Adult special needs child - child support trust fund

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am doing my homework/groundwork as I am making plans to ask for a divorce at some point this year.  My uBPDw and I have been married almost 34 years.  We have three grown children; one married, one finishing college and working, and our oldest who is 28 and intellectually challenged.  Unlike many with BPD, my wife has overall been a good mother and I anticipate offering to allow her to have custody and asking for the usual every other weekend, divide holidays, etc. for myself.  I am confident that unless something catastrophic happens when we start the divorce process, he will be fine to live with her.

In our state a child who is permanently disabled is entitled to receive child support for life, and I think that is appropriate.  However, he also receives SSI and Medicaid benefits.  Any child support I pay will be counted against him as income and will reduce his monthly benefit dollar for dollar.  If it is enough to eliminate his monthly check he will also then lose his Medicaid coverage.  This can be avoided by paying the child support into a special needs trust fund, which his mother can use for his needs.

Has anyone else had experience with these trusts?  Are they expensive or difficult to set up?  Is there anything in particular I need to know about setting one up or paying into one.  Anything his mother will need to know about using the money?

Unless I am mistaken, while I am required to pay c/s, setting up a trust is optional.  I would be willing to do this, both as a benefit to my son and hopefully as an incentive to my wife to not make the divorce process more difficult than necessary.  Any input welcome.

[jedimaster]

I am doing my homework/groundwork as I am making plans to ask for a divorce at some point this year.  My uBPDw and I have been married almost 34 years.  We have three grown children; one married, one finishing college and working, and our oldest who is 28 and intellectually challenged.  Unlike many with BPD, my wife has overall been a good mother and I anticipate offering to allow her to have custody and asking for the usual every other weekend, divide holidays, etc. for myself.  I am confident that unless something catastrophic happens when we start the divorce process, he will be fine to live with her.

In our state a child who is permanently disabled is entitled to receive child support for life, and I think that is appropriate.  However, he also receives SSI and Medicaid benefits.  Any child support I pay will be counted against him as income and will reduce his monthly benefit dollar for dollar.  If it is enough to eliminate his monthly check he will also then lose his Medicaid coverage.  This can be avoided by paying the child support into a special needs trust fund, which his mother can use for his needs.

Has anyone else had experience with these trusts?  Are they expensive or difficult to set up?  Is there anything in particular I need to know about setting one up or paying into one.  Anything his mother will need to know about using the money?

Unless I am mistaken, while I am required to pay c/s, setting up a trust is optional.  I would be willing to do this, both as a benefit to my son and hopefully as an incentive to my wife to not make the divorce process more difficult than necessary.  Any input welcome.

[catnap]

From a little reading around the web, yes you want to use a trust to ensure that your son does not lose his benefits.  "Setting up a revocable living trust allows you to change your trust at any time.  These trust funds are more expensive and time consuming, but worth it in the end because they allow you more freedom to change the trust if certain circumstances occur, such as wanting a different trustee." www.specialneeds.com/legal-and-trustees/general-special-needs/setting-special-needs-trust-fund

This would be important in the event that your ex predeceases you.  Who becomes trustee after both you and your ex are gone . .those kind of things.

I would suggest that you speak to a few trust attorneys to find out what will work best for your situation and the future.  avvo.com is a free service to find trust attorneys in your area questions and also find the ones that offer free or low cost initial consultations. 

[jedimaster]

Thank you catnap.  Had not thought about the survivorship issue.  That is a definite factor in favor of setting one up. 

[Grey Kitty]

I'm familiar with one like catnap describes.

My brother-in-law is in a similar situation. He is living independently. (He is legally competent, so no guardianship; my wife has POA)

My father-in-law (the surviving parent) has set up a trust like that. It is structured so it cannot pay for the things that his SSI (or other government benefits) cover, so as not to interfere with them. My wife and another sibling of hers is the trustee after her father-in-law dies; it is his money, and he can move it in and out while he's alive... .It is possible that his will is going to transfer things to the trust, or perhaps they are already there.

This money is expected to go for his travel, or for family members assisting him to travel to him, or buying him larger ticket items for his household, etc... .as of now, his other benefits cover his medical, housing, and nominal living expenses.

