Dealing with Passive Aggressive interaction this morning... I think need advice

[formflier]

I've gotten some good insight from others asking questions and giving their points of view... .and since I'm up by myself... .I might as well lay out what happened this morning.

For me... .zero trigger. 

Our "normal" morning routine is to wake up about 6... .make sure first kid is moving towards school and then we have snuggle, talk, pray time together in bed.  That has been getting less and less lately.  Holidays... .schedule upsets getting back to school.  some sickness... and IMO... .lots of choices by my wife that have dramatically shifted the schedule later.  She would probably say "it just happened"

Anyway... .I wake up alone this morning.  I knew she was going to stay up... .but didn't know she was going to sleep somewhere else.

So... .I turn on bed heater on her side and head off to see where she may be.  several kids are awake watching TV in one of the bedrooms and she is lounging in bed. 

"Hey... .I turned on the bed heater on your side if you want to come up and hang out for a while"

Up she came and we cuddle but hear our youngest crying for mommy downstairs. 

I suggest that we have the oldest one that is awake (12yrs) keep the baby up and play with the baby.  That will help reset her schedule so she is not up in middle of the night so much and we can be alone.

"She was not up in the middle of the night last night... .she's just tired" (direct quote from wife)

"That's good to know... .if she was not up in middle of the night then she should be OK to stay up with middle kid (substitute name)... .correct?"  (pretty direct quote from me)

"silence"

Baby comes in room and snuggles with Mommy.

No detection of trigger or anything... .voices are all calm at this point.  The silence is the only tell that something may be amiss.

"I thought we had agreed that we needed to reset the baby's schedule... ."

"silence"

(time between these are about 20-30 seconds... .)

"do you want to reset the baby's schedule" ?

(with some agitation)

":)o whatever you want... ." (wife)

"do you still agree that the baby's schedule needs to be reset" (me)

(with more agitation)  "Can't we just talk about this later?... .all you have done since I've been up here is to be after me... ."

"Honey... .I'd be happy to talk to you about this later... ."

The entire time we are snuggled against each other.  I stayed for 5 more minutes.

I leaned over so I see her face... (we had been spooning... .she facing away)... .eyes were wide open... .maybe some concern or agitation... .who knows.   I kissed her cheek and said... "I'm going to try to get some stuff done... .we can snuggle and talk later... "

I left the room... she and baby in bed. 

This is a typical interaction where I "need" or "want" to know what she wants... .

Note:  If I "do what I want... ." later she will tell me that I should have wanted something different... .or words to that effect.

What I'm driving to is getting a positive answer... .or clear negative

"Yes I want the baby's schedule reset.  I would like to rest but if you could play with baby... that would be great... ."  (I would fall over dead with a clear answer like this... .)

or

"No... .I don't want baby's schedule reset... ."  (that would trigger a follow up discussion... .which I would guess she would claim is unpleasant... )

My version is that she wants to decide... .and have me out of it.  I'm fine with some sort of mutual agreement... .or letter her decide some things... .let me decide some things.

I'll hush for now... .looking forward to some perspective on what I can do better.

[Notwendy]

Hi FF, I don't know if I can tell you what is going on, but I can share some perspective as a mom, and so maybe that helps. How old is your wife- and the baby? You have 8 kids, which I think is great. I love the idea of a large family. I also know that having kids took a lot of energy and physical stamina for me. I did experience some post partum depression. Also, hormone changes and kids waking up at night could mess with my sleep cycle. When I asked about your wife's age it is because poor sleep was part of perimenopause for me, which can start hormonal swings long before actual menopause. Sometimes, if I am wide awake at night, I will go into another bed in the house- not because it has anything to do with my H but sometimes I need to read, get a glass of milk, and I don't want to wake him up. He is a light sleeper. I know the idea of me sleeping in another bed isn't something he likes, but it really is more about being considerate and taking steps to get back to sleep. I can be tired in the am too, if I haven't slept well.

Your wife may want to adjust the baby's sleep cycle, and also enjoy cuddling the baby. As my kids got older, I recognized just how quick and fleeting these stages are. Holding a cute cuddly baby is heaven, really, and it doesn't last long. I remember how my older women friends just wanted to hold my babies when they were little, and now, that I am past the stage where I have my own babies, when I get the chance to hold a sweet cuddly baby, it is a moment in time that is cherishable. It is possible that your wife could have been caught up in the moment.

