Pro-choice for men and women

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well,

I've been on the boards for a few months. I got "oops'd" by a woman with BPD who I was staying with when I was down on my luck. She told me she was infertile and pinned me down during intercourse.

I've been working with my counselor and I have decided to take the stance of "pro-choice" for men and women. She gets to decide about abortion, adoption, and safe-haven. So I should get to decide too. Men and women should have equal rights.

I am adopting a firm stance of it's her child and that I feel no moral responsibility. That she can make all of the decisions, experience all the joy, and take on the responsibility herself.

If she wants to make me pay for her child, then it's her soul that will be stained. How come for men it's "deadbeat dad" and for women it's "pro-choice"? I am not trying to start a political argument, but how come we hold men to these victorian principles when for women it's entirely different story?

My counselor doesn't want me to coparent with this woman. Thinks it could lead to misery that doesn't need to happen. I didn't marry a woman w BPD and agree to coparent. She practically raped me. Lied ot me. Tricked me. Took advantage of me.

Sad thing is that I stand to lose between 25%-35% of my take home pay for 18-21 years. For being betrayed, used, lied to, and hurt. Regardless of the stereotype that men are shallow and etc etc... .I am not. I happen to be very sensitive towards children, so this is a tough and heart wrenching situation.

But I'm devastated. It's so easy for people on boards to dismiss the severity of losing so much of your income... .having to drop lifestyle, savings, retirement, hopes, dreams all because I chose to trust the wrong person.

It could be 200k-350k... .more money than I have ever seen in my life. I will have to move to a crappy place. While she improves her lifestyle.

And I'm going to be funding a dysfunctional parent/child relationship... .forced by the government under "best interests of the child".

If I could get full custody and never have to see her again. That's what I would do. At that point I could really decide what "the best interests of the child are".

But in this situation. It's just a lost cause. I've been feeling suicidal at the prospect of being tied to this woman that did this to me for the rest of my life.

It feels like since I'm a man, a lot of people on here tell me that "I shouldn't feel like a victim". But I truly am a victim. My heart hurts every day at the awfulness of the situation. I feel like vomiting, not just for myself, but for the child, and for the woman w/ BPD as well.

I rarely leave my house except for work. 5 months away from losing the ability to save money. Live pay check to paycheck when I've worked so hard to climb out of the gutter.

I know it could be worse... .but much like a BPD's emotions, it's so confusing and unreal... .I don't know what's up and what's down. The worst part is that when she seems rational and reasonable, I question myself... .but whenever I put down boundaries... .she responds with rage and threats and it's truly crazy and scary and it influences my decision making to the point where I just can't do it at all. To where I'm not sure if what I'm doing is my choice anymore, or if I'm just walking on eggshells.

That's why I just need to exit stage left. If I built a relationship with the child she would use it to just break me down in to nothing... .and I already feel like a shell of a person.

Man, it's so tough. I wonder if I will ever find peace and happiness. Counselor even advising me to move away from this city, that I just moved to and really love, but just can't enjoy... .waiting for something to happen, for her to show up at my work or house. Tainted.

Well... .I've had a four day weekend and barely left the house. I'm so unhappy, shell-shocked, and waiting for the other shoe to drop (birth of the child and resulting legal process or some other crazy dramma).

A pretty girl was talking to me in the elevator, and I just could barely talk to her... .knowing that I am a ruined man... .aside from being completely distraught .

I know it doesn't seem that bad... .but I have no savings and I was really looking forward to the rest of my life after my business failed... .

Now, not so much.

My only hope if to try to convince her not to pursue CS. Maybe I can offer her something more fair (based on actual needs of child, not the child living with me... .?... .e.g. they try to make our lifestyles similar for the child... .it's a really bizarre way to calculate child support... .why shouldn't the child prefer staying in the nicer house? Would that really make them like the other parent less? Don't get it... .)

I just wanted a good life. It's sad that one moment of weakness, or lapse in trust, or missing a red flag can make such a huge difference in a life. these laws need to be changed...

It's bad enough being abused and taken advantage of, but having to write this person a check for the rest of my life for her crime against me (and the child) is just a life that I'd like to escape.

I hope for better thoughts and feelings in the future. As always, your advice is helpful... .but please keep it positive.

I know that there have been people who have been happy in worse financial situations. But i've made sacrifices in other areas of my life to get that extra income... .and to see it go away for such a long period of time is just maddening and so sad for me.

Totally changes the rest of my life.

Stoic

[stoic83]

Well,

I've been on the boards for a few months. I got "oops'd" by a woman with BPD who I was staying with when I was down on my luck. She told me she was infertile and pinned me down during intercourse.

I've been working with my counselor and I have decided to take the stance of "pro-choice" for men and women. She gets to decide about abortion, adoption, and safe-haven. So I should get to decide too. Men and women should have equal rights.

