New beginning...

[MaroonLiquid]

Haven't posted in a little over a week as I have had a bunch going on.  I took care of my wife after her surgery a week ago and stayed for several days after with her to take care of her.  I have been staying with her since my daughter broke my toilet in my apartment on Christmas Eve and we have gotten along great!  No dysregulations to speak of and have done a lot of validating.  I have also let her be when she gets upset with something and don't JADE at all.  She has painted her mom black as night along with her sister too now and I just let her deal with that.  We are starting to talk about some tough issues and getting through them.  It's been a great couple of weeks and looking forward to more. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, my wife dysregulated today.   .   I saw it coming and couldn't do anything about it.  Tried not to JADE, and know I did, but sometimes it can't be avoided.  She asked me to help pay the washer and dryer off, which I have had a problem with because all I have paid since we separated.  It had to be paid by tomorrow to not have any interest hit (one year interest free financing and she took them in the separation).  I asked her today to help me understand why she expects me to pay any of it when I have paid every car note since we separated and she hasn't offered to pay a penny.  She then threw up the fact that "she paid" for a family cruise a year and a half ago out of her bonus and I had no problem letting her.  I told her that every bit of my money I have made the last five years had gone into our household which means my money went into that vacation as well and that the family vacation she is bringing up is irrelevant to our current situation as we weren't separated.  She said, "of course so you don't have to be responsible."  I told her that she is not being responsible by not paying what she owes during our separation that she chose by bringing up the cruise and that was the only justification she could come up with.  She belittled the money I made and I told her that she had no problem with me bringing it into the house and yet unlike her ex husband who never worked, I actually have a job that I can support myself on.  She said, well if you could support yourself then why did you say we could save 1000 dollars a month by us living together again. I told her a couple of days ago that when our lease is up we should think live together again.  Today she threw it up to me and twisted my words around by saying "I could save 1000 a month.  I told her that wasn't what I said and she knows what I said and the reason is  because we love each other, we shouldn't be apart and we could put that towards our bills instead of two different dwellings which is a waste of money. She said how convenient for me as that would give me a financial advantage.   . She gave me a bogus figure and I told her the correct figure.  She said that she isn't going to pay any car notes until she recoups some of what she lost during our marriage ( Yet her ex husband owes her 40,000 in back child support).  She said that I'm all about me and that is why I have a new phone and new shoes.  I told her I'm sorry she feels that way.  I said fine, then they will repossess your car because I gave them your address.  And I won't pay the washer and dryer because she refuses to be responsible for what she owes and she said neither will she.  We drove up to the house (kids were not with us) and she said that she would get my stuff and for me to wait outside.  When she gave me my things she told me to "get off her property".  Honestly, I'm so sick of that crap.  She got a few of my things and kept my apartment key and gate fob and didn't realize it until I got home.  I'm getting my apartment rekeyed as we speak as I won't give her access to my apartment when she is concerned about money. 

     We had a great couple of weeks.  A couple of things I have noticed about myself and about the situation.  One is, she was fine until I stood my ground about the car notes and the washer and dryer.  In other words, she is throwing a temper tantrum to get her way.  I did raise my voice a couple of times, but it wasn't a full on shouting match or anything.  I did tell her I felt I was being used.  Don't care if that is JADE'ing or not, but it's the truth and have a right to speak it.  I did stay with her at her place several times and spent quite a bit of time over there.  At times, I wanted to be at my place rather than there and it wasn't her as much as how much she lets the kids run over her.  Our oldest son controls the house (he makes everyone miserable and my wife caters to him by not doing the hard thing), for instance, we wanted to watch some football and instead of telling I'm to get off his video games, she said lets watch it on the iPad in her room.  She knew if she did he would give her hell.  Irritating.  Oh well.  A step back, but not the end... .