How well it works won't be known while my father-in-law is alive though.

I'd strongly suggest you consult a lawyer who works in that area too.

[livednlearned]

I would be willing to do this, both as a benefit to my son and hopefully as an incentive to my wife to not make the divorce process more difficult than necessary.  Any input welcome.

Hi jedimaster, I don't have anything to add about the trust, but just want to say that while not all BPD divorces are high-conflict, you can expect a fair bit of conflict. Whatever pattern of conflict exists in your marriage is likely to be present in the divorce. Meaning, when you do something positive for her now, did she reciprocate by making things easy for you?

Do what you think is right for your son because it's the right thing for your son, and have no expectations that you will receive anything in return from your wife, is my advice. I gave my ex the house in hopes that it would minimize conflict, and in return, had to go to court three times to get him to refinance.    

The reality is that the way your wife responds will largely be independent of anything wise or kind or thoughtful that you do. It's divorce. If she does not want it (and even if she does), there are many, many ways to obstruct, stonewall, and delay. When you're ready to file, come back to visit us here and people can share some of the strategies that helped minimize that particular type of conflict.

[jedimaster]

I would be willing to do this, both as a benefit to my son and hopefully as an incentive to my wife to not make the divorce process more difficult than necessary.  Any input welcome.

Hi jedimaster, I don't have anything to add about the trust, but just want to say that while not all BPD divorces are high-conflict, you can expect a fair bit of conflict. Whatever pattern of conflict exists in your marriage is likely to be present in the divorce. Meaning, when you do something positive for her now, did she reciprocate by making things easy for you?

Do what you think is right for your son because it's the right thing for your son, and have no expectations that you will receive anything in return from your wife, is my advice. I gave my ex the house in hopes that it would minimize conflict, and in return, had to go to court three times to get him to refinance.    

The reality is that the way your wife responds will largely be independent of anything wise or kind or thoughtful that you do. It's divorce. If she does not want it (and even if she does), there are many, many ways to obstruct, stonewall, and delay. When you're ready to file, come back to visit us here and people can share some of the strategies that helped minimize that particular type of conflict.

I completely understand what you're saying.  As you say, she doesn't reciprocate thoughtful gestures now, so I'm under no illusions that she will do so in a divorce situation. 

I'm thinking more along the lines of an attempt at a bargaining chip. Of course I have no intention of actually using my son's situation in that way, but as an opening attempt at a settlement, I'd be happy to let her think that I'm on the fence about setting up a trust, and see if that might sink in.  The consequences of course to her would be that once I start paying c/s, it will more than offset his SSI, which in our state will cause him to lose Medicaid.  She has no assets on her own and her family has no cash (I have family who have offered to help with legal expenses), so she would be faced with trying to get a trust lawyer to agree to wait for division of assets, or else lose several months if not longer of SSI/Medicaid. 

It amounts to a bluff since there is no way I would do that to my child, but before I just offer to do it up front I'm thinking it might make settling look a little more attractive to her.  She lives in the moment to such a degree that it might work, unless her L saw through it and told her to hold out.

[Grey Kitty]

I think the key thing to make the divorce process not be more painful than it needs to be is to not mention it to her until you are certain it is what you will do... .or perhaps until you file!

Then you can talk about the problems with child support.

[livednlearned]

Bargaining chip -- that makes sense. It's a form of leverage, and that's a standard part of negotiation. It's good for us to have leverage when dealing with pwBPD because we are negotiating for things we believe to be reasonable for everyone involved, often including our own ex spouses.

[jedimaster]

I think the key thing to make the divorce process not be more painful than it needs to be is to not mention it to her until you are certain it is what you will do... .or perhaps until you file!

Then you can talk about the problems with child support.

I am doing everything I can not to tip my hand at this point.  I am thinking in terms of not bringing it up until the first offer of settlement, this of course subject to legal advice and assuming everything doesn't go nuclear the moment the "d" word is mentioned.

[livednlearned]

Based on the pattern of conflict in your marriage, what do you think your wife's reaction to you filing for divorce is likely to be? For example, does she have a history of self-harming, or suicidal ideation? Or does she tend to recruit negative advocates and turn them against people she doesn't like? Has she ever made serious false allegations against you in the past?