I am adopting a firm stance of it's her child and that I feel no moral responsibility. That she can make all of the decisions, experience all the joy, and take on the responsibility herself.

If she wants to make me pay for her child, then it's her soul that will be stained. How come for men it's "deadbeat dad" and for women it's "pro-choice"? I am not trying to start a political argument, but how come we hold men to these victorian principles when for women it's entirely different story?

My counselor doesn't want me to coparent with this woman. Thinks it could lead to misery that doesn't need to happen. I didn't marry a woman w BPD and agree to coparent. She practically raped me. Lied ot me. Tricked me. Took advantage of me.

Sad thing is that I stand to lose between 25%-35% of my take home pay for 18-21 years. For being betrayed, used, lied to, and hurt. Regardless of the stereotype that men are shallow and etc etc... .I am not. I happen to be very sensitive towards children, so this is a tough and heart wrenching situation.

But I'm devastated. It's so easy for people on boards to dismiss the severity of losing so much of your income... .having to drop lifestyle, savings, retirement, hopes, dreams all because I chose to trust the wrong person.

It could be 200k-350k... .more money than I have ever seen in my life. I will have to move to a crappy place. While she improves her lifestyle.

And I'm going to be funding a dysfunctional parent/child relationship... .forced by the government under "best interests of the child".

If I could get full custody and never have to see her again. That's what I would do. At that point I could really decide what "the best interests of the child are".

But in this situation. It's just a lost cause. I've been feeling suicidal at the prospect of being tied to this woman that did this to me for the rest of my life.

It feels like since I'm a man, a lot of people on here tell me that "I shouldn't feel like a victim". But I truly am a victim. My heart hurts every day at the awfulness of the situation. I feel like vomiting, not just for myself, but for the child, and for the woman w/ BPD as well.

I rarely leave my house except for work. 5 months away from losing the ability to save money. Live pay check to paycheck when I've worked so hard to climb out of the gutter.

I know it could be worse... .but much like a BPD's emotions, it's so confusing and unreal... .I don't know what's up and what's down. The worst part is that when she seems rational and reasonable, I question myself... .but whenever I put down boundaries... .she responds with rage and threats and it's truly crazy and scary and it influences my decision making to the point where I just can't do it at all. To where I'm not sure if what I'm doing is my choice anymore, or if I'm just walking on eggshells.

That's why I just need to exit stage left. If I built a relationship with the child she would use it to just break me down in to nothing... .and I already feel like a shell of a person.

Man, it's so tough. I wonder if I will ever find peace and happiness. Counselor even advising me to move away from this city, that I just moved to and really love, but just can't enjoy... .waiting for something to happen, for her to show up at my work or house. Tainted.

Well... .I've had a four day weekend and barely left the house. I'm so unhappy, shell-shocked, and waiting for the other shoe to drop (birth of the child and resulting legal process or some other crazy dramma).

A pretty girl was talking to me in the elevator, and I just could barely talk to her... .knowing that I am a ruined man... .aside from being completely distraught .

I know it doesn't seem that bad... .but I have no savings and I was really looking forward to the rest of my life after my business failed... .

Now, not so much.

My only hope if to try to convince her not to pursue CS. Maybe I can offer her something more fair (based on actual needs of child, not the child living with me... .?... .e.g. they try to make our lifestyles similar for the child... .it's a really bizarre way to calculate child support... .why shouldn't the child prefer staying in the nicer house? Would that really make them like the other parent less? Don't get it... .)

I just wanted a good life. It's sad that one moment of weakness, or lapse in trust, or missing a red flag can make such a huge difference in a life. these laws need to be changed...

It's bad enough being abused and taken advantage of, but having to write this person a check for the rest of my life for her crime against me (and the child) is just a life that I'd like to escape.

I hope for better thoughts and feelings in the future. As always, your advice is helpful... .but please keep it positive.

I know that there have been people who have been happy in worse financial situations. But i've made sacrifices in other areas of my life to get that extra income... .and to see it go away for such a long period of time is just maddening and so sad for me.

Totally changes the rest of my life.

Stoic

[momtara]

You can feel however you want to feel.  You shouldn't feel bad for it.  It's a shock to the system and not something you were expecting.

It's true that it could be worse, but that doesn't mean that you can't feel really bad about it.

I am sensing, from your post, that you want to walk away.  But you feel a little guilty about it.

Maybe there are men who have been in a similar situation, on some other board, who can talk about what it's like to stay away but also care about the child on some level, or want him/her to be happy.

Maybe you can't deal with a child emotionally right now, but someday you'll be able to.  Maybe there's some legal option.

Part of the problem is, you seem to be lying in wait to see what she will do.  It's hard, the waiting.  I know.

If your financial situation isn't so great, I can't imagine why a court would charge you so much.  It's possible it won't be as bad as you think -- truly, really.  But I guess it's a while for you to find that out.

