L3 Self protection question for L5,

[Targeted]

Well, I also do not feel that the relationship would work without doing some work on herself, even if you were to manage Setting my boundary as it pertains to other men and have that adhered to, The fear of abandonment is still there, when we were at our best is when things turn for the worst, from what I have read here engulfment is also a problem for her and I have witnessed that, paranoia that there is a secret sex ring at just about every public facility, as well as anxiety to be dealt with that she at least has a diagnosis for, when we did go through couples counselling none of this reached the table,  so many other things as well, I do feel like I have the right to talk to her about these things because we have been in each others lives for 10 years and I know her stories, I have met her parents, I know her history, and I know her intimately, what would be the point Setting a boundary that there be no other men and entertain continuing the relationship without wanting to address the underlying issues that have the safety net there in the first place?  I'm sure she could get rid of the safety net in order to get back together, but without the underlying issues being worked on as well it would only return, I have already been through that, it would be like having A beautiful car with a Oil leak, you're going to have to constantly feed it oil, without fixing the leak it is only going to get worse but you are still going to have Beautiful car with a defect,  Oil is the heart of the preservation of the longevity of the engine, why would you not try to fix a oil leak when it is only going to get worse and One day you will run out of oil and blow the engine and be left with nothing? You could've prevented it because you knew about the leak and did not address it, The fault is back on me!  I know it is just a analogy And a relationship such as this would never be an easy one, I would have to accept a lot of things and have to learn to communicate a totally different way because of her emotional needs but I cannot do that by myself, there would be so much more that I would have to do as well and I would be willing to learn and change what I need to on my end in order to accept my beautiful car May always have a oil leak but together we slowed it down enough so we never lose the engine that drives us where we need to go.  Successful relationship with a untreated cluster B?  I read right on the staying board people that are getting the help they need are still struggling, couples that do not have cheating as a problem in their relationship are failing! I do not want to fail Myself, I do not want to fail my children, and I do not want to fail somebody that I love, that's why it is important to me to mention that she has emotional issues that need to be dealt with, I feel as though our relationship and its longevity has earned me the right to be able to speak about it and be honest about what I see,  if I am wrong please feel free to correct me because IM open to and love constructive criticism,  this was not a one year interaction, I know for the both of us it does almost hold the weight of A marriage emotionally.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Targeted]

Targeted, why does it matter if you reengage with her because you chase her or because she chases  you?

You are still resuming a romantic relationship with her... .or not.

If you cannot handle a romantic relationship with someone as flirtatious and needing of male attention as she is, that's the same, either way.

I could either take the stance that she is no good and a flirting cheater and discard her should she make a effort to speak to me again or I can take the stance that this is someone I care about very much that has a serious problem... .

I don't like framing your choice that way. They are both involve a judgement of who she is and what sort of character she has.

Instead I'd look at her behavior, and what it does to you.

Can YOU live with a girlfriend whose behavior is to flirt with other guys?

Can YOU live with a girlfriend whose behavior is to threaten to cheat with other guys?

Can YOU live with a girlfriend whose behavior is to cheat with other guys?

How much will it cost YOU to put up with that behavior? My tolerance level may be different than yours. How much it bugs me may be different than you too.

Why she does it or what drives her to do it won't have much impact on how you feel when she does it.

You are not wrong here, your points are actually very good, and no I cannot tolerate a cheating flirting girlfriend, I am in no contact with her because of that, i'm sorry you did not like my framing my choice that way but we are basically texting here and I have spent 10 years of my life knowing this woman, I am one who sees the good in everybody, I could choose to just see the bad in her but I do not want to, she may never change or want to but that is fine, it is only going to work one way for me and I accept that. I just know are very deeply and intimately and due to the circumstances of our relationship I feel she is going to want to come back to me because I have been better to her then anybody in the past 20 years of her life including a millionaire in her own words, there were certain instances during our relationship that I know were truthful and not mirroring, in hindsight I can now see the difference, like when I was just cooking dinner we were already having a good day she broke down crying so happy because she said I made her house feel like a home, there is more, somethings are questionable but some things are also indisputable!  I understand she is a mixed bag of emotions and this whole situation is a nightmare but I only want to know what to do if she re-engages me to have success, I know all the downfalls of the relationship, my home board is the leaving board, your points are all very valid and I feel them, you are not wrong, but I know she is a beautiful human being Who S-bend severely damaged by life and if I could find something that helps I will do that, if I cant I will accept that

[waverider]

It is possible she changes for her own reasons.

It is possible that being with you provides the security to no longer need outside validation,and so shifts her focus.

The problem is that she is not going to make a genuine change as deliberate condition to get back with you. It is too big a change to be made suddenly.

pwBPD can suddenly change of their own accord, but that doesn't mean they are "fixed" of their issues, it is often just a refocusiing of their obsession/needs and not always onto something healthy. Think of it as a fad that has run its course.

This is what GK is alluding to, she is not going to come to your terms willingly and with lasting commitment. You would have to take her as she is, this phase may pass or it may not. It is up to you to decide if you can accept her wherever she is at, and consolidate it from there.