[maxsterling]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that.  I've been through very similar arguments.  Eerily similar   It's always the same thing.  Things may be going well, and then one little trigger over money, and then it's about how I don't earn enough, am not ambitious enough, don't manage money well, paid too much for my house, etc.  And when I try to point out that, I am the only one working and that I spend much less than her - it just makes her voice raise and the defenses worse.

About all I can suggest is to find a way to leave these arguments sooner so that they don't escalate this bad.  But you are right, eventually these arguments happen, and you need to somehow be honest with yourself and say what needs to be said.  It sounds to me like she got upset because your initial comment was accusatory and defensive (even though it was warranted, though).  I'm not sure how to approach this different.

[MaroonLiquid]

It was in the car so I couldnt "leave it", and tried to change the subject to no avail.  She didn't like the fact that I stood up for myself and asked her why when I have paid 2400 in car notes for her and she hasn't offered a dime towards them (does not include mine that I'm paying for and both of our names are on them) that she expects me to pay 600 towards the washer and dryer... .That's not defensive, it's a fair question.  If she was as concerned about the washer and dryer the last six months as she was painting me black and going on vacations during that same time, she could have paid them off.  It wasn't that important to her.  She didn't want to.

[maxsterling]

Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself.  I applaud you for doing that  .  And your question is definitely fair!  I'm only pointing out how she views your response to her asking you for money.  She sees you responding with a question to her request as argumentative or defensive, no matter how fair that question is.  Unfortunately, you were put in a no-win situation here.  Had you simply said "no", she would have demanded an explanation.  But if you simply could have just said "no, I am not going to do that." and left it at that, it would have spared you the rest of her vitriol.  Unfortunately, you were trapped in the car   Been there, don't that.  I hate when she brings up stuff in the car!

Here is an similar thing that happened to me the other day:  She overslept (turned off her alarm and went back to sleep).  I slept later than normal, quickly got up, made coffee, showered, and got ready for work.  Before I left, I woke her up enough to say goodbye.  She was furious for me not waking her earlier, blaming me for her missing an appointment. We've had this discussion before, where I tell her that it is not my responsibility to ensure she gets up on time for her own appointments, and I am not going to physically drag her out of bed.  I asked her what she wanted me to do.  She suggested that I turn on a light or open the blinds so that way she is not in the dark.  I reminded her that the last time I opened the blinds, she yelled at me for waking her up (100% true - was just a few days prior to this incident).  And then she exploded. 

So what was I supposed to do?  I felt that I needed to explain to her why I would not open the blinds and try to wake her up.  Didn't matter.  She rejected the explanation as me pushing the responsibility back on her.  Her real issue was that she feels it is my responsibility to take care of her and make her feel special.  And me getting up on my own and getting ready for work was abandoning her and putting my needs in front of hers.  I suspect that is what you are really dealing with here.   She's feeling abandoned by you.  And once the feeling of abandonment has taken over - anything else you do at that point is just a waste of energy.  My wife may calm after a few hours, but it takes a few days for the feeling to completely go away.  But it rears right back up the second another trigger comes her way.

[MaroonLiquid]

     I agree that she feels abandoned by that, but I can't do much about it.  I have done everything I can to make her feel the opposite the last two weeks.  I was the only one there for her during her surgery and bought groceries and food and dinners for us and the kids because she was low on funds.

     I also asked her the other day why she continued to have me blocked on Facebook as that is a misrepresentation of herself to people when she tells me she wants to work on the marriage and get counseling but doest show married in her info.  After about 15 minutes of projecting onto my family about them "saying things to her" (total lie, more like she doesn't want to face then) and telling her it made me feel bad and it seemed that what other people thought was more important than what I thought, she finally cracked and said, "She doesn't want to explain to people why she has told them one thing and now would have to tell them the opposite.  It's none of their business."  I just left it at that and let it soak... .if anyone should feel abandoned it should be me... .

[formflier]

 

Quick comment on your tactics... .

it sounds like you guys "debated... " issues some.

Do you think it would have been better to just decline the offer to help... .and move along.?

