I'm a woman of 27 from the Netherlands with a uBPD mom.

[Kwamina]

I don’t think anything about other people’s sadness except that I feel sorry for them.

I know what you’re going to say….and nope I’m not ready to feel really sorry for myself. When I do, I get so sad and afraid.

Yeah I could have said that but that wasn't what I was going to say though  What I want to say is perhaps you should accept the way you're feeling at any given moment regardless of how you're feeling. Allow yourself to experience and observe your feelings and emotions without judging yourself. And then as you accept things as they are you can really start working on turning things around in the direction you want. You don't wanna feel this way and I totally get that because these intense negative emotions are very unpleasant. The reality is that you do feel the way you do and there's nothing you can change about that so perhaps a new strategy to try out could be to stop fighting your feelings but embracing them as a part of who you are at this moment without letting yourself be defined by those feelings.

I’m ashamed of myself because I’m not ready to accept that I did nothing wrong as a kid and, following from that, that I’m not a bad person. This shift in worldview is too much for me right now.

If you carefully weight the pros and cons of holding on to the view that you're a bad and inherently flawed person, would you say the benefits outweigh the costs? Could you list the benefits of holding on to this negative view of yourself? What would you lose if you were to let go of this view of yourself and what do you think could be the possible gains?

I wish I could go back in time and undo everything that has been done to me but hey of course I can’t.

Well the bad news is that you can't go back, you can't change your past. The good news is also that you can't go back because this means that you don't have to experience the abuse again.

I realise this is mean and immature... .

... .

I feel like a bag of sh!t.

And yes, I am disgusted by myself. I feel worthless, like an object that has been used and torn. I feel stained, tainted, dirty, low, and not to be respected. I feel like I’m a burden to those who know what I’ve been through.

What I see in these quotes is you labeling yourself and applying emotional reasoning. Do you believe that these labels give an accurate description of who you truly are? Aren't there any redeeming qualities of yourself that you can list? And if you can list some, doesn't that then mean that those harsh labels in reality don't apply to you or at the least give an inaccurate or incomplete description of you?

Sometimes when we feel really low we think that because we feel this way, this gives an accurate reflection of how things are. However when those feelings are a result of distorted thinking patterns, it could very well be that your feelings don't give an accurate reflection of what's really going on. This is called emotional reasoning. Do you think that emotional reasoning could be a factor in what's going on here?

I’m freaking afraid I will turn out to be not worthy of my partner like I’ve always feared.

Do you feel like you need to earn your partner's worth and if so why do you think you feel this way? Is it because you felt like no matter what you did you never got the approval you might have wanted from your mother? Do you perhaps tel yourself that if you prove yourself to be worthy in the eyes of your partner, this then proves that you mother was wrong because you in fact are lovable?

I think I didn’t make myself clear enough... I was talking about when uBPDm raped me as a kid (using an object).

I suspected you were referring to what your mother did to you. I hope your therapist will be able to help you deal with these difficult memories of this traumatic event.

[polly87]

Hi again Kwamina and thanks for your reply.

Here’s another long read . I saw that this thread has been read lots of times and if there’s anyone willing to share their thoughts, know that you’re welcome

If you carefully weight the pros and cons of holding on to the view that you're a bad and inherently flawed person, would you say the benefits outweigh the costs? Could you list the benefits of holding on to this negative view of yourself? What would you lose if you were to let go of this view of yourself and what do you think could be the possible gains?

Well... .The pros of holding on to the negative view are that I do not have to accept the reality of having been abused. I don’t have to deal with the immense sadness and powerlessness that result from this experience.

The cons are that I’m stuck. I don’t get anywhere. I hurt my partner (emotionally I mean) when I harm myself. I remain afraid of not being good enough.

If I embrace the new view of myself, I’d have to deal with the scary stuff. I’d lose the security of being who I thought I was.

In the ideal case, I’d kick the self-harming habit and I wouldn’t hurt my partner so often and I’d feel less guilty.

So maybe you’d wonder what is keeping me back. The scary stuff is. I’m afraid to deal with all those emotions. I don’t have access to any 24/7 service or something. I guess I’ll have to deal with this myself. I’m not saying that I can’t discuss this with my T but the emotions are going to surface when I’m not in her office. Maybe keeping a journal and praying will keep me from going crazy. Any other suggestions are very welcome…

Well the bad news is that you can't go back, you can't change your past. The good news is also that you can't go back because this means that you don't have to experience the abuse again.

That’s true… I don’t have to experience it again. I just hope I’ll be able to neutralise the memories – I feel like I experience it again every day now in my mind.

What I see in these quotes is you labeling yourself and applying emotional reasoning. Do you believe that these labels give an accurate description of who you truly are? Aren't there any redeeming qualities of yourself that you can list? And if you can list some, doesn't that then mean that those harsh labels in reality don't apply to you or at the least give an inaccurate or incomplete description of you?

Sometimes when we feel really low we think that because we feel this way, this gives an accurate reflection of how things are. However when those feelings are a result of distorted thinking patterns, it could very well be that your feelings don't give an accurate reflection of what's really going on. This is called emotional reasoning. Do you think that emotional reasoning could be a factor in what's going on here?

Yes, I’m pretty sure this is a case of emotional reasoning. My thinking patterns are definitely distorted when I’m stressed out. I find it hard to think of any redeeming qualities in myself. Maybe the fact that I don’t intend to hurt others… But I’m not sure if that makes me a good person.

I find it hard to think about this issue. As grown-up people, we can decide what to think of ourselves, but as children, we were told we were good or bad. I was told I was bad so often that I find it nearly impossible to change this view of myself. And yes, I know, my mother was wrong. That doesn’t mean every untruth she put in my mind is suddenly changed.

I don’t mean at all to sound curt with you though… I will think your questions over and I know they’ll help me in my progress, which has quickened in a major way since I'm on this board.

I’m freaking afraid I will turn out to be not worthy of my partner like I’ve always feared.

Do you feel like you need to earn your partner's worth and if so why do you think you feel this way? Is it because you felt like no matter what you did you never got the approval you might have wanted from your mother? Do you perhaps tel yourself that if you prove yourself to be worthy in the eyes of your partner, this then proves that you mother was wrong because you in fact are lovable?

You hit the nail on the head. Yes, I absolutely want my partner to say that he loves me without condition (and I’m ashamed for it). I feel like I need him so that I can replay the part I had as a kid who is desperate to be loved. I want to do it over and over and I want him to play the part of the loving one. (I'm aware that this is not a feature of a healthy relationship  )

In fact I told him about this mechanism yesterday. He asked me how T had been for me that morning. It had been a hard day for me because he was very sad because of what had happened the day before when I'd harmed myself. So yesterday evening we discussed T and how he felt. During that conversation, he told me, he stopped me from self-harming twice. I cannot even remember being about to harm myself. This shows just how badly my memory functions when I’m stressed.

I tried to make some sort of agreement with him about how much I’d tell him about my progress and the things I struggle with. I was and am worried that I take up too much of his time and energy. I told him that I need him to play out a certain part (and that I’m ashamed of it) to replay the rejection vs. unconditional love issue. I so wish I had an alternative to this.

In many cases, our conversations about my progress end up with me being afraid I tire him. I realised yesterday that the cause of this is my fear of being emotionally abandoned (which I told him). I usually ask him whether I tire him and when he says no, I don’t believe him because he always looks tired after a complicated discussion of things. I feel so sorry for him when I see him rubbing his eyes and blinking all the time. I blame myself for this. It’s too hard to feel that it’s actually my mother’s fault. It is my mother’s fault, isn’t it? Even now I can’t be really sure. Anyway then I usually get angry with myself for making him tired and sad and then the self-harming happens. This is actually the only thing that makes him sad, he told me yesterday just before we went to sleep. I find this so hard to believe but I know I have to believe him. The self-harm is my not-so-handy way of asking: will you please give me some more attention and care? Will you please not leave me? Will you please not judge me for being stressed? Will you please comfort me? And most of all: Will you please love me despite everything?

Needless to say, my “questions” do not yield the answers I need. My partner usually gets angry with me for harming myself. This confirms my view that I am a bad person. Sometimes I threaten to leave him because I find he has nothing to gain from being with me. All I want to hear is that he loves me despite all this baggage. I was so relieved this morning when he told me he loved me when he left for work. Yesterday he didn’t (though I did) and I felt more depressed than I had felt in the past 5 years.

Obviously, and ironically, this emotional flashback routine IS tiring for him. I wonder if some part of me does this on purpose to make a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I want to stop this. I want to believe that he loves me and that I am loveable. The only way I have of putting these thoughts from my mind is prayer. As I said before, all suggestions are welcome... .

I hope your therapist will be able to help you deal with these difficult memories of this traumatic event.

Thank you  

[Kwamina]

Hi again polly,

After reading your post in which you ask for suggestions, I was wondering if you're familiar with Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT)?

Cognitive therapy programs train people to replace maladaptive cognitive styles with helpful thinking patterns and increase behavioral coping skills. CBT is a very useful coping tool for family and partners (current and former) of individuals with borderline personalty disorder.