Even iif she is in the right place, there is a good chance she wont stay there forever, as that is the nature of BPD

[Targeted]

It is possible she changes for her own reasons.

It is possible that being with you provides the security to no longer need outside validation,and so shifts her focus.

The problem is that she is not going to make a genuine change as deliberate condition to get back with you. It is too big a change to be made suddenly.

pwBPD can suddenly change of their own accord, but that doesn't mean they are "fixed" of their issues, it is often just a refocusiing of their obsession/needs and not always onto something healthy. Think of it as a fad that has run its course.

This is what GK is alluding to, she is not going to come to your terms willingly and with lasting commitment. You would have to take her as she is, this phase may pass or it may not. It is up to you to decide if you can accept her wherever she is at, and consolidate it from there.

Even iif she is in the right place, there is a good chance she wont stay there forever, as that is the nature of BPD

Thank you so much for your input, I actually do understand all of this. And Everybody's input is equally respected whether it seems that you are align with my beliefs or you are playing my devils advocate, even if you are neutral on the subject.  If my response Is less than you would expect because you are in a different place than me that does not mean I did not value what you said, everything helps, I am soaking it all in, The only way it works for a individual in their own situation I believe  is to take what you want and feel applies and leave the rest,  I understand everybody is trying to help and not hurt here, The bottom line is I do have a A lot of feelings for her, I am a very patient person and forgiving but those limits have been exceeded, I have come to the realisation of my codependent traits and need to be the White Knight, I have also come to the realisation of what that costs me, The one thing I cannot deny is my true feelings, I want better for me, I want better for her, and I want better for the six children involved, and I am willing to do all the work to achieve that with somebody that will not lift a finger.  I know it's hard to understand my emotions and goals going on written word when you can't see the sincerity of my feelings or hear them for yourself but I know my intentions are just.  I understand the dynamic of all I am going through, I know I want to be a white night, I know she wants to be saved, I know her natural disposition is to test and challenge and fight off everything that she wants the most, I know she is in denial that she has a problem, I know She acts stronger than she is to protect herself and I know why, I know that there are the common particulars that relate to the disorder but I know the Common particulars that relate to the person, I believe even if they have a common disorder everybody is a individual,  I have spent over six months Reading and even got a Web Reader so I could listen to articles well I drive, I do not think there are many threads on this site that have gotten by me where I could not Pull a  piece of information that I could not use, I know that it comes down to her wanting to be the other half of the relationship and doing her part and I cannot change that dynamic but if given the simple opportunity for a recycle how does a guy like me that cares as much as I do about somebody who is having the problems that she does change that small opportunity into something meaningful?  How the heck do I take A possible 5% chance at a recycle and turn it into A oppertunity for betterment of all involved? Once again I love you all for your input and I hope you all understand I do not look down on her for having a problem but I love her enough to stay away if it hurts her as well as love her enough to only want to be part of the solution not the problem.

[formflier]

And Everybody's input is equally respected whether it seems that you are align with my beliefs or you are playing my devils advocate, even if you are neutral on the subject.  

Quick comment... .I've not seen anyone playing "devils advocate".

What I've seen people doing is given their opinion on how best to approach the r/s questions... .and issues that have been raised here... .taking in to account the order to the disorder that we have seen proven out time after time.

True... .there can always be exceptions... .but that is... .IMO ... .extremely rare.


"Taking what applies and leaving the rest... "  is a bit broad... .and I'm somewhat worried by that statement.

I think it would be much better to list out the items you believe you are "taking"... .and the ones that you are "leaving" (and maybe some explanations why... .

And we may be able to guide you better on how "the order to the disorder" will play out given the choices that you indicate you will be making.

Thoughts?

[Targeted]

Thoughts are I struggle with wanting a answer, I am a hands on mechanical thinker,  if I have a car or machine to fix I know I can do it, even if I never saw this machine or car before, because there is Way things work and the way things don't, And even if I am not familiar with the particular problem I know enough to not keep poking At it and changing parts unnecessarily and just find the literature that helps me and guides me to make it work,  I understand feelings and emotions are a lot more delicate than anything mechanical and try to treat it that way but bottom line is with out the proper knowledge and understanding and comprehension of the problem no matter what it is you cannot be apart in fixing it and have to turn it over to somebody else, I am not okay admitting that I am not good enough to take part in fixing this problem fully and turn it over to somebody else yet, even though that is the way that it has gone, A few of the reasons are because she is 52 years old and she is going to really need somebody to accept a percentage of recovery to give her at least half of what she wants, another reason is because I think I want more for her then she wants for herself, another reason is because of my religious beliefs that Jesus could not turn his back Mary Magdalen Who is a prostitute, not that I'm comparing her to that but she's not far off, but also from what I believe Jesus did not even Turn his back on the multitudes that crucified him, but instead prayed for them and their forgiveness, I am not him!  I know I never will be, but I think like that, it is how MY brain works, I am sorry to bring religion into a mixed forum and I do not know how to explain The inner workings of my incentives otherwise, and I am not ashamed of my beliefs! I will respect yours in a matter what they are, please respect mine?