I only say this to give you a view into the feelings of a mom. I could be entirely different from your wife, but moms share a lot of these feelings. It seems there are mixed signals when the two of you want to be together alone and one of the kids needs you. I remember feeling conflicted when the kids needed me, and also so did my H. The tendency to side with the child is that the adult can understand postponing needs better ( or so we hope ) than a non-verbal child. However, what is going on is bothering you. Would it be possible to find a way to be alone with her without the kids around, just for a short while to talk about what is going on? Do you ever get time together when it is just the two of you? I realize that's pretty hard to do with a large family.

[formflier]

 Wife is 42... .still reading post.  I'm 45

[Notwendy]

42 is old enough to start feeling some of the changes, not always huge ones, but if she is stressed and getting up at night with a baby, her sleep cycle might be interrupted.

At 42 she may be thinking this is your last child, even if you are still thinking about having more. She is aware of the biological clock. In this case, she may be hanging on to those cuddles. I know I thought about that.

[formflier]

I only say this to give you a view into the feelings of a mom. I could be entirely different from your wife, but moms share a lot of these feelings. It seems there are mixed signals when the two of you want to be together alone and one of the kids needs you. I remember feeling conflicted when the kids needed me, and also so did my H. The tendency to side with the child is that the adult can understand postponing needs better ( or so we hope ) than a non-verbal child. However, what is going on is bothering you. Would it be possible to find a way to be alone with her without the kids around, just for a short while to talk about what is going on? Do you ever get time together when it is just the two of you? I realize that's pretty hard to do with a large family.

Very helpful to get a mom's perspective... .and woman's perspective.  I've very "logical"... .Naval officer... .naval aviator... .so I think about "training" my kids to behave a certain way... .I want them to be confident... .independent...  My wife is definitely the emotional touch in the family.  I have to be conscious about "connecting" with my kids... .it doesn't come naturally.

I'm going to bring this up later this morning... .the theme is that I don't get clear answers.  When I do get a clear answer... .most of the time there is not much follow through.

So... times when we discuss a parenting issue... .get clear answer... .and have that come true... .are rare.

In her world... .I'm supposed to pay attention to her... .understand her needs... .support her... .I'm supposed to know here and lover her enough that I "get it"... .and do things that she likes... .without a clear answer.

For a long time I made the mistake of arguing back... .or staying present when she would dysregulate and rain doom upon my head for not doing what I should have... .(in my book... ."guessing wrong... ."  

Things have improved... .but I suspect she is disappointed that I've "stopped guessing"  She most likely interprets this as me not trying... .

Without a clear answer... .I'm not.  

For a while I would try to get a clear answer if she was going to be ok with my guess... .basically give me immunity from a rage if I "got it wrong".  That didn't work out so well... .

[formflier]

42 is old enough to start feeling some of the changes, not always huge ones, but if she is stressed and getting up at night with a baby, her sleep cycle might be interrupted.

At 42 she may be thinking this is your last child, even if you are still thinking about having more. She is aware of the biological clock. In this case, she may be hanging on to those cuddles. I know I thought about that.

Most likely this is the last one.  Will be two in a couple months.  If she would "share" the desire to have last couple cuddles... .where I got to "have it my way with the kid sometimes... ."  I would be more understanding... .but my influence or ability to make decisions is on the way down.

Honestly... .there is resentment building over this.  It's not her baby... .it's ours... .

I'm not asking for half of the decisions... .I would like some influence... .and some mutual discussion and agreement about parenting... .again... .not even half the time.

Sigh... .

Please keep the comments coming... .very helpful

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it is good to know that I can help.

Your wish for your wife to talk about her feelings is the same as my wish for my H. I wish he'd tell me what he wants intead of not telling me and then raging at me for getting it wrong. Perhaps this inability to talk about feelings is part of the problem. My H likes to be the logical one, which makes it even harder to bring up feelings.