[clydegriffith]

This is a topic that really infuriates me. We as men have zero reproductive rights. The feminazis spread all of this "women's right's" and "pro-choice" poropoganda but what is the first order of business when a child is born? Go after the Man and take him for all he's got for the next 18  years!

I really really hate this country sometimes. The land of the free isn't really the land of the free. America is only a good place to make money and that's about it. I can go back to my home country and live in much more freedom than i do here.

Rant Over.

[stoic83]

This is a topic that really infuriates me. We as men have zero reproductive rights. The feminazis spread all of this "women's right's" and "pro-choice" poropoganda but what is the first order of business when a child is born? Go after the Man and take him for all he's got for the next 18  years!

I really really hate this country sometimes. The land of the free isn't really the land of the free. America is only a good place to make money and that's about it. I can go back to my home country and live in much more freedom than i do here.

Rant Over.

Can I come with you? I really want to go back to France... .where children receive a salary when they are born so that women aren't incentivized to do this to men.

If she goes through with the CS, essentially she's moved her quality of life up 2 or 3 notches and mine down 2 or 3 notches.

And the courts say that it's a byproduct of "best interests of the child". Providing a better QOL for her, provides a better QOL for the child... .and that the child shouldn't see me living a good life, and her living a bad one. Well the child never will see my life, because I have to move away. I know better than to think I can save an innocent child from a manipulative and deceitful woman w/ BPD who will lie, cheat, and steal to get her way.

It's ridiculous. It's all women's lobbies and men who are so codependent and cowardly, that they will play in to the "knight in shining armor" fantasy, that men who are with BPD women are told never to play.

The family court system rewards women who are irresponsible, and punishes men who are responsible... .all in the "best interests of the children".

Then it's supporters shame men for being tricked. Telling us it's our fault for trusting them. That we should abstain from recreational sex... .while the media, press, and pop culture shoves recreational sex in our face, and women's rights movements encourage "pro-choice" and "sex-positivity".

Maybe if women knew that they wouldn't get a free ride from their victims or the gov't for popping out illegitimate children, they would be more careful.

Awful. Awful. Awful.

[clydegriffith]

This is a topic that really infuriates me. We as men have zero reproductive rights. The feminazis spread all of this "women's right's" and "pro-choice" poropoganda but what is the first order of business when a child is born? Go after the Man and take him for all he's got for the next 18  years!

I really really hate this country sometimes. The land of the free isn't really the land of the free. America is only a good place to make money and that's about it. I can go back to my home country and live in much more freedom than i do here.

Rant Over.

Can I come with you? I really want to go back to France... .where children receive a salary when they are born so that women aren't incentivized to do this to men.

If she goes through with the CS, essentially she's moved her quality of life up 2 or 3 notches and mine down 2 or 3 notches.

And the courts say that it's a byproduct of "best interests of the child". Providing a better QOL for her, provides a better QOL for the child... .and that the child shouldn't see me living a good life, and her living a bad one. Well the child never will see my life, because I have to move away. I know better than to think I can save an innocent child from a manipulative and deceitful woman w/ BPD who will lie, cheat, and steal to get her way.

It's ridiculous. It's all women's lobbies and men who are so codependent and cowardly, that they will play in to the "knight in shining armor" fantasy, that men who are with BPD women are told never to play.

The family court system rewards women who are irresponsible, and punishes men who are responsible... .all in the "best interests of the children".

Then it's supporters shame men for being tricked. Telling us it's our fault for trusting them. That we should abstain from recreational sex... .while the media, press, and pop culture shoves recreational sex in our face, and women's rights movements encourage "pro-choice" and "sex-positivity".

Maybe if women knew that they wouldn't get a free ride from their victims or the gov't for popping out illegitimate children, they would be more careful.

Awful. Awful. Awful.

There is no doubt in my mind that if there were not a system in place that financially rewards women for having children with any man that has anything around a middle class income or above, the ___ that i'm humiliated to call my children's mother would have thought very long and hard before having 5 kids by 3 different guys.

[Rubies]

I won't apologize for stating the obvious, but if you don't want to be a daddy, don't get the girls pregnant.  Take responsibility of your reproductive rights.  Sounds like you exercised it without protecting it.  You two aren't the first I've said it to, you won't be the last and I'm not afraid to say it to boy's faces.

Protect your condoms before and after sex and always use them.   

I speaking to you as a woman and a mom,  one who no matter the circumstances would never consider killing a child.   Pro choice is whether to have sex or not.  Sex=Reproduction=Babies.  It's a feminazi lie you get sex without consequences. Yeah, I was a homeschool mom of daughters.  It's never a good time to get pregnant, nine months later is a dang good time to have a baby!

Please be men and fathers to your children.  Without you in their lives you are abandoning them to another generation of BPD.  Co-parenting with a BPD?  Not likely.   Maintain firm business-like, no BS boundaries with BPDmom for the kid only, sticking to legal document only and don't play into stupid games. 

