Staying, but need to cover myself for Divorce. Any advice?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I've been recommended by Grey Kitty on the staying board to post this and ask or advice, in case I need to divorce to protect my children. Does anybody have some for me?

We've been separated or 10 months and now attempted a reconciliation for 2 months.

My wife went BEZERK over a change of Christmas plans today.  I needed to postpone the leaving date by two days. And she went stark raving, screaming mad. In front of the kids. Divorce,  expletives,  derogatory remarks about the male organ. It was the worst I have seen. And I've seen lots.

I got out the way and  suddenly remembered a trailer that needed picking up.

I came back 40 minutes later, and it set her off again,  so I figured recording her with my phone might temper her ( it has worked fairly well before) but this time it sent her into the stratosphere. 

The kids were crying. Etc etc etc.

After today,  I seriously question whether I am strong enough to do this. I think it's too big for me.

She is diagnosed with impulse control disorder,  eating disorder (I have this confirmed in writing by psychiatrist) obsessive disorder, General Anxiety Disorder (confirmed by her psychiatrist to me over the phone), Borderline traits and Narcissistic traits (confirmed by W in writing when she apologised for the physical abuse over 14 years)

Now she denies that she has any disorder.

I stated over and over through this nightmare of a day, that I separate her from the disorder.  That I love and care about her, but dislike the disorder. That I'm on her side. I validated her and complimented her. I think I might have validated the invalid too :-(

She said she wanted me to die today.  I realise that it's probably about how she's feeling about herself, but this is devastating!

The good news is she apologised to me and the children later, but this was a shocking one.

I hope she got the message about separating her from the disorder! !

[Moselle]

Hi all,

I've been recommended by Grey Kitty on the staying board to post this and ask or advice, in case I need to divorce to protect my children. Does anybody have some for me?

We've been separated or 10 months and now attempted a reconciliation for 2 months.

My wife went BEZERK over a change of Christmas plans today.  I needed to postpone the leaving date by two days. And she went stark raving, screaming mad. In front of the kids. Divorce,  expletives,  derogatory remarks about the male organ. It was the worst I have seen. And I've seen lots.

I got out the way and  suddenly remembered a trailer that needed picking up.

I came back 40 minutes later, and it set her off again,  so I figured recording her with my phone might temper her ( it has worked fairly well before) but this time it sent her into the stratosphere. 

The kids were crying. Etc etc etc.

After today,  I seriously question whether I am strong enough to do this. I think it's too big for me.

She is diagnosed with impulse control disorder,  eating disorder (I have this confirmed in writing by psychiatrist) obsessive disorder, General Anxiety Disorder (confirmed by her psychiatrist to me over the phone), Borderline traits and Narcissistic traits (confirmed by W in writing when she apologised for the physical abuse over 14 years)

Now she denies that she has any disorder.

I stated over and over through this nightmare of a day, that I separate her from the disorder.  That I love and care about her, but dislike the disorder. That I'm on her side. I validated her and complimented her. I think I might have validated the invalid too :-(

She said she wanted me to die today.  I realise that it's probably about how she's feeling about herself, but this is devastating!

The good news is she apologised to me and the children later, but this was a shocking one.

I hope she got the message about separating her from the disorder! !

[momtara]

Sounds like you said and did the right things.

You may be in the position I was in two years ago - I wasn't ready to leave my exH, still loved him, but also was worried about continually exposing my kids to this.  then it got beyond yelling, to a night in which he kept putting them in different beds all night long to annoy me, and he also lied and told the cops I hit them.  So, that's where the line was drawn.  He eventually got into counseling but I didn't trust him.

So it all depends on how far you really think she will go, if she will get counseling, and how much you can take. 

As for divorce, it's good to start learning about your options and custody.  A lot of dads here have had to work REALLY hard to get even 50/50 custody, but I think it all comes down to the groundwork you lay for yourself.  If you have professionals or proof she has a disorder that affects the kids, that might help you.  If you can prove you can provide a more stable environment for them, and you haven't left them, that's helpful.  Precedents matter, so if she is usually in the home with them, it may stay that way.

(Sorry, haven't followed your story so far... .)

You need to arm yourself before you even begin this.  reading the posts here is helpful.  There are some dads who will give really good advice.

Part if it will have to do with how old your kids are, and what kind of custody you want.  Courts care about what's best for the children, but they seem to tend toward the mother unless she's really really bad.  They also do like dads to be involved and (depending on the state) sometimes work to correct the old idea of being prejudiced against dads, but you still may have an uphill battle if you can't prove that this behavior is harming the kids.