The basic idea is that you write down any (automatic) negative thoughts you might have and try to counteract or combat them by writing a positive or rational response next to them. This is a technique that you can apply by yourself even without a therapist. In CBT 10 types of distorted thinking are identified:

- All or none thinking

- Overgeneralisation

- Mental filter

- Disqualifying the positive

- Jumping to conclusions

- Magnification or minimisation

- Emotional reasoning

- Should statements

- Labelling and mislabelling

- Personalisation

Another thing you might want to explore is meditation and mindfulness. This can help you stay calm and focused and help you become more aware of any lingering negative thoughts or emotions you might have. You can read some more about mindfulness here:

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

PS. Your post really wasn't that long you know

[Harri]

Hello Polly!  I think Kwamina has some excellent suggestions and I hope you check them out.  I think they will help you a great deal (and I plan of doing the very same thing!  haha)

Okay, so I have read your recent posts and I have been thinking about them quite a bit.  You show an incredible amount of awareness and insight into your emotions and how your defense mechanisms have protected you in the past but are harming you, and your relationship, in the present.  That awareness is very very good Polly.  You can't change things if you are not aware of them.  You can also see that the way you are handling things now are not at all healthy or productive.  That is more good stuff. 

To steal a line from Kwamina, you can't go back.  It is not that you are on the verge of insight, you have already achieved the insight you needed for this step of your journey.  You know that.  It is why you moved away, are in T and are coming here.  I believe if your brain/mind did not think you were *capable* (notice I did not say ready!) of working things through and moving beyond this point, you would still be back in a place where you are unaware.  So this is good stuff!  The thing is, you are using old behaviors and thoughts to cope and defend and avoid your past and the emotional toll/fallout and are at least indirectly losing sight of your new emotional and cognitive surroundings.  That is normal and understandable so please do not use that info to beat yourself up.  Just consider this a gentle bump from me.   Your behaviors and thoughts worked in the past, but they do not apply anymore and they are, or will, cause you even more harm.  Again, do not beat yourself up over that or get panicky.  You can work through this.  You have already worked through harder stuff right?  Well, from that experience you developed tools to help you right?  So you *can* do this.  It is just a matter of breaking things into more manageable bits so you do not get overwhelmed by the newish level/awareness of emotions and then you can figure out what new tools you need.

Maybe a first step would be to accept that you are now in a place where your wonderfully clever brain knows you can handle things.  Forget, for now, working on changing all of the behaviors and handling all of the emotions... .just accept that a **part of you knows you can handle and ultimately change what is going on for you right at this moment** -- even the times when you are overwhelmed and crying and scared and feeling so lost and hopeless and helpless.  Tell yourself that over and over and I know from experience that even those times when you are having flashbacks and block things out, deep inside that mind of yours you will hear yourself saying "I can handle this.  This is happening for a reason.  I don't like it.  I don't like feeling like this.  I am scared but **I am capable of dealing with this.**"  Say whatever works for you... .heck, roll your eyes at yourself if it makes it easier (I did/do that all the time) but the part of your mind that needs to hear it will be hearing it and over time, you will get more confident in your belief that you can do this and you are capable.

Just take that one step Polly.  **Remember, your feelings will follow your behaviors.**  Same things applies with the thoughts and self-talk you engage in.  When we speak, or write, not only do other people hear us, but we do as well and when you write or type, you have a tactile experience of your words.  With that, we are reinforcing our beliefs about us and the world.  So every time you tell yourself you are not emotionally ready or can't do this or are overwhelmed, you are reinforcing those beliefs and there is no chance of you moving beyond this point.  That's self-sabotage right?  So change that self talk.  Next time you hear in your head "I am scared" say "Of course I'm scared.  That is normal.  But I can do this and I choose to do so in spite of the fear".  Hell, if it helps tell yourself "Harri says I can do this".

Have you ever had the experience of being nervous about something, like a presentation or a speech and you keep telling yourself ":)on't mess this up" and sure enough, you mess it up?  Grrrr.  Well, One day I changed that self talk to "You *can* do this Harri.  You've got this" and sure enough, I did just fine.  It still works for me... .and when i forget and slip back to the more negative self-talk, I invariably mess things up.   

Polly, please, just take that one small step of change.   

[polly87]

 Hi again!

Thanks Kwamina for explaining about CBT. I didn’t know about this technique and I’m going to try it today. I’ll keep you posted on the effects.

I’m familiar with mindfulness as I’ve practiced yoga and meditation on and off for the last 6 years or so (which is not to say that I’m good at it). It helps me to focus and to keep my mind relatively quiet .

You show an incredible amount of awareness and insight into your emotions and how your defense mechanisms have protected you in the past but are harming you, and your relationship, in the present.  That awareness is very very good Polly.  You can't change things if you are not aware of them.  You can also see that the way you are handling things now are not at all healthy or productive.  That is more good stuff. 

Thanks so much Harri. Your encouragement has played a big part in my progress the past weeks. I’m so glad we can discuss these things here.

The thing is, you are using old behaviors and thoughts to cope and defend and avoid your past and the emotional toll/fallout and are at least indirectly losing sight of your new emotional and cognitive surroundings.  That is normal and understandable so please do not use that info to beat yourself up.  Just consider this a gentle bump from me.   Your behaviors and thoughts worked in the past, but they do not apply anymore and they are, or will, cause you even more harm.  Again, do not beat yourself up over that or get panicky.  You can work through this.  You have already worked through harder stuff right?  Well, from that experience you developed tools to help you right?  So you *can* do this.  It is just a matter of breaking things into more manageable bits so you do not get overwhelmed by the newish level/awareness of emotions and then you can figure out what new tools you need.

Wow, that is one major mind shift! Thank you for believing in me. I don’t know what to say.

It’s true that I found out ways of dealing with the abuse. So now I have to find ways of dealing with my “new” life. This insight is like morning mist evaporating.

just accept that a **part of you knows you can handle and ultimately change what is going on for you right at this moment** -- even the times when you are overwhelmed and crying and scared and feeling so lost and hopeless and helpless.  Tell yourself that over and over and I know from experience that even those times when you are having flashbacks and block things out, deep inside that mind of yours you will hear yourself saying "I can handle this.  This is happening for a reason.  I don't like it.  I don't like feeling like this.  I am scared but **I am capable of dealing with this.**" 

Maybe this sounds weird but I’ve been reading this part of your post over and over since this morning and now I’m typing a reply I suddenly get it. I made it through the hardest part which was to survive the abuse. I suddenly feel I can do this. God I’m scared. I’m crying as I type this. When I’ve finished this post I’m gonna call my dad I think. I suddenly realise I’m in a safe place namely the present. The abuse is not happening anymore. It has stopped. It stopped on 24 January 2013, when I saw her for the last time in my life. My partner and my dad and my aunty and uncles and my best friends are there now. She’s out of my life. Yet I’m so scared of the things that will follow now. I’m afraid they’ll be just as difficult and I’ll be slow.

**Remember, your feelings will follow your behaviors……………...   Next time you hear in your head "I am scared" say "Of course I'm scared.  That is normal.  But I can do this and I choose to do so in spite of the fear".  Hell, if it helps tell yourself "Harri says I can do this".

Yes, that helps, as you might have noticed  . I can’t express how much you’ve helped me. Thank you so much.

On another note, do you ever wonder why these things happened to us? Do you think there’s some sort of spiritual function to them like learning self-love? Or do you think it’s just bad luck?

Love,

Polly

[Harri]

Hi Polly!  How are you? 

I am glad you find our conversation helpful and we are both helping the other to move through!  it is pretty wonderful isn't it? 

Did you have a chance to do the exercise Kwamina outlined for you?  If so, how did it go?  I really think you would benefit from CBT.  I can't remember if I already told you about a place online called MoodGym.  It is a free CBT class that is designed specifically for depression but is helpful for everything, including working through the distorted thought patters that Kwamina listed.  Anyway, the course is very good and best of all you can go at your own pace.  Here is a link (sign up is pretty easy): https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome

I made it through the hardest part which was to survive the abuse. I suddenly feel I can do this. God I’m scared. I’m crying as I type this.

Exactly Polly!  Crying is *good*.  You are feeling and not shutting down and I bet you were alone when you wrote this right?  Isn't that progress for you? 

When I’ve finished this post I’m gonna call my dad I think. I suddenly realise I’m in a safe place namely the present. The abuse is not happening anymore. It has stopped. It stopped on 24 January 2013, when I saw her for the last time in my life. My partner and my dad and my aunty and uncles and my best friends are there now. She’s out of my life. Yet I’m so scared of the things that will follow now. I’m afraid they’ll be just as difficult and I’ll be slow.

Of course you are scared.  I would be more concerned if you were not scared.  That is normal.  Aren't you a bit excited too though?  What are the things you think will follow?  Write them down, either here or somewhere else and then use the list of distorted thoughts that Kwamina listed above and see if your thoughts are twisted.  (I bet if you tried you would be able to list a whole bunch of positive things that may happen too.)  Then you can do the following to untwist your thoughts:

Now that you've identified your twisted thinking, use the suggestions of Dr. David Burns to help you untwist those thoughts.

