Denial

[Blimblam]

I can honestly say looking back that I knew exactly when the tides turned I felt her pull away like something wasn't the same anymore but I was in denial.  Things went back to pretty good but it just wasn't the same she had already had the disorder triggered and she just couldn't trust me anymore.  Things were ok for a couple months after that but she was probably already making sure she had potential back ups after that point.  Why? Did I stay?  I was in denial plain and simple. I saw the potential from before but the tides turned and I just had faith.  That lonely child schema just wanting to prove that it was real and I had value I could get her back.  Deep down I knew the entire time.  I just couldn't understand why and because I couldn't through cognitive dissonance I swallowed her lies but I knew she was lying.  A part of me knew. 

If I had continued to stay and try to make it work I would have stayed in the same mess. I left when I had solid evidence but why did I wait?  I was huffed up on the dream of how things were suppoced to work out becUse that was my dream. A narcissistic fantasy I deluded myself with. 

I had a shot that it would work out long term and I hesitated and slipped up into a place their was no recovery from from that point ok I had lost her trust. 

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

I had a shot that it would work out long term and I hesitated and slipped up into a place their was no recovery from from that point ok I had lost her trust.  

Why blame yourself?  They get with a lover, have some loving and then become repulsed - that is the splitting.  Then their mood changes and they love you again for a while.   Then they split you black sooner or later.  :)on't get hung up on trust and something you may have done.  The splitting is a projection of deep guilt within them - so deep even they have no idea what it is about.  They know they do it and may know at some level it is about them and not you.

Just edited to add: probably the guilt relates to some false notion that they did something bad to be abandoned.  It is all screw-ball stuff really.  You do have to feel sorry for them though - it is a whacky life they live.

[Blimblam]

I had a shot that it would work out long term and I hesitated and slipped up into a place their was no recovery from from that point ok I had lost her trust. 

Why blame yourself?  They get with a lover, have some loving and then become repulsed - that is the splitting.  Then their mood changes and they love you again for a while.   Then they split you black sooner or later.  Don't get hung up on trust and something you may have done.  The splitting is a projection of deep guilt within them - so deep even they have no idea what it is about.  They know they do it and may know at some level it is about them and not you.

I know what you mean.  But I actually penetrated to that deepest level but it was sort of extreme circumstances and I let her slip away.  What's done is done. The truth is I knew that already at the time on some level but I was stuck on my own narcisistic fantasy of how things were supposed to turn out. I think it was a lot if guilt for knowing I had slipped and it was too late and just trying to get back what I had already lost.

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

I had a shot that it would work out long term and I hesitated and slipped up into a place their was no recovery from from that point ok I had lost her trust. 

Why blame yourself?  They get with a lover, have some loving and then become repulsed - that is the splitting.  Then their mood changes and they love you again for a while.   Then they split you black sooner or later.  Don't get hung up on trust and something you may have done.  The splitting is a projection of deep guilt within them - so deep even they have no idea what it is about.  They know they do it and may know at some level it is about them and not you.

I know what you mean.  But I actually penetrated to that deepest level but it was sort of extreme circumstances and I let her slip away.  What's done is done. The truth is I knew that already at the time on some level but I was stuck on my own narcisistic fantasy of how things were supposed to turn out. I think it was a lot if guilt for knowing I had slipped and it was too late and just trying to get back what I had already lost.

Please don't take this the wrong way BlimBlam but this reads as if you may have some FOO issues.  There really is nothing you could have done to have kept her around - NOTHING.  She pushed you away and YOU are feeling the guilty party.  The only time they can NOT push someone away is to triangulate - and this amounts to the same thing really and the only difference is that they avoid having to be upfront about it. They know the loving feeling will return so they will triangulate until it does - then the rescuer gets kicked out.  But the pattern can only repeat so many times.  Either they fully discard you or you wake up and discard yourself.

