Intervention Orders / Restraining Orders ADVICE

[Aussie JJ]

Hi all,

I have an upcomming hearing for an intervention order (In australia) that my ex has put out against me.  I need some honest views/opinions on how to proceed with this.  I have two seperate peices of advice that are both valid IMO.  My solicitor says it's either all in 100 % fight it tooth and nail or agree to an intervention order without an admision of guilt saying I didnt do these things and commit to not do them in the future.  (no admission of guilt)

The view on these sites is basically, you didnt do it, dont accept it under any circumstances.  I side with this view. 

My solicitor (I followed splitting and out of 7 L's I saw he was the most reasonable, understands BPD very well and the psychology aspect very well) has said that in Australia the whole agreeing to it without guilt isnt viewed negativly in Childrens court.  Judges here see it all the time and ignore it when it has been contested and it is still granted it is seen in a different light, so beware. 

The risk of fighting it and being found guilty or fighting it and the magistrate finding that my ex has 'genuine fear' and it being granted will be looked down on in a big way in a Childrens court or Family Court setting. 

The things I am accused of:

Accusing her of having mental health issues (Bi Polar) and needing help.  I was quite clear that she had BPD when I spoke to her, not once did I say she needed help, I said support. 

Stalking her, following her in my car and harrasing her. 

Verbally being abusive towards her, calling her names infront of our son.  The most I have said was that a decision was emotionally immature.  She has placed all of her behaviour on me here again.   

Having a psychiatrist harras her and tell her she needs help.  I have a Psychologist who has spoken to her once back in Febuary and gave me a letter I passed onto her, again in Febuary.  Other than that no contact, he told her he didnt want or need to talk to her at all, she wasnt his client so he wouldnt talk to her.  I know she used to have a Psychiatrist and a few different psychologists... .  I dont know what the go is now. 

Basically, I haven't done any of this, I havent said a bad word to her, I have JADED conversations before, now I don't engage in the BS.  I am not afraid of fighting the charges I am afraid of not being allowed to fight the charges fully and loosing. 

I have now been accused of being agressive and disrespectful at handovers and basically more silent treatment.  I am just over it.  Her pattern of behaviour of blockign access and everything else is so long its not funny.  One thing that has been stopping me or holding me back has been my beleif that she would start to act normally and grant me some access to my son and be reasonable with me.  She has just gotten worse and worse. 

I have about 3 weeks before I pull the trigger on this 100 % to commit either way.  My L says his view is agree to the intervention order with no admission of guilt and spend the money on the Family Court stuff.  Dig it all out there.  He sat me down and had a very frank discussion with me about costs, basically I expect to be broke at the end of this.  I accept that, I just need to know your opinions and experiences with this. 

My view here is the money shouldnt play a part in this decision.  I know thats not realistic however I should do whatever is correct and then I'll find a way to make it work financially.  So money shouldnt lay into the decision. 

As I said I have 2-3 weeks before I commit 100% to fighting this or commiting to family court and forgettign this intervention order stuff. 

I basically want to ask those that have been there and done it so to speak.  Experiences.  I cant turn back once i make this decision.  If you have been here before, in the situation I am explaining.  What was your decision and your reasoning, what was the outcome. 

My psychologist says either way its 100 % on this.  Basically if I fight it and I win I follow through with setting a boundary and goign for slander against her in return and forcing the police to file charges for makign false statements to police against her.  (Add another 10-20k in legal fees).  My emotional and wise mind says, go through, it is a process, you havent done this and emotion doesnt count in court.  Facts count. 

My wise mind also has this little voice sayign, you selected the L for a reason, he says dont fight this, pick your battles. 

I would appreciate all views here. 

Thanks,


AJJ. 

[livednlearned]

My L says his view is agree to the intervention order with no admission of guilt and spend the money on the Family Court stuff. 

To clarify, you can agree to the order without admitting guilt? Does it go on your record? Will it effect future employment? If she breaches the intervention, or sets you up in some way, what is the consequence? Does the "no guilt" admission matter going forward in Family Court? If there is an intervention order, can she still contact you, or does the NC apply to both parties? These are things I would want my L to explain clearly. Take a notebook so you can write down what he says just to be sure. I had a habit of forgetting because the topics were always so emotionally charged.

I just Googled intervention orders in Australia and there were articles about how the numbers have ballooned in recent years. Seems that the definition of harassment has expanded, the forms are free and easy to fill out, and judges are loathe to deny an intervention order in case something does happen.

I think that's all stuff to take into consideration, not just what other members here have experienced. My L also talked a lot about the judge -- does your L know who you will get? Often judges have biases and patterns. Some judges will grant most of the intervention orders, some will be more... .judicious.