It's good to piece this together. It won't predict 100%, but it will give you some insight into what to expect.

[jedimaster]

Based on the pattern of conflict in your marriage, what do you think your wife's reaction to you filing for divorce is likely to be? For example, does she have a history of self-harming, or suicidal ideation? Or does she tend to recruit negative advocates and turn them against people she doesn't like? Has she ever made serious false allegations against you in the past?

It's good to piece this together. It won't predict 100%, but it will give you some insight into what to expect.

She does not have a history of self-harming; possibly the only one of the 9 traits she has never exhibited.  In saying that, I am referring to physical self-harm; she has a history of abandoning things or activities which she previously valued, and I sometimes wonder if there is an element of psychological self-harm in that. 

She has never gone so far as to publicly accuse me of any kind of abuse, etc, but in her dysregulations she regularly accuses me falsely of being "out of control" or having anger management issues.  She also claims to have told various people her "truth" about me, but in discreetly checking out some of these stories I have yet to find one substantiated.  What she seems to have done so far is make some mildly negative comment to one of her friends, and if they don't disagree with her, she counts them on her side and the tells me, "So-and-so knows the truth about you; I told them all about how you treat me." 

I'm anticipating she will probably make some attempt at painting me black to our friends, which will likely include some kinds of allegations of abusive behavior.  I'm trying to take steps to mitigate that or at least have a good counter-argument.  I recently started recording some of our conversations (legally; we are a "one-party" state when it comes to recording) and it's pretty obvious which of us tends toward verbal abuse. 

She has exhibited a strong fear of abandonment in numerous conversations and is fearful of being left penniless in case of my death or a divorce.  At this point my tentative strategy will be to lay out a strong financial case for settling and include "carrots" as well as "sticks."  As in, "settle out of court, sell the house, pay off the mortgage, and divide the equity, and not only will I agree to a reasonable alimony and the legally required c/s, I'll pay to have a trust fund set up so you will have all of the c/s and son's SSI to look after him with.  Or, if you want to fight, we'll rack up a ton of legal bills which will eat up both our shares of the marital assets.  In which case I won't have money left to set up a trust, and when I start paying c/s directly, you'll lose his SSI, which will mean less money per month and no Medicaid benefits."

I'm perfectly aware that feelings trump facts for pwBPD, but I'm also aware of my wife's abandonment fears and her general attitude toward money.  And she is fiercely protective of our son, so the trust for him will be a strong attraction.

A lot will depend on her reaction to the initial news and the first offer.  I have an idea which way she'll react, but how strong it will be I don't know.  Sometimes she digs in and fights far beyond any reason, while other times she does the passive-aggressive martyr routine: "I give up; do whatever you want to poor little helpless me."  It's hard to know which one she'll try; could be both.

[livednlearned]

Who she selects as lawyer could also play a big role in the degree of conflict. Some lawyers become "negative advocates" who believe everything their clients say, and will step on the gas pedal. A good lawyer will represent her interests and work with your L to resolve things in the most reasonable and amicable way possible. If there is someone you trust, someone who your wife might trust, who could suggest two or three reasonable attorneys, that could go a long way to minimizing the conflict. It isn't often the case that we have any say in this, but who knows. If your ex has some waif qualities, she might be grateful for suggestions from people. 

I also think her concerns about money are potentially a positive sign. Maybe put together a spreadsheet about anticipated costs if you were to go to trial and have a judge make a ruling, so she has a sense of real numbers. My ex was an impulsive spender, but he was also very worried about finances and trusted my recommendations. He seemed to know that he had a problem, and managed to be mad at me about my efforts to contain his spending while also wanting me to be responsible and set limits.

[Grey Kitty]

She has exhibited a strong fear of abandonment in numerous conversations and is fearful of being left penniless in case of my death or a divorce.  At this point my tentative strategy will be to lay out a strong financial case for settling and include "carrots" as well as "sticks."  As in, "settle out of court, sell the house, pay off the mortgage, and divide the equity, and not only will I agree to a reasonable alimony and the legally required c/s, I'll pay to have a trust fund set up so you will have all of the c/s and son's SSI to look after him with.  Or, if you want to fight, we'll rack up a ton of legal bills which will eat up both our shares of the marital assets.  In which case I won't have money left to set up a trust, and when I start paying c/s directly, you'll lose his SSI, which will mean less money per month and no Medicaid benefits."

