What to do about BPDxw already introducing D3 to new guy

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'll try to keep this short.

I was with a non-diagnosed BPD woman for almost five years.  We have a daughter together who just turned 3.

We split in mid-September.  I discovered two weeks ago that she is seeing someone else.  Between that and the holidays, I was a little distraught - had urges to get back together.  Those seemed to have passed.  I have been dating, and it seems like the start of an actual healthy relationship, but we are in agreement that meeting each other's child is not going to happen for a few more months (roughly six months from when we met).

What concerns me is that she "inadvertently" told me that the man she is seeing now has already been introduced to our daughter.  I have spoken to a lawyer who specializes in custody agreements.  He has informed me that it is not uncommon to have provisions in the custody agreement regarding how long you should be dating someone before they meet the child (he said six months seems to be the standard for a child my daughter's age), how soon before the child spends the night at the new partner's home, and how soon before my ex can move in with him ie my daughter would be living with him during my ex's allotted custody.

We had agreed to a 50/50 schedule from the beginning, and that has worked out fine thus far.  She suggested in the beginning we would need a formal agreement and that we should have a plan for when our daughter meets new people we are dating.  This has obviously gone out the window.

After I found out about our daughter having met him, I expressed to her my interest in setting boundaries around that - stressing that I was not looking to interfere or stop him from seeing her (my lawyer advised to let that go, that it would take 8-10 weeks before we would be in front of someone that could force that to happen).  She finally responded that we are living separate lives and we will discuss our daughter's custody schedule, but that our personal lives are not up for communication.

The lawyer has also suggested that I try to follow the informal agreement as long as possible so I can prove that I can handle the 50/50 custody split.  But to let him know if there is any reason to believe my daughter is in danger or if her mother starts requesting more than 50%.

My fear is that her living situation is temporary.  She is living with an older friend of hers - I know, love, and trust this woman and was happy that my daughter would be living there since her mother does not have a stable income as of yet.  She moved her remaining belongings from my house yesterday, I have suspicions that she moved them to her new boyfriend's house.

I really don't have much fear about this guy, from what I have learned he has his own daughter, is stable, nice, etc.  However, I fear that my ex will be advancing this relationship quickly.  Beyond moving in, she has always expressed that she wanted to get pregnant again in 2015 (with me at the time) because she did not want a longer age gap between her children.  We moved in together roughly 8 months into our relationship.  She got pregnant (despite being on birth control) a few months later.  She terminated that pregnancy after a fight.  I decided to forgive her and restarted the relationship and she was pregnant again a couple months later (despite being on birth control - after that I refused to have sex with her without a condom).

My lawyer seemed to think I have no reason to expect less than 50% custody.  He also thinks that my desires regarding when my child can live with this man are reasonable and is something he has seen agreed upon before.  

It seems to me that I am unlikely to get her to agree to these provisions, she seems to think I am trying to control her life.  I feel good about my chances in the Pennsylvania system.  What I fear is that she will become vindictive in that BPD way and make the process much worse than it has to be.  

Just wondering how others have handled a situation like this.  And how to weigh the impact on my daughter of potentially living with someone new so soon (and the chances of this relationship ending and her beginning another immediately and so on) vs the impact of a vindictive custody battle on her (as well as likely pushing her mother to start bad mouthing me to her).

Sorry this got long winded.

[Cleveland]

I'll try to keep this short.

I was with a non-diagnosed BPD woman for almost five years.  We have a daughter together who just turned 3.

We split in mid-September.  I discovered two weeks ago that she is seeing someone else.  Between that and the holidays, I was a little distraught - had urges to get back together.  Those seemed to have passed.  I have been dating, and it seems like the start of an actual healthy relationship, but we are in agreement that meeting each other's child is not going to happen for a few more months (roughly six months from when we met).

What concerns me is that she "inadvertently" told me that the man she is seeing now has already been introduced to our daughter.  I have spoken to a lawyer who specializes in custody agreements.  He has informed me that it is not uncommon to have provisions in the custody agreement regarding how long you should be dating someone before they meet the child (he said six months seems to be the standard for a child my daughter's age), how soon before the child spends the night at the new partner's home, and how soon before my ex can move in with him ie my daughter would be living with him during my ex's allotted custody.

