you will figure it out when you are ready to connect with yours. Do it for yourself. Worrying about what feelings your spouse wants you to have is ludicrous.

I'm not sure what you mean by checking out on lower level stuff.

He's accused me of not knowing what I'm feeling. The truth of the matter is that I know exactly what I'm feeling. It's sort of a calculus as to what I choose to express. In my FOO, it was too dangerous for me to express my feelings, so I just told them to my dog. I guess that was the start of a lifelong love for animals. I could totally be myself with them, while humans were too unpredictable and potentially incendiary.

So, while I still don't trust him about sharing my feelings unreservedly, I'm wondering if I should disclose a bit more.

[Grey Kitty]

And part of the issue is that I feel like I suppress the expression of my emotions because he's in crisis. Sort of like he's already claimed that territory.

Oh boy do I know that feeling. It was like her constant crisis took all the emotional energy out of the room and didn't allow me any. Or perhaps I didn't want to take any of it because I'd already had enough of emotions, and they weren't even mine.  Once in a while, more often as my wife got a bit better... .there were times I was feeling really down. It was a real shock to both of us for me to be falling apart and her to be comforting me.

OTOH, most of my falling apart has been due to her behavior, abuse years back, and cheating this time, and in neither case did I want to be comforted by her, even though she tried.

I did occasionally get hit by something unrelated to her, which went better.

I'm not sure what you mean by checking out on lower level stuff.

Perhaps I should say lower priority stuff. I checked out on what my desires and my dreams and my hopes.

I was still good at noticing I was hurt or angry, and responding kinda well.

[Cat Familiar]

And part of the issue is that I feel like I suppress the expression of my emotions because he's in crisis. Sort of like he's already claimed that territory.

Oh boy do I know that feeling. It was like her constant crisis took all the emotional energy out of the room and didn't allow me any. Or perhaps I didn't want to take any of it because I'd already had enough of emotions, and they weren't even mine.  

I checked out on what my desires and my dreams and my hopes.

I can really relate to being fed up with "emotions," particularly when my husband gets all bent out of shape over something insignificant such as the owner of a restaurant that we frequently visit is rushed or overwhelmed and isn't as friendly as he'd like--then my husband will characterize this as being "unfriendly" and get sulky and hurt.

Geez, I just want to say "Grow up--not everything revolves around you! People get busy, have their own issues, don't take it so personally." Of course, I don't say this, but I think: what a waste of energy to get so emotionally invested in such trivial things.

Oh and checking out on my desires, dreams and hopes--did that with my first husband. Thankfully I'm not repeating that now, but get accused of being "totally into your own interests" and I think--what's wrong with that?

[ColdEthyl]

And part of the issue is that I feel like I suppress the expression of my emotions because he's in crisis. Sort of like he's already claimed that territory.

Oh boy do I know that feeling. It was like her constant crisis took all the emotional energy out of the room and didn't allow me any. Or perhaps I didn't want to take any of it because I'd already had enough of emotions, and they weren't even mine.  

I checked out on what my desires and my dreams and my hopes.

I can really relate to being fed up with "emotions," particularly when my husband gets all bent out of shape over something insignificant such as the owner of a restaurant that we frequently visit is rushed or overwhelmed and isn't as friendly as he'd like--then my husband will characterize this as being "unfriendly" and get sulky and hurt.

Geez, I just want to say "Grow up--not everything revolves around you! People get busy, have their own issues, don't take it so personally." Of course, I don't say this, but I think: what a waste of energy to get so emotionally invested in such trivial things.

Oh and checking out on my desires, dreams and hopes--did that with my first husband. Thankfully I'm not repeating that now, but get accused of being "totally into your own interests" and I think--what's wrong with that?

The thing with the restaurant owner... .THAT'S why it's been getting easier for me to listen to my dBPDh, understand and just... .forgive him. It truly must SUCK to have that kind of stuff on your brain all the time, to the point where it bothers you. My husband will mention little things like that when he's upset, and he will repeat it 4-5 times in that day usually.

[formflier]

 

Also remember that what the mention... .even if 4 or 5 times in one day... .may not be exactly what they are upset about.


Look for a theme... .

So... if the owner is not "paying attention"... .the fear to be validated may be that people don't like him... .or don't want to be around him.

Be careful playing too much of a guessing game... but if you stay general... you should be ok.

Allen

[ColdEthyl]

Also remember that what the mention... .even if 4 or 5 times in one day... .may not be exactly what they are upset about.


Look for a theme... .

So... if the owner is not "paying attention"... .the fear to be validated may be that people don't like him... .or don't want to be around him.

Be careful playing too much of a guessing game... but if you stay general... you should be ok.

Allen

wow TY, formflier! I never thought of that!

[Cat Familiar]

Also remember that what the mention... .even if 4 or 5 times in one day... .may not be exactly what they are upset about.


Look for a theme... .

So... if the owner is not "paying attention"... .the fear to be validated may be that people don't like him... .or don't want to be around him.