[MaroonLiquid]

I don't think it would have mattered.  I do think it was more of a debate, but we haven't spoken since this morning.  I told her I would try and help and tried and couldn't by tomorrow's date.  She chose to get mad and tell me to leave.  The issue is she is more concerned about a debt that can't be repossessed than she is about things that can.  She is majoring on the minor.  I'm not going to feel guilty because she chose not to pay it when she chose to do other things.  I'm just not.

[Grey Kitty]

All I can say is hang in there and do as little JADEing as you can.

Regarding the request for help paying off the washer/dryer... .looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I remember a quote I saw around here recently:

"I finally realized that 'No' is a complete sentence in the Engilsh language."

If you aren't paying, the why is less important than the no. And saying why without JADEing is pretty much impossible.

[formflier]

 The issue is she is more concerned about a debt that can't be repossessed than she is about things that can.  

I think you have "misdiagnosed" the main issue.

Which sort of highlights the point of not trying to figure out what they are thinking... .and only respond to the behavior.  Because I certainly don't know what she is thinking... .but I'll offer my opinion... .it's as good as... .well... .we'll let the crowd decide.

I think the real issue is that she wants to control you... .or when she has a concern... .that you are "controllable" to fix the concern.  She believes this should happen and be "one sided".  She gets what she wants... .and to heck with what you want... .or a "standard of behavior" in relationships.

There is another issue of being able to accurately figure out what should and shouldn't be concerning.

Now... .do I think she is thinking those exact thoughts... .I doubt it... .but I think she sees your "flaws"... .and ignores hers.

[MaroonLiquid]

 The issue is she is more concerned about a debt that can't be repossessed than she is about things that can.  

I think you have "misdiagnosed" the main issue.

Which sort of highlights the point of not trying to figure out what they are thinking... .and only respond to the behavior.  Because I certainly don't know what she is thinking... .but I'll offer my opinion... .it's as good as... .well... .we'll let the crowd decide.

I think the real issue is that she wants to control you... .or when she has a concern... .that you are "controllable" to fix the concern.  She believes this should happen and be "one sided".  She gets what she wants... .and to heck with what you want... .or a "standard of behavior" in relationships.

There is another issue of being able to accurately figure out what should and shouldn't be concerning.

Now... .do I think she is thinking those exact thoughts... .I doubt it... .but I think she sees your "flaws"... .and ignores hers.

I totally agree with your post FF!  That's why this time I'm not concerned.  I'm more concerned with sticking to the fact that I won't fix it and bow to her controlling behavior. Each time this happens I understand a bit better what she is trying to do.  I'm not concerned this time trying to "understand" why she is doing things.  Im much better this time.  I'm more concerned with sticking to my guns.  Now I just need to shore up my "flaws" and move forward.  What do you suggest? 

[formflier]

  What do you suggest? 

I like how you asked for her help in "understanding"... .but then you listed off some facts and assumptions.

I suspect those facts and assumptions were "invalidating" to her... .or something along those lines.

that "invites" her to toss out her facts and assumptions... .

If you could have focused more on validation of the underlying emotion of the request... .than debating the actual request... .might have come out a bit better.

I really think there was some invalidation here.

Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

  What do you suggest? 

I like how you asked for her help in "understanding"... .but then you listed off some facts and assumptions.

I suspect those facts and assumptions were "invalidating" to her... .or something along those lines.

that "invites" her to toss out her facts and assumptions... .

If you could have focused more on validation of the underlying emotion of the request... .than debating the actual request... .might have come out a bit better.

I really think there was some invalidation here.

Thoughts?

I agree that there was some invalidation there, but it was also the truth.  The truth sometimes is invalidating.  In that moment, I'll be honest, I didn't care about being invalidating.  I wanted to tell the truth about how I felt about the situation.  I felt I just needed to lay it on the line. 

