went to custody hearing today

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Getting the lies and accusations down on paper - even if it's your own notes and not something that can be used in court - is a good strategy I think.

It's the analog version of holding up a video camera.

It might also work proactively, you never know. Maybe she won't tell lies. Another Christmas miracle!

Yes, I think someone taking notes openly is likely to draw out better behavior in all the participants - even the note-taker.  I find it much easier to avoid interrupting the other party when I'm taking notes, for example, and since I'm holding up that standard - "I am writing down what you say and if it's not true or not fair I won't continue this meeting" - that also reminds me of the need to give the benefit of the doubt - not to make any accusations I'm not 100% sure of.

It's not quite the same as video or audio recording, because my notes will always be flawed.  But I have found it to be pretty effective... .here's an example:

Before deciding on divorce, my wife and I met with a marriage counselor (actually the fourth one we had tried!).  My wife chose her - affiliated with my wife's church - but I bought in completely and felt good about this therapist.  She met with us both the first time, and got a good understanding of the basic issues, then proposed to meet with us individually - my wife first.  When it was my turn, she began the meeting by reading from the DSM-IV - the section on BPD - and asked if those criteria sounded like my wife, and I said most of them did.  This was the first time I ever heard of BPD!

She told me, "I'm not qualified to diagnose, but from what you have told me it's likely your wife has BPD."  She recommended "Stop Walking On Eggshells", which ultimately brought me here.

A few months later, I gave up and decided on divorce, and custody became an issue.  I had initially (and very foolishly) signed a paper agreeing to give my wife primary custody;  now I realized what a mistake that had been, but my lawyer told me I could be bound by what I had signed when we first separated.  But when I told her about what the therapist said, she asked to see my notes.  She then called the therapist, with my wife's lawyer on the line (but not me), and read my notes to her, and said, "Is this an accurate summary of what you and Matt discussed?" and the therapist said it was.

Based on that, my previous agreement regarding custody was thrown out, because it was clear that I had new information:  that my wife might have BPD, which would impact her ability to be a good parent.  And it all hinged on my notes, which were accepted by the therapist as an accurate account of what she had told me.

Long story short, taking notes can help in these difficult meetings, even if they don't "prove" anything or aren't admissible in court.

[Matt]

Getting the lies and accusations down on paper - even if it's your own notes and not something that can be used in court - is a good strategy I think.

It's the analog version of holding up a video camera.

It might also work proactively, you never know. Maybe she won't tell lies. Another Christmas miracle!

Yes, I think someone taking notes openly is likely to draw out better behavior in all the participants - even the note-taker.  I find it much easier to avoid interrupting the other party when I'm taking notes, for example, and since I'm holding up that standard - "I am writing down what you say and if it's not true or not fair I won't continue this meeting" - that also reminds me of the need to give the benefit of the doubt - not to make any accusations I'm not 100% sure of.

It's not quite the same as video or audio recording, because my notes will always be flawed.  But I have found it to be pretty effective... .here's an example:

Before deciding on divorce, my wife and I met with a marriage counselor (actually the fourth one we had tried!).  My wife chose her - affiliated with my wife's church - but I bought in completely and felt good about this therapist.  She met with us both the first time, and got a good understanding of the basic issues, then proposed to meet with us individually - my wife first.  When it was my turn, she began the meeting by reading from the DSM-IV - the section on BPD - and asked if those criteria sounded like my wife, and I said most of them did.  This was the first time I ever heard of BPD!

She told me, "I'm not qualified to diagnose, but from what you have told me it's likely your wife has BPD."  She recommended "Stop Walking On Eggshells", which ultimately brought me here.

A few months later, I gave up and decided on divorce, and custody became an issue.  I had initially (and very foolishly) signed a paper agreeing to give my wife primary custody;  now I realized what a mistake that had been, but my lawyer told me I could be bound by what I had signed when we first separated.  But when I told her about what the therapist said, she asked to see my notes.  She then called the therapist, with my wife's lawyer on the line (but not me), and read my notes to her, and said, "Is this an accurate summary of what you and Matt discussed?" and the therapist said it was.

Based on that, my previous agreement regarding custody was thrown out, because it was clear that I had new information:  that my wife might have BPD, which would impact her ability to be a good parent.  And it all hinged on my notes, which were accepted by the therapist as an accurate account of what she had told me.

Long story short, taking notes can help in these difficult meetings, even if they don't "prove" anything or aren't admissible in court.