1. Identify The Distortion: Write down your negative thoughts so you can see which of the ten cognitive distortions you're involved in. This will make it easier to think about the problem in a more positive and realistic way.

2. Examine The Evidence: Instead of assuming that your negative thought is true, examine the actual evidence for it. For example, if you feel that you never do anything right, you could list several things you have done successfully.

3. The Double-Standard Method: Instead of putting yourself down in a harsh, condemning way, talk to yourself in the same compassionate way you would talk to a friend with a similar problem.

4. The Experimental Technique: Do an experiment to test the validity of your negative thought. For example, if during an episode of panic, you become terrified that you're about to die of a heart attack, you could jog or run up and down several flights of stairs. This will prove that your heart is healthy and strong.

5. Thinking In Shades Of Grey: Although this method may sound drab, the effects can be illuminating. Instead of thinking about your problems in all-or-nothing extremes, evaluate things on a scale of 0 to 100. When things don't work out as well as you hoped, think about the experience as a partial success rather than a complete failure. See what you can learn from the situation.

6. The Survey Method: Ask people questions to find out if your thoughts and attitudes are realistic. For example, if you feel that public speaking anxiety is abnormal and shameful, ask several friends if they ever felt nervous before they gave a talk.

7. Define Terms: When you label yourself 'inferior' or 'a fool' or 'a loser,' ask, "What is the definition of 'a fool'?" You will feel better when you realize that there is no such thing as 'a fool' or 'a loser.'

8. The Semantic Method: Simply substitute language that is less colorful and emotionally loaded. This method is helpful for 'should statements.' Instead of telling yourself, "I shouldn't have made that mistake," you can say, "It would be better if I hadn't made that mistake."

9. Re-attribution: Instead of automatically assuming that you are "bad" and blaming yourself entirely for a problem, think about the many factors that may have contributed to it. Focus on solving the problem instead of using up all your energy blaming yourself and feeling guilty.

10. Cost-Benefit Analysis: List the advantages and disadvantages of a feeling (like getting angry when your plane is late), a negative thought (like "No matter how hard I try, I always screw up", or a behavior pattern (like overeating and lying around in bed when you're depressed). You can also use the cost benefit analysis to modify a self-defeating belief such as, "I must always try to be perfect."

Take each distorted thought and go through the list step by step.  It can be a bit tedious and sleep inducing  , but it does work wonderfully well in terms of helping slow down what I call the crazy train... .you get to pick your own name for it! 

Polly, we are all rooting for you and I think we all believe you can do this.  As far as i can see, you are the only one who doesn't completely believe that.  That's okay though.  You too will come to believe you can do this.  In the meantime, we can keep supporting you and encouraging you and if I need to I can nudge you along a bit  , but soon, you will be nudging yourself along.  And please feel free to nudge me too.  I need it.

On another note, do you ever wonder why these things happened to us? Do you think there’s some sort of spiritual function to them like learning self-love? Or do you think it’s just bad luck?

I've been thinking about this question since yesterday.  This may sound crazy but (!) I used to believe that I chose to be born into my family and I (my spirit) wanted/needed to experience certain things in this life.  I am not sure I believe that anymore though.  Or at least I am questioning my motives for believing that so easily.  I can't help but wonder now if I believed that because it fit so well with my refusing to be a victim. 

About learning self-love.  It seems to me there must be a boat load of more effective ways to learn self love that do not involve being abused and misused and violated in every way imaginable.  About bad luck.  Hmmm, I actually consider myself a very lucky person.  I really am in so many ways.  I am more apt to refer to luck of the draw.  I was dealt a hand of cards that are sort of sucky but I get to play them... .This is where I keep hearing "It is what it is".  I am not aware of feeling like I had bad luck even as a kid, but then again, I blocked out a lot of things so who knows what I thought back then!

I guess apart from what I said about my spiritual beliefs (which i am now questioning) I haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about the why of it all.  I don't consider the life I have had so far as bad, but I know a large part of it was not good. 

I do know it is very important that my story counts for something, whether it is to help another who experienced similar or to serve as a wake up call for others ('Harri's Life:  A Cautionary Tale Involving Fruit Loop Parents, Defense Mechanisms and Poor Coping Skills'.  It seems it would be a terrible waste if nothing good came from it all.

What do you think about these things?

[Kwamina]

I do know it is very important that my story counts for something, whether it is to help another who experienced similar or to serve as a wake up call for others ('Harri's Life:  A Cautionary Tale Involving Fruit Loop Parents, Defense Mechanisms and Poor Coping Skills'.  It seems it would be a terrible waste if nothing good came from it all.

What do you think of this title Harri? --> Harri's healing: An inspiring tale of resilience, introspection and continued healing after many difficult years.

[Harri]

    Kwamina!  That title is far kinder, gentler, and more positive than the one I picked isn't it?  Thank you for that and also for catching the negative self talk I still use to beat myself up!  Polly, for me, this right here is the magic and power of these boards.  People helping us to see us through different lenses. 

Thanks for the nudge Kwamina!  And thank you for not just seeing me but also seeing my potential.  You have made me cry, laugh and feel supported and accepted through this whole process.   

And back to you Polly! 

[polly87]

Hi again Harri and Kwamina,

I’m sorry it has taken me a while to reply to your posts… I thought I’d take it easy for a couple of days but as I noticed I got triggered more easily yesterday I realised I was just hiding or trying to shut down… So I’m back again now.

I tried the CBT and I found that, for the negative thoughts that popped into my mind, it worked rather well. One example was when I thought that I was not good enough for my partner. Fortunately I was still relatively calm so that I could examine the thought. It seemed to me this was All or none thinking, Disqualifying the positive, Jumping to conclusions, and Labelling and mislabelling. As a rational response, I said to myself: we’re not quarrelling right now and he’s never asked me to leave, so this mistake I made is probably not a big deal to him. – It might not be entirely positive but it helped me to calm down again.

As I encounter more automatic negative thoughts I’ll try and use the technique again. Thanks again Kwamina for the suggestion

I haven’t checked out the MoodGym yet but it’s on my list for this week. I’ll keep you posted.

I made it through the hardest part which was to survive the abuse. I suddenly feel I can do this. God I’m scared. I’m crying as I type this.

Exactly Polly!  Crying is *good*.  You are feeling and not shutting down and I bet you were alone when you wrote this right?  Isn't that progress for you?

Yes I was alone when I wrote that…and it was indeed progress to allow my emotions to surface. It was scary but apart from that nothing happened. I realised I was stronger than I thought.

Of course you are scared.  I would be more concerned if you were not scared.  That is normal.  Aren't you a bit excited too though?  What are the things you think will follow?  Write them down, either here or somewhere else and then use the list of distorted thoughts that Kwamina listed above and see if your thoughts are twisted.  (I bet if you tried you would be able to list a whole bunch of positive things that may happen too.)  Then you can do the following to untwist your thoughts…...

Yes, I was excited and also happy in a strange way… I felt that it was possible for me to heal but I was also sad because of all the things that happened to me as a kid.

When I wrote my previous post, I was afraid that I’d get stuck in my progress again, like I did last summer. Things got so complicated between my partner and me and we nearly broke up. Yet I wasn’t able to stop self-harm back then. I just hated myself too much. I wasn’t ready to accept it wasn’t my fault.

I’m afraid something like that will happen again. Another way of getting stuck….like there’ll be something I’ll have to learn that I won’t be able to feel in my heart, so that I’ll hurt my partner again.

Taking this thought through the untwisting process the following things come up.

1. Identify The Distortion: Write down your negative thoughts so you can see which of the ten cognitive distortions you're involved in. This will make it easier to think about the problem in a more positive and realistic way. -> I guess this is a mental filter. What’s happened in the past will happen again. I don’t think I’m entirely open to the view that things could go okayish from now on.

2. Examine The Evidence: Instead of assuming that your negative thought is true, examine the actual evidence for it. For example, if you feel that you never do anything right, you could list several things you have done successfully. -> I can’t even do this because it’s about what would happen in the future. Which means that it wouldn’t necessarily have to happen.

3. The Double-Standard Method: Instead of putting yourself down in a harsh, condemning way, talk to yourself in the same compassionate way you would talk to a friend with a similar problem. -> I have a friend who’s bad at maths and I offered to explain some difficult chapters to her. So in my own case I’d say to myself that I have friends (right here on this board) who will help me to go through this without going crazy.

It’s interesting that I’m crying again as I type this. I do not usually see myself as my own friend. Actually I see myself as that annoying workmate who is always there just being annoying and who I’m trying to ignore, but then I realise I have to make her lunch or she’ll starve. I find this so bloody hard.

…After a couple of minutes I realise now that it’s the voice of my mother who hated me for being hungry or thirsty or needing the bathroom. Disgusting woman.   I’m so angry with her. I wish I could see her suffer right at this moment because she hasn’t seen me for 362 days and she’ll never see me again.