We had agreed to a 50/50 schedule from the beginning, and that has worked out fine thus far.  She suggested in the beginning we would need a formal agreement and that we should have a plan for when our daughter meets new people we are dating.  This has obviously gone out the window.

After I found out about our daughter having met him, I expressed to her my interest in setting boundaries around that - stressing that I was not looking to interfere or stop him from seeing her (my lawyer advised to let that go, that it would take 8-10 weeks before we would be in front of someone that could force that to happen).  She finally responded that we are living separate lives and we will discuss our daughter's custody schedule, but that our personal lives are not up for communication.

The lawyer has also suggested that I try to follow the informal agreement as long as possible so I can prove that I can handle the 50/50 custody split.  But to let him know if there is any reason to believe my daughter is in danger or if her mother starts requesting more than 50%.

My fear is that her living situation is temporary.  She is living with an older friend of hers - I know, love, and trust this woman and was happy that my daughter would be living there since her mother does not have a stable income as of yet.  She moved her remaining belongings from my house yesterday, I have suspicions that she moved them to her new boyfriend's house.

I really don't have much fear about this guy, from what I have learned he has his own daughter, is stable, nice, etc.  However, I fear that my ex will be advancing this relationship quickly.  Beyond moving in, she has always expressed that she wanted to get pregnant again in 2015 (with me at the time) because she did not want a longer age gap between her children.  We moved in together roughly 8 months into our relationship.  She got pregnant (despite being on birth control) a few months later.  She terminated that pregnancy after a fight.  I decided to forgive her and restarted the relationship and she was pregnant again a couple months later (despite being on birth control - after that I refused to have sex with her without a condom).

My lawyer seemed to think I have no reason to expect less than 50% custody.  He also thinks that my desires regarding when my child can live with this man are reasonable and is something he has seen agreed upon before.  

It seems to me that I am unlikely to get her to agree to these provisions, she seems to think I am trying to control her life.  I feel good about my chances in the Pennsylvania system.  What I fear is that she will become vindictive in that BPD way and make the process much worse than it has to be.  

Just wondering how others have handled a situation like this.  And how to weigh the impact on my daughter of potentially living with someone new so soon (and the chances of this relationship ending and her beginning another immediately and so on) vs the impact of a vindictive custody battle on her (as well as likely pushing her mother to start bad mouthing me to her).

Sorry this got long winded.

[livednlearned]

Hi Cleveland,

There are a lot of members here who experience exactly what you're describing -- introducing kids to new partners immediately. With the holidays, it might be a little more quiet here but people will start trickling in. If you title your thread "she is introducing my D to new men immediately" you'll get a rush of responses  

I didn't have the situation you're describing, but wanted to comment on the legal part. The dirty secret about parenting orders or custody orders is that anything you don't want the other parent to do, you have to enforce it. Which means you have to pay your L each time it happens. People with BPD don't respect boundaries, and that tends to include court orders. So very likely, if you don't want your ex to introduce D3 to different men, you will have to file a motion for contempt in court after she disregards the order. And family court tends to treat motions for contempt like parking tickets. Only when they stack up does court start to pay attention, because it suggests disregard for the rule of law. I'm not saying you shouldn't include that stipulation in your order, because you definitely should, just to let you know that it won't stop your ex from introducing D to new men. You might even want to strengthen the language to say that if ex cohabitates with someone, alimony ends (if you are paying her alimony). As much as possible, make sure your order has teeth in it, so always be thinking about leverage. What matters to your ex? See if you can connect those things in the order. If she cares about money, make it about money. Don't leave it entirely up to the judges. They have a tendency to give parents two and three bites of the apple before they do anything, and that ends up costing a lot of money with very little effect on the problem.

There are often two battles when dealing with custody and BPD. One is through the courts, and the other is through parenting. What you really want to do is raise D to be emotionally resilient because this issue won't be the only one that puts her in difficult situations. The good thing about our situations is that if you focus on what is emotionally healthy for D, it will change her life and yours. Doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but you'll see amazing things in your child if you focus on emotional health. She's going to need everything she can with a BPD mother.

Here are some good resources on raising emotionally resilient kids: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

The most powerful tool you can use is validation. There's an excellent book called Power of Validation (for parenting) that worked like magic with my son. It's a simple tool, but can be done poorly so it's a good idea to read and practice until it becomes second nature. You can do it with kids as young as 3. People with BPD invalidate kids in serious ways (like introducing them to new partners so quickly) so your job is to validate her -- that's how she will know who she is, which is part of being resilient. 