Also, is there a possibility that you can get your ex to discuss this in mediation? You would need some good leverage to get her to agree to this. Like having her behavior on tape, or evidence that she is behaving in fear, and yet doing things that suggest otherwise.

My ex had a psychotic break while my son was in the house during regular visitation, and sent 100+ messages all night long in a 12-hour time span. I opted to not file a protection order for two reasons. One, I felt it would escalate N/BPDx's behavior (it happens). And two, the opposing L got N/BPDx to agree on paper that he would not drive by my house, call me, text, email, etc. and there would be no visitation until an emergency ex parte hearing. He agreed to all that. It wasn't a legally binding document in the same way, but ex knew that he was on thin ice and agreed. Technically, it meant that he was not breaking an "order" if he contacted me, so I could not call law enforcement in the same way. But I could always call law enforcement if I was worried, so it was a wash.

To do this, your L has to be a good at back room deals, and have good negotiation skills.

This isn't answering your question exactly, but I'm just wondering if there is a middle way so you can give her what she wants without going to court and jeopardizing the outcome.

[ForeverDad]

I had to face that back in the early days of my divorce.  It was her tactic to make me look bad and block my parenting  I had filed for divorce and custody so she counter-filed claiming harassment and even tried to include our son in it too.  My lawyer said there was little I could do to stop an order if the judge wanted to play it safe, she could claim "feeling fearful" and could get an order for up to 5 years.

I would suggest that if a deal is worked out then it must be carefully phrased as applying to BOTH of you.  In other words, you stay away from her and she stays away from you.  From a practical standpoint it is virtually the same but (1) it does not make you out as The Problem and (2) she gets in trouble if she violates it.  An order that limits and restricts you does not limit and restrict her.

As it turned out my lawyer convinced me that with certain conditions met it could be okay.  The conditions were (1) son was excluded from the common pleas or civil order and all parenting would be handled separately by domestic court, (2) no 'admission of guilt' was made by me, (3) no 'finding of guilt' was made by the court, (4) it would end in several months and could not be renewed or extended.

I didn't like it but my lawyer said what was known was better than what the judge might do.  However, I did this:  I set down my conditions.  I was prepared to disprove her claims.  I made sure the settlement met the four terms above, that it didn't indicate I was a Bad Guy, that it was as neutral as possible.

She still tried to complain to the deputies about me, still called 911 sometimes, but we managed to get through it.  (My lawyer didn't say why they came to choose the number of months they did but I noticed it ended a week before Christmas.)

My suggestion to you is to decide what you minimum boundaries or conditions are and stand by them, as I did above.  You will feel better about yourself afterward.

An additional example is that my ex finally agreed to settle on Trial Morning after two years stretching out the divorce since she had the upper hand with temp custody.  I was prepared for Trial.  (Afterward I found out ex had been told by her lawyer that she likely wouldn't win at trial, so she caved that day.)  So everyone expected a settlement and I felt very pressured to settle too.  I set my boundary... .IF we settled for Shared Parenting and equal time THEN I would be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  Oh did she beg to keep RP.  I simply stated my boundary, ready to take the risks of a trial, "We either agree I will be Residential Parent or we go in now and start the Trial."  I didn't feel guilted, worried or whatever by stating my boundary.  (But I did feel guilted by everyone assuming I should make a deal.)  Guess what?  She folded.  I became RP.  School said they would allow son to stay until kindergarten ended 3 months later.  But about 6 weeks later she had caused enough scenes at school that they told me I had ONE DAY to register him on my own school.  Yes, he was booted from kindergarten.  That would never have happened if I wasn't RP.  If she had stayed RP the school would have had to keep suffering silently with her behaviors.  But when I became RP I gifted them the power to say, 'go away and be some other school's problem'.  I later used it in my return to court seeking custody.

[SlyQQ]

Been through both ( In Australia ) originally about 10 years ago after a home invasion by my ex got an agreement to an intervention order ( it was called an undertaking i think) one of the stated benifits ( or negatives in your case was there was an unlimited time fram on this ) the other main negative is that any shown breach will automatically result in an AVO I belive depending on your ex she may well be able to abuse this by putting you in akward situations especially when kids are involved you should think carefully on writing in exclusions if one of the children is sick etc an can make custody an swap overs of the kids difficult to. with respect to an AVO i had to defend myself against this my first appearance when i got to court i got a barrister an my ex rang saying she had to go to hospital ( apparently you get one defferal pretty much no questions asked ) an couldnt make it two things became apparent it is not like a regular court hearing an pretty much anything goes it is based on balance of probability i.e. more or less than 50% chance one way or the other ( but it really looks bad if the judge waives it then something bad happens to the applicant ) My ex was using it to get custody so no undertaking / intervention was offered In my case i was lucky my exs intention was to hit me with the avo on the day we broke up ( she was texting me xs an saying everything was fine while emptying out the house while i took the kids on holiday she had found a new house with her new partner who she intended to marry an have a kid with an dissappear with the kids when i had to leave the kids for some xmas family commitments before returning home) it did not luckily quite work out like that but she still filed the AVO hours after i found out she had/ intended to leave and the plan luckily she did not put her new adress ( for fear i would see it  on it so it couldnt be served an I got a breathing space before i got dragged into court (i was still in shock an things could have gone very badly ) luckily things dragged out over christmas and it became increasingly apparent my ex was completely crazy the police representing her withdrew at the second hearing and she did not appear to contest the third an final hearing. in my opinion the barrister was worthless ( if you are decently competent and articulate dumped him after first hearing but a solicitor to correctly handle paperwork was invaluable ( filing an preparing affitdavids)