I can tell you that when I was in my 40's, in a way, I grieved in a way each milestone of my youngest child because it was the last... .first day of preschool,  first day of kindergarten, starting high school. There are moms who have told me that they want to spend as much time as possible with their pre-schooler since this is the last time for them that they can do this before they start school. This doesn't mean I was morose and depressed- these were happy moments, but also that I was aware that these were marking time while also knowing the next stage could bring wonderful things too and being proud of their growing independence. There is a book that I have read parts of: Necessary Losses by Judith Viorst that explains this well. We lose the baby stage and eventually gain a relationship with a wonderful adult child. One is necessary to get to the other.

Whatever is going on with you and your wife, I hope that you are able to get to her feelings. I respect logic, but using logic to understand feelings can throw fuel on the fire. I would say that we have the same formation in our family- he sees himself as logical and I am emotional, but he has almost a contempt for being emotional which is triggering to me considering it can feel like a put down. Some feelings are illogical by nature, but they are there regardless.

Is your wife scared to talk about her feelings because she knows you like logic over feeling? I know that I was afraid to do this, but in my case, it triggered my H into a rage, and this isn't happening with you. You did mention your wife was the quiet one in her family. It could mean that she wasn't encouraged to discuss how she feels there.

I don't know what is going on with your wife, but I hope that the two of you can find a safe way to talk about it- when you two are not in the moment of you wanting  her attention and baby wanting it too.

[formflier]

  It could mean that she wasn't encouraged to discuss how she feels there.

I think that very well could be the case. 

My desire is to "share" the kids.  If she really wants those moments... I will happily move aside my desires... (for a time) to let her feelings and desires be satisfied as best is possible.

Resentment builds when I am clear about what will satisfy my feelings and desires... .she makes decisions that prevent that... .and then claims it "just happened... " and " I should have said something... ." "I should have been more clear... "

For instance... I willingly stepped aside and let our youngest two spend some time with her parents between thanksgiving and Christmas.  "my part" of the negotiation was that over Christmas I wanted lots of "just us" family time.  I was very specific that it was family dinners that did it for me.  I defined that as 10 of us at the table... .at the same time... .sharing a meal... .no electronics... .no games going on.  Just dinner table conversation about us as a family. 

We have one child at college... .so Christmas is the only time that can happen.

We didn't have one family dinner... .not one.  I kept bringing it up... .she kept having "reasons"...

Not one... .

[formflier]

 

And this is after she got "her part"... ."my part" didn't come true...

[Notwendy]

That's interesting. My H has expressed feeling left out of the time the kids and I have together. However, he also has left the child care to me, and it is inevitable that this happens.

However, when we are all together- which is hard when kids are older and have more commitments, we do have family time. H doesn't like this to be intruded on. I get it. I have more time with them, so I don't mind sharing it sometimes. He gets less time and doesn't want to share. I also like it when there is Dad alone time with them. I think it is important for dads and kids to have their own relationship.

Where this gets imbalanced is the "work" of family time. When it is one parent having time with kids, that parent is really on the front line of carrying it out. When it is "family" time, it is often me arranging family time and attending to the kids' basic needs.  I get that in the grand scheme of things, my H has made a significant contribution: there would be no table, roof over it, or food on it without dad's efforts, but the meal and organization of it is up to me. In the moment, when I am cooking and attending to both the kids needs and H's needs, it can kind of blend into the same thing even if it isn't.

Another analogy is that H can be at work all day with people needing him- secretaries, colleagues, all are needing him for something. Then he comes home and if I ask him for something, it can feel like more of the same. He knows intellectually that it isn't but he's at the point of being tired of being asked to do things. However, he won't necessarily say this too me, but instead resist my requests or get angry.

Perhaps it is the feeling of meeting both your kids needs and your needs at the same time that your wife is having trouble with? This thread is also helping me see how my H might feel about some things and how I can understand his feelings when I am focused on the kids and he also wants me to consider him. Some things are common to many moms and dads no matter how they deal with feelings.

You mentioned your older one is in college. The "empty nest" feelings are challenges too.

[Jack_50]

Hi FF,

It seems that you're in the classical resentment situation : husband resents wife for living only in an emotional world; wife resents husband for NOT living there.

You need your wife to be more factual, and she needs more emotional support from you.  Both of you are unwilling to give in to each other, as you've build up frustration through the years.

And that's where the resentment starts.