[Blimblam]

There was a point at which I allowed myself to let a situation occur that I deep down knew there was no recovering from.  I had made that choice but from that point on I was in denial.  I have some guilt about that some regret.  But really it's more about why after I knew that deep down in my gut I tried so hard to recover from that and lied to myself gave her openings to lie to me.  I thought I was just being paranoid and didn't want to be a pushy controlling lover.  I felt the energy yet I didn't confront it and draw a boundary right there then when I could sense her lying again just decide them and there it was over.  No I allowed myself to be deluded for a few months. 

In fact I think a lot of us here on this board may have done the same thing.  It's one of those things we just intuitively knew yet decieved ourselves.  This gives the pwBPD to make a mess of us. 

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

There was a point at which I allowed myself to let a situation occur that I deep down knew there was no recovering from.  I had made that choice but from that point on I was in denial.  I have some guilt about that some regret.  But really it's more about why after I knew that deep down in my gut I tried so hard to recover from that and lied to myself gave her openings to lie to me.  I thought I was just being paranoid and didn't want to be a pushy controlling lover.  I felt the energy yet I didn't confront it and draw a boundary right there then when I could sense her lying again just decide them and there it was over.  No I allowed myself to be deluded for a few months. 

In fact I think a lot of us here on this board may have done the same thing.  It's one of those things we just intuitively knew yet decieved ourselves.  This gives the pwBPD to make a mess of us. 

Mate these issues are about you rather than her.  Best of luck.  Turn around, look within and move on.

[billypilgrim]

Blim,

I know what you are going through - I was there during the grieving process (still am grieving).  It's part of bargaining.  You go back and play things over in head repeatedly.  You blame yourself.  There's always something else you think you could have done that could have kept things going.  But I'm convinced that all that would have done was buy more time.   

I look back and I can notice the pull away as well.  I didn't want to believe it when she first left but I know why, it was part of the pattern.  It's part of the disorder.  It's who she is.  She had pulled away a number of times before.  And she always came back after I threw on the charm and wooed her back.  Things became rosey all over again, or at least they appeared that way.  This became the normal pattern and when she left, I was shocked.  I even thought she was going to come back after she first left.  That's when I got the e-mail in which I realized (with the help of my T) that I had finally been split all the way black.

As others have said, there's nothing you could have done - no amount of research or theory could have beaten this if she was unwilling or unknowing that she needs help.  Professional help.  You are not her therapist.  No amount of contorting or twisting from you would have beaten this.  I hated the bargaining phase more than any other as it played into my issues of wanting to fix and needing to be needed in order to fulfill my self worth issues.  Keep working on yourself and you will get through it.  The denial will give way some and as it does, you'll move into sadness and anger.  In the meantime, know that these feelings are part of the process and let yourself grieve.  Focus less on her and more on you.

[Elpis]

I KNOW denial was a huge part of how I stayed in the relationship as long as I did. I had pretty effectively turned off my own intuition in order to play "happy family."

My T asked me what it did for me to lie to myself about the truth of my marriage, and i'm pretty sure it is simply how I was able to continue in the relationship that was actually harming me physically and mentally.

I wanted the r/s to work so badly that I guess I thought that I could just push through the reality and play the game, but what it amounted to was leaving myself in harm's way constantly. Poor choice!

[Elpis]

As others have said, there's nothing you could have done - no amount of research or theory could have beaten this if she was unwilling or unknowing that she needs help.  Professional help.  You are not her therapist.  No amount of contorting or twisting from you would have beaten this.  I hated the bargaining phase more than any other as it played into my issues of wanting to fix and needing to be needed in order to fulfill my self worth issues.  Keep working on yourself and you will get through it.  The denial will give way some and as it does, you'll move into sadness and anger.  In the meantime, know that these feelings are part of the process and let yourself grieve.  Focus less on her and more on you.

Such clear Truth! I was grieving the loss of what I thought I would have in a marriage for the last couple of years I was in it. My eyes had been opened to the Truth and I knew it was out of my hands. That bargaining thing, amen to that being the worst!

Blimblam, I know from your other posts that you're a deep thinker and i'm guessing you do the same thing I do and overanalyze the stuff that's in the past and that you can't do anything about. I know for us that feels necessary (i'm a self-professed "over thinker" and that we will spend some time there, we just need to recognize that we need to learn from our past so as to not repeat it, but there's nothing we can change in it. And the more we "coulda woulda shoulda" ourselves the less we're doing for ourselves in the present--and this present is where we live.