4. The Experimental Technique: Do an experiment to test the validity of your negative thought. For example, if during an episode of panic, you become terrified that you're about to die of a heart attack, you could jog or run up and down several flights of stairs. This will prove that your heart is healthy and strong. -> I’m not hurting my partner right now (‘cause he’s at work) so at least I’m not doing things wrong atm.

5. Thinking In Shades Of Grey: Although this method may sound drab, the effects can be illuminating. Instead of thinking about your problems in all-or-nothing extremes, evaluate things on a scale of 0 to 100. When things don't work out as well as you hoped, think about the experience as a partial success rather than a complete failure. See what you can learn from the situation. -> I guess I could see every day that I do not get into the complicated quarrelling discussion stuff with my partner as a partial success….in this way I’d see my life as some sort of gradual process instead of judging myself by each moment and then only picking the moments  when I’m doing badly. Gee I didn’t realise this before. It’ll need some time to settle in my mind and especially in my heart. 

6. The Survey Method: Ask people questions to find out if your thoughts and attitudes are realistic. For example, if you feel that public speaking anxiety is abnormal and shameful, ask several friends if they ever felt nervous before they gave a talk. -> I hope you don’t mind my asking, and if you do please don’t bother answering this question. But do you have any experiences with romantic relationships while trying to cope with self-harm and/or PTSD and/or being sexually abused as a kid? I find this stuff difficult if not impossible to discuss with my friends that aren’t on this board. I have one friend who knows I’ve been raped but she doesn’t know by who and when. My parents in law know pretty much everything though (I told them because I went to their place the morning after I got all those memories back again. My partner had to work and I was so afraid of being alone with the film in my head. So in a daze I told them what happened). And then, when I was still a mess after a couple of weeks they literally told me that I had to change because I wasn’t doing my partner any good at that moment. Needless to say that was no help in my situation.

7. Define Terms: When you label yourself 'inferior' or 'a fool' or 'a loser,' ask, "What is the definition of 'a fool'?" You will feel better when you realize that there is no such thing as 'a fool' or 'a loser.' -> I don’t know what label would apply to me in the worst case scenario. Someone who doesn’t love her partner enough? A mean person? A selfish person?

Most of all I’m afraid of becoming like my mother I guess… someone who only cares about themselves and not about the other. But maybe there’s more to it….I’ll give it some more thought.

8. The Semantic Method: Simply substitute language that is less colorful and emotionally loaded. This method is helpful for 'should statements.' Instead of telling yourself, "I shouldn't have made that mistake," you can say, "It would be better if I hadn't made that mistake." -> So, it would be better if I didn’t end up troubling my relationship as a result of my recovery process.

9. Re-attribution: Instead of automatically assuming that you are "bad" and blaming yourself entirely for a problem, think about the many factors that may have contributed to it. Focus on solving the problem instead of using up all your energy blaming yourself and feeling guilty. -> My mother is actually the major cause of the trouble I’m going through now. The thinking patterns and coping patterns created in my youth were influenced by her negativity and by her abuse of me. I’m not sure I can feel this in my heart just yet though.



10. Cost-Benefit Analysis: List the advantages and disadvantages of a feeling (like getting angry when your plane is late), a negative thought (like "No matter how hard I try, I always screw up", or a behavior pattern (like overeating and lying around in bed when you're depressed). You can also use the cost benefit analysis to modify a self-defeating belief such as, "I must always try to be perfect." -> The advantages of believing I will screw up my relationship with my PTSD are non-existent. The disadvantages are that I get stressed more easily as I see the worst case scenario in my mind. It also works as a trigger. It’s got me in a circle of fear and I hope to be able to escape this in time.

Thank you so much Harri for this suggestion. I didn’t find it sleep inducing  but very illuminating. It’s like a guideline for journal-writing. I’ve saved it in a document (I don’t have any fancy boards ) so that I can come back to it when I need to.

It seems to me there must be a boat load of more effective ways to learn self love that do not involve being abused and misused and violated in every way imaginable.

Yes, that’s definitely true. I’ve also been thinking about this and I find that I can’t think of a proper reason. I can’t think of any reason why we – or anyone else –  should be put through these things. I find that you and I were victims as kids. We didn’t choose to be abused. Nobody does. It’s just sad and now we’re grown up (and by that I mean now we’re dis-enmeshing ourselves physically and mentally) we have to deal with the stuff.

Harri, I can’t tell how much you’ve helped me so far. If that adds meaning to your life I’m glad it does.  I wish you a meaningful, happy life, and the title Kwamina suggested seems pretty good to me

[polly87]

Incidentally, does any of you know about techniques or tricks to minimise nightmares?

[Ziggiddy]

What kind of nightmares are you having Polly?

[Harri]

I realised I was stronger than I thought.

 Wonderful!  So now you have your very own proof that you can handle your emotions.  It gets easier over time Polly.  So even if you do get overwhelmed sometimes, know that you will be able to handle more and more as you get stronger.  I am so dang proud of you!   

I’m afraid something like that will happen again. Another way of getting stuck….like there’ll be something I’ll have to learn that I won’t be able to feel in my heart, so that I’ll hurt my partner again.

~  you are not at the same place as you were last summer.  You have learned and you have changed.  Now when you start to spiral, you catch it quicker than before. 

And yes, you do have people right here on this board who are willing to support you.   

It’s interesting that I’m crying again as I type this. I do not usually see myself as my own friend. Actually I see myself as that annoying workmate who is always there just being annoying and who I’m trying to ignore, but then I realise I have to make her lunch or she’ll starve. I find this so bloody hard.

…After a couple of minutes I realise now that it’s the voice of my mother who hated me for being hungry or thirsty or needing the bathroom. Disgusting woman.  I’m so angry with her. I wish I could see her suffer right at this moment because she hasn’t seen me for 362 days and she’ll never see me again.

Good for you for recognizing that that is your mothers voice in your head telling you those lies.  And they are lies Polly. 

Have you had a chance to read and learn about projection and how it comes into play with pwBPD?

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.

I took that quote from this thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0  So those horrible things your mother would say to you and attributed to you are in actuality how she saw herself, it was just too painful for her to have those feelings about herself and so she projected them onto you.  Projection is crazy making for adults.  It is even worse for kids because we look to the adults to show us who we are and to learn how to interact with the world.  They are supposed to be our mirrors, letting us see how wonderful and precious and cherished we are.  Instead, parents with BPD use us as their waste bins for every toxic, shameful thought they have about themselves.  So, if they use us as a garbage bin for all their self loathing and hatred, we never get to see us.  We take those projections and internalize them.  It is hard to then see beyond those projections so I am so very happy you were able to recognize her voice in your head! 

I guess I could see every day that I do not get into the complicated quarrelling discussion stuff with my partner as a partial success….in this way I’d see my life as some sort of gradual process instead of judging myself by each moment and then only picking the moments  when I’m doing badly. Gee I didn’t realise this before. It’ll need some time to settle in my mind and especially in my heart.

Excellent insight here! 

But do you have any experiences with romantic relationships while trying to cope with self-harm and/or PTSD and/or being sexually abused as a kid?

I have had one romantic relationship in my life.  It was with another Non, though I go back and forth between thinking he is BPD or has traits.  We met in a support group several years ago and the relationship was about 7 years long (ended in 2009?).  I got involved with him about a year after moving away from my parents, so i was still pretty raw... .and naive.  So very naive.  It was not good Polly.  We had interlocking wounds.  When it was good it was very good, but it went bad all too often.  He pretty much had me painted as being BPD in the relationship and he was the poor poor Non who was just innocent and trying to help   and according to him, I abused him.   He had me cast as the evil BPD and him as the poor helpless victim.   

So anyway, I was right in the middle of the worst of the processing of my childhood.  We could talk about things and he would support me but it was on his terms and lord help me if I disagreed with his assessment.  He also used to use my problems and issues to hide his own really poor behaviors.  It all became very complex and it was basically a re-enactment of my relationship with my mother.  I still do not understand what a healthy relationship looks like.  What is the appropriate amount of sharing?  How much vulnerability am I allowed to show?  I don't think i was clingy or needy, but to him I was. 

So I am afraid I can't help you much here Polly.  The way my ex responded to me just made me dig my heels in more when it came to asking for help so I can't help you in terms of your partner.  I now wonder if I ever get in another relationship, and at this point I am not even open to the idea of a relationship, if he would even need to know my history.           I have not shared my entire story with anyone (except my ex) and i just don't see that happening (well, maybe in therapy).  I got the support I needed mostly from books, online boards like here and in therapy.  A couple of close friends know a bit of my history, but I do not really ask them for support.  What I will do is ask for reality checks or ask 'is this 'normal' type questions, but not much more than that.  Do you feel that your partner's family is against you?  Do you think they should be more supportive?

Polly, you are doing so very well.  I am glad you gave yourself a break *and* figured out when you needed to come back.  That right there is a whole lot of self-awareness.  Thank you for your kind words and for sharing so much of your story with me.  The latter part of that is the very best thank you, even no thanks are necessary. 