Just wanted to say one last thing. If you think you should have primary custody, ask for it. Aim high, knowing that there will be some negotiating and you might not get it. But better to ask for what you think is right than ask for what you think you'll get, only to have her outmaneuver you. If your L believes you will get 50/50, don't settle for anything less. The more time your D spends with the stable parent, the better.

[Cleveland]

Thank you.

I am not sure how to edit the thread title.

There is no alimony, so I don't have that.

I coming to terms with my D spending time with him, he is recently divorced and has a D of his own and I am actually thinking it might be a better environment for my D to be in occasionally, than just being with her mother.  The issue will be if there is a constant stream of new partners.  But, with him being recently divorced and he doesn't appear to be particularly attractive, and my ex is very attractive, glamorous, and seductive, I think she is going to suck this guy in.

All of which has me wondering if I should be so concerned about cohabitation.  It might actually be a more stable environment for my D.  Especially if she has to be out on her own, her lack of steady income and poor credit history will really put a damper on how nice of a place she could be living in.

Then again, maybe I am still being "manipulated" into her getting her way.

[david]

The law in Pa changed about a year ago and it guided custody to settle at 50/50. It didn't say that exactly but the way it changed the previous laws it did for all intensive purposes. My ex left in 2007 and back then mom's got kids and dad paid support. That was standard procedure in my county.

Things that worked for me. After getting three protection orders against me and jailed for two weeks I purchased a video and an audio recorder. That stopped the false allegations. Now she just refers to my "evil" past.

I am very involved in our boys lives. We went through a custody eval about 6 months ago. Our boys are 16 and 11. The evaluator talked to both boys individually and discovered that ex does nothing with them at all. S16 normally cooks for his brother an him. I knew that already from them but the evaluator heard it from both of them. I never said a thing to the evaluator about a lot of what the boys have told me. My strategy was to cover things I didn't think they would bring up.

Originally ex got primary custody and I was an EOW dad. I found a better attorney. I didn't know what to look for in the beginning. Once I learned the rules of the game I got better at knowing what I needed to know and do.

Document, document, document. I have copies of every homework of S11 for the last three years. He does over 90% of his work when with me even though mom has more time during school. I have a temp order at this time for 50/50 during school. That should become permanent no later than June. S16's grades went from A,B,C, and D to straight A's this year after I got more time. I have expectations for both boys and they know what they are. I am consistent and they know they can depend on me. I listen and they know they can come to me and talk about anything. Ex has no skills in that area because she is dealing with her own issues to do anything else. Believe it or not but that does become an "advantage" for me. It takes time for the kids to get it. Our oldest got it at around 10. Our youngest is there now too.

I have a calendar of all the time the boys are with me.

I have one sheet of paper giving all the facts with the piles of papers underneath it for my atty. Example, I have every homework of S11. That is around 200 sheets of paper. On the top is the total number of hw's done at mom's and the total done at dad's. I have it further broken done with number complete and correct. For this year S11 did 3 hw's completely and correctly at his mom's. He did 9 partial. He did 45 complete and correct with me and also completed the 9 from his mom's I sign and date everyone. The funny thing is I started signing three years ago and ex followed my lead so she signs the ones he does with her.

I only communicate through email to have things documented. I used to try to explain myself (seven years ago). Now I just deal with issues pertaining to our boys. Whatever ex accuses me of I ignore. Things she makes up to try to engage I ignore. That took me a while to get good at. I think the more emotionally detached you get the better you get at it.

Another thing, I was more worried when the boys were younger. As they got older and figured things out my worries got less.

[Nope]

I coming to terms with my D spending time with him, he is recently divorced and has a D of his own and I am actually thinking it might be a better environment for my D to be in occasionally, than just being with her mother.  The issue will be if there is a constant stream of new partners.  But, with him being recently divorced and he doesn't appear to be particularly attractive, and my ex is very attractive, glamorous, and seductive, I think she is going to suck this guy in.