Hmmm... .I've got a prediction based on prior behavior question for you related to the above... .

When you stand up for something, how does she negotiate?

Is it either dig in and fight or cave completely?

Or have there been other outcomes?

I ask because from your other posts, her sense of entitlement seems HUGE.

[jedimaster]

Her sense of entitlement is gigantic.  There's a lot of NPD going on as well as BPD. 

The recent issue with the farm might be a useful example.  She spent months fighting me, but when I finally reached a point where I established a boundary, she grudgingly caved and said, "Well do whatever you want."  Which was supposed to cause me to cave in return and say "no, no; I'll take care of things" as I always did in the past.  This time I just said "OK" and proceeded to start selling.

She operates almost completely in black and white terms, so it will be very difficult for her to see any middle ground in any kind of negotiation.  Which is why I want to offer her an either/or option right from the start.  I know that in a normal negotiation you don't tip your hand as to alternatives, but from past experience I know that if I simply lay out some terms and expect her to counter offer, she will assume that is my ultimate position, reject all of it out of hand, offer the most extreme alternative conceivable, and insist on unconditional surrender.  So I think my starting out saying "If you agree to X, I'll agree to Y; but if you don't, then it will cause Z to happen" might come closer to getting her in a negotiable frame of mind.

[jedimaster]

and managed to be mad at me about my efforts to contain his spending while also wanting me to be responsible and set limits.

Exactly.  She rails about me because we have no savings but spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave.  Or she did until recently when I started enforcing some boundaries and put her on an allowance for groceries and household items (her idea, but she acts like I'm a dictator).  She's always saying she's broke but yet always pulls money from some hidey hole for whatever she wants.  I am seeing some signs that she's being a little less impulsive with her money, now that the joint account is no longer a pot to dip her hand into. 

Thanks to getting her hand out of the main till, things are starting to be a little less tight, although I'm careful not to make it sound like there's a lot of money around.  But I had enough to put an extra $100 in her grocery/household money this week.  She wasn't expecting it, and was genuinely surprised.  Didn't say thanks, but at least she didn't act insulted by how much she had, which is the usual reaction.

[jedimaster]

I've located a L and have an appointment next Thursday for an initial consultation.  Have pulled together some basic financials and a synopsis of the situation and am sending that on ahead Monday so he can read it and be thinking about it before the consult.  We will see what he says from there. 

One of the questions I have is at what point can I say "OK, I'm ready; from this point on it's just a matter of making the final decision to go ahead" and start looking for the best time to say "I want out."  I'm sure with our house there's a point of diminishing returns beyond which I could keep staying and spending more money on it but the additional work won't increase the value enough to be worth the trouble.  I'm sure some of that will depend on me and when I'm ready to leave but I also want to get some professional advice on that.  I also need his opinion as to whether I need to plan to dig in and refuse to leave, or will it hurt things for me to move out at some point if it's too intense.  I guess there are some things for which a L actually earns all the money you give them.

[Grey Kitty]

I think this topic has rambled a bit from your original title.

A lawyer can help you accomplish your goals... .if you know what they are. Don't let the tail wag the dog here.

Are you planning for a high conflict divorce which will include support/custody issues for your disabled son (With a trust if applicable)?

Or are you consulting about a special needs trust for your son?

Make sure you are asking the right questions.

[jedimaster]

I think this topic has rambled a bit from your original title.

A lawyer can help you accomplish your goals... .if you know what they are. Don't let the tail wag the dog here.

Are you planning for a high conflict divorce which will include support/custody issues for your disabled son (With a trust if applicable)?

Or are you consulting about a special needs trust for your son?

Make sure you are asking the right questions.

Yes I guess it has rambled a bit (the OP is known for that in real life as well).  

Special needs trusts are on the agenda, as are the other questions related to property, etc.  The L is supposed to have some knowledge/expertise in trusts as well as divorce, and also with high-conflict cases.  He is at a very well-respected law firm in this area so I am hoping he will be able to give me the advice I need. I want to have as many answers nailed down as possible before I tip my hand, in the hopes that I can reduce the chances of being broadsided.  