[formflier]

I agree that there was some invalidation there, but it was also the truth.  The truth sometimes is invalidating.  In that moment, I'll be honest, I didn't care about being invalidating.  I wanted to tell the truth about how I felt about the situation.  I felt I just needed to lay it on the line. 

You made an informed choice.  It is powerful to be able to make those choices.

You also get to live with the consequences of those choices.

Quick advice:  I would stay away from invalidating until the r/s is much more stable.  If your goal is to be a "stayer" and reunite your family... .invalidation at this point is really counterproductive.

If you only want to be a stayer... .or reunite your family... .AS LONG AS you are able to speak the truth as you see it... .then that is your choice to make... .and your actions match that choice.

My hope is that you gain clarity about your goals... .then make sure your actions match your goals.

Hang in there... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I agree that there was some invalidation there, but it was also the truth.  The truth sometimes is invalidating.  In that moment, I'll be honest, I didn't care about being invalidating.  I wanted to tell the truth about how I felt about the situation.  I felt I just needed to lay it on the line. 

You made an informed choice.  It is powerful to be able to make those choices.

You also get to live with the consequences of those choices.

Quick advice:  I would stay away from invalidating until the r/s is much more stable.  If your goal is to be a "stayer" and reunite your family... .invalidation at this point is really counterproductive.

If you only want to be a stayer... .or reunite your family... .AS LONG AS you are able to speak the truth as you see it... .then that is your choice to make... .and your actions match that choice.

My hope is that you gain clarity about your goals... .then make sure your actions match your goals.

Hang in there... .

I have gained clarity about my goals and they never changed.  My goal is for my marriage to work. I feel in every area that I can I have made those changes and my actions reflect that, even backing off of some of original "lines" to show that.  That was the first invalidation in weeks.  In fact, I had spent those few weeks validating, validating, validating, taking care of her needs (surgery and otherwise), going shopping for Christmas with her and taking care of the needs around the house and the kids.  I'm trying to keep myself from being used.  I love her dearly and she knows that. 

[formflier]

That was the first invalidation in weeks. 

That's good... .it seems like you are becoming more and more aware of what is validating and what is not.

Very important to understand that invalidation is a much more powerful tool that validation. 

1 invalidation is "worth" many many validations.

That is why we try to help people understand that the first step is to "stop the bleeding"... .to stop invalidating. 


We can never "know" exactly how many "validations" were wiped out by any one "invalidation"... .that's not the point I'm trying to make.  The point I'm trying to make is that one "invalidation will "wipe out"... .or "set you back"... .the ground you gained in several "validations."

It sounds like you made a choice to do that... .and again... .it's powerful to be able to make those choices.  It's liberating.  I sometimes make similar choices... .and do so with the full knowledge that I will have a mess to clean up... .and that will take much more effort than if I had avoided the invalidation in the first place. 

What is the plan to "clean things up"... ? .and get back to the work of reconciliation.

[formflier]

I love her dearly and she knows that. 

Also just wanted to make sure you and everyone reading this thread understands that it's not about what she "knows"... it's about what she feels... .at any one moment.

Our goal is to do what we can to "level out" the swings between when she feels like you love her... .and when she feels like she doesn't.

Maroon,

What is your strategy for this?

[MaroonLiquid]

     My strategy is to continue to validate what I can and get back to not invalidating.  One website I read uses the Love Bank method.  it is kind of the same theory in that you have to work at "filling it", but it's real easy to make withdraws and harder to fill it once that is done.  I need to read up pn both again.  It does work.  One situation last week where I validated and skirted a dysregulation was when my daughter asked me to take her somewhere and I agreed.  I was late picking her and her friend up (overslept) from our daughter's friend's house.  When I got to my wife's house to pick her up, my wife said, "You don't have to be involved with this if you don't want to.  I can take them and you can go home if you would rather do that."  My response was, "It is frustrating that I was late this morning.  I didn't put enough emphasis on being on time and it was my fault for hitting snooze twice and that is my fault and I'm sorry.  I agreed to take our daughter because I want to spend time with her, do what I agreed to do and want to spend time with you."  She got over it pretty quick and we had a great day.  That was Thursday and she dysregulated on Friday. 