Be kind to yourself--we all could have done some things differently, but all that would have done is change the events within the relationship, it wouldn't have changed the eventual ending of it. 

[billypilgrim]

Be kind to yourself--we all could have done some things differently, but all that would have done is change the events within the relationship, it wouldn't have changed the eventual ending of it. 

This.  And if you really need to change yourself or change how you would have done things in order to make things "work" or make things more functional, then is that really a r/s that you want for yourself?  To constantly need to bend and twist in order to meet someone else's insatiable needs?  I'm not trying to invalidate your issues, just trying to point you towards a better place. 

[Elpis]

I always have to remind myself that all the gyrations I went through within the relationship were only holding up the appearance of a happy marriage. It was never really reciprocal.

To constantly need to bend and twist in order to meet someone else's insatiable needs? 

I love the way you phrased that--I really should be much more flexible after all the bending and twisting I did in the last 38 years!

[Blimblam]

Thanks folks

It just sort of comes down to what's done is done and I can't go back and change anything.  I do have some regrets but I am working through them. Where I am at now is facing my layers of denial which is quite painful. 

I know a lot of us believe that a rs may have been impossible but I trully think it comes down to the individual.  With a pwBPD what's really hard to gain is their trust when you get to that layer the disorder is triggered. When my ex got to that layer she went into a psychosis. If I knew what I knew now I could have walked her through it.  I let her enter expensive mental health programs where they just drugged her gave her a structures life and indoctrinated her like a cult. It's not even about studying it comes down to one thing, trust.

Really the more I learn it's like putting words and new insights into things I already intuitively knew.  The denial and guilt was a response to the inconsistency of letting her be taken away from me and trusting the medical system with her. It's because I didn't trust my own gifts and I doubted her.  In that moment I gave her away and made an excuse.

In a case like this all the twisting and turning after making that one decision is like a big excuse to her and myself.  I am not being hard on myself about this but I just know the truth.  The thing is after the fact of that choice I still tried to make things work I told myself if I just twist and turn it will be ok and if it doesn't it's not my fault becuase I twisted and turned. That is just narcissism plain and simple. It wasn't malignant narcissism it was altruistic but it was all just because of my denial. I was trying to prove something and create a narrative to believe in.

I think in general we allow a pwBPD to walk all over us because we are lying to ourselves. 

[Rise]

If I knew what I knew now I could have walked her through it. 

Blim, I'm not 100% sure I'm reading this correctly, and I want to make sure I'm getting the correct context. Are you saying that you could have walked her through her psychotic break, or are you saying that you could have walked her through her BPD?

[Blimblam]

If I knew what I knew now I could have walked her through it. 

Blim, I'm not 100% sure I'm reading this correctly, and I want to make sure I'm getting the correct context. Are you saying that you could have walked her through her psychotic break, or are you saying that you could have walked her through her BPD?

Yeah because she trusted me.  The thing is I didn't know then what I do now.  Could or should I is besides the point. It didn't happen and it's too late now I didn't know then what I know now.  It would have been a full time thing and would lasted a long time. 

[vortex of confusion]

Yeah because she trusted me.  The thing is I didn't know then what I do now.  Could or should I is besides the point. It didn't happen and it's too late now I didn't know then what I know now.  It would have been a full time thing and would lasted a long time. 

I have been living in denial for years. I have been ignoring my gut feelings for years.

Until I found this site, I thought that I could help my husband and walk him through whatever angst he may have been feeling. I had been contorting myself in all sorts of ways. Because of this site, I have access to tools that I never had before. Even with those tools, it is a huge undertaking to try to walk somebody through things. Yes, things have become more peaceful since I found this site but this is not what I want. I do not want to spend the rest of my life taking care of a husband with a mental illness. Does that make me a selfish and horrible person? Does it make me selfish that I want to be in a reciprocal relationship?