And then you'll stop giving in to the other's needs.  And disregarding the other's feelings.

Creating even more frustration, as you've pointed out.

She's not giving you what you want, because you don't give her what she wants.  And you end up in this endless arm wrestle, where both try to wear the other one down.

Not sure about the best way forward, but I would start telling her (calmly) that you're disappointed that you didn't get your end of the deal, while she got hers.  And then let it go.

Next time it happens, repeat, still calmly.  

After several occurrences, it will become apparent that you're constantly being shortchanged.  She will also realize it, as long as you keep bringing it up consistently.

For yourself, prepare some backup.  This stalemate might go on for quite some time, so be prepared.  :)o not let yourself get discouraged, since you know what is going on now.

Consider every time you're being shortchanged as an opportunity for you to express (calmly) your disapproval, and consider this as one step closer towards the solution.

At the same time, you might want to try to learn more about feelings in general, and women's feelings in particular.  Shaunti Feldhahn has some good books and online content about it.

Jack

[Jack_50]

NotWendy,

Your husband is exhausted from the stress of work, and the last thing he needs when he comes home is another list of things to do.  He needs recovery time.

I read somewhere that this comes from a male biological necessity : testosterone is produced during the night, and highest in the morning.  Stress destroys testosterone, so the levels will decline during the working day.  A man on low testosterone is tired and moody, and has a "leave me alone" attitude.  It is actually a biological mechanism for him to be able to relax and to rebuild his testosterone levels.

This is where the classical "when he comes home from work, the only thing he does is lay in front of the TV" comes from.

Interesting stuff... .

[Notwendy]

Thanks Jack, that helps.

An issue might be that when his testostrone level build back up, I've been tending to the kids all evening and don't have one drop of estrogen left  

Breast feeding is known to drop estrogen levels too.

But knowlege is power, and knowing these things can help make room for understanding and meeting the other person's needs.

[formflier]

 

One thing to bring up... .and clarify... .

Any "emotional need" that my wife has brought up in counseling that has been identified with an action... .has been met.

100%... slam dunk.  

She is probably at 10-20% on "accomplishing" what we have agreed to.

For obvious reasons... .not a subject she wants to discuss... .

I realize there are BPD traits in all of this... .and that provides lots of the "reasons"

But... .there comes down to facts... .not one family dinner.

Right now... the next time a "deal" is proposed by her... .it is my intention to "get mine" first.


I have clearly indicated to her over many years my disappointment and feelings about being left out... .this has been shared in and out of counseling... .EXACTLY in the manner my wife has asked it to be shared.

My belief is that it is more an issue that my feelings/desires don't match hers... and that horks her off... .because I don't "agree" with her... .

Last counseling she spent a long time explaining to me and the counselor that me asking the question if my daughter said something meant that "I thought she was lying again and couldn't be trusted... "

My wife said that my daughter was making choices about her college based on her boyfriends families desires.  That they have control over her and we don't... .

Sigh... .

[formflier]

Notwendy,

If you and your husband came to a mutual agreement about a household/parenting issue... .and then you did something else... .especially if that something else was almost opposite of the agreement... .

How do you think that would play out?

Note:  agreement is something that both say you can live with... .but neither wants.  Compromise.

[Notwendy]

I also want to mention that the bond between mother and child is not logical in the feeling sense. It is logical biologically, but oxytocin and other hormones fuel a unique emotional bond. It is known that a baby's cry in a room full of lactating women will make all of them have a milk let down. Even long past this stage, a baby crying will produce a strong protective emotion for me, and I don not have this same emotional response to me H ( that would be wierd). That kind of bond is different. Fathers also have their own strong emotional bond to their children and partners. But having different biological roles and different hormones certainly can explain different feelings. I am not sure I could pay full attention to my H with the baby crying in the next room, even if I knew cognitively that the child was OK. It would be a distraction at the least.

[Notwendy]

FF, It was hard to agree on anything when it came to parenting. He expected me to do it. He sometimes didn't like something I did. I tried to accomodate him. Honestly, trying to co-parent was a rocky road.

I couldn't really ask him to do anything that he thought I should do. I did mention a time when he agreed to watch the kids and then backed out at the last minute. I was very upset about this. I soon learned not to ask him at all. I walked on eggshells most of the time around him.