[formflier]

Thoughts are I struggle with wanting a answer, I am a hands on mechanical thinker,  if I have a car or machine to fix I know I can do it, even if I never saw this machine or car before, because there is Way things work and the way things don't, 

This kind of thinking will serve you well if you ever have to "deal with" a pwBPD again. 

The key is that you learn the "order to the disorder"... ."the language"... .because there is one.  Warning:  It will most likely seem strange to you... .but there is one.

That is what we are trying to help people understand that come to this forum.

There is also general "order" to the way uniformed people "get caught up" in a r/s with pwBPD.

There is also a general "order" to the way people become informed and start making healthy choices about their r/s status.

Those "orders" are what we are trying to educate you about... .so that you can minimize the amount of frustration you face... .if you ever are in the situation to make relationship choices with the person again.

Thoughts?

[waverider]

There is definitely an order, or at least a common framework to the disorder, though individuals have variants applied to this framework.

One thing is sure is that this order does not follow the tried and tested pattern of logic that methodical folks are used to adhering to. Hence it is near impossible to interpret cause and effect in the normal way.

eg 2+2= 5 during the week and 7 at weekends. Makes no sense, but it is a consistent pattern and you have to learn that it just is, and adapt to it. Adapt to a new language of thought if you like. Attempting to make it =4 everyday of the week is futile.

This is were the whole radical acceptance concept comes into play

[braveSun]

what would be the point Setting a boundary that there be no other men and entertain continuing the relationship without wanting to address the underlying issues that have the safety net there in the first place?

Hello Targeted

I like your nickname...    

I have been reading some of your posts with great interest. You seem to have a lot of love for this young (52 years old) woman, and I feel for you because it is a challenging situation. I see that you are struggling with your feelings for her, with your personal values, and with your feelings for your own needs for a healthy relationship.

I see that they are not coming together in this story.

You see for yourself, she's not been doing enough so far to be capable of making the relevant changes in herself. You are right in my experience, there is no guarantees. Words don't count. Actions are more solid. Consistent mindful actions over an extended period of time are more what you might need from her in order for you to make a commitment. 

And yes, according to my own limited experience, you don't get a normal relationship just out of stating and defending your boundaries.

That's the point.   

I have a similar experience. My SO has been in therapy for sex addiction for over a year now, because she has a similar 'defence mechanism'. And from there she accepted to attend a short term residential treatment centre and got tested. Found out about her BPD there. It took a h... .of a lot of dedication for her to do the hard work to get into treatment and accept to be tested. And accept the dx even more.

And, it took a h... .of hard work for me to accept that I am not facing a 'normal' relationship potential. I had to seek support for myself, and enter therapy to sort this out for myself. Today I have a support network for just me.

One thing that happened for me, though, is that I decided to put up my boundary that I was not going to see her if she was not ready to be in a faithful monogamous relationship. She kept contacting me, even though I had said that there was no other way for me. So we have not seen each other in person since over a year. She has respected that. But we talk on the phone almost everyday. That's how it gets for us so far. An example.

In our case, in her good times, she says she has the same values as mine about having a monogamous relationship and understands that her compulsive behavior is hurtful. But that comes and goes. She's not done yet.

In the end, if my partner fails to complete recovery from her addiction, I will still be better of for having stood my ground and respected my own values. It's up to me to say when enough is enough.

Everybody is different in their ways and values etc... I share this because I can relate to your suffering as a person who seems to be deeply affected by this person's behavior.


I wish you great wisdom and good luck with your decisions.

[formflier]

 

Congratulations on sticking to your values!

[Targeted]

BraveSun thank you,

You are right it is not coming together in this story, that's why I am no longer in this relationship, yes it does bother me and I am struggling with it, I can accept that 2+2 = 5 and seven on weekends and even have the ability to divide that once in awhile and turn it into a loving moment with her, when her anxiety kicks in I could 99% of the time bring her right out of it by talking to her and touching her the right way at the right time like knowing when to take her hand or rub her back and knowing when not to. I'm so glad you posted this because it totally relates to where I am at, she is sex and attention addicted as well and wants a monogamous relationship without her actions matching her words. You are staying out of your relationship because of your boundary and I have the same boundary and am staying out on that principal as well, I originally started this thread looking for advice on what to do in the situation of a attempted recycle and preventing that while still trying to recognise if there would be any sincerity in her reasons for trying, I am glad I started this thread now because you all have helped me redirect my thinking, The bottom line is I know that I could deal with her emotional needs as a couple but not while in a triangle. The cheating And attention seeking destroys my ability to do that and that is a fact.  I was a little under the impression that maybe if she got help that she would no longer cheat, even if there is some truth to that it is still out of my hands,  I can accept everything about her except for that, I am willing to work on any and all relationship issues with her except for that, so she tries to reengage me here is what I think I am going to do, if she never tries then I don't have to worry about it . please feel free to make suggestions.

I think keeping it simple would be best,

I will just tell that I love her and I want to be with her and I am willing to work on anything with her but I cannot do that as long as there are other men involved.  Because I have been told before this will not be a problem and it is still a problem I need to be shown before I could re-commit now.

Sticking to that is the only thing that I can do and The rest is up to her, would anybody say anything differently?