[Mutt]

This is a very difficult subject. Multiple opinions are welcomed but please be courteous, respectful, and remember that it is not a debate - it is an exploration of different perspectives.

[Skip]

This feels like a disagreement, but what are we disagreeing about?

Stoic and clydegriffith have had children with women that they are no longer involved with and are angry about the financial obligations that the state is imposing on them. This is a done deal and the case law is well established in all States.

Rubies is saying protect your condoms before and after sex and always use them and "don't get the girls pregnant". We are well past this stage, too.  

Please be men and fathers to your children.  Without you in their lives you are abandoning them to another generation of BPD.  

Is this the core issue? How do we make this choice? This is the choice that is still on the table and facing both members.  

~ What are the important factors to consider?  

~ Is it that the pregnancy was not voluntary?

~ Is it that the biomom pisses us off?

~ Is it that the the child needs to be saved from a BPD mom?

Something else?

And is there a one size fits all answer - or is it situation specific?

[HappyNihilist]

Stoic and clydegriffith have had children with women that they are no longer involved with and are angry about the financial obligations that the state is imposing on them. This is a done deal and the case law is well established in all States.

Rubies is saying protect your condoms before and after sex and always use them and "don't get the girls pregnant". We are well past this stage, too.  

I agree with Skip. It's important to focus on what's in front of us, not what's behind us. The current reality of child support obligations and the importance of using condoms can be filed under "lessons learned." (I would have added "the hard way," but that seems redundant - most lessons are learned that way.) These lessons learned will certainly help us with our decision-making in the future - unless we enjoy watching history repeat itself  - but staying stuck on them will not do anything to change the situation we now find ourselves in.

[WhyMe?]

She told him she was infertile. How is this his fault?

[Mutt]

I'm Canadian, the laws here differ from the US and it's relatively the same concepts. I posted for help on the legal board when I arrived on BPDFamiy. I was emotionally distraught, my wife had left with the kids and was denying me reasonable access to them.

Everyone has different circumstances, situations, and experiences and I'm sharing from my perspective and experience.

When I had met my wife we quickly had unprotected sex. She had said she was on the pill. The next day she had said she had forgotten to take the pill.

We weren't in a committed relationship. She had returned to school to get credit in a different vocation and was living in a different town than I. I was working full-time. We had a passionate romance, she was returning back to live with her mom after she had finished school. I wasn't head over heels with her when we first met.

The day before she left she had left a note saying how much she loved me, how wonderful the time we spent together etc. I was going through a minor depression at this time and I wanted to settle down. I thought in the back of my mind "Is she my wife? If I let her go, I may be letting go of someone that's meant to be my wife"

I contacted her by phone, she lived several hours away and told her I think I want to come up and see her. I got a call later and she told me she was pregnant.

I was scared. Having been abandoned by my biological mother and abandoned by my father in my teens. I couldn't abandon my child having lived what I had lived through. Knowing what I know now, it wasn't a healthy choice for myself to marry my wife because of a child. I would have done things differently today. I would have gone for shared custody. It is what it is.

I later had 2 more kids with her. D8, S6, S3.

I'll never forget the day my D8 was born. I was 31 at the time. I had gone through many difficulties in life, anxiety attacks, depression, SI. The first thing that came to my mind was.

31 years meant nothing until now

She changed everything.

My marriage was bad. It takes two. I brought my emotional baggage into the marriage. My wife began an affair and left with the other man. I couldn't leave my kids behind in dysfunction. I had to be their voice and I had to be the one that took care of them emotionally and offer them stability in their lives to give them a chance.

I can't control what my wife does in her home I can control what I do in my home. By being the best father I can be, I can reshape their future landscape. After all, emotional needs are important? I know this having lived through it from childhood and doing the work here on bpdfamily. My depressions were from unresolved issues from FOO, anger turned inward can become depression? You can take a look at the Healing board to get a glimpse into a possible future. A future I'm trying to minimize.

I took the advice from our Legal board as many members previous to my arrival had gone through legal custody issues and I set forth and filed for a shared custody order. It wasn't fun, and today I have zero regrets in the choice I made. I would do it again if I had to.

Kids have a right to both parents. It is their unconditional love for both parents. Not the animosity and hurt feelings between either parents. Conflict is secondary.

I was their voice in court. I kept my head down, didn't listen to my lawyer if his advice was not synced with my goals. BPD is hard to detect and he didn't see the conflict I spoke of with my ex. I needed court appointed boundaries to have life less chaotic for the kids. My lawyer caused a lot of stress and unfortunately my ex had taken all of our finances before she left. I didn't have the money to hire a new one and I was using my lawyer to navigate me through the legal system. To make a long story short, he quit before we were going to trial. I continued Pro Se and was able to get my demands, plus a few minor details that my ex wanted in the court order. You can't win every battle.