[david]

So ex calls this morning and leaves a voice mail saying she had to cancel our co parent counseling meeting because she is ill. She did sound sick. I sent an email asking if I could pick up the boys since she is ill and she can pick them up when she is feeling better. I anticipated she would not respond so for the first time in four years I called her cell. She answered and I simply said that I sent an email she needs to look at soon. She said okay. That was about 8:30 am. She replied at a few minutes before 4 pm saying that she is in bed and so is S11. They are both ill and S16 is taking care of them both. I try calling the house phone (which has been missing since Friday) and S11 picks up. I ask him how he is feeling and he says he has a sore throat but feels fine. We talk for about 20 minutes. Normal conversation with S11. He then starts saying that the driveway has lots of cracks in it. He is looking through the front window and his moms car is not in the driveway. I ask him if his mom is home. He tells me she went to work and won't be home until late tonight. We continue talking and he then gives the phone to S16. I ask S16 if mom is working and he says yes. I just wanted to make sure. He then adds that she was working yesterday too.

The thing that gets me is we went to court on Friday. She wanted the next four days (Sat, Sun, today, and Tuesday) with the boys to make up for the time she didn't see them during Thanksgiving. I explained to my atty that I agreed in Sept that she could have the entire Thanksgiving holiday this year. She wanted to go visit her siblings out of state and take the boys with her. This happened the last time we went to court and the judge ordered a continuance because my atty had too much evidence. I agreed back then because I was getting (temporarily) extra time during the school year which is what I was seeking. The boys do 90% of all their school work when with me so I didn't want to argue about a holiday. The thing is, ex went to visit her siblings and left the boys with me anyway. They apparently told her they did not want to go so she decided to go by herself.

We actually had plans for three of the four days now and that was all changed. So bottom line, she gets the four days and at least two of those days she went to work and left the boys at her place. When I was talking to S11 he actually said he was disappointed being at his mom's. Bpd is truely the most twisted disorder out there.

[momtara]

Frustrating.  Do you get the boys for Thanksgiving next year?

Well, at least they are safe... .

[david]

Our court order has Thanksgiving rotate from year to year so that works well.

Additionally the entire holiday is split 50/50. She does follow the court order fairly well so that is usually not a problem. She has been trying to work around the order lately and I simply state the order and she doesn't challenge it. She recognizes the court and it's power.

[momtara]

Well, like many of us, you just had a sucky situation, but in the end, you and the kids are ok, so I guess chalk it up to learning experience and remember that you're doing better than a lot of dads on here... .for what it's worth.    That was pretty crappy of her.

[bravhart1]

So David did you call her out about canceling co parent meeting and

Lying about being sick?  It would be pretty easy for co parent counselor to confirm

That she was at work. Might be good to just act like you care because you want to make

Sure cp counseling is productive and be curious why she is avoiding it.

[david]

I did point it out at the last meeting. I think the counselor already "gets it". The meeting started with ex accusing me again of all sorts of things. She actually read from a list. There must have been about 30 things she rattled off. The counselor looked at me and I simply said the majority of things ex said are simply incorrect. Most of it was about me alienating the boys from her. I only addressed the last three and said I would have to have the list read to me again because there were so many things she said. The counselor then took charge and wanted to know if there was some way I would be able to talk to the boys at ex's place. The phone seems to get lost a lot at her place. ( yes that is sarcasm) Ex wants me to call her cell phone instead of her house phone to talk to the boys. I said I had no interest in talking to ex except through email. I offered to purchase S16 a land line that he could plug into the connection in his room at her place. She made several lame reasons why that would not work. I had an answer for everyone. This went back and forth until the counselor told ex that I was being very reasonable. Ex then agreed.

Time ran out by then. However the counselor did mention what the topics for discussion will be next. They were all my concerns. After leaving I realized ex has not had any concerns except that I am abusive blah blah blah.

One of my biggest concerns is school work and that ex doesn't assist, help, guide either boy. I received an email a few days ago telling me that ex hired a private tutor for S11. I have no problem with it since it is only going on at ex's place and she doesn't help either boy. I do not believe she knows how to help and that has been my main focus for the boys. Her hiring a tutor just bolsters my point that she is not helping. I picked the boys up at school the other day and S11 told me all about it. Ex's email claims the tutor has over 30 years experience teaching. S11 told me the who the tutor is and she is no more then in her mid 30's. I know her and she is a very good teacher. Ex has to fabricate everything to some degree to make herself feel batter.

[momtara]

Will the tutor really get to do her job, or will she be fired immediately?  It's good you know who she is.

[livednlearned]

Not excusing your ex at all, because she probably isn't doing the minimum amount of work to support the boys and their school work. But I have to hand it to her for doing something.

[Nope]

Not excusing your ex at all, because she probably isn't doing the minimum amount of work to support the boys and their school work. But I have to hand it to her for doing something.

Yay! We lowered the bar enough that she could meet a minimum expectation! LOL!

[Matt]

My BPD ex is very intelligent and educated, but she was horrible at helping the kids with their homework when they were younger, and now that they are in high school I don't think they ever ask her for help.  (They don't need much of my help either.  Their main parent now is Wikipedia.)