[formflier]

 

Why not just set it up now.?... if there is a way to do that without her knowing.

If they are revocable... changeable... .then you can change as needed. 

No experience here... just asking the question.

[jedimaster]

Why not just set it up now.?... if there is a way to do that without her knowing.

If they are revocable... changeable... .then you can change as needed. 

No experience here... just asking the question.

Good question!  I'll ask the L when I see him this week.  Thanks--

[jedimaster]

Well I met with the lawyer today and learned some things.  Hopefully these are things that will help this process along.

1.  In our state, a disabled child is only covered by child support laws if there is a support decree in place before they turn 19, in which case they are entitled to child support for life, or the life of the parent paying support.  Since our child is 28 and has never been declared incompetent even though he is intellectually challenged, in the eyes of the court he is an adult and will not be considered in any divorce proceedings.  So it will be up to us to negotiate a satisfactory financial and living arrangement outside the court system.  We can go through the probate court to set up either an individual or joint guardianship, but all this is separate from the divorce.  I want to take the best possible care of him, but it is a relief to know his situation cannot be used against me in a divorce, and any financial care is negotiated, not mandated.

2.  Related to that, if we do agree on a settlement and the settlement includes any kind of support payments or visitation/living arrangements for our son, those become binding.  So my thinking is that I want some kind of baseline arrangements written into the settlement, whether or not we go to court, so I will have some recourse if she becomes difficult in the future.  

3.  We are considered a long term marriage and from the court's perspective we have no minors, so barring any unforeseen circumstances a judge will order the assets sold and proceeds divided equally.  We are free to negotiate something different if we agree to settle out of court.  Half is more than fine with me.

4.  If a contested divorce is filed, the court will order one of us to immediately move out and one to stay and keep up the home.  Otherwise, living arrangements are up to us while we try to negotiate.  If one of us moves out voluntarily and it later goes to court, it will not be held against the person who moved out.

5.  Regarding our partially completed home, the L said use my own judgment and possibly get some real estate advice as to when to wrap up remodeling/construction and put it up for sale.  He said I may as well spend all the money I have set aside for the building fund as anything left will be divided anyway, but beyond that it is up to me.

6.  Since there will be no court-ordered c/s for our son, any money I might agree to give ex for his support is not considered official child support and thus will not count against his SSI as income.  We can lump it in with alimony in the settlement.  Therefore a trust is not necessary to protect his SSI benefits, and we can decide whether or not one is needed for other purposes, such as inheritances.  

7.  The courts have basically seen and heard it all, and allegations of irrational behavior, excessive spending, etc, will not affect the outcome appreciably.  Keep documenting things and protecting myself in case she decides to go off the rails when I decide to tell her, but don't expect it to make much difference in the actual case.  

8.  There are no set guidelines in our state for spousal support.  If we settle out of court it will be whatever we agree on.  If it goes to court anything can happen, however he gave me some ballpark figures based on his experience, my income, and our situation.  Court-ordered alimony could be permanent until remarriage or cohabitation, but it might be possible to negotiate a fixed length of time in a settlement.

So basically the L said to go back home and keep things as normal as possible until I am through with the house and ready to move ahead.  In the meantime take any steps deemed prudent to protect myself; have an exit strategy, emergency funds, etc.  He also said to go ahead and work up a budget based on what I anticipate a post-divorce life might look like, to get some idea of what kind of reasonable offer of alimony I could afford, and to start making a list of terms and conditions for a proposed initial settlement.  Then when the time is right, get back with him and he will help draft the settlement offer, and we can go from there.

Thoughts/comments from those who have been there or are there now are welcome--

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds a lot simpler... .the special needs trust goes away at least as part of the divorce.

Does your wife work at all / have any income? I'm assuming not.

I see two options for you:

1. Negotiate a property division / alimony arrangement with your wife that you can live with. She seems to have a major feeling of entitlement... .so may not bite on anything you can live with!

2. Let the courts make an arrangement.



Obviously you've got lots of time to think about it while you're getting the house 'done'. Figuring out what you are willing to give her / can afford regarding alimony (or CS) is an excellent idea.