I have lived in my own little fantasy world for so long that it is very difficult to step out of it. I am still living with my husband and I am still trying to hold on to something. I don't know what it is. Maybe it is the fact that the truth is still way too difficult for me to swallow right now.

[hurting300]

What does FFO issues mean?

[vortex of confusion]

What does FFO issues mean?

Family of origin issues

Some people think that a lot of the problems that people have in adulthood are a direct result of things that happened when they were children. If a person in the family of origin has a mental illness, that could negatively impact a person and have them relive some of those things as adults.

For example, mental illness is rampant in my family of origin so I didn't see anything wrong with my husband for years. What I got from my husband in the very beginning was still better than some of the treatment that I received from some of the people in my family of origin. My idea of normal was so skewed that it prevented me from being able to have a normal and healthy relationship with my spouse. That isn't to say that it is my fault. It is just that I didn't have a healthy example to draw upon so I was prone to finding somebody that was not completely stable.

In order to detach and move forward, it is sometimes helpful to evaluate issues that may have been picked up from the family of origin.

[hurting300]

What does FFO issues mean?

Family of origin issues

Some people think that a lot of the problems that people have in adulthood are a direct result of things that happened when they were children. If a person in the family of origin has a mental illness, that could negatively impact a person and have them relive some of those things as adults.

For example, mental illness is rampant in my family of origin so I didn't see anything wrong with my husband for years. What I got from my husband in the very beginning was still better than some of the treatment that I received from some of the people in my family of origin. My idea of normal was so skewed that it prevented me from being able to have a normal and healthy relationship with my spouse. That isn't to say that it is my fault. It is just that I didn't have a healthy example to draw upon so I was prone to finding somebody that was not completely stable.

In order to detach and move forward, it is sometimes helpful to evaluate issues that may have been picked up from the family of origin.

see my childhood was great, mom and dad rarely argued and took care of me. I simply met the wrong woman. And was tricked. Sometimes that's it.

[vortex of confusion]

see my childhood was great, mom and dad rarely argued and took care of me. I simply met the wrong woman. And was tricked. Sometimes that's it.

Very true! For some of us, it helps to look at that stuff and see if there is any validity to the FOO stuff. I know there are issues with my FOO but I don't see the stuff with my husband being a result of FOO stuff. I used my FOO as a crutch so that I could continue to deny the reality of my relationship with my husband. I thought that I had to be the problem because I came from such a messed up FOO. I have denied so many things because I simply did not want to see or admit that my husband and I do not have the glorious marriage that I tried to project and create because of my own unwillingness to admit that I was not happy with my husband and haven't been for years.

[Blimblam]

What does FFO issues mean?

Family of origin issues

Some people think that a lot of the problems that people have in adulthood are a direct result of things that happened when they were children. If a person in the family of origin has a mental illness, that could negatively impact a person and have them relive some of those things as adults.

For example, mental illness is rampant in my family of origin so I didn't see anything wrong with my husband for years. What I got from my husband in the very beginning was still better than some of the treatment that I received from some of the people in my family of origin. My idea of normal was so skewed that it prevented me from being able to have a normal and healthy relationship with my spouse. That isn't to say that it is my fault. It is just that I didn't have a healthy example to draw upon so I was prone to finding somebody that was not completely stable.

In order to detach and move forward, it is sometimes helpful to evaluate issues that may have been picked up from the family of origin.

see my childhood was great, mom and dad rarely argued and took care of me. I simply met the wrong woman. And was tricked. Sometimes that's it.

You see though it's not always about the foo or that the foo was abusive.  It's about mindsets that make us vulnerable in some way we are unaware of.  Super supportive parents that treat the kid wonderful may instill a cultural belief in a child, like people (x) are inferior and deserve the negative things that happen to them.  You deserve greatness because ... .If you live by these principles.  This mentality could have been learned from peers in school or teachers or some other authority figure.  Ok so this sets up a whole way of perceiving the world and drives the individual to seek out situations and people that validate that conditioned cultural perception.  This is where a person may become vulnerable to a pwBPD because they are so validating.