I can look back today knowing that I made the right choice. I'm a single dad with shared custody and work full time. There are days that are difficult, they do spend half of the time at mom's too and I get a break. I'm doing it, a single parent raising three kids. My kids are close to dad, they're calm and their grades have improved in school and I do the work at home, I validate their feelings, I show them mom's not a taboo subject at home so they talk openly. All things I learned on the co-parenting board.

Personally for myself, its not about money. It's about being a dad and I can't think of anything more rewarding in life. I don't look backwards, I look forwards with my family. I learn something new everyday as a dad, I'm excited to see where our journey will take us

[Turkish]

She told him she was infertile. How is this his fault?

While I sympathize with this subject (that men should have more of a say once the baby is out), how can anyone know this short of a lie detector test. My Ex said she had unprotected sex with a previous bf for 8 months and it never took (this was true). She was willing to get pregnant the first time with me. Being half of the DNA equation, I had half the responsibility. Her cervix was also scarred from precancerous cells when she got HPV from said boyfriend two years before we met. What were the odds, right? FWIW, I calculate the second time we had unprotected sex that S4 was conceived. Similarly, when she removed her IUD, she was pregnant with D2 within 3 weeks.

A friend of mine on leave from overseas had unprotected sex once with a woman. She said she was on BC. Three years later, he got a letter telling him he had a three year old child. She had a kid already, and now has another from a third guy. He can't stand her, but he came back to be a father. He resents the heck about paying her money that she also uses for the other kids. He's trying to get full custody, but I think his chances are slim. He's so angry that he engages in subtle alienation. He won't listen to me about that much. His choice, his kids' loss, but having spent a few days with them around Christmas, I can see that his son accepts my buddy as his dad. As resentful and frustrated as he is (he isn't a PD, but he's not exactly health either due to either a borderline and/or schizophrenic mother).

These are stories, ones that began with choices. I can't discount extreme DV bordering on male rape, especially if drugs or alcohol are involved. California recently passed a law which also seems to tilt "drunk sex" squarely in favor of the female, implying that rape can only go one way.

At the end of the day, aside from sociology and politics, we're left with biology. The fact is that women carry the baby and give birth. The Male Protector mindset has been codified into our legal system. It leaves more of a burden on males to make healthy choices. For many of us, especially those of us who grew up in dysfunctional homes, our choices are impacted by our FOO, though that's not all of us.

You're traumatized and conflicted, stoic. I can't say what the right thing to do here is. I'm not in your shoes. I won't say "trust your gut" because I feel from your posts that you think you know what you want to do, but that you are still torn. Realities are still to come, too, unknown. Although I believe that values are black and white, choices often aren't so much due to the fact that we can't control the outcomes,.as much as we would like. To find peace, one has to be comfortable with the choices one makes, and realize that the consequences aren't often so clear. They can change as well. So can we. Nothing is set in stone.

So what will give you the most peace in the long run, for stoic+ten years, say? No matter what choice you make, you won't be quite the same person. No one is...

[HappyNihilist]

She told him she was infertile. How is this his fault?

While I sympathize with this subject (that men should have more of a say once the baby is out), how can anyone now this short of a lie detector test.

[... .]

At the end of the day, aside from sociology and politics, we're left with biology. The fact is that women carry the baby and give birth. The Male Protector mindset has been codified into our legal system. It leaves more of a burden on males to make healthy choices.

I would just like to add that using condoms is self-protection in more ways than pregnancy. Especially if you're having sex with a person you don't know well, or with someone whom you know has a history of promiscuity, unprotected sex, infidelity, and/or lying. There are a lot of nasty diseases out there. Take care of yourself.  

That being said. I'm a woman, but I empathize. It must be a very difficult, painful situation. I definitely agree that a lot of laws and societal customs are skewed in favor of the mother. As Turkish said, it's the biological fact of maternity, coupled with the provider/protector concept. Sometimes fathers in these types of situations walk away, and it's understandable, given the obstacles they face.

We have to find our own happiness and peace in the face of our external circumstances. We can work towards this by determining our core values and living in accordance with them - regardless of what the world throws at us.

[SlyQQ]

If you could get her to admit this you could probably sue her

[Rubies]

She told him she was infertile. How is this his fault?  

His sperm fertilized her egg creating a new life.  This new human being is totally dependent on the goodwill of her creators, one of which has BPD, and the world for survival.  Having a good dad will make all the difference in those children's lives.  

You can catch worse, more permanent things by having unprotected sex with someone you don't know well enough to know they are abusive liars.  Since  this is Parenting After the Split, we all did it.  Some of us married it and stayed way too long before getting it out.

Every time I've been in a courtroom, and our courts are very user friendly, I've watched the judges order immediate transfer of custody of small children to involved fathers.  The fathers humbly tell the judge what their little kids told them what happened at mom's house, judge lights into questioning the mom.  3 minutes later neither parents know exactly what happened as the judge has clerks and bailiffs scurrying as he is loudly lecturing the entire court on the examples parents will set for their children.