     Thinking about this more, I think I see where another issue may be.  For Christmas, I bought her two gifts, one extravagant (400 dollars) and one typical.  For clarification, I consider a "typical gift" one that is 50 to a 100 dollars and not sentimental.  Clarifying more, I consider "typical" to be clothes, shoes etc, and extravagant to be more thought out and sentimental (jewelry, mementos, heirlooms, things of that nature that require thought and are more than 100).  She bought me a typical gift for Christmas that I loved.  I told her how much I appreciated it and validated that.  She loved the "typical" gift I got her but when it came to accepting my "extravagant gift", she said she couldn't and asked that I take it back because of where we are in our relationship (but I now see that as an excuse).  I think she wanted me to take it back to give her the money for the washer and dryer.  I did take it back, and maybe I shouldn't have, I don't know.  One thing she brought up in our debate is that I didn't offer to give her the money (to put towards the washer and dryer) when I returned it.  I hadn't received it yet due to waiting for it to be refunded (debit card refund takes several days) and told her so.  I can see where that made her feel bad (returned the gift and also didn't offer it... .two different issues there), but I saw it as she doesn't even wear her wedding ring right now so why would she wear that.  I'm not trying to explain this away or try and figure out what she is thinking as I know that is impossible, but trying to see what my actions caused... .Does that make sense?

    Bottom line, she asked me for help to pay off the washer and dryer and I said I would try, AND DID... .It didn't work out like she wanted it to and in the timeframe she expected.  That's the bottom line problem in my eyes.  She again, wanted (expected maybe?) for me to "fix" it.  Because I didn't, she had to deal with the consequence.  The irony is it was her consequence to deal with due to her choices.  All the time on here it's said, don't shield them from their choices.  I understand that on some level I did try and shield her from it by trying to help, and JADE by justifying my inability to help by saying, "I don't feel it's right for you to expect me to pay this when you won't pay that... .I get that.  The biggest hurdle I feel is she throws temper tantrums (silent treatment, "kicking me to the curb" for short time, etc) when she doesn't get her way (i.e. not doing what she wants or expects).  Now, things are much better than they used to be (less volatile) obviously, but my biggest hurdle is getting us in counseling when she says that is what she wants.  Before the silent treatment a few days ago, she asked if I would make the appointment with that lady that I saw a while back which she didn't show up to nor does she know I went.  

[formflier]

      Bottom line, she asked me for help to pay off the washer and dryer and I said I would try, AND DID... .It didn't work out like she wanted it to and in the timeframe she expected. 

This sets up the ability for her to ask "why" questions... .why didn't it work out... .which sets you up for JADE.

This "line of attack" is pretty standard fare for her... .asking you to pay things.

I think you need to take a couple steps back... .take a deep breath... .and think up a general answer... .to the general issue of will or won't you pay things.  Then stick with it. 

After I read this answer... .I believe there may be some intermittent reinforcement going on here... .along with some invalidation.

By "debating" the gift and the washer... .IMO... .it was "linking" the two.  pwBPD love to "link" things that are in no way related. 

Debating it acknowledged the link... .IMO.

It's been done... .I think going back to try and repair this interaction or dysregulation would open it up again... .and it would bleed more.  I only mention this to tweak things for next time.

Gifts: It's your money... .its your choice to give her a gift or not.  If she doesn't want it... .that's her choice.  That story is over.

Washer (or anything).  She made the deal... .it's her issue to work out.  End of story.

Your money:  You get to choose how you spend your money.  No explanations or apologies needed.  End of story.

Her money:  She gets to choose how she spends it.  No explanation or apologies needed.  End of story.