My DH has two kids with his UBPDex. He got primary custody and the ex lives three states away. The kids have been at their mom's for Christmas break, which is the first time she's seen them in six months. The third day they were in her care was Christmas Eve and she brought them over to her new boyfriend's house. We were not thrilled, but at the same time from what we've been able to peice together he is at least a nice guy. DH has decided that if this poor guy is going to be the next miserable sucker then that's his problem. In the meantime having the kids exposed to him is far from the worst thing. We actually figure that if she's "in love" she's more likely to ignore the kids then to emotionally abuse them.

As for the potential stream of new parners, that may happen. SD11 has seen her mom go through men like toilet paper for a very long time. She commented to me a few months ago that she worries about her mom because she starts out super happy at the start of every relationship and then it just never works out. I've also found thaat when she talks to me about boys and I have advice to give, she listens very closely. At only 11 years old, she knows her dad and I are doing something right.

[Cleveland]

I coming to terms with my D spending time with him, he is recently divorced and has a D of his own and I am actually thinking it might be a better environment for my D to be in occasionally, than just being with her mother.  The issue will be if there is a constant stream of new partners.  But, with him being recently divorced and he doesn't appear to be particularly attractive, and my ex is very attractive, glamorous, and seductive, I think she is going to suck this guy in.

My DH has two kids with his UBPDex. He got primary custody and the ex lives three states away. The kids have been at their mom's for Christmas break, which is the first time she's seen them in six months. The third day they were in her care was Christmas Eve and she brought them over to her new boyfriend's house. We were not thrilled, but at the same time from what we've been able to peice together he is at least a nice guy. DH has decided that if this poor guy is going to be the next miserable sucker then that's his problem. In the meantime having the kids exposed to him is far from the worst thing. We actually figure that if she's "in love" she's more likely to ignore the kids then to emotionally abuse them.

As for the potential stream of new parners, that may happen. SD11 has seen her mom go through men like toilet paper for a very long time. She commented to me a few months ago that she worries about her mom because she starts out super happy at the start of every relationship and then it just never works out. I've also found thaat when she talks to me about boys and I have advice to give, she listens very closely. At only 11 years old, she knows her dad and I are doing something right.

Thank you for this.  It is actually what I was beginning to think.

If she is "happy" with the new guy (and from what I understand, I really shouldn't worry about him - my ex's parents have met him once and reassured me that he seemed very nice, good father, etc.) then she will be less likely to redirect her anger at me toward our D3.  Also, since his D is involved too, I hope that he will be more aware of how she treats both children.

She was on me our whole relationship to get married and for the past year to have another child this year.  Her youngest cousin got engaged on NYE, I know that my ex hated the idea of being the last of her cousins to get engaged/married.  I will not be surprised if she is pregnant and/or engaged within a year of her meeting him; and I suspect that either of those will make it more difficult to enforce how soon she can move in with him (likely give the courts reason to allow her to do so) so maybe the battle is not worth fighting.

If this new relationship ends and she begins another immediately, I would definitely consider filing a petition to change the custody agreement.

[david]

We had our custody order mostly figured out in 2010. I wrote it all and it covered every thing I was concerned about. Ex left in 2007 so I had those three years to figure out what was important and what was not. I spelled out every holiday. Kids possessions belong to kids and can not be restricted to one parents residence. Any change in the custody order needs both parents to agree in an email. These and other things happened during the first three years and I covered every issue. It was all reasonable and the judge copied everything I wrote in the order.

I kind of wish my ex would find another victim because she would lose interest in our boys.

[livednlearned]

If this new relationship ends and she begins another immediately, I would definitely consider filing a petition to change the custody agreement.

I understand your thinking behind this, and it's always good to have a plan. I also think court isn't likely going to worry so much if she gets a new bf, at least not enough that they will consider that a "substantial change in circumstances" to merit a change in custody. Mom being a serial dater is only going to be one data point among many if you hope to successfully change the custody agreement.

The best thing to do is document everything. Treat it like a job, something you do daily if you can. How much time D actually spends with you (if it's more time than the custody agreement), who takes D to her appointments, parent-teacher conferences, what kinds of things you do with her when you're together. When mom has D3, does she farm her out to relatives instead of spend time with her? That kind of thing.

Documenting is the most important insurance you could invest in. If your ex meets a guy who works in another state, or meets someone who gets relocated, she will file to modify visitation and you want a really detailed account of what the parenting arrangement is like so you have evidence that you are involved.

[Cleveland]

Thank you for changing the thread title I appreciate that.