You might consider starting negotiations with "I want a divorce." and see how that files. No need to start negotiations on the rest of it until you see where that goes. And no need to tip your hand on the most you can/will give her right off either.

[formflier]

Jedi,

Might want to involve a financial planner. 

As I thought about things some more... .what it seems is that you want to make sure there are funds there to care for the special needs child.

Life insurance, disability and things of that sort need to be considered.

I'm still a fan of setting up the trust early... .

Here is the thing... .what happens if you and your wife both pass away?  Who cares for the special needs child?

The trust needs to be coordinated with your wills.

Lots of legal things need to be coordinated... .this will be more difficult if you wife is p$ssed over a divorce.

I don't remember how high functioning your wife is... .but if I remember... she considered herself a great idea person... .but was a bit short on doing the work herself.

So... I would keep her out this until you have gotten yourself good an educated about it.

Remember to keep your eye on the goal... .to set up a structure to support your special needs child.

[livednlearned]

It's really important to think about leverage in these divorces. If your wife has a big entitlement streak, or has narcissistic tendencies, then try to structure the conflict so that she feels she has won. As odd as that sounds. That might mean holding your cards close and keeping numbers extremely low through a series of negotiations so that you can "lose" by eventually giving her what you think is fair. Chances are she will initially ask for more than what is reasonable, especially if she does not have a good handle on finances or overspends.

Something happens during divorce and people really step on the gas pedal. You may have a good grasp on her behaviors and patterns, and hopefully she won't diverge too much from what you predict she'll do. But in the hands of a negative advocate lawyer, or a mediator who is not skilled, things can get weird. And expensive. And high conflict.

It sounds like you have a good grasp of this. Make sure your lawyer is on the same page. Some of the them (many?) do a lot of back room dealings because they want to have collegial relationships with their colleagues. If you're in a small town, it's likely to be even more that way. I heard my lawyer tell one of her colleagues, "I owe you one for the XYZ case." Part of keeping the conflict low in our cases is making sure the lawyers understand the psychology going on -- it's not quite the same old thing they deal with day in day out.

[ForeverDad]

It's really important to think about leverage in these divorces. If your wife has a big entitlement streak, or has narcissistic tendencies, then try to structure the conflict so that she feels she has won. As odd as that sounds. That might mean holding your cards close and keeping numbers extremely low through a series of negotiations so that you can "lose" by eventually giving her what you think is fair. Chances are she will initially ask for more than what is reasonable, especially if she does not have a good handle on finances or overspends.

Something happens during divorce and people really step on the gas pedal. You may have a good grasp on her behaviors and patterns, and hopefully she won't diverge too much from what you predict she'll do. But in the hands of a negative advocate lawyer, or a mediator who is not skilled, things can get weird. And expensive. And high conflict.

It sounds like you have a good grasp of this. Make sure your lawyer is on the same page. Some of the them (many?) do a lot of back room dealings because they want to have collegial relationships with their colleagues. If you're in a small town, it's likely to be even more that way. I heard my lawyer tell one of her colleagues, "I owe you one for the XYZ case." Part of keeping the conflict low in our cases is making sure the lawyers understand the psychology going on -- it's not quite the same old thing they deal with day in day out.

I agree with the responses, especially this.  If you have any Leverage now, don't let it go too soon and certainly don't Gift it away.  Have strategies where you avoid putting yourself at disadvantage just to be 'nice', if you do then you'll pay big time for it for many years to come.  An entitled, conflictual, disordered spouse will not cooperate with you, "Spouse, just I bought you a car and paid off your student loans, so please let me have ABC and XYZ."  Prior acts of kindness and consideration have a high risk, if not near certainty, of not being reciprocated later.  Since a disordered person has a distorted sense of self, it basically becomes about him/her, his/her feelings, moods and perspective.  You may get a Mask of Near Normalcy for the public posturing and a lot of guilting used against you -- our FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt that is used against us -- but don't count on Reciprocation.

As for the lawyers, they almost always assume it will be simpler than it turns out to be.  In your case, the lawyer may think, "Surely she will be reasonable for the sake of your child."  Sorry, high risk of that quickly going down the drain.  For example, in my case, divorce with a child, my lawyer estimated 7 to 9 months.  It turned into 23.5 months plus the initial months of separation.