If you both mutually agree to co-mingle some funds.  Then those funds can get used for whatever you both can mutually agree on.  End of story.

Don't link stories... .or even acknowledge that they might be linked.

What I think is better strategy is to ask her to help you understand what she is trying to communicate better.  Listen for the ideas... .also listen for emotions and things to validate.  Take not of things (landmines) that you don't want to invalidate... .stay far away from them.

Waverider said it really well a while back.  She is giving you "headlines"... .newsflashes if you will.  And apparently wants you to act on those headlines.  What you need to help her understand is that you want to understand the full story... .you want to read the entire article.

Hope this helps... .I think this new year is going to be much better for you than the last year.

[MaroonLiquid]

      Bottom line, she asked me for help to pay off the washer and dryer and I said I would try, AND DID... .It didn't work out like she wanted it to and in the timeframe she expected.  

This sets up the ability for her to ask "why" questions... .why didn't it work out... .which sets you up for JADE.

This "line of attack" is pretty standard fare for her... .asking you to pay things.

I think you need to take a couple steps back... .take a deep breath... .and think up a general answer... .to the general issue of will or won't you pay things.  Then stick with it.  

After I read this answer... .I believe there may be some intermittent reinforcement going on here... .along with some invalidation.

By "debating" the gift and the washer... .IMO... .it was "linking" the two.  pwBPD love to "link" things that are in no way related.  

Debating it acknowledged the link... .IMO.

It's been done... .I think going back to try and repair this interaction or dysregulation would open it up again... .and it would bleed more.  I only mention this to tweak things for next time.

Gifts: It's your money... .its your choice to give her a gift or not.  If she doesn't want it... .that's her choice.  That story is over.

Washer (or anything).  She made the deal... .it's her issue to work out.  End of story.

Your money:  You get to choose how you spend your money.  No explanations or apologies needed.  End of story.

Her money:  She gets to choose how she spends it.  No explanation or apologies needed.  End of story.

If you both mutually agree to co-mingle some funds.  Then those funds can get used for whatever you both can mutually agree on.  End of story.

Don't link stories... .or even acknowledge that they might be linked.

What I think is better strategy is to ask her to help you understand what she is trying to communicate better.  Listen for the ideas... .also listen for emotions and things to validate.  Take not of things (landmines) that you don't want to invalidate... .stay far away from them.

Waverider said it really well a while back.  She is giving you "headlines"... .newsflashes if you will.  And apparently wants you to act on those headlines.  What you need to help her understand is that you want to understand the full story... .you want to read the entire article.

Hope this helps... .I think this new year is going to be much better for you than the last year.

     I agree that I have intermittently reinforced her behavior.  I need to shore that up so to speak.  I am having a hard time separating/figuring out what is "right" and what I should do as a husband... .Know what I mean?  

    I have done the very best I can to get her to think through things and helping her through that and validating her underlying emotions.  I have done very well in helping her to understand that I want to know the "full story" and she has commented as such.  One thing she told me the other day is she likes "the new me".  Been trying to be more proactive in doing the "little things" to halp our relationship.  Why do you think this year will be better than last?

[Grey Kitty]

The biggest hurdle I feel is she throws temper tantrums (silent treatment, "kicking me to the curb" for short time, etc) when she doesn't get her way (i.e. not doing what she wants or expects).

You cannot take that behavior away from her.

Time to do some track practice and start winning races where you have a bunch of hurdles to jump over.

If she sees you flying over them one after the other, she will eventually notice that putting them in front of you is wasted energy on her part 

Not sure you flew over the last one, but you didn't catch your leg and fall flat on your face, at least!

[formflier]

If she sees you flying over them one after the other, she will eventually notice that putting them in front of you is wasted energy on her part 

Not sure you flew over the last one, but you didn't catch your leg and fall flat on your face, at least!

Nice analogy... .I like it!

[formflier]

     I agree that I have intermittently reinforced her behavior.  I need to shore that up so to speak.