Be careful playing too much of a guessing game... but if you stay general... you should be ok.

Allen

wow TY, formflier! I never thought of that!

Thanks, Ethyl and Formflier, yes the big themes are "Nobody likes me" and "Nobody wants to be around me."  

It truly must be hellish inside his head. He's always muttering "sh!t" and similar expletives under his breath. When I ask what's wrong, usually he'll reply, "nothing," but every now and then he'll tell me he's replaying something stupid he said or did. (I remember doing this sort of thing when I was 12.)

[Mie]

Being always logical and calm is exhausting, even though it would be ones true nature.

It happened sometimes, that I lost it, shouted at him too, and he said: finally you show some emotion! (And I feel idiotic behaving like that).

Once I went angry because of his behavior generally, and imitated him when he sees a piece of paper in a wrong place. With a furious expression and gestures I yelled: What th f... .Is this f... .Piece of sh... .doing here! You put it there just to piss me off! Or did you forget it there you demented b___? You are all f... .the same, idiots. No wonder this whole f... .country is in economical crisis!... .

He looked amused and asked: am I really that bad? I said: yes, this was nothing. And he said: It's not about the piece of paper, you know.

Yeah, I know.

[believer55]

Yes FF - the theme for my uBPDh is definitely fear of abadonment (he even said this himself last night which was a big step for him) and the fear that people don't like him. Facebook has been a bad thing for him. If people don't like his posts he gets upset. Even had a go at my Dad the other night about him not liking something SO put on there. He has lost a few friends lately and constantly says his family don't care about him because they are not on the phone to him all the time. These fears of his that people will disappear from his life (his Dad died suddenly when he was 16) or not want to be with him are really what is behind his behaviours. He needs constant reassurance every day that I love him and will not leave him.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes FF - the theme for my uBPDh is definitely fear of abadonment (he even said this himself last night which was a big step for him) and the fear that people don't like him... .[or] want to be with him are really what is behind his behaviours. He needs constant reassurance every day that I love him and will not leave him.

My H does the very same thing. He's always asking if I love him like a hurt little child. I tell him I love him and he asks, ":)o you really?" Sometimes I say, "No I love you too?" It's like he forgets it needs to be reciprocal.

And yes, Mie, it gets exhausting to be logical and calm, even if that's how I typically am. I've tried playacting and being dramatic back to him (and I feel really stupid too).

When he saw my meltdown, there was almost a gleam in his eyes. Like good--I've taken her down a notch. It's like he thinks I'm looking down on him when I'm rational and logical. Truth be told, I'm a bit freaked out watching him come unglued--so in a way I guess I'm judging him.

[Cat Familiar]

Interesting--after my unraveling a few nights ago, we're getting along better than we have for a long time. I think he enjoyed seeing my weakness so he could feel superior.

I'm not planning on using this as a strategy, but it certainly brought about an interesting and positive change.   

[ColdEthyl]

Yes FF - the theme for my uBPDh is definitely fear of abadonment (he even said this himself last night which was a big step for him) and the fear that people don't like him... .[or] want to be with him are really what is behind his behaviours. He needs constant reassurance every day that I love him and will not leave him.

My H does the very same thing. He's always asking if I love him like a hurt little child. I tell him I love him and he asks, ":)o you really?" Sometimes I say, "No I love you too?" It's like he forgets it needs to be reciprocal.

And yes, Mie, it gets exhausting to be logical and calm, even if that's how I typically am. I've tried playacting and being dramatic back to him (and I feel really stupid too).

When he saw my meltdown, there was almost a gleam in his eyes. Like good--I've taken her down a notch. It's like he thinks I'm looking down on him when I'm rational and logical. Truth be told, I'm a bit freaked out watching him come unglued--so in a way I guess I'm judging him.

Winter/Holiday time is horrible for my husband. This is the time he gets the most dysregulation. He's been asking me on an almost daily basis if I love him, when I say I do he says he doesn't know why. And like you said Cat, he asks me like a hurt child. In small voice, "really?" and his eyes light up when I confirm it. I deserve better, he's lucky to have me, etc etc over and over. In a slightly slower rate, I've been late a few times from work. The end of the year is our busiest and traffic is thicker. Certainly... .I must be cheating. He wouldn't blame me, he says, blah blah But when I bring it up later when's he not dysregulated, he says he is sorry, he knows I'm not doing that, blahblah

This round of conversation has been going on for 2 months. I cannot wait for after the first of the year.

[believer55]

r. Certainly... .I must be cheating. He wouldn't blame me, he says, blah blah But when I bring it up later when's he not dysregulated, he says he is sorry, he knows I'm not doing that, blahblah

This is a conversation I have regularly. What I have noticed is when he comes down he is so completely polar oppposite. Once he feels secure he is clingy and won't leave me alone. - needing intimacy and affection all the time. I find this overwhelming as I am still dealing with the negative emotions that were just there and I need time to adjust to the physical affection. Do any of you also experience this?