Vortex,

You see I was in denial after I let her go then received her back indoctrinated and thought I could make things right if I just did this or that.  My intuition deep down told me the truth but my beliefs and wanting to make things right mindset pushed down my intuition leaving me succeptable to being manipulated. 

[hurting300]

see my childhood was great, mom and dad rarely argued and took care of me. I simply met the wrong woman. And was tricked. Sometimes that's it.

Very true! For some of us, it helps to look at that stuff and see if there is any validity to the FOO stuff. I know there are issues with my FOO but I don't see the stuff with my husband being a result of FOO stuff. I used my FOO as a crutch so that I could continue to deny the reality of my relationship with my husband. I thought that I had to be the problem because I came from such a messed up FOO. I have denied so many things because I simply did not want to see or admit that my husband and I do not have the glorious marriage that I tried to project and create because of my own unwillingness to admit that I was not happy with my husband and haven't been for years.

you are totally right. When I went to therapy to see if I was the "problem" they went thru all that stuff. It takes a strong person to search like you have.

[Rise]

You see I was in denial after I let her go then received her back indoctrinated and thought I could make things right if I just did this or that.

Blim, I'm sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting your story right. I'd normally just go back and read previous posts, but as I'm sure you are aware, you have a lot of posts to sort through. What do you mean she was indoctrinated? Indoctrinated into what? This was after her psychotic episode that landed her in the hospital correct?

[Blimblam]

You see I was in denial after I let her go then received her back indoctrinated and thought I could make things right if I just did this or that.

Blim, I'm sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting your story right. I'd normally just go back and read previous posts, but as I'm sure you are aware, you have a lot of posts to sort through. What do you mean she was indoctrinated? Indoctrinated into what? This was after her psychotic episode that landed her in the hospital correct?

Lol it's not too important at this point but she went through a detox and rehab environment.

That's not really my focus point.  It's more about how after she got back I could sense things had changed and hoped that things could would go back.  I lost her trust but I thought I could get it back.  Now it's not that it's my fault or anything. It's just what happened. 

Really the denial is when I knew that things had changed and that it would go back to how they were. Things just didn't feel the same after that point I could sense her distance.

What I think happens in general with us on this board is despite signs that the pwBPD is pulling away and more distant not being open and honest we stay anyway. Even though we can sense this. We convince ourselves we are paranoid and this alows us to be taken advantage of.

[fromheeltoheal]

I was in denial too Blim, forging ahead in the face of crap, trying to get back to something that was tenuous and fragile to begin with.  But it's helpful to cut ourselves some slack too: denial is a defense mechanism to protect the ego from something it can't yet cope with, and I don't think I'm the only one, but that was the first time I'd ever been that emotionally close to someone with a clear mental illness, in fact I didn't even know what it was until after I left her.  Forging ahead with someone healthier would have stood a good chance of working, but I was way out of my comfort zone constantly, trying to make sense of the nonsensical.  We did the best we could under the circumstances.

And with a borderline, someone who's constantly focused on abandonment and convinced it will happen, and has plenty of references to back it up, it takes very little to lose trust.  It can be as simple as relaxing into the relationship after the honeymoon period; when the intensity is gone contrast is noted, and it's like we already left, when we had no intention of leaving.  You may have blown it once and that was the turning point in the trust, but if it hadn't been that it would have been something else, precarious that trust and easy to blow, which has little to do with us.

[Tibbles]

I'm with fromfeeltoheal. The simple truth is that you were going to "blow it". We all were. No amount of tipping toeing and careful planning was going to prevent it. It happens out of the blue, you relax for a milli second, take a breath and they feel it and bang that's it, the episodes begins again. Looking back - yes the what if's seem possible and plausible, but no they are not. Admitting that is heart breaking and that is why denial sets in (I think of it that way at any rate). Plus it seems so ridiculous, so ridiculous that they get upset over the things they get upset over. That side of it can't be true, so we deny that as well!

[Rise]

Lol it's not too important at this point but she went through a detox and rehab environment.