I disagree... .you need to stop that!

invalidation and intermittent reinforcement are "multipliers"... .if you don't get those under control... or best... .gone... .they will continue to "exponentially" set you back.

 I am having a hard time separating/figuring out what is "right" and what I should do as a husband... .Know what I mean?

 

I think you should start a new thread... .or maybe a separate thread for each "thing" that you are trying to figure out what is right... .what your values are.    These values need to be clarified... .solidified... .that will help avoid intermittent reinforcement.

    I have done the very best I can to get her to think through things

Is that in the lessons?  Is her "thinking" your "battleground" (watch out... .here comes my military side)... .

I submit to you that it is not.

What do you think her "battleground" or "center of gravity" is.  The google definition of center of gravity is adequate for our purposes.

 I have done very well in helping her to understand that I want to know the "full story" and she has commented as such.

This is good... .keep up good work.  Look for ways to boost efforts so she notices more.

 One thing she told me the other day is she likes "the new me".  Been trying to be more proactive in doing the "little things" to halp our relationship.  Why do you think this year will be better than last?

Maroon,

I think this year will be better for you because you have gained much in knowledge about "what you are dealing with".   You are in the midst of figuring out healthy choices that you can make for the r/s.  By and large... .you seem fine with making healthy choices and letting the chips fall as they may.

Generally... .once people start understanding how to deal with pwBPD traits... .or the start understanding... .they can take new concepts onboard rather quickly.  I suspect you will learn way more this year than you did last year.

[MaroonLiquid]

     I agree that I have intermittently reinforced her behavior.  I need to shore that up so to speak.

I disagree... .you need to stop that!

invalidation and intermittent reinforcement are "multipliers"... .if you don't get those under control... or best... .gone... .they will continue to "exponentially" set you back.

 I am having a hard time separating/figuring out what is "right" and what I should do as a husband... .Know what I mean?

 

I think you should start a new thread... .or maybe a separate thread for each "thing" that you are trying to figure out what is right... .what your values are.    These values need to be clarified... .solidified... .that will help avoid intermittent reinforcement.

    I have done the very best I can to get her to think through things

Is that in the lessons?  Is her "thinking" your "battleground" (watch out... .here comes my military side)... .

I submit to you that it is not.

What do you think her "battleground" or "center of gravity" is.  The google definition of center of gravity is adequate for our purposes.

 I have done very well in helping her to understand that I want to know the "full story" and she has commented as such.

This is good... .keep up good work.  Look for ways to boost efforts so she notices more.

One thing she told me the other day is she likes "the new me".  Been trying to be more proactive in doing the "little things" to halp our relationship.  Why do you think this year will be better than last?

Maroon,

I think this year will be better for you because you have gained much in knowledge about "what you are dealing with".   You are in the midst of figuring out healthy choices that you can make for the r/s.  By and large... .you seem fine with making healthy choices and letting the chips fall as they may.

Generally... .once people start understanding how to deal with pwBPD traits... .or the start understanding... .they can take new concepts onboard rather quickly.  I suspect you will learn way more this year than you did last year.

When I said, "shore that up", I meant stop it.  Maybe wasn't the right choice of words.  The only reason I can figure out why I "give in" it is to "try and make things better and to work through it where that issue isn't between us anymore" like she wants (black and white issues as she calls them), even to my own detriment.  I see I am making it worse at times and she continues to "pull the lever on the slot machine".  As far as invalidation, yeah, I did it by telling the truth and lived with the consequences.  I have stopped 99% of it, but that day, I couldn't help myself with that one.  It actually felt good to say the truth, which I believe is one of the main reasons the silent treatment this time has little to no affect on me at all.  

The biggest hurdle I feel is she throws temper tantrums (silent treatment, "kicking me to the curb" for short time, etc) when she doesn't get her way (i.e. not doing what she wants or expects).

You cannot take that behavior away from her.