Not my fault... . My youngest kid, I didn't want to be pregnant but I had unprotected sex with my BPDh because that's what he wanted.  We had no money, no insurance, I wasn't healthy, the marriage wasn't good.   She has disabilities.   This isn't my fault, I shouldn't have to be responsible, I should let her be eaten alive by the BPDs?

[momtara]

Let's get off the topic of fault.  You can be angry at the woman, or yourself, or whoever, but now there's an innocent child who needs decisions made.  It is possible that it's healthier for all involved for the father to walk away, at least for a time, or maybe not - that's the issue here.  His mental health matters too, as well as the ability to coparent with this person.  I think he shouldn't necessarily sign away his rights to the child - he may regret it later, and the child may need him when older, and maybe there will even be a situation in which he can have custody.  However, for now, the question is - Is it a good idea for him to try to parent with this woman in some way, and stay involved, or not?  That is a difficult question to ask and one many here have faced.  Sounds like he has his own issues to focus on.

If you have unprotected sex, especially with someone who you can sense is a bit "off" and might not know for sure, there will always be some risk.  Again, lessons learned.  None of us knew what we were getting into with a BPD person.

Even if you can't respect the parent/mom, respect the child.  

So let's get back to the matter at hand.  It's hard to really know how much money you'll have to pay for this child.  I think there must be some other opinions out there as to whether you should stay involved or not, and if there's a way to do that a little bit without hurting yourself.  Not sure.

[clydegriffith]

In the words of someone that commented on a previous thread i made, i think it comes down to this:

Are you able/willing to handle all that will be necessary in dealing with a BPD co-parent in order to maintain somewhat of a relationship with your child?

In my case, the answer would most surely be no. The only reason i'm still involved is because the BPD's mother acts as an intermediary and is a genuinely nice person. Child or no child, i'm not going to drive myself to the brink of insanity dealing with the mother.

Look at this way, there are two options:

A) Psychological and Financial ruining at the hands of the BPD and maintain some sort of a relationship with the child

B) Bolt and be free of the psyhoclogical and fianncial damage the BPD will cause but not have a relationship with the child

Now, i wouldn't say this to anyone that isn't my therapist but i don't need to pretend to be someone i'm not here and say "the the right things". After being pushed and pushed as far as i've been pushed, i would opt for option B. A part of me would really love to see the BPDx struggle without the significant financial assistance i provide.

[Skip]

So if biomom was willing to give you custody and basically go away and grandma was willing to work with you on a visitation schedule that you devise, does it make a difference?

[clydegriffith]

So if biomom was willing to give you custody and basically go away and grandma was willing to work with you on a visitation schedule that you devise, does it make a difference?

Yes, that would change everything. I just don't want to deal with the BPD mom, that is my problem.

I know everyone's experience with the person with BPD is different but the individual i'm dealing with is extreme even by BPD standards. She had me falsely arrested 4 times within 8 months on false DV charges, cheated on me with about a dozen guys, some of which were my friends and the last of which i walked in on, she's had 5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years. Just so much drama and nonsense. All of this after i gave her a chance, moved in with her and her two other kids and tried to make it work between us. It's been 2 1/2 years post breakup. I'm still healing from the nightmare i was put through and want no part of having anything to do with her.

[Skip]

So why not work it all via grandma?

[clydegriffith]

She told him she was infertile. How is this his fault?

That's what i've been trying to do but she is still just an intermediary and just relaying messages.

I haven't seen my daughter since October. I wanted to get her for a few days in December and mom says she's too busy. Thought i may be able to get her for a few days in January and she's saying she has to work on the days i wanted. I have this back and forth with grandma because it'll get ugly if i deal directly with mom. So even though grandma has been doing her best to work things out, she's just a mouth piece for mom right now.

[Rubies]

Men lie to get sex, women lie to get security.    There are hormonally driven female sexual predators who only want sperm.  Some have been caught emptying the used condom into their vaginas.  She's using the free sperm bank.  If the woman is financially able to cover everything for herself, and many are, the donor never knows he has a child.

The problem arises if she needs to tap public services for prenatal care or food stamps.  It is no longer her choice to tap you for child support, it is state support enforcement doing it to you.  Her cooperation is mandatory to receive benefits.   I've seen young males throw major hissy fits and create a lot of drama for the woman because the $25 a month they were ordered to pay cut into their beer money, and well, they don't like being told what to do by anyone.

Getting pregnant, or fake pregnant to get a man to marry is a tactic as old as time itself.  It no longer works in our liberated society.   Feel fortunate you're not facing a shotgun wedding to your BPD.  

Know that judges are aware of BPD and can spot it, and they don't want the drama in their court, so keep your emotions under control.  BPD's bad behavior will continue and will not be in the best interest of your child.  Build your family support team, co-parent with BPD's mom until you can present to the judge in the best interest of the child.