[polly87]

Hi Harri and Ziggiddy,

I’m having just about all kinds of nightmares about my mother. Sometimes I dream I’m back at my old home in which the sexual abuse took place. I dream I’m trying to escape from her and I’m screaming for help. Then I wake up from my own voice. Sometimes I have these horrible dreams in which I’m a grown woman and she still wants to sleep with me as she used to do when I had to go on holiday with her. Sometimes I dream I’m burying my old self which has no eyes or mouth.

So at night the recovery process continues. Sometimes I wake up more tired than I was when I went to sleep. Sometimes I sleep for more than 12 hours.

even if you do get overwhelmed sometimes, know that you will be able to handle more and more as you get stronger.  I am so dang proud of you!   ……~  you are not at the same place as you were last summer.  You have learned and you have changed.  Now when you start to spiral, you catch it quicker than before. 

And yes, you do have people right here on this board who are willing to support you.   

Thank you. Your support has helped me no end. I wouldn’t be where I am now without the help of the wonderful people on this board and especially the things we shared here.

Good for you for recognizing that that is your mothers voice in your head telling you those lies.  And they are lies Polly.  ………... So those horrible things your mother would say to you and attributed to you are in actuality how she saw herself, it was just too painful for her to have those feelings about herself and so she projected them onto you.  ……… parents with BPD use us as their waste bins for every toxic, shameful thought they have about themselves.  So, if they use us as a garbage bin for all their self loathing and hatred, we never get to see us.  We take those projections and internalize them.  It is hard to then see beyond those projections so I am so very happy you were able to recognize her voice in your head! 

I’m going to try to repeat this to myself every time one of those lies sneaks into my mind. I’m going to kill the part of her in me.

That thread on projection is interesting, thanks for pointing it out. Maybe I’ll post something there later on. I knew about projection and how it works but I never realised emotionally how her projections still got a grip on me.

My mother’s projections were basically all about self-loathing. I still don’t understand entirely how one can hate oneself that much and still want to continue living. Maybe it’s because she put all those feelings of self-hate in the garbage bin called Polly and that enabled her to love all the pretty things about herself (which weren’t there to anyone but her). I don’t understand why anyone would do that. I wonder if this emotional abuse has done me even more harm than the sexual abuse. The latter caused me to feel that my body wasn’t mine and it was disgusting. But the emotional abuse caused me to feel that I wasn’t allowed to be who I was. I don’t know which is worse.

When I was 12 or 13, my mother married one of many stepdads in a row. She married him because he was rich and she told me she wanted to kill him to get his money. She suddenly became a different person to me. She stopped giving me her time and attention. Around that time, I started self-harming. I always thought that it was because my worldview changed and that I realised I wasn’t important to her anymore. Now I think it was because I realised deep down that she didn’t love me at all and she didn’t love anyone else either. I think I started that habit because I felt that there was no love in my world.

I have had one romantic relationship in my life. ……….  It was not good Polly.  We had interlocking wounds.  When it was good it was very good, but it went bad all too often.  He pretty much had me painted as being BPD in the relationship and he was the poor poor Non who was just innocent and trying to help   and according to him, I abused him.   He had me cast as the evil BPD and him as the poor helpless victim.   

………………  It all became very complex and it was basically a re-enactment of my relationship with my mother.  I still do not understand what a healthy relationship looks like.  What is the appropriate amount of sharing?  How much vulnerability am I allowed to show?  I don't think i was clingy or needy, but to him I was. 

So I am afraid I can't help you much here Polly.  The way my ex responded to me just made me dig my heels in more when it came to asking for help so I can't help you in terms of your partner.  I now wonder if I ever get in another relationship, and at this point I am not even open to the idea of a relationship, if he would even need to know my history.           I have not shared my entire story with anyone (except my ex) and i just don't see that happening (well, maybe in therapy).  I got the support I needed mostly from books, online boards like here and in therapy.  A couple of close friends know a bit of my history, but I do not really ask them for support.  What I will do is ask for reality checks or ask 'is this 'normal' type questions, but not much more than that.  Do you feel that your partner's family is against you?  Do you think they should be more supportive?

I’m sorry that your ex treated you like this. If you don’t want to talk about it then please ignore this part… Please don’t apologise for not being able to help because you have helped me by sharing these things about your ex. It shows that it *is* difficult to obtain/maintain a (healthy) relationship with the baggage we have to carry with us.

I wonder why your ex would suggest you have BPD. Harri, you don’t come across as a pwBPD at all to me. You’re empathetic and you aren’t whimsical. Could it be projection on his part?

I’m sorry that your relationship mirrored your relationship with your mother. I understand why this would happen though. When I am triggered I tend to fall back into old patterns which I needed then to survive. The main pattern is that I feel that the other is against me and is angry with me and I’m doing things wrong. So I understand why you’d use your old patterns with your ex as well. And in a way it makes the more sense if he thought you were the “evil BPD”…

My MIL had a father with uBPD/uNPD and her brother has uBPD/uNPD as well. Having grown up with these people has had its influence on her of course. (She was in therapy for this years ago and the therapist recommended that she took this full-time therapy to regain a proper balance between self and kids and she refused because she wanted to stay with the kids.) She sometimes does things that are triggering to me, such as determining whether I’m ill and then determining whether I should go to work. She makes up her own truth about certain things. I don’t know why she does so. This also goes for mental illness. So when there’s a period when I’m triggered easily, I’m the one who’s bad because I don’t take proper care of my partner. Or when I’m having a hard time, she asks matter-of-factly how my therapy is going, asking for all sorts of details. She doesn’t understand that is embarrassing to me. If I tell them I don’t want to talk about it she’s offended.

Anyhow my partner’s parents aren’t against me (at least not anymore, but that’s a rather long story) and generally speaking they’re very friendly people whose view is a bit troubled sometimes. (I only wish they’d see how their meddling gives me more trouble sometimes but I know that isn’t going to happen :P ). Besides, I’m grateful they gave my partner a relatively untroubled youth and some excellent coping mechanisms. (They also planted in him the view that work is God and that’s the main reason why he studied medicine and why he suffered from burn-out and depression a couple of years before I met him.) So I have mixed feelings about them 

Polly, you are doing so very well.  I am glad you gave yourself a break *and* figured out when you needed to come back.  That right there is a whole lot of self-awareness.  Thank you for your kind words and for sharing so much of your story with me.  The latter part of that is the very best thank you, even no thanks are necessary. 

Thanks Harri. Your encouragement has done me so much good. I’m so glad I can share my story with you (and the other people on this board). When I first read you were also sexually abused by your mother I thought: what? I thought I was the only one in the world. Sharing our stories has helped me so much. I’m so glad we can help each other. 

Love,

Polly

[Ziggiddy]

Dreams are such a great source of semi conscious information. They turn into nightmares when there is information we just aren't processing.

I think it's significant that the you that you were burying had no eyes or mouth - isn't seen or listened to perhaps?

I also relate to the whispered hoarse voice - I had that nightmare repeatedly when I was a child.

It can be really useful to keep a dream diary even though it can be time consuming.

The problem with nightmares is that we don't articulate them. they can themselves traumatise us.

It is really really good to say them out loud. Something in the process of forming narrative for nightmares affects the limbic system and causes stress levels to drop.

many child abuse victims have been subject to awful things way before they learned to talk  Or were able to find words to fit the experience.

One way of offsetting this is the brain sends up stimulus to be processed during sleep cycles.

As an adult we have words that can describe our experiences even if they are inexact.

For some reason, disclosing and describing the nightmare as accurately and fully as possible has a brain altering effect.

It is the same effect analysts have found works with PTSD victims.

By describing a narrative and hearing that description your brain is able to process and file the memory and then it becomes possible for it to be integrated. No one knows why the brain/memory works this way but it does! I believe it has to do with the auditory cortex being linked with the occipital cortex.

Most data processing or rather synthesis happens in the occipital cortex - it is largely impacted by the visual cortex - ie what we see has a profound influence on what we think. Auditory cortex is wired in also with memory and limbic systems. This is why you can hear a song and it will provoke memories and feelings. Same with smells.

So you can see that the act of hearing vocalisation of your own voice has an outside impact on your processing equipment.

This is the main reason that 'talk therapy' works!

I'd recommend trying it on your nightmares Polly.

[polly87]

Hi Ziggiddy and thanks for your suggestion of keeping a dream diary. I might try it for a couple of days and see what it brings.

I think it's significant that the you that you were burying had no eyes or mouth - isn't seen or listened to perhaps?

Yes I think that's significant too. I think the 'me' that was being buried was not listened to and maybe not even able to talk. The 'me' was also not able to see the world - I was not allowed to play outside as a kid.

many child abuse victims have been subject to awful things way before they learned to talk  Or were able to find words to fit the experience.

I can relate to that. As a kid I didn't even know what sex was, let alone being involved in it without consent. This might explain why the only memory of the actual rape I have access to is about horrible pain and the fear of dying. I didn't and couldn't understand what the heck was happening. So it seems logical that the brain would try to process (and is still trying to process) this information without words.