That's not really my focus point.  It's more about how after she got back I could sense things had changed and hoped that things could would go back.  I lost her trust but I thought I could get it back.  Now it's not that it's my fault or anything. It's just what happened. 

Really the denial is when I knew that things had changed and that it would go back to how they were. Things just didn't feel the same after that point I could sense her distance.

What I think happens in general with us on this board is despite signs that the pwBPD is pulling away and more distant not being open and honest we stay anyway. Even though we can sense this. We convince ourselves we are paranoid and this alows us to be taken advantage of.

I gotcha, as I said, I'm just trying to piece together your story. It's nice having context to what's being shared. It makes it easier for me to avoid foot-in-mouth syndrome.

I think you're right, denial often does play a huge role in our relationships (or the end of them as the case may be). I'm not sure that's always why we allow ourselves to be taken advantage of, but it can certainly play it's part.

I'm a big fan of radical acceptance. I know that's a term mostly used on the Staying Boards, but I think it's important for us too. To me, it means really accepting the reality of not only our exes and their disorder, but ourselves, and our relationships. Seeing and understanding things for what they really are, not what we want or need them to be. It's certainly not easy, particularly as it means taking a really frank, honest look in the mirror. But it was a really important part of me getting through my own bad times.

[Blimblam]

Yeah I feel you guys.  A lot of guilt can come with not being perfect and losing the trust.  And your right losing it could be over imagined slights.  Truth be told I don't think it's ever really fully given without them full on freaking out because to access that part of themself is so painfull. 

I don't think denial was the reason why that reason is much more complex.  I don't even think I really chose to be in denial. It was more about I knew she loved me and if she loved me how could she be lying to me etc.  Understanding that her self is fragmented and compartmentalized helped me to understand but I realize now on some level I always knew. It had to do with protecting my ego from the choice I made when I doubted myself and the relationship that led to the break in her trust.  I don't see it now as my fault but I did then and I compartmentalized my own shame because i felt guilty. 

[Elpis]

I made the assumption that my husband would be treating our relationship the same way I did, and that's where I got into trouble. I kept on trying to love and help him, and he kept on saying the words "i love you" but the actions said differently, his actions said "i don't have any trouble slaughtering you and sacrificing you on the altar of my sickness." That sounded rather melodramatic! But it describes pretty accurately what it felt like.

[vortex of confusion]

I made the assumption that my husband would be treating our relationship the same way I did, and that's where I got into trouble. I kept on trying to love and help him, and he kept on saying the words "i love you" but the actions said differently, his actions said "i don't have any trouble slaughtering you and sacrificing you on the altar of my sickness." That sounded rather melodramatic! But it describes pretty accurately what it felt like.

Oh my goodness, you stated exactly what my problem has been for years.

It doesn't seem melodramatic to me at all. I have had the thought, "I could be laying there dying and he would look the other way or tell me 'just a minute'" This is kind of funny. He and I had a discussion and I told him that he has never really made me feel special. I know, that sounds really stupid and very BPDish. His response was priceless. He told me, "The only person that is special to me is me." Wow, what a slap in the face with reality.

[Elpis]

I made the assumption that my husband would be treating our relationship the same way I did, and that's where I got into trouble. I kept on trying to love and help him, and he kept on saying the words "i love you" but the actions said differently, his actions said "i don't have any trouble slaughtering you and sacrificing you on the altar of my sickness." That sounded rather melodramatic! But it describes pretty accurately what it felt like.

Oh my goodness, you stated exactly what my problem has been for years.

It doesn't seem melodramatic to me at all. I have had the thought, "I could be laying there dying and he would look the other way or tell me 'just a minute'" This is kind of funny. He and I had a discussion and I told him that he has never really made me feel special. I know, that sounds really stupid and very BPDish. His response was priceless. He told me, "The only person that is special to me is me." Wow, what a slap in the face with reality.

WELL THEN! Sounds like your h is firmly in touch with his inner and outer selves! Too bad those selves aren't too pretty. 

I stayed confused for a long time because occasionally my uBPDh could be there for me, so I never knew which part of him to expect. So when the part of him that appeared to consider me showed up I stayed hooked in longer.