Don't let a BPD use your kid to jerk you around.  Get a visitation order and enforce it.   If she won't honor it, go back with a cop for the documentation.  Have it before the judge within 10 days and let the judge deal with BPD, they're good at it!

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, there is a lot of fault, prior mistakes by both parents, and NOTHING of it can be changed now. All it does is get in the way of finding the best answer to the question at hand:

However, for now, the question is - Is it a good idea for him to try to parent with this woman in some way, and stay involved, or not?  That is a difficult question to ask and one many here have faced.

And that question is plenty hard enough all by itself.

[ImaFita]

I agree that we should take ownership of our reproduction and wear a condom - but it is a harsh lesson to learn.

Now a child exists for the sole purpose of manipulation, you will do as you are told - otherwise you will not see your child. If the Mother is willing to get pregnant using manipulation, you are kidding yourself if you think she'll be understanding about a financial agreement. I've been through both, I've had a female say she was on the pill - and couldn't have kids anyway. These aren't the type of girls who will waver a financial agreement - just because it is the right thing to do. If you have a job, you feel like quitting out of principle - that she is getting a free ride by manipulation, but on the other hand if you do actually quit, then you are only hurting yourself. Then there is also the issue of not being able to work because mentally you cannot cope - which I imagine would be common.

[clydegriffith]

I agree that we should take ownership of our reproduction and wear a condom - but it is a harsh lesson to learn.

Now a child exists for the sole purpose of manipulation, you will do as you are told - otherwise you will not see your child. If the Mother is willing to get pregnant using manipulation, you are kidding yourself if you think she'll be understanding about a financial agreement. I've been through both, I've had a female say she was on the pill - and couldn't have kids anyway. These aren't the type of girls who will waver a financial agreement - just because it is the right thing to do. If you have a job, you feel like quitting out of principle - that she is getting a free ride by manipulation, but on the other hand if you do actually quit, then you are only hurting yourself. Then there is also the issue of not being able to work because mentally you cannot cope - which I imagine would be common.

This is exactly what i'm thinking. If worse comes to worst i have a backup plan. I can always go back to my home country. Even though i havent been there since i was 5, i have lots of family there in the more affulent parts of the country and i don't think it would be too difficult to get a job and start my life over again. The more i think about it the more attaractive that sounds. I can be there and live on the beach, have my pick of beautiful women and be free or stay here and deal with non-stop drama from the BPDx, give her 1/3 of my salary for the next 14 years and see my kid once every two months. The thought of how much the BPDx would struggle financially without my money brings a smile to my face.

What would you do? I don't think that's a very difficult decisoin for most to make.

I'd like to hear some people's thoughts. We are on annonymous internet board. There is no need to cave to any sort of pressure of "i want to do the right thing" and all that other goodie-goodie nonsense.

[momtara]

It's an extreme solution to give up forever, so you just have to make sure you are comfortable with it.  I don't think it's terrible to go back to your home country or somewhere else, if five years down the road you aren't going to have second thoughts and want to come back.

[Rubies]

Now a child exists for the sole purpose of manipulation, you will do as you are told

I don't agree it's the sole purpose, a BPD never misses the chance to manipulate and control others.   She also wants a new play toy who she will soon tire of and cast aside, along with her meal ticket.

[Skip]

What would you do? I don't think that's a very difficult decision for most to make. I'd like to hear some people's thoughts. We are on anonymous Internet board. There is no need to cave to any sort of pressure of "i want to do the right thing" and all that other goodie-goodie nonsense.

It would be an extremely difficult decision for me. This is about who you really are.  I don't think the member answers above are burdened by political correctness.  For me, it wouldn't be "beer or baby, chose one".

Read the fathers that fought for custody on the legal board.  Read the daughters on the coping board that have a father that left them to fend for themselves.  Ever wonder why Shari Schreiber is so angry at people with BPD?  Look up her story (published circa 2006) - her father left when she was 5 (she blames it on BPD and mother).  

The road we travel defines us.  You are standing at a fork in that road.

One thing that I think many will agree with is that this is not the parenthood we all envision. Although talk to the world of single mothers/fathers and this is a plight many faced for their children.

Another thing that I think many will agree with is to stop hiding behind the wall of blame. Did the mother trap you, or is this just a outcome an emotionally immature relationship that fell apart with the stress of pregnancy. pwBPD don't do stress well. Or maybe she is cunning and having lots of babies with different men is her goal.  Either way, man up and don't use how the pregnancy came about to justify making this child be fatherless/you daughter-less.

This also not black and white.  You have options.  There are many intermediate steps between going for primary custody and leaving the country with no forwarding address.