Time to do some track practice and start winning races where you have a bunch of hurdles to jump over.

If she sees you flying over them one after the other, she will eventually notice that putting them in front of you is wasted energy on her part 

Not sure you flew over the last one, but you didn't catch your leg and fall flat on your face, at least!

That is a good analogy.  I feel I am doing a lot better with these hurdles than before.  I'm glad I didn't fall flat on my face even though she is trying the silent treatment again.   

[formflier]

 I have stopped 99% of it, but that day, I couldn't help myself with that one. 

My new years resolution for you... .or "goal"... .is that next year I'm reading a post from you that says... .

"I made a choice today to say what I believed.  That choice was empowering to me... .  She dysregulated and I am in the process of using tools to clean up the mess."

What differences do you notice in what you have written... .and what my goal is for you to write next year?

[MaroonLiquid]

 I have stopped 99% of it, but that day, I couldn't help myself with that one.  

My new years resolution for you... .or "goal"... .is that next year I'm reading a post from you that says... .

"I made a choice today to say what I believed.  That choice was empowering to me... . She dysregulated and I am in the process of using tools to clean up the mess."

What differences do you notice in what you have written... .and what my goal is for you to write next year?

I need to be more confident in what I believe and stand up for it/myself regardless of the outcome.  I am too afraid of the pissing her off/consequences or saying the wrong thing rather than standing up for what I feel is right.  Is that close?  I feel like at first you said I was wrong for standing for what I believe in, but what you're saying is stand up for it, but don't JADE in the process... .Regardless, I have to be ready to clean it up... .

[formflier]

 I feel like at first you said I was wrong for standing for what I believe in, but what you're saying is stand up for it, but don't JADE in the process... .Regardless, I have to be ready to clean it up... .

Not really wrong or right... .

You invalidated her... .some intermittent reinforcement... .and she dysregulated.  No shock there... .those things go hand in hand... .

It's not wrong or right... .you made a choice to do those things... .

If your goal was to stand up for the truth... .I think you accomplished your goal.

If you goal is to lower "emotional reactivity"... .increase times when she can "hear" what you are really saying because her emotions are in check... .then I think you missed the mark by a pretty wide margin.

Those goals and desires are exclusive of one another... .I'm not aware of how to do them both.

I can think of ways to "prepare" her to have a better chance of hearing the truth... .but whether or not she "hears"... ."understands"... .the truth you are speaking... that's hard to predict.

Do you think she understands the "truth" that you told her?

[MaroonLiquid]

 I feel like at first you said I was wrong for standing for what I believe in, but what you're saying is stand up for it, but don't JADE in the process... .Regardless, I have to be ready to clean it up... .

Not really wrong or right... .

You invalidated her... .some intermittent reinforcement... .and she dysregulated.  No shock there... .those things go hand in hand... .

It's not wrong or right... .you made a choice to do those things... .

If your goal was to stand up for the truth... .I think you accomplished your goal.

If you goal is to lower "emotional reactivity"... .increase times when she can "hear" what you are really saying because her emotions are in check... .then I think you missed the mark by a pretty wide margin.

Those goals and desires are exclusive of one another... .I'm not aware of how to do them both.

I can think of ways to "prepare" her to have a better chance of hearing the truth... .but whether or not she "hears"... ."understands"... .the truth you are speaking... that's hard to predict.

Do you think she understands the "truth" that you told her?

That's a great question.  Yes and no?   

[MaroonLiquid]

One thing I have noticed about myself this past 4 days of "silence" is it isn't bothering me hardly at all anymore and starting to see her patterns.  I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you?  

[formflier]

  I guess this is when they stop some of their behaviors when they see it doesn't bother you? 

Close... .this is when then will most likely "alter" their patterns of behavior.

You have changed... .likelihood she will not change is very very low.

We can't "force" a specific change... .such as stopping... .

If you are exhibiting healthy behaviors... .that increases likelihood that their change will trend towards healthy... .