If you want general advice about staying, set firm boundaries.  have a clear list of what she needs to do for you to continue the marriage (stay in counseling, etc.)  The fact that she apologized is a good sign.  Change is painful.  If she's on new meds, that can have an impact too.

[livednlearned]

How old are your kids?

A really good book to read if you are thinking about divorce is Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD Spouse. He's a former social worker with clinical experience and now a practicing lawyer. Eddy co-wrote the book with Randi Kreger of Stop Walking on Eggshells. You can download a copy to your computer if you're worried about having the print book lying around the house and you have some degree of privacy on your computer.

The collective wisdom on the Family Law board is the best you'll find out there, and people here genuinely care. No one here wants to see a scorched earth divorce happen, and most of us are familiar to some extent with the tools on the staying board, adapted to the divorce environment.

I think it's a good idea to have a safety plan and gather lots of information to make sure you understand legally where you stand. Doesn't mean you have to actually get divorced, but knowing how things work where you live and talking to a lawyer can help you problem-solve in important ways if/when a crisis happens and you have to act quickly. There is a high rate of false allegations with dysregulated BPD women and if you find that your water hits a rolling boil and everyone is cooking, you need to have a good plan. Most of us don't pay attention to how much law is actually going on all around us until it's too late.

You can consult with an attorney (or several if you have the means) for roughly $100 or so per half hour. It will be worth it. You can ask a lot of questions, and get a lot of information in that short period of time. Again, doesn't mean you have to do anything. It's insurance.

Depending on what state you are in, there are different laws. In some states, like Washington, there is a 50/50 default state for custody. In some states, the "tender years doctrine" has a strong bias. Meaning, the younger the kids, the more likely the court will want to see them with mom. So when reading what others have been through, it's a good idea to find out how things work where you live before assuming it will be the same for you. Everyone has different circumstances and having a good lawyer, a good judge, a lot of documentation, a great therapist, the age of your kids, the state laws, the county interpretation of those laws, a support network, and the severity of the BPD traits can all make a huge difference. Some states have parenting coordinators, some require mediation first, some have masters' counsels for the kids (basically, lawyers for the kids), some use GALs (guardian ad litems). Some carve custody up into physical custody, legal custody, decision-making, residential parent for school purposes, and then different ways of doing visitation. Some insist on parenting plans. There are a bunch of nuances and it's good to know how your state does things.

However things work where you are, there is one golden rule. The more you document what is happening, the better your chances are at getting a favorable custody outcome, if it comes to that. Documenting your wife's behavior is a good practice, even if you decide to stay. It will help you piece together patterns with some clarity. It takes a lot of strength to be in these marriages and thinking clearly gets harder the more dysregulated spouses become. Having documentation will help you in court if it comes to that, but it's also a way to make sense of an upside down life.

Another book I highly recommend is Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids, also by Bill Eddy. It's partially about parental alienation, which tends to go with BPD parenting, but it's more about helping you do some small corrective things to make sure the kids can handle this. If it's hard for you, it's 100 times harder for them. They need you to help them make sense of what's happening, and that book has some great advice for the non-BPD parent.

People will say that the courts favor the mother, but I looked at the research. While it's true that more moms get primary custody, it's also true that more moms ask for it. Of the dads who asked for primary custody, roughly half were successful.

You know in your heart that you are the stable parent and that the kids will do better the more involved you are in their lives, and it's important to ask for what you think is best. That's ultimately what the court cares about, although the way the family court system works, there are so many problems in determining what is happening that you can barely tell that doing what's best for the kids is the "polar star" of the system.

What does tend to happen is that the court gives both parents a lot of rope. The behaviors your wife exhibits in the marriage tend to be the same during the divorce, for better or for worse. For better, because now the court will be involved in what has largely been your personal problems. For worse, because of the same reasons. If you are worried about how the kids will do once they have two homes, remember that right now they have no break from the stress. In a two-home environment, they will at least have one house where they can decompress. Some couples try a therapeutic separation to see how it might be, although you need to have a skilled therapist involved and probably a counselor for the kids.

None of this is easy and I hope you know that whatever you decide is ok. Most of us here obviously made the decision (or had it made for us) that the marriage was over, but I for one remember like it was yesterday how hard it was. There's a lot to work through, not just legally, but financially, emotionally, psychologically, and it takes time to process something so difficult as ending a marriage, even if mental illness is front and center in the family.