She wasn't patient, and wasn't focused on what the kids needed;  she tended to fuss and fight - blame the kid, blame the teacher, complain about the textbook - so much negativity that it wasn't worth the hassle.

[livednlearned]

Not excusing your ex at all, because she probably isn't doing the minimum amount of work to support the boys and their school work. But I have to hand it to her for doing something.

Yay! We lowered the bar enough that she could meet a minimum expectation! LOL!

[david]

I picked the boys up today at school. S11 talked to me about the tutor and it wasn't the person I thought it was. However, it was someone I know and she is very good. She is the second person at their school that "got" ex's number so this is a positive.

She helped S11 with his writing assignment. He has a writing assignment every week. I have him do a rough draft on Monday. He is with his mom on Tuesday and Wednesday. I pick them up on Thursday and he usually does his final draft then since he doesn't do anything on Tues or Wed. Today he had his final draft done so it makes my life much easier. It also makes it easier on S11 and he did talk about that since he now doesn't have so much work on Thursday.

I haven't talked to my atty yet but I view this as another piece of evidence that I should have the extra time I have been seeking. I have copies of all his homework so I have everything since Sept and this is the third writing assignment he did at his mom's. He has done nine when with me. That is both the rough drafts and the final draft. He did one rough draft at his mom's and three final drafts which includes this weeks. The two drafts he did at his mom's were actually written by his mom. One is so obvious I laughed when I saw it. She actually wrote it and left her written copy in his school bag so I have it now. He simply copied it into his homework book. If S11 did write it he should be applying for colleges now. The vocabulary is way beyond his age and understanding. I asked him to read it when I first saw it. He said he didn't write it and he had a difficult time reading many of the words. I guess ex was trying to show how smart she was by using big words. 

[Matt]

David,

Can I give you some "tough love"?

I think you're doing a great job with all these issues, and it sounds like it's going to work out well for your S11.

Where I'm concerned is with the way you are looking at and describing some things, and how that might affect your thinking, and how it might be perceived by the court.

Here's what I mean:

In your last post you describe something that is very positive for your son - the tutor is a new and probably positive adult in his life, and someone who is apparently able to deal with his mom pretty well, so now your son is getting more and better help and maybe learning good study habits too - getting things done early in the week, not at the last minute.

One way to look at this is, "S11 is getting more help and it's a good thing for him."  But the way you present it is, "Here's more evidence that I'm a better parent than his mom is."

I've been there - and posted it all here! - so I know exactly what it's like - how hard it is to shift from tolerating someone with BPD in your house all the time, then giving up on the relationship and shifting your focus to helping the kids.  And I want the world to understand how hard my ex has made my life, and how hard she is still making it, for me and for the kids;  and how hard I'm working to give the kids all the support they need.  I want the world to say, "You're doing a great job and she isn't!".  Venting here helps because everybody here understands.

Still... .I think we have to work hard, to shift our focus from "I'm a better parent than she is!" to "Solutions for the kids."  I'm still working to make that shift - as my posts here show - it ain't easy.  Maybe sometimes we have to "Fake it til you make it" - speak in terms of "Solutions for the kids" while still thinking a lot about "I'm a better parent than she is!".

I hope you will take this as helpful!  Been there done that!

Matt

[david]

Yes, I hear what you are saying Matt. Court requires a different presentation then the way it is presented here. It seems that it would be more of a read between the lines for the judge.

Trying to describe my thinking a little clearer: I think it is good what ex is doing for S11. I tried to co parent with her about these things 3 and 4 years ago and that is all in emails. That was what I was referring to as evidence. Back then I tried to find a way to help the boys with her and she kept arguing in her email replies. Her replies never mentioned anything about the boys. That was why I decided to file for more time in 2012. The fact that it took her from 2012 to now for her to actually figure a way to help S11 is concerning. I suspect her atty is helping her or she is in some form of therapy (which she hinted at recently). That is all positive for both boys.

The problem as I see it is that if the idea comes from me she needs to fight it to the bitter end. Having someone else convince her that an idea of mine makes sense is what the co parent counselor seems to be doing or at least trying to do. I know that sounds one sided but during the meetings ex has never offered any ideas of her own. All she does is repeat how abusive I am and that she is their mother and therefore she should have majority time. The only other thing she has threatened is that if I am able to get child support she will list her house and sell it because she will not be able to live there anymore. That would move the kids out of their current school district. I actually crunched the numbers and she is financially fine even if she paid child support in the amount she claims she would have to pay. It has nothing to do with my motivation and her numbers are extremely exaggerated (wrong). I always view things from ex as winding up in court so I pay attention and make sure I can prove or disprove what she is saying. The few times she has said something that was correct I agreed or found a compromise that worked for everyone. My compromises have always worked out well in court. It has become my normal way of thinking when dealing with ex. I don't like that but I haven't found another way that works.