Right now, our informal agreement states that it is a 50/50 split - that's all that we have really agreed upon.  I am not really looking for more than that - I mean I would love full custody, but I don't think I have a legitimate reason to ask for it.  My lawyer did tell me that if my ex ever starts asking for more time, even if it's "I'd like to have her for this weekend for this reason... ." and she doesn't offer to give me an equal amount of time in return to contact him and we will file immediately before she can start documenting that she has our D for more than 50%. 

[david]

Thanksgiving day switches year to year in our agreement. The week is 50/50. If there is an odd number of days the odd day switches form parent to parent.

We went to court in Sept to modify custody. Judge ordered a temp order granting me additional time during school. Ex wanted the entire Thanksgiving holiday so she could take the boys to her out of state siblings. I agreed. She went to her siblings and left the boys with me the entire time. I had no problem with that except she told me the day before she left and I had to scramble to make plans.

Went back to court last week and judge again delayed the hearing. Continued with the modified schedule. Ex wanted last Sat, Sun, Mon, and Tues (which were my holiday days) to make up for Thanksgiving. My atty said to just agree since the judge will be seeing this. Ex worked Sun, Mon, and Tuesday all day so she never seen the boys those days since they were sleeping when she left and sleeping when she came home. I found out Monday morning she was sick and so was S11. Ex gave me the info. I sent an email offering to pick boys up so she could rest and get better. She declined and said S16 was taking care of her and his brother. I was able to get in contact with the boys on Tuesday. That is when I found out she was working each of those days and also that S11 had a sore throat but felt fine. He work schedule will document she was at work and her emails will document her outright lies when we go to court.

Documenting multiple bf's is one thing for the judge to consider like lnl said. Gathering overwhelming evidence to show a pattern is the key in court. Also, if you go to court you must make sure that your attorney does introduce it as evidence. It is a formal procedure that has to be followed. Judges in Pa must base their ruling on the evidence presented. It carries more weight than just sitting on the stand and testifying. If a judge rules and disregards the evidence it can be overturned.

Document all the times. A 50/50 informal agreement for a significant length will be looked at as the starting point for any judge. If she offers you more time without asking for make up time than that is good too. Make sure you document that.

[clydegriffith]

I'm in the same boat and there's really not much we can do about it.

Things ended with the BPDx when my daughter was less than a year old. 3 years later, she's been immediately introduced to the followig guys the mom was chasing or dating:

1) Guy that was married to one of BPDx's friends and who she initially courted as my replacement but the guy didn't want to leave his wife for her.

2) Some other guy that i don't know too much about

3) Guy much younger than her whom she became engaged to and moved in with within months of dating. That didnt' end well as she was caught cheating a few months after that and thrown out of that house

4) The guy she's with now. Again, this is a similar situation to #3 only this time instead of an immediate engagment it's an immediate pregnancy. Two months after relationship with guy #3 falls off, she's pregnant and living with guy #4.

And these are just guys that had the "boyfriend" title. I'm sure she's bought around some of the guys she has NSA sex with around my daughter.

She's a truly dispicable monster with no moral compass and i hate her with every fiber of my being. Calling her an animal would be an insult to the various specieis of the animal kingdom that are capable of monogamy. She's more like sex crazed, soulless beast.

[ForeverDad]

When you file taxes you will find out that IRS (or perhaps it is my electronic preparer?) does not want to let you claim a child deduction unless you have more than 50% time.  Since my divorce in 2008 I have had court orders that state I can claim our child every year (many orders settle on alternating years but I guess she let it happen because she didn't earn enough to pay taxes, at least in the years I know about).  Despite the order, from what I can understand, IRS position is you need to have a signed Form 8332 to avoid or win disputes.  That's probably so it can ignore the confusion and ambiguities of thousands of county courts.  Entering 6 out of 12 months does not work online for me.  So think ahead, if you have Form 8332 filled out and signed in advance then that will be a non-issue for the year or years covered.

Long term it would be nice for you to get Residential Parent for School Purposes also.  Even though your child isn't in school yet, she soon will be.  In my case both lawyers said it didn't mean anything whatsoever except which school the child attends, but for me it did just a few months later... .With me as RP my ex's school was able to tell us goodbye and good riddance with one day's notice, they had had enough of her scenes at school.