LnL

[Moselle]

Thanks so much L&L. As painful as it is to face reality, I've decided not to go down this hole with her. For me and for my childen.

I live in South Africa, where the law requires a parenting plan in every divorce and the bias is strongly towards a 50/50 share of custody. There is a family advocate assigned to the family,  and they act for the childen. The default is a 50/50 split in terms of decision making for the kids, and that advocate remains as a mediator for any future issues around those decisions. The basis of the law which was completely overhauled in 2007, is that it is best for the children to have 2 active parents in their lives. So fortunately the law is fairly progressive.  But then you also need a judge/ family advocate who are also fair and that I guess is a bit of a lottery.

I have read "Splitting" and I have consulted 2 lawyers during my 10 month separation.  She has twice been  at her lawyers to.file,  but pulled back both times when I refused to agree to a divorce. We are currently going to a mediator to try and agree a working parenting plan.  Which is good either way. I want her to sign a set of parenting guidelines,  which we both stick to.

I'm tired. I'm just tired of the damage being done to me and the kids.

But I have been documenting things fairly well. My children are at stake here!

[ForeverDad]

During a separation, divorce and afterward, your priorities are different than in an ongoing marital relationship.  Although sad, by necessity she has to be lower on your list of priorities, you and the children necessarily need to come first.

Airplane flight instructions apply here regarding caring for yourself:

In the event of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

[DreamFlyer99]

Moselle,

I've been out of our house for 10 months and we have grown children, one still living in the home. You sound very kind and affirming being able to tell your wife that you separate her from her disorder--the unfortunate bit is that you LIVE with both her and the disorder, and the children LIVE with both her and the disorder.

And to a child, separating those two parts is not understandable. I grew up with that since my mother was likely NPD and struggled for years to understand how the person who was supposed to love me more than anyone else on earth did could be so hateful and cruel to me sometimes. That's where books like the parenting one Livednlearned mentioned would be great. Nobody even tried to help me understand when I was a child what was going on, so I figured I must deserve to be treated like I was worthless, and carried my "keep the peace at all costs" way of life into what turned out to be a high conflict marriage. Knowing how to talk to your kids will be a priceless gift you give them!

i'm so glad you document! A factual documenting of events and words said in front of the children and even the level of her voice and how close she was to the children when she was shouting are all factual details that can go far to show the kind of trauma your wife is subjecting your children to in your presence, so who knows what goes on when you're not there.

How old are your children?

This is so awfully hard isn't it?

[Moselle]

Dreamflyer

This is actually a ghastly scenario. One I did not conceive would be possible 12 months ago. In my mind I  had a happy family. 3 kids btw D13, D10, D5. I was rudely awakened from what was a trance like state. A hamster running in its wheel. Too busy to recognise the red flags in my life. Too busy supplying my wife with her worldly desires, to notice that I was a shell of a father to my children, that I was firmly in the powerful grip of a woman with a serious mental disorder,  and a slave to her whims. 

I think she misses that LOL.

What she does to the kids when I'm not here is actually terrifying.

When we were separated,  they would phone me from time to time distraught,  that mom was pushing them around physically.  Really brave that is. Bullying helpless children.  Isn't that fun. I had to be apart to figure this all out. And I lived in a city 1500 km away. It broke my heart to leave the children with her but I had to recover where I was - a mess.

I'm trying to separate the disorder from her so she can identify that it's not her. She of course is perfectly normal and healthy 

[DreamFlyer99]

I'm curious why it's so important to show her it's not her--if her behaviors are something affecting her family, how is that not her?

Something I've been learning since I've been gone is that this whole relationship circus we are part of comes down to "how is our partner treating us and our children, and where are my boundaries in it?" How we phrase it to them makes very little difference, since what defines the disorder is a set of extremely flawed beliefs from which they decide (even unconsciously) how to treat those around them. And it's their treatment of us that forms their relationship with us. Just in my own experience with my uBPDh, how I say it makes little difference as he will interpret it through those faulty yet deeply held beliefs... .

I hope you know I mean you no harm or disrespect, you're clearly a kind and loving person. If I could tell you any One Most Important Thing it would be to make and uphold the boundaries needed to protect the mental and physical health of you and your children, and worry less about offending your wife.

I hate what this disorder has done to our lives!

[livednlearned]

I'm curious why it's so important to show her it's not her--if her behaviors are something affecting her family, how is that not her?

I think this is often the tipping point when the non-BPD partner makes the decision to leave. Making this exact distinction.