In the co parent meetings I do listen to everything being said and if ex ever does suggest something for the benefit of the kids I would be extremely pleased and supportive. I, very rarely, get emails with a positive idea about the boys from ex. When I do I agree with it without hesitation even if I don't totally agree. As long as I see no downside for the boys it is simply a different way to do something.

I do appreciate tough love. 

[Matt]

(And I could have been on the other side of this conversation not long ago... .)

[livednlearned]

I'm glad you two had this conversation... .it really helped me understand something I've been trying to articulate. It's a theme that runs through a lot of these threads but I've had a hard time putting my finger on it.

It's the idea that when we present ourselves as problem solvers in court, and behave in ways where we are genuinely interested in resolving a problem, it actually makes the BPD behaviors stand out even more.

[Matt]

It's the idea that when we present ourselves as problem solvers in court, and behave in ways where we are genuinely interested in resolving a problem, it actually makes the BPD behaviors stand out even more.

Yeah, that's it exactly.

I remember a scene - almost out of a movie - a somewhat informal hearing before a judge.  Ex, me, both attorneys, all about money - some disputes about which money was mine and which was hers - a large bonus I received after we separated.

Anyhoo... .

Both attorneys spoke but it was mostly posturing - nothing accomplished.  The judge was patient but wanted the parties to settle it - not a ruling which could be appealed.  My wife spoke - said something about "I think I'm entitled to... ." to which the judge replied quickly, "Ms. Matt, you're not entitled to anything until there is a settlement and I approve it.", which I quite enjoyed.  45 minutes or so of blah blah blah... .

Then I realized that nobody was going to solve this but me, so I went to an easel with chart paper on it - why it was in the court I have no idea - and began to write numbers - kind of brainstormy - and outlined how the issue could be settled.  Not "this is right" or "based on the law" but more "How about this... .?".  Everybody listened politely and asked good questions to understand.  I felt like I was pitching to a customer, but a soft-core pitch - collaborative.  Some good ideas from both attorneys to refine what I was saying and I made those changes to the numbers on the chart paper - and we were done.

The court was looking for leadership.  The judge didn't want to do it because he wanted the parties to settle it.  The attorneys couldn't do it because they didn't want to undermine their clients' positions.  My wife couldn't do it because... .well you know.  Only I could provide the leadership, and only if I did it in a quasi-objective, collaborative, aw-shucks manner - some fake humility.  It wasn't hard at all, once I realized I had to do it.

I see your situation very similarly, except it's not about money for you right now, it's about school, homework, and how much time S11 spends with each parent.  If you can make win/win proposals - or proposals that seem to more-or-less meet the needs of both parents and especially of your son - and if you pitch them in a humble, low-key but confident way - you'll probably get the support of all the professionals involved, even your ex's lawyer.  Then, surrounded by professionals supporting your approach, your ex will probably go along.

(But if the professionals sense that this is an attempt to win at your ex's expense, they'll turn off fast.)

[ForeverDad]

So her or her lawyer's claim will be that now that he has a tutor then everything is hunky dory and so let's dismiss the case.   So anticipate that tactic and be prepared for a rebuttal.  The point below would be a good one.

Back then I tried to find a way to help the boys with her and she kept arguing in her email replies. Her replies never mentioned anything about the boys. That was why I decided to file for more time in 2012. The fact that it took her from 2012 to now for her to actually figure a way to help S11 is concerning. I suspect her atty is helping her or she is in some form of therapy (which she hinted at recently). That is all positive for both boys.

The problem as I see it is that if the idea comes from me she needs to fight it to the bitter end. Having someone else convince her that an idea of mine makes sense is what the co parent counselor seems to be doing or at least trying to do.

She had over two years to find an alternate solution to your solution, you seeking more time with the children.  So point out that it is a pattern of resistance to solutions, and even if a tutor addresses this problem, that doesn't mean other issues or future issues are fixed too.  Secondly, point out that if the court decides a tutor is an adequate fix and wants to just dismiss the case then what is to guarantee that the tutor is not let go thereafter or some other complication?  Then you would face restarting the case over the very same issue all over again and by the time anything gets done - 2-3 more years will have passed taking up limited resources and precious court time - the kids will be nearly out of school and nearly grown.

[momtara]

it's not certain that this is a good thing for the children, though.  why would BPD-ex suddenly hire this tutor and stick with her and do the right thing permanently?  she may be doing it now just for show, and as soon as the hearing is over, it all goes to pot.  a tutor is a bandaid - ex should be helping the kids too.  so i think you have to show that you provide a more stable environment and have pushed the boys to learn and do better, or something.  hmmm, does that make any sense?  The tutor is a good thing, but it'd be better if there was a tutor plus the supportive dad who brought about these great changes.