Speaking of processing information  I took a long walk this afternoon and I suddenly felt that I wanted to write. Just to write down everything that happened to me in my youth. This is a difficult task and I won't be able to complete it in one sitting. But I just feel like I need to write down what happened so that I can look at it and say: this is the past. It's over and I managed to survive it.

Is there anyone else who has written down their traumatic memories? Thanks to the support of you guys on this board, I now feel like I can do this. 

[Kwamina]

Hello polly87,

Speaking of processing information  I took a long walk this afternoon and I suddenly felt that I wanted to write. Just to write down everything that happened to me in my youth. This is a difficult task and I won't be able to complete it in one sitting. But I just feel like I need to write down what happened so that I can look at it and say: this is the past. It's over and I managed to survive it.

Is there anyone else who has written down their traumatic memories? Thanks to the support of you guys on this board, I now feel like I can do this.  

Writing your experiences down can be very helpful. It helps in validating what you've been through and showing yourself that what you've been through actually occurred and was indeed abuse. I've done did too and called it "the real story of my family". It really helped me to see my experiences written down on paper like this. When it's just in your head it's sometimes very difficult to think clearly and you sometimes also doubt your own perceptions and memory. But when you've written it down and it's staring you in the face black on white, it's often possible to see things way more clearly which makes it easier to assess what really went on. It can also be quite confronting so be prepared for that and be mindful of your thoughts and emotions if you were to document these things. When I read things back it still amazes me that my 'sweet old mother' was the one who did such hurtful things to me. Of course I know she wasn't such a sweet old mother at all, but that was how she presented herself to the rest of the world.

I wonder if this emotional abuse has done me even more harm than the sexual abuse. The latter caused me to feel that my body wasn’t mine and it was disgusting. But the emotional abuse caused me to feel that I wasn’t allowed to be who I was. I don’t know which is worse.

I think emotional and psychological abuse underlies all other forms of abuse. Whether it be physical,sexual or verbal abuse, there's always also a strong level of underlying emotional and psychological abuse going on since all these forms of abuse have the potential to cause a lot of emotional and psychological damage.

With the projecting of her negative feelings onto you, it's may be easiest to recognize that this was emotional and psychological abuse. Harri has rightly pointed out to you that those projections are lies. That realization is the first step in being able to talk back to that negative voice you've internalized. What can really help is to keep reminding yourself that the things your mother said, most likely weren't a reflection of you you really are at all. Odds are that your mother's hurtful words and actions were indeed just a reflection of her own inner turmoil and negativity. Keeping this in mind can help you not let your mother's behavior and that negative internalized voice get to you too much. Easier said than done of course but I do believe that if you keep telling yourself these things, it can really help you talk back to the negativity. Applying cognitive behavior techniques can play a very valuable role here.

With sexual and/or physical abuse it might be more difficult to directly recognize the emotional and psychological abuse because we tend to focus on the physical or sexual aspects of abuse. But also with these forms of abuse there's a very significant emotional and psychological component to the abuse. The outer appearance of these forms of abuse might be sexual and/or physical but the damage done to a child is very much also on the emotional and psychological level.

[Harri]

Hi Polly!  How goes the writing?

So at night the recovery process continues. Sometimes I wake up more tired than I was when I went to sleep. Sometimes I sleep for more than 12 hours.

Yep, I view dreams/nightmares as part of the recovery process too!  LOL  Too bad it is such a draining process.  Have you ever had a night where you are angry and throw punches in your sleep?  Beating up a pillow while sleeping is exhausting.   

I agree with Kwamina that the emotional component of abuse is what is the most damaging.  Whether it is accompanied by sexual or physical abuse does not matter so much except maybe with the degree of shame and self loathing that can occur.  Being denied a self or in my case not being allowed to fully develop a self separate from my mother is the worst of all.  Having to process the abuse without knowing who I am and what I am capable of dealing with seems to double the work. 

I haven't spent a whole lot of time studying what the experts say about the roots of self injury or self harming behaviors.  For me it is not just a way to numb the pain it also provides a means of safety and it gives me something more tangible to hate, as in I can see the pain and the damage.  Again though, I have not really studied it, so I could be off in my self-assessment here. 

I don't mind talking about my ex, though I feel a bit stupid/slow when I do as the relationship ended long ago and yet here I am finally looking at his part in the mess.  For some things the anger is still so intense.  How to explain to people that it is not that I am bitter or holding onto things but rather I am actually now, finally, looking at his role and how he contributed to the problems.  It seems to me that most people begin the process by looking at the ex and their role and then eventually come around to looking within.  I do the opposite and I find a lot of people don't get that.  I generally don't bother explaining it either as I just come off defensive, which to them, proves their point... .and then i get irritated and grumpy about it.  So I avoid!     I do appreciate your listening though so thank you.

It shows that it *is* difficult to obtain/maintain a (healthy) relationship with the baggage we have to carry with us.

It is challenging, yes.  The thing is, it is the way we deal with our baggage that will, in large part, determine how much of an impact it has on the relationship.  Hopefully there is a happy medium where both parties needs are taken into consideration and each is afforded compassion, understanding and respect.  What does your partner say?  Has he ever indicated that he is feeling drained or anything like that?

At first, when I was with my ex and I would hit a particularly rough patch, I would tell him I needed a few days break and would be staying at my place.  It happened several times and I thought I was doing the right, responsible and mature thing and I was... .for me.  My ex on the other hand would tell me I should just keep to myself and not tell him why... .just don't call, email or visit.  It took a few times for that to sink in as it is the opposite of what I want/need (I prefer to be told "Hey, I am taking a few days break.  No big deal just need some time, I will call in a few days".  So then, I would try not telling him like he asked and he would get upset and accuse me of giving him the silent treatment and getting angry with him, cutting loose and painting him black (aka I was being BPD).  As*hat!  Actually, the as*hat term applies to myself as well because I was trying to change me and who I was and what I needed to match his needs... .and then I got angry with him because I was not taking care of me!  CRAZY!  I still get angry though when i realize i was expected to change me for his needs but he made no effort to change for me.  Seeing myself try to change me and who I am/was for another is so typical.  I can see it though and I do understand my ex's frustration because I was not being honest with him about who I was... .I was trying to be who he wanted me to be.  My confusion is further increased when I remember he would get angry with me when I chose not to share about some new problem I was working on.  He would tell me I was closing myself off from him.  <sighs>

Okay, not sure why I went into all that but I did so I imagine I needed to get it off my chest. 

Again though, I feel my baggage is mine to deal with and manage.  I can't rely on another to support me.    I don't know if that is a healthy way to be or not.  I mentioned that I wonder how how much vulnerability is too much and this is where it comes into play.  Where is that line between being closed off and being open to someone I care for?  Can I talk about something for 5 minutes, an hour, 5 days?  Haha, I even get sick of rehashing this crap with myself and I hear myself saying "Oh lord, here we go again" but is that the punitive voice in my head or is it right?  Heck if I know, but I do get annoyed with myself.     I also wonder where the line between being vulnerable with a partner and being a clingy mass is?  Again, I haven't a clue.  One thing that also influences how much I share with people is the fact that most people can't relate.  The thing is, I am happy that they can't relate.   I don't want other people to have had the same experiences I had.  They hurt and do damage, so when someone can't relate I feel happy for them that they did not experience these things.

Errrrrrmmm... .I think I just overshared!  So, back to you!    

It sounds like maybe, your partner's parents are not good people to share with?  Polly, if you don't want to share and she gets offended when you say that, so what?  If saying "I really don't want to talk about that" is offensive to her, let her be offended.  That is a poor boundary on her part.  That you can see how her past influences how she interacts with you is good.  It could be that because you have shared with her, she feels she has a right to ask you things or that it is her way to demonstrate concern for you.  so in terms of asking you about your therapy, make it clear you do not want to discuss it.  What can you say to yourself the next time she tries to tell you you are sick and can/can't go to work?  Or anything else?  She is not going to change, so the only thing you can do is limit your exposure or use the fact that you are triggered as a way to learn to deal with and manage the triggers so they have less of an impact on you.

[polly87]

Hi Kwamina and Harri,

…. when you've written it down and it's staring you in the face black on white, it's often possible to see things way more clearly which makes it easier to assess what really went on. It can also be quite confronting so be prepared for that and be mindful of your thoughts and emotions if you were to document these things.

That’s exactly why I want to try and write it all down… I used to be afraid of the emotions I’d feel when writing but I feel like my confidence has grown since I’m on this board.

With the projecting of her negative feelings onto you, it's may be easiest to recognize that this was emotional and psychological abuse. Harri has rightly pointed out to you that those projections are lies. That realization is the first step in being able to talk back to that negative voice you've internalized.

The other night I had a nightmare in which I was literally talking back to her. I was in some sort of shop with her and she was calling me names and I shouted back at her that she was wrong. I suppose I’m starting to believe that I’m allowed to make my own judgements instead of being ‘forced’ to let her do the judging.