[momtara]

However, if the father has his own mental health issues, he is going to have to do a lot of work to set boundaries.  If staying in the picture is just going to destroy him, it may not be healthy right now.   However, I do think that giving up on her forever is not a good idea if you think you might have second thoughts.  There may be some middle ground - just not sure what it is.

[stoic83]

However, if the father has his own mental health issues, he is going to have to do a lot of work to set boundaries.  If staying in the picture is just going to destroy him, it may not be healthy right now.   However, I do think that giving up on her forever is not a good idea if you think you might have second thoughts.  There may be some middle ground - just not sure what it is.

This is what my counselor suggests.

Since I last posted... .her sister prank phone called me (diagnosed bipolar) and threatened to harass me, and told me that "Whether I liked it or not, I was going to be attached to their f'd up crazy family forever." She kept calling me "The Jew"... .and told me that I was either going to support her sister, or pay 18 years of child support.

The woman wBPD herself felt slighted after I told her about how depressed I was and that I was numb. (Advice for disengaging)... .and she launched in to a brain crushing, child support rant... .threatening and telling me if I didn't go to counseling and her appointments she was going for full pop child support.

Then she sent me a bunch of texts telling me she needed to be loved and told how pretty she is, etc... .etc... .I've never felt like I've wanted to hurt a woman in my life... .but I can say that I've thought about it.

Last night I screamed at swore at her... .for hours. She finally broke down and cried, and told me how much she cared about me... .and it was just pathetic.

My brain is mush. My soul and spirit are trampled... .and I've been contemplating suicide, because I need out of this situation.

There's no way in hell I can be involved with any of this anymore. And there's absolutely nothing I can do for this tiny infant girl being born in to the hands of an emotional terrorist that could manipulate any one of you in to thinking she was mother theresa.

In regards to my not being more "careful". Well I am careful. The level of manipulation used was highly skillful... .my counselor compares her to glen close. This woman not only lied to me about infertility, but also about birth control, and also pinned me down with force... .

I don't feel any sense of moral responsibility for the outcome of her deception. It's just sperm, it's just dna... .parenting is a choice.

I don't really believe that genetics plays a huge factor in to parent/child relationships. I have adopted cousins on both sides, and they view their parents as anyone else does.

Right now, there is nothing I can do for this child. And I doubt there ever will be. If I were to get emotionally attached, it would be a recipe for suicide.

I just am extremely damaged from this entanglement. I am moving away from here so that I can regroup, and perhaps later in life I can be involved.

But really, I just feel like a sperm donor. If a woman wants to keep and raise a child, and a man doesn't... .she should have to pay for it.

I don't mean to sound heartless here, but it's just a fetus at this point. And if I never develop a relationship with her, then I will just be a sperm donor... .perhaps a paying one. I guess I could just look at it as a tax or something. BPD tax.

These days more and more women are having children out of wedlock. Maybe the laws will change soon. They probably should, as the child shouldn't live "my lifestyle" unless they are living with me. We can't homogenize people just say kids don't favor one over the other... .I doubt kids really care about money. They care about love and personality... .sad that this little girl won't get to know me in her early years, because her mom decided to bring her in to an awful situation.

My life is not any less valuable than the child's. Everyone is equal. And the government should support this child if they insist on it residing with her. Because if I knew I had a shot in hell at full custody, then I would probably go for it.

That sucks that there is another child born to a BPD mother, but would I really want to become fully emotionally invested in this child's life? I know what happens... .

I am an anxious and highly sensitive person... .I'm with clyde, it's just not worth it to get emotionally involved with the child. If anything, the conflict between me and the mother... .and our differing values would probably be confusing for her.

I have absolutely zero chance at getting custody... .and shared custody would be an absolute nightmare.

My counselor says to "RUN" and to check in later, and see if BPD mom followed through with DBT like she said she was going to... .

I guess she was waitlisted and I thought she was going to start this month... .she may have been lying, but I think she was telling the truth.

In any case, my counselor may be a bit biased... .but I think she is concerned about my health and what I have to offer society. She seems to be masking anger towards this woman for what she has done and is doing to me. And I know it might not be completely professional, but I think I need to look out for myself here.

I have been a part of this site for years... .I have already gone through a BPD rs that was in many ways worse and more protracted in this one... .it's just that this one's poison is going to infect me and this child for life.

I can't be the "knight in shining armor" to this little girl. The BPD mom, her entire crazy family, and the state family law (aka anti-male MOB) will never let me save this girl... .

Probably best to throw out the life-raft... .and find a healthier place to be, and either fight from there... .or wait until she has found somebody else so that the focus is off of me, and maybe I will have a nice girlfriend or wife by then!

And we could help the girl? Then she could decide to live with us, when older?

That would be a nice ending... .well don't want to speculate. Haven't seen any DNA results, and might not for a very long time... .

Honestly, I'm so much more concerned about my own survival and financial future, that I'm not worried about the infant.

Infants need love and food. Not really much I can do there anyways... .