He is happy to take on the traditional male role of supporting them and being a dad in the dad sense, but he left the day to day parenting to me and didn't seem to have time for it. Something about a baby's sleep cycle would not even be a discussion. I was the one getting up with the baby, so it didn't effect him at all.

However, we did have intimacy issues when I didn't have the energy to pay attention to him, and reading this thread makes me realize where I may have contributed to them. I think we were somewhat similar to your family in that we had very traditional roles in the home, but I know I resented him not helping a little more, and he probably resented being the one to work and come home to a tired wife.

He's really a good father and husband in the traditional sense, but sometimes it feels as if we are parallel to each other more than connected. Maybe this is the best we can do at the moment.

[formflier]

 

I can see this... .there is frustration when dealing with a partner that has BPD traits... .agreement and unreliability is a big part of that.

[Notwendy]

Agreements are difficult. However, I know my H has followed through on agreements that he wanted to do and that matter to him. I do the same. In the end, I can't force anyone to do what they aren't going to do, unless in a position of power like a boss, or parent-as far as chores or homework, but children also have their own ideas and need incremental freedom to make decisions too.

Did your kids ever complain about those group projects in school? Basically, the kid who wants the high grade ends up doing most of the work and the other kids get credit too. The alternative is for the kid to do less work and get a lower grade, but that isn't acceptable to him (or her), so he does the work. In a similar way, if the baby needed to be changed, then it was easier to just change the baby. My H cares about the lawn. I don't. He takes care of it. Two parents won't likely parent the same way. The one most concerned with how something is done might take that part on, if it is OK with the other, or decide to let it go and let the other one do it their way.

My H and I are pretty much aligned on core values and I think you and your wife are too. I would say I think we both wish the other were more attentive to our emotional needs, but I don't know if some expectations are realistic. I talk more than my H, and so sometimes he doesn't want to talk, but I can "talk" here, call a friend and as long as I respect the boundaries of privacy, and the boundaries of a marriage ( I wouldn't just call up a man to chat) , I can get some of my talking and sharing needs met that way. My H also likes to spend time in hobbies that I don't enjoy and having his hobby time meets some of his needs too.

[formflier]

 

One thing as I compare stories... .would your husband complain about stuff... and seemingly make sure it didn't get fixed... .so he could still complain.

My wife will complain about needing more "family time"... .yet she is the one that makes choices that cause it not happen...

hmmmm.

[Notwendy]

It's hard to tell. There is sometimes a conflict between what he says and what he means. There is also a push pull. He needs a lot of space, and I have come to realize that I do too, even if I would long for closeness.

He will say he is over worked, and then take on an additional project at work. I do think he is sometimes conflicted. However most of the time he is quite effective at what he wants to get done.

I used to wish that we had a closer emotional connection, more togetherness, but now I have come to accept that this may not be something that works for us. His family, to me, as an outsider, seems very enmeshed. Mine is too. I think we both fear that.

I've also come to accept that a lot of togetherness and being on the same page about things may not be necessary for a good marriage. Some of this is due to T and being encouraged to not be co-dependent. Now, the basic values and boubdaries are there- I am not looking outside the marriage for anything I shouldn't be looking for, but it is OK for me to get some needs, like socializing with female friends, and his hobbies on our own. We get along better when we give each other space, although this is something that is easier done now that our kids are older.

[Cole]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

[formflier]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

I suspect you are on the right track cole...

[Notwendy]

Yes, if I make the decision, or take charge of something, then I take the blame if it doesn't go right. By avoiding decisions and doing things, he doesn't risk making a mistake at them. However, what he does take on, he is very competent at and does them well.

[Notwendy]

We talk about the topic of being human and making mistakes in ACOA group. Many members feel if they make a mistake that they are the mistake, and we need to forgive ourselves when we do the best we can even if we make mistakes.

My H had a very critical dad who humilated him if he made a mistake. My mom also speaks of he mother as being very competent at everything. My mom is very insecure about doing things and will ask me over and over about something like trying a new recipe or picking a book for her book club.