Harri, I haven’t actually started writing yet….I’ve been really busy ‘cause I finally found myself a paid job! (I’m not sure if that’s a good excuse but hey I’ll be able to work on my confidence in a new way now that I’ll actually get paid for something I’m moderately good at )

Have you ever had a night where you are angry and throw punches in your sleep?  Beating up a pillow while sleeping is exhausting.  

Ermm….nope, but I do get nights when I get so tired because of all those dreams that I’m more tired when I wake up than when I went to sleep  

I also get nights when I wake up from my own voice when I dream I’m screaming for help. I do know that I was afraid – the memory of my fear during the abuse only got back a couple of weeks ago. Before that I didn’t have access to that memory. So I suppose my mind is busy working that out.

I suppose I’m mostly afraid in my dreams and you’re mostly angry? Or maybe you’re having trouble expressing anger and I’m having trouble expressing fear? Correct me when I’m wrong. And I’m sorry that you’re feeling such (bottled-up) anger. I find it one of the most difficult emotions to deal with – ‘cause who is still there to be angry with besides yourself? And of course the point of recovery is *not* to get angry with yourself but with the abuser but that's easier said than done.

I agree with Kwamina that the emotional component of abuse is what is the most damaging.  Whether it is accompanied by sexual or physical abuse does not matter so much except maybe with the degree of shame and self loathing that can occur.  Being denied a self or in my case not being allowed to fully develop a self separate from my mother is the worst of all.  Having to process the abuse without knowing who I am and what I am capable of dealing with seems to double the work.

 

I think I know what you mean. I also wasn’t allowed to fully develop a separate self. I wasn’t allowed to feel sad, angry, stressed or depressed. Having one’s emotions controlled makes it very difficult to heal, because, well, how can one heal emotions that cannot be felt at first? I think I’m making progress on this point though thanks to discussions like this one.

I haven't spent a whole lot of time studying what the experts say about the roots of self injury or self harming behaviors.  For me it is not just a way to numb the pain it also provides a means of safety and it gives me something more tangible to hate, as in I can see the pain and the damage.  Again though, I have not really studied it, so I could be off in my self-assessment here.  

Gee Harri I’m so sorry you also self-harm. But I totally understand. I’m not recommending it to anyone in any case but I’d like to share with you that – when other coping mechanisms fail –  I also use it to numb the pain and to punish myself for feeling whatever it is at that moment – shame, hate, anger, fear, sadness, being me…. I also want to be able to see the damage. I want to see that I’ve been harmed. It’s not only inside of me but it’s actually *there* for myself and other people to see (which they never seem to do).

I know that it’s very obvious that this is my inner critic on the loose, having just said that my mother wanted to control my emotions. Well I’m working on that, though not always succeeding…

It seems to me that most people begin the process by looking at the ex and their role and then eventually come around to looking within.  I do the opposite and I find a lot of people don't get that.  I generally don't bother explaining it either as I just come off defensive, which to them, proves their point... .and then i get irritated and grumpy about it.  So I avoid!     I do appreciate your listening though so thank you.

You’re welcome . I think we have a lot of things in common – I’m also often told I’m defensive and I also tend to look at myself before I even consider the possibility of someone else’s actions playing a part in my emotional turmoil. I know that in my case, I do so because I was always told I did things wrong, implying that the other person was right.

Hopefully there is a happy medium where both parties needs are taken into consideration and each is afforded compassion, understanding and respect.  What does your partner say?  Has he ever indicated that he is feeling drained or anything like that?

Yes he’s indicated a few times that it’s challenging and that my condition or whatever you may call it puts serious strains on our relationship. But it’s especially the self-harm that he finds really hard to deal with. The rest clearly tires him but he always says I can’t help it so it's ok with him.

However since I’ve been on this board, I’ve been able to reduce the pressure on him a little ‘cause I can share so much here. The relationship seems a bit more balanced now and I know that when there’s something coming up that I need to talk about, my partner’s not my single lifeline and that makes me feel a little more relaxed too. Not sharing *every* detail of *every*  trigger with him has been helpful. Among other things it’s taught me patience with myself when I get worked up about stuff. I also need to plan my board time between other things I have to do each day and that makes me feel it’s important to spend time on my recovery during the day and because of that I’m now able to spend more evenings relaxing and watching a film or chatting with my partner instead of endlessly discussing triggers and progress and so on.

At first, when I was with my ex and I would hit a particularly rough patch, I would tell him I needed a few days break and would be staying at my place.  It happened several times and I thought I was doing the right, responsible and mature thing and I was... .for me.  My ex on the other hand would tell me I should just keep to myself and not tell him why... .just don't call, email or visit.  It took a few times for that to sink in as it is the opposite of what I want/need (I prefer to be told "Hey, I am taking a few days break.  No big deal just need some time, I will call in a few days".  So then, I would try not telling him like he asked and he would get upset and accuse me of giving him the silent treatment and getting angry with him, cutting loose and painting him black (aka I was being BPD).  As*hat!  Actually, the as*hat term applies to myself as well because I was trying to change me and who I was and what I needed to match his needs... .

Hang on, Harri, that doesn’t apply to you! You didn’t know how to be who you was/are and you were trying to match his needs because you were conditioned to do so when you were little.

When I was with my ex I also did the opposite of what I wanted. I felt like I was like his mum or something.

and then I got angry with him because I was not taking care of me!  CRAZY!  

That’s not crazy, that’s what can be expected of someone in your case. You were taught not to take care of yourself but to depend on the bad version of ‘care’ that your parents gave you. So it’s no surprise that you didn’t tell your ex what you’d actually need ‘cause you weren’t used to getting what you need anyway.

My confusion is further increased when I remember he would get angry with me when I chose not to share about some new problem I was working on.  He would tell me I was closing myself off from him.  <sighs>

That’s confusing indeed. It sounds like some sort of BPD trait. I suppose that’s the reason why he accused you of being a pwBPD but I can’t be sure on that of course.

Again though, I feel my baggage is mine to deal with and manage.  I can't rely on another to support me.    I don't know if that is a healthy way to be or not.  

I don’t know if it’s healthy but I think it’s very brave. In all other cases I’d recommend sharing this stuff with a friend or an aunty you’re close with or someone like that, but I know how hard it is. It’s good you’re sharing it here.

I mentioned that I wonder how how much vulnerability is too much and this is where it comes into play.  Where is that line between being closed off and being open to someone I care for?  Can I talk about something for 5 minutes, an hour, 5 days?  

I learned some basic stuff about this in a hard way.  I used to believe that sharing everything equalled being totally honest, but you can be totally honest without sharing every detail about the healing process. It’s a trial and error thing trying to figure out where that line is between sharing too much or too little.

Haha, I even get sick of rehashing this crap with myself and I hear myself saying "Oh lord, here we go again" but is that the punitive voice in my head or is it right?  

Yup, I’m afraid it’s your inner critic talking there. You’re very patient and gentle to me so I know you have it in you to be as patient and gentle to yourself. Your mind has been conditioned to do the opposite, because that happened to please your parents. (Which is not to say that I’ve silenced my inner critic yet…  )

I also wonder where the line between being vulnerable with a partner and being a clingy mass is?  Again, I haven't a clue.  One thing that also influences how much I share with people is the fact that most people can't relate.  The thing is, I am happy that they can't relate.   I don't want other people to have had the same experiences I had.  They hurt and do damage, so when someone can't relate I feel happy for them that they did not experience these things.

Errrrrrmmm... .I think I just overshared!  So, back to you!    

Don’t worry about oversharing Harri. I’m interested in your story. I think I’m a clingy mass myself at times but, like you, I can’t be really sure.

It sounds like maybe, your partner's parents are not good people to share with?  Polly, if you don't want to share and she gets offended when you say that, so what?  If saying "I really don't want to talk about that" is offensive to her, let her be offended.  That is a poor boundary on her part.  That you can see how her past influences how she interacts with you is good.  It could be that because you have shared with her, she feels she has a right to ask you things or that it is her way to demonstrate concern for you.  so in terms of asking you about your therapy, make it clear you do not want to discuss it.  What can you say to yourself the next time she tries to tell you you are sick and can/can't go to work?  Or anything else?  She is not going to change, so the only thing you can do is limit your exposure or use the fact that you are triggered as a way to learn to deal with and manage the triggers so they have less of an impact on you.

Thanks for those suggestions. I never thought of it being an option that I don’t tell her how I feel. I usually make up some story about being on the way up or something because she believes that if your work hard you’ll get anywhere and if you don’t work hard you’re not worthy. I’ll try to actually voice my boundaries instead of just taking those questions as they come.

I tried to find out just what is so triggering about her response to me. During T yesterday, I realised that my MIL tries to control one´s physical state in a way that reminds me of how my mother used to control my emotional state. M(IL) makes up mind about sickness/happiness/etc. and son/daughter (in law) has to submit to that. I’m going to have to find some way of dealing with that tendency of my MIL but there are so many things to work on atm...  

[Harri]

Congratulations on the job Polly!  That is great news. 

I used to be afraid of the emotions I’d feel when writing but I feel like my confidence has grown since I’m on this board.