In my case the course of time revealed my ex to be demonstrably unbalanced so it was easy I hope this help if you have any questions please ask badly)  

[SlyQQ]

P.S. i was also informed you never get costs in these case ( an avo lodged against you ) the exception the solicitor quoted to me was when the order had been brought due to the respondents snoring !

[walksoftly]

In Cnada its called a restraining order and I fought it. Luckily I had a third party witness statement that stated how she was punching me in the neck face and chest. I also had a good friend who was a lawyer who stated that she called her and stated she would choke her if she represented me. At the end of the day the restraining order was dropped and we both received a no contact clause.

Unfortunately you will have to file evidence that attests to her violent actions and/or anything else that will chip away at her character. Its a mud fest that I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.

I was shocked that she filed this restraining order but once I got over the initial shock I fought back with everything I had... in the end it worked and the court just saw her as a violent idiot

[Aussie JJ]

The problem I have that is of concern, both my L and the barrister I have know the judge in question and she isnt predictable... .  Barrister was very specific about this, she said I had to be very careful of her and if goign to the next hearing without her (she said I could save money and ask for a deferance or something) to call hewr before hand and get a few one liners sendt through and stick to them. 

I paid her for the day and she was only their for 2 hours.  She said I could see her for 20-30 minutes before the next date in court to make sure I said the correct things.  I trust her in that regard and the L I have I spent a while making sure he was the correct one to pick.  So I trust their opinions. 

Forever Dad, what your writting really adds up to me and resonates with what my L said. 

This is what concerns me.  Judge isnt predictable. 


AJJ. 

[SlyQQ]

Maybe you should try for a couple of deferals if you can an see if your ex does something silly before making a final decision

[Aussie JJ]

Going the deferals route at present.  She has already made a few accusations that she has no ability to back up with factual proof (they are untrue so good luck) and hoping to have her not rock up at the next hearing. 

TY SlyQQ.  Sounds like you have been through this aspect before and know it in depth.  Australian system has no ability or accountability for countering false claims weven when they get proven fgalse.  The beleive being, if you hold people accountable they wont be able to come forward if its a shady area as they will think they are being victimised. 


AJJ. 

[SlyQQ]

All to true unfiortunately somr people are exploiting the system with no respect for those it is suppose to protect you are in a dangerous place if your ex does not stuff up its weighted heavily to women and the accuser good luck

[livednlearned]

My gut says you should fight it, AJ. But you have to bring your A game.

If it's granted, your ex will be motivated to put you in situations where worse things will be levvied against you, like SlyQQ pointed out. There's another member on Family Law who is dealing with this right now (can't recall his name). Also, she may do this again. In terms of BPD psychology, I would want to show her that she cannot get away with lying, starting now.

You'll go into Family Court with a mark against your name (unless you can do what FD suggested and have it be a mutual restraining order). Whether it's the UK or Canada or Australia or the US, most of these courts function in much the same way. Judges can and will rule based on persuasive reasoning -- it's not an evidence-based rational reasoning type of court.

Is it common to do depositions in preparation for Interventions where you live? Might be worth asking your L. N/BPDx  is a former trial lawyer and we were both deposed. You would think N/BPDx, a man who says he has done hundreds (he said thousands) of depositions, would know how to conduct himself in a deposition, but the whole feelings = facts things that goes with BPD makes it hard to get through a deposition without lying, even when you are a former trial lawyer. He would say no he did not do xyz, and then in the next sentence say he did xyz because it was my fault. I've never seen him so thrown off guard. 

A deposition can be an excellent tool to reveal lying. Your ex is lying in the intervention order, she will lie in the deposition, and then when cross-examined on the stand, she will lie. You can count on it.