Admittedly, this is a gross oversimplification, but the way I understand DBT is that it's designed to work with BPD defense mechanisms in exactly this way. Meaning, helping to develop tolerance for opposites, like being mad at someone and still loving them. This is actually a challenging thing to do for anyone, much less someone with BPD.

The problem is when the boundaries around bad behavior are busted to the point of no return, or, when kids are involved, they cannot be protected. When that happens, we have to get the courts to enforce boundaries, and that means both gaining and losing control over the most intimate parts of our lives 

[DreamFlyer99]

I tried to implement the staying techniques and that just gave him something new to bust. He even admitted that he made my boundaries impossible in one of his moments of clarity. And just knowing that fact didn't cause any change in his behavior. That would take another choice and following through, and my mental health couldn't wait... .

[ForeverDad]

I'm trying to separate the disorder from her so she can identify that it's not her. She of course is perfectly normal and healthy 

Sorry, that's not possible.  Well, maybe, but the odds are greatly against success with that tactic.  Why?  It's not you precisely, it's the close relationship, BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships and what is closer than spouse (and children)?  She very likely cannot really listen to you because everything you say is filtered through her emotional bias of the relationship baggage.

Maybe a professional - someone with an emotionally neutral standing - can reach her, maybe, but she will have to let the person in and decide to make real improvements.  Sadly, many don't allow that.  That's why around here we do encourage you learn more, try improved coping and communication skills to determine if it is sufficient to make life with the person healthy and functional.  But if that doesn't work... .then since your spouse has a long established pattern of poor behaviors and refusing to change, it's left up to you to make the changes needed... .improved boundaries, etc.  Yes, the new boundaries may mean the relationship ends, not your wish, but there's no other choice if you're not to be an appeaser and muddy doormat.

And if you have children, you have to consider the example you set for the children.  One method poor behaviors pass from generation to generation is by example.  What example do your children see?  A demanding unreasonable parent and a compliant subservient parent.  It's not one bad example, it's two!  Neither are good examples.  Allowing that to continue raises the risk the children will never know what family life ought to be like and when grown they will be drawn to choose, whether consciously or unconsciously, a partner very much like dad or very much like mom.

As much as we never wanted a divided family, in extreme cases like ours making a stand (safely and with strategies and resources to protect you from the chaos, rejection, false allegations aimed to make you look worse than your spouse) and setting boundaries is the better way even if it results in separation and divorce.  In this way the children will experience a stable and loving home during at least a part of their childhood.  Yes, leaving is the last option, but at least leaving with the children (or as much time as you can get with them) makes what has to be done the best outcome from a bad situation.

I've read this here way back and so I've referenced it often here:  One of the major reasons we can't be the ones to help them is because we have been in a close relationship with them.  Yes, that's right, because of our past close relationship.  BPD is a disorder that is most evident with close relationships, they closer you are or were, the more evident and pronounced the distorted thinking, feelings and perceptions are.  Think of the relationship impact as baggage, emotional baggage.  When she sees you or hears you, she doesn't see you or hear you, she sees or hears her perceived emotional baggage, she can't get past that.

That's why an experienced therapist or mental health professional will always keep emotions out of the sessions.  I recall the anonymous writer of "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!" wrote near the end when her therapist said she had recovered, he gave her a hug goodbye and she never saw him again.  She remarked he had never in all the years of therapy even so much as touched her before.  He had kept the sessions totally professional and emotionally neutral.  That's one factor why the therapist succeeded and her spouse by himself couldn't, the spouse was too close emotionally and she couldn't see past that.

That's why everyone here is stating that she is very unlikely to listen to you in the untreated state she is in now.  And she may never listen to you (as you would expect a reasonably normal person to listen) ever again.

Radical acceptance.  Accept the current reality, stop wasting priceless time and finances hoping you can get her to do whatever and then figure out what your realistic options are using other strategies.  She will do what she will do, she's an adult, she's allowed to live her life as she pleases.  Your mission, Mr Phelps, is to secure your own future and safety and secure your parenting so that your children can have a better future and with you in it.

I wrote the above to help you break loose from any lingering hopes, though perhaps you've already done that.  I just want you to know - to your core - that you did what you could for all those years and you shouldn't guilt yourself thinking there might have been something you could have done better.  There wasn't.  Or that one day she might wake up and want you back into her endless cycles of love/hate.  You don't want that either.  This was a train wreck in slow motion that has been happening for years.  Maybe Superman could stop a train wreck but we sure can't.