My dad did so much for my mom, that to us she seemed helpless. When he died, we thought she'd fall apart. She still has her issues, but she is doing amazingly well on her own ( she does have some household help, but that's pretty normal for an elderly person). We ( siblings) were just talking about how much she can do for herself, even if it isn't always without mistakes. Maybe this is a lesson to accept our partners efforts and mistakes- as they may be learning what their parents didn't give them the space to learn in.

[Cole]

Is this really about the kids, or her inability to tell you what she wants?

My wife does the same thing with not giving clear answers. She will avoid making decisions, eventually leaving me to make the decision for her. That way she has no culpability if it is the wrong choice.

I suspect you are on the right track cole...

I suspect we are alike, in that we both come from backgrounds where the ability to take decisive action meant the difference between life and death.

My wife, on the other hand, comes from a home where my mother-in-law just could not wait for her to screw up so she could rub it in her face. And she knows her emotions get in the way of logic, so she has little faith in her own abilities at times. The end result is that she will not make a decision then accuses me of being a control freak if I do not pick what she really wanted (but would not tell me).

I have slowly been helping her along by refusing to make certain decisions. If she feels she made the right choice, I tell her how good she did, careful to avoid being patronizing. If she makes a decision that turns out to be a mess, I tell her I probably would have done the same thing, let's just find a way to fix it. Should we end up divorced (a 50/50 possibility) I want her to have the skills she needs to handle things on her own.  

[maxsterling]

In my opinion, asking a pwBPD to give clear and logical answers is completely futile.  You are asking the impossible.  It's about the same as asking your dog to talk.  My wife cannot make decisions for herself about what she wants, anytime, EVER.  And when she does, it's not more than an hour before she is second-guessing her decision.   It's part of the illness, and I have come to accept (however annoying it is) that this is the way she is now, and likely will always be.  There is nothing I can do about it.

Trying to put myself in your wife's shoes:  She feels something regarding this issue, but doesn't know exactly what it is.  She is incapable of making the decision about it now.  She may be tired.  You bringing it up, and continuing the conversation is irritating her.  You are asking her to answer something she doesn't know.  And worse yet, she doesn't know how to properly enforce her boundary that she is not in a position/mood to discuss right now.  pwBPD are BAD with boundaries.  So, she responds with passive aggressive behavior.

Maybe I am way off base here.  But when my wife gives negative reactions, silence, or passive aggressive reactions to things, I know that is my cue to DROP THE SUBJECT.  The solution to these "standoffs" depends on how important the subject in question is, the urgency, and the mood my wife is in:

- I can make the decision for myself, and then inform her of my choice.  Put it upon her to negotiate if she wants something different.  Often, she wants me to make the decisions, so if I feel this is what she really wants, this option goes well.

- I give her choice A and B.  Simplifying helps her decide.  ":)o you want to eat at abc restaurant or xyz?"  works better than "where do you want to eat?".

- BIG decisions regarding finances or legal stuff - best to make sure you do your homework first, then go slow.  Once you get the basic facts out there, expect her to tire, and you may have to revisit the issue.  Eventually, I have discovered that even on the big issues, it eventually boils down to discussion and then simplification to A vs B.  

[Cole]

It seems that you're in the classical resentment situation : husband resents wife for living only in an emotional world; wife resents husband for NOT living there.

OK, this one made me laugh because it is so true! Friends describe our marriage as "Spock meets Lucille Ball".

[Notwendy]

Max, you are right on with this. If I try to push through the standoff it is trouble. I need to learn to back off.

Spock and Lucille Ball, I just love it, but that means I'm Lucille to my H.   

[formflier]

 

Victory!  Or at least a step in the right direction.

We had alone time this afternoon. 

The unanswered question came up... .I chased the answer.  She did the dance... .non answers... .accusations.

I told her I was invalidated by her telling me my emotions.  I expressed non  understanding... .and left the room.

It wasn't abusive... .she got agitated... .but it was not abusive.

Anyway... I came downstairs 10 minutes later and asked her to ride me over to pick up a car that got worked on.

She gave me a big hug and apologized to me.  She clearly said "I want to reset FF kids schedule... "

We hugged 10 seconds or so... .I said I love you...

We hugged for 30 seconds or so more... .broke the hug...

she swatted me on the rear and said I've got to run get the kids from school and then we will go get the vehicle.