You have worked hard to get to that place Polly so that too is great!  Your progress and strength is even showing up in your dreams! 

I think you are right about me being mostly angry, but I have no problem expressing my anger usually though I can sometimes struggle to hold it back, it is more that i buried so much of it regarding my father.  He was always this hazy, indistinct, mushy blob, especially when compared to my mother. It is interesting to me to note that now when I have a dream with my parents in it, usually they are standing off to the side and are silent.  So they are still present but at least they are not central and they are silent.  Working with you on this thread and on my own has made me realize that a lot of the anger I feel is directed more towards my father.  Much less of it is about my mother now.  When I think about it, it makes sense that I would still be processing anger because I had/have it all mis-directed.  Instead of being angry with my father, I was/am angry with myself.  I'm still trying to sort that out and I imagine it will take a bit of time.

when other coping mechanisms fail –  I also use it to numb the pain and to punish myself for feeling whatever it is at that moment – shame, hate, anger, fear, sadness, being me…. I also want to be able to see the damage. I want to see that I’ve been harmed. It’s not only inside of me but it’s actually *there* for myself and other people to see (which they never seem to do).  I know that it’s very obvious that this is my inner critic on the loose, having just said that my mother wanted to control my emotions. Well I’m working on that, though not always succeeding…

I do not think it is very obvious... .identifying that inner critic is hard but here you are, doing it!  So you think your self injuring is also an expression of the feelings you were never allowed to have? Rather than it 'just' being a way to numb and see the damage caused by the abuse, it actually is an expression of your emotions?  Forgive me if that is exactly what you are saying here.  I am a bit slow this evening and there is some thought that is just right there at the edge of my mind... .I can't seem to grab hold of it though.  Anyway, can you see how you no longer need to express your feelings that way and that your fear of allowing yourself to feel your emotions has lessened considerably?  Can you see a time in the future where you will no longer need to self harm as a way to numb, avoid or even express your feelings?

You mentioned that you want others to see your pain but they never do.  Why do you think it is important for others to see it?  If someone did see, what would you want from them?

BTW, do you have trouble identifying emotions?  I do and in another thread, a board member named Woolspinner talked about a feelings wheel.  I googled it and came across several different ones and I think it is going to be helpful to me.  I wonder if you might want to take a look?  here is a link to one:  www.thefeelingwheel.com  Sometimes i just don't know what to call a particular feeling or I wonder what the root feeling is.  This seems to be a pretty good way of figuring out such things.

I think you are right about not sharing every single detail and still being honest and open.  This board really is helpful in terms of it being a release.  Having an alternative life line is a great way to phrase it.     As you develop even more confidence and build trust in yourself to handle your emotions I am sure you will see even more balance in the relationship.  In the meantime, things are improving and you are aware so that is all good stuff.

I understand what you are saying about me not knowing how to behave any differently with my ex.  and I appreciate your generous assessment.  It is true that was all I knew but I can see how I did make mistakes and caused some problems in the relationship.  It was not all him and I hope i did not make it out that way (tho I still think he is an as*hat... .I alternate between feeling affection and compassion and calling him names   )  No matter how I look at it, the fact is I was not honest with him about who I was.  I did not do it intentionally, but it does not change the fact that I was not being my genuine self.  That I can say the same about him only takes me so far.  The truth is, as non's with uBPD mother's we both had BPD traits.  There was a power imbalance though.  He was always in the one up position.  He needed to be there and I just naturally took the more submissive role... .until I lost my temper or tried to push back. <sighs>  Interlocking wounds... .does not work well when things get rough in a relationship.

Thanks for those suggestions. I never thought of it being an option that I don’t tell her how I feel. I usually make up some story about being on the way up or something because she believes that if your work hard you’ll get anywhere and if you don’t work hard you’re not worthy. I’ll try to actually voice my boundaries instead of just taking those questions as they come.

You'e welcome.  You don't have to tell anybody anything, though now, if you were to tell her that things are looking up and you are on your way... .it is not really making up a story now is it?  both of those things are true now Polly!    

I tried to find out just what is so triggering about her response to me. During T yesterday, I realised that my MIL tries to control one´s physical state in a way that reminds me of how my mother used to control my emotional state. M(IL) makes up mind about sickness/happiness/etc. and son/daughter (in law) has to submit to that. I’m going to have to find some way of dealing with that tendency of my MIL but there are so many things to work on atm...

    Pretty funny we have so many options isn't it!       I can see where her behavior is a means to control and why it would trigger you.  How about telling her you are perfectly capable of deciding when you should and should not work?  Start it with a "thanks, but" and say it with a smile.  You do not need to submit to her need to control, though i know you know that!

[Kwamina]

Hi polly87,

I’m going to have to find some way of dealing with that tendency of my MIL but there are so many things to work on atm...  

Many things indeed  This was your first thread here. It has been way more than just an introduction to the community, we've discussed many important issues here that are also relevant for many other members. So thanks again for your courage of sharing your story here

At this point I want to encourage you to perhaps start some new threads in which you further explore the main issues you're facing now. This will allow you to focus more on one specific issue at a time. I've identified several topics in this thread that you perhaps would like to explore further in new separate threads such as the inner critic, emotional flashbacks, various forms of abuse and the underlying emotional abuse, nightmares, relationships and boundaries to name a few.

I hope to read more of you on this forum and encourage you to focus on certain issues one at a time in new threads. This introductory thread of you has been awesome. I realize how painful your experiences have been and how difficult and quite possibly scary it might have been to open up here. I am glad you did though and I hope this has been helpful for you. See you around Polly87!

PS. My avatar is a parrot and I've been fighting the urge to say this but I can't anymore so: Polly want a cracker?

[polly87]

Hi Harri and Kwamina,

Thanks Harri, I’m so happy I’ve finally got a job! I’ve noticed that while it’s been an exhausting first week it’s also given me confidence and that’s good

Instead of being angry with my father, I was/am angry with myself.  I'm still trying to sort that out and I imagine it will take a bit of time.

I so know what you mean. I feel the same with the anger that’s actually directed at my mother but then I direct it at myself. I think both of us have to remind ourselves often that *we* did nothing wrong. Our parents did us wrong. We are allowed to be angry with them now and we aren´t to blame.

So you think your self injuring is also an expression of the feelings you were never allowed to have? Rather than it 'just' being a way to numb and see the damage caused by the abuse, it actually is an expression of your emotions?

Yes, that’s what I meant. It is a twisted way of expressing those emotions, especially anger, guilt and shame. Maybe I actually want to *see* that I do have emotions that have to be expressed. Also, I use it as a means to say that I’m ashamed when I’m unable to say the words (because of the shame).

Anyway, can you see how you no longer need to express your feelings that way and that your fear of allowing yourself to feel your emotions has lessened considerably?  Can you see a time in the future where you will no longer need to self harm as a way to numb, avoid or even express your feelings?

Yes I’m not as afraid as I used to be to feel my emotions and I’m so relieved that this is actually possible in my life. I hope there’ll be a day in the future when I’ll have kicked the habit…In fact, every time it happens I think: well, I’ll make this the last time… but maybe that’s too optimistic and bound to disappoint…

You mentioned that you want others to see your pain but they never do.  Why do you think it is important for others to see it?  If someone did see, what would you want from them?

In some strange way I would like others to ask: what the heck happened to you? And I’d answer: well, I got ptsd because I was abused as a kid, hence the self-harm.

Of course, this isn’t a conversation that’ll ever take place with me being the second speaker. But in a way I’d like to tell people that *it isn’t easy to have survived this stuff *and that *yes, sexual abuse actually happens in the world*. Now that I’m considering this, I wonder if I should pretend to be okay less often… you know when you meet a couple of friends and they say: hi there, how are ya? And you’re like: well I’ve been feeling like ___ and you actually say: oh I’m kind of okay these days…

So I think it'd be important for others to see because I don't always feel they understand how I feel, but then as you rightly pointed out I'm not sure whether I'd want them to be able to relate.

     Pretty funny we have so many options isn't it!

Haha yes it is! But as Kwamina points out it’d be good to open some new threads for them

Thanks Kwamina for your encouraging words. I think it's a good idea to work on those issues one at a time in separate threads. There’s so much to learn atm and I find I have to limit myself to the most urgent and/or interesting issues. The ones you mention (the inner critic, emotional flashbacks, various forms of abuse and the underlying emotional abuse, nightmares, relationships and boundaries) are indeed the ones that I want to work on now. Maybe nightmares are kind of urgent – I could do with a peaceful night for a change .

Thanks so much to everyone who posted here and/or read this thread and especially to Harri, Kwamina and Ziggiddy.

You guys can’t imagine how much you’ve helped me by your encouragement, sharing your story or just being there and reading this (I saw loads of people have read this and that’s also helped me).

Love and best wishes to all   

PS.

Polly want a cracker?   

Hahaha  , to that I can only say: maybe I would like some food 

[Turkish]

This thread is being locked because it has reached its post limit. There is a lot of worthwhile discussion here. Please feel free to start a new thread (or threads) to explore things further.