Unfortunately, depositions can be expensive. I prepared the binder of emails for my L which saved me quite a bit of money, but I still had to pay for her to prepare, plus the 4-5 hours we were being deposed. And then I had to pay $700 for the transcript. Also, it will give the opposing L to see what kind of witness his client will be, as well as you. If she is terrible, the L may persuade her to drop the intervention order.

[Aussie JJ]

She has the ability to control herself. 

The lieing is fairly easy to uncover.  There is one witness we already have that confirms a fair few lies that she has and will tell.  It's the old dont show your hand game here. 

My L has highlighted the expense of bringing out these lies.  He was quite frank with me about the costs.  I've decided to ignore the costs as long as it is in my sons best interests long term.  It will get to a point where I cant afford it and I'll deal with that then. 

TY for input guys.  Helping me see others perspectives on this. 


AJJ. 

[livednlearned]

If you can establish that she is lying for the Intervention order, it should help you in Family Court, no?

A judge is considered to be the ultimate witness in a case. That's how they are treated in appeals processes, which I found surprising. So if a judge finds the Intervention to be false, that's one amazing "witness" for you in family court.

[ForeverDad]

In my case, I did settle on agreeing to a "no findings" order but we had already been in family court for about 6 months and my standing there was already established.  From the very first hearing the guy from CPS had stood and stated, "We have No Concerns about Mr FD."  Yes, she kept making allegations for years but the court was already viewing them with skepticism.  My settling her harassment allegations wasn't that big of a deal.

On the other hand, you may not have established your credibility with family court yet, so you may rightly feel you need to protect your reputation in court as much as possible at this early stage while simultaneously weakening hers and lending credence to your position that she is doing this (only now when you are seeking recognition as father) just to obstruct your parenting.

Remember that besides (1) "Yes" or (2) "No", you can also state (3) "I don't remember" for those few times when maybe you didn't handle everything exactly perfectly.  That is a better answer than "Yes but... ."  All the court will latch onto is "Yes" and it could be viewed as an Admission of Guilt despite your qualifications of the situation and circumstances.  Unless she recorded it, it would come down to your word against hers and if you have proof her other claims are false then her case would be weaker.

Is this case in family court or another court?  Whichever, just be sure that if the worst happens and she gets some court ordered level of "protection" then it is kept totally separate from the pending parenting issues.  Courts are usually scrupulously careful to keep adult behaviors (you two adults) separate from parenting behaviors (parent and child).

[livednlearned]

Courts are usually scrupulously careful to keep adult behaviors (you two adults) separate from parenting behaviors (parent and child).

This was fuzzy in my case. My judge took seriously N/BPDx's pervasive anger toward me. It didn't die down after a year or so like most divorcing parents. That, and flagrant disregard for the judge's authority, and the parenting coordinator, is what helped me get full custody.

So in general, yes. The court cares about parent/child behaviors more.

It can often depend on the judge, for better or for worse.

[SlyQQ]

A couple of things if you are taking stock one you should list your goals ( these may actually be different than winning the case ) i.e. your sons emotional and physicall wel being as one your own as two finacial stability because these impact on one an two as primary secondary

and retribution as perhaps a teriary concern

list what you think your parners main ( as oposed to stated ) goals are does she want money ( probably was one in my case ) emoyional power etc genuine concern for your son ?

 once you are happy with these it may help you plan a way forward

[SlyQQ]

Also further to what others said in this formatt winning over the judge I think is the most important thing there is often a lot of he said she said stuff that may not be supportable by hard evidence that will swing the case That may not be the case in "normal " court proceedings presenting your case as believable an honest is very important ( in my case i felt a barrister hindered this process ) I felt it was more a "Judge Judy " situation it is a tv show Remember that people with BPD can be very goog at fooling Police officers an judges on the surface ( partly because they sort of believe what they are saying ( you said your judge was unpredictable that may be becuse she relies on her feelings

[Aussie JJ]

No show at court, no sworn statement, elaborated the story more via phone with the police prosecutor.  Provided more evidence that she was searching for someone to align with her by saying she had been to multiple police stations. 

Solicitor says, give her rope. 

Her goals are basically deny access.  Money will be one of the ways she does this by trying to run me out of money. 

It's a weird situation, for the first time ever I am not concerned about the money.  Next hearing I am asking for a deferral unless she shows up at court.  If she is a no show solicitor basically said ask for a deferral, if the judge wants to listen state the above. 

Never happened. 

No sworn statement. 

No evidence. 

Police haven't interviewed me about the claims.  They have had 4 months so they cant be taking it seriously. 

Story has already changed twice. 

Second no show at court. 

If the Police don't provide this information by the next hearing their is no reason for the order to stand.  As I haven't done any of the things claimed might as well save time and money and throw it out now. 

He said straight to the facts and repeat.  A few specific ways I have to word it but basically deny. 


AJJ.