[Cat Familiar]

r. Certainly... .I must be cheating. He wouldn't blame me, he says, blah blah But when I bring it up later when's he not dysregulated, he says he is sorry, he knows I'm not doing that, blahblah

This is a conversation I have regularly. What I have noticed is when he comes down he is so completely polar oppposite. Once he feels secure he is clingy and won't leave me alone. - needing intimacy and affection all the time. I find this overwhelming as I am still dealing with the negative emotions that were just there and I need time to adjust to the physical affection. Do any of you also experience this?

I get accused of cheating and it makes me wonder if he thinks I'm a lesbian since I only spend time with women, but no, he seems to think I've got a hidden boyfriend somewhere.

Don't get the clingy affectionate thing, but we've been together 10 years and seldom sleep in the same bed, due to different preferences of bedtime.

[Mie]

Once he feels secure he is clingy and won't leave me alone. - needing intimacy and affection all the time. I find this overwhelming as I am still dealing with the negative emotions that were just there and I need time to adjust to the physical affection. Do any of you also experience this?

This is an expression I was looking for to reply another post (about dealing with not intimacy... .). Yes, I know what you are talking about.  Body and mind are connected, words and actions are connected... .only not for people with BPD, obviously. And this is a major cause of problems in relationship.

[ColdEthyl]

r. Certainly... .I must be cheating. He wouldn't blame me, he says, blah blah But when I bring it up later when's he not dysregulated, he says he is sorry, he knows I'm not doing that, blahblah

This is a conversation I have regularly. What I have noticed is when he comes down he is so completely polar oppposite. Once he feels secure he is clingy and won't leave me alone. - needing intimacy and affection all the time. I find this overwhelming as I am still dealing with the negative emotions that were just there and I need time to adjust to the physical affection. Do any of you also experience this?

I don't get the negative feelings with his rages and fits like I used to. I know he is dyregulating, I just listen. I listen for what's bothering him, why he's hurt, etc. and go from there. I do not listen to his words or accusations; those are meaningless. Anything they say during a dysregulation is not fact, it's them trying to put words to emotions they don't understand... .and sucking at it.

[believer55]

Hi ColdEthyl - I hope to reach tht epoint you are at. I am still learning to ignore the insults and accusations and listen for what the fear is behind them.

[ColdEthyl]

Hi ColdEthyl - I hope to reach tht epoint you are at. I am still learning to ignore the insults and accusations and listen for what the fear is behind them.

You will it takes time. As nons, first you have to process what's already happened and your feelings about it. THEN you have to start trying to take a step back to see the whole picture. It's a lot of trial and error, and A LOT of work but you can do it You will get there!

[formflier]

 

Figuring out how to "not take it personally"... .can be hard... .I wasn't used to doing that.

But now... .if I get "accused" of something... .especially if I get accused of "thinking" something that I don't think. 

Then I know for a "fact"... that it's not about me... it's about the other person... .so... .there is nothing for me to do to "fix" the situation... .so I can not worry about it.


Make sense?

[Cat Familiar]

Figuring out how to "not take it personally"... .can be hard... .I wasn't used to doing that.

But now... .if I get "accused" of something... .especially if I get accused of "thinking" something that I don't think. 

Then I know for a "fact"... that it's not about me... it's about the other person... .so... .there is nothing for me to do to "fix" the situation... .so I can not worry about it.


Make sense?

It makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I will remember that when he accuses me of thinking something negative about him that is quite different from my experience. I'm done with being on the defensive over silly sh!t.

[formflier]

  I'm done with being on the defensive over silly sh!t.

 

I love it... .

So... .now that you have decided to no longer be defensive over stuff that "isn't yours"... .

What do you think the next step is?  If you are not going to be "defensive"... .what will you be?

Hmmmm?

[Cat Familiar]

  I'm done with being on the defensive over silly sh!t.

 

I love it... .

So... .now that you have decided to no longer be defensive over stuff that "isn't yours"... .

What do you think the next step is?  If you are not going to be "defensive"... .what will you be?

Hmmmm?

Good question! Thanks to being on this site, I've realized that previously nothing I have said or done when he was dysregulating had any positive effect, in fact it made things worse.

Now that I've learned some tools and have been able to see when dysregulation is beginning, I've frequently been able to stop making it worse or leave the scene.

It still hurts when he tells me that I hate him or that I take him for granted. But nothing I can say at those times has any impact. The only thing I can think of saying is that I'm sorry he feels that way and that I'm really sad that he does. I don't know what the next step is.

[formflier]

  Thanks to being on this site, I've realized that previously nothing I have said or done when he was dysregulating had any positive effect, in fact it made things worse.

Now that I've learned some tools and have been able to see when dysregulation is beginning, I've frequently been able to stop making it worse or leave the scene.

Awesome stuff... .it is awesome when people start "getting" the tools... .and seeing a difference.

I'll do some thinking on your "next steps".

Can you describe some of the times when you have "seen a difference" now that you are using tools?