While you can hope for the best, you must prepare, plan and strategize for the worst.  Better to have strategies and leverage and not need them than to need strategies and leverage and not have them.

[jedimaster]

It's really important to think about leverage in these divorces. If your wife has a big entitlement streak, or has narcissistic tendencies, then try to structure the conflict so that she feels she has won. As odd as that sounds. That might mean holding your cards close and keeping numbers extremely low through a series of negotiations so that you can "lose" by eventually giving her what you think is fair. Chances are she will initially ask for more than what is reasonable, especially if she does not have a good handle on finances or overspends.

Something happens during divorce and people really step on the gas pedal. You may have a good grasp on her behaviors and patterns, and hopefully she won't diverge too much from what you predict she'll do. But in the hands of a negative advocate lawyer, or a mediator who is not skilled, things can get weird. And expensive. And high conflict.

It sounds like you have a good grasp of this. Make sure your lawyer is on the same page. Some of the them (many?) do a lot of back room dealings because they want to have collegial relationships with their colleagues. If you're in a small town, it's likely to be even more that way. I heard my lawyer tell one of her colleagues, "I owe you one for the XYZ case." Part of keeping the conflict low in our cases is making sure the lawyers understand the psychology going on -- it's not quite the same old thing they deal with day in day out.

I agree with the responses, especially this.  If you have any Leverage now, don't let it go too soon and certainly don't Gift it away.  Have strategies where you avoid putting yourself at disadvantage just to be 'nice', if you do then you'll pay big time for it for many years to come.  An entitled, conflictual, disordered spouse will not cooperate with you, "Spouse, just I bought you a car and paid off your student loans, so please let me have ABC and XYZ."  Prior acts of kindness and consideration have a high risk, if not near certainty, of not being reciprocated later.  Since a disordered person has a distorted sense of self, it basically becomes about him/her, his/her feelings, moods and perspective.  You may get a Mask of Near Normalcy for the public posturing and a lot of guilting used against you -- our FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt that is used against us -- but don't count on Reciprocation.

As for the lawyers, they almost always assume it will be simpler than it turns out to be.  In your case, the lawyer may think, "Surely she will be reasonable for the sake of your child."  Sorry, high risk of that quickly going down the drain.  For example, in my case, divorce with a child, my lawyer estimated 7 to 9 months.  It turned into 23.5 months plus the initial months of separation.

While you can hope for the best, you must prepare, plan and strategize for the worst.  Better to have strategies and leverage and not need them than to need strategies and leverage and not have them.

Understood, and that is exactly what I am planning for.  I will continue the preparations for the worst while hoping for the best.  I literally have no idea how she will react when it all goes down.  She could dig in and fight to the end, or play the waif/martyr and try to paint it as the evil bully husband abandoning her and forcing her into a humiliating divorce settlement--"look at what he did to poor pitiful me."  She has a history of both behaviors, and right now I'd guess the odds at 50/50.  If she chooses the second one I'll be thrilled.  I'll be only too happy to give her a fair settlement, which to her will be devastatingly inadequate, and let her do/say anything she wants to anybody she wants, as long as I'm out.

My L is from a respected, long-established firm and he is familiar with high-conflict personalities.  I'm sure he's trying to be optimistic (as am I) but we are aware of the possibilities and potential pitfalls.  We are proceeding on the "hope for the best; prepare for the worst" mentality.  I was just encouraged to find out that a couple of areas where I thought some difficulties might lie are not as complicated as they seemed.  I guess that's one reason we pay lawyers.

[jedimaster]

Jedi,

Might want to involve a financial planner. 

As I thought about things some more... .what it seems is that you want to make sure there are funds there to care for the special needs child.

Life insurance, disability and things of that sort need to be considered.

I'm still a fan of setting up the trust early... .

Here is the thing... .what happens if you and your wife both pass away?  Who cares for the special needs child?

The trust needs to be coordinated with your wills.

Lots of legal things need to be coordinated... .this will be more difficult if you wife is p$ssed over a divorce.

I don't remember how high functioning your wife is... .but if I remember... she considered herself a great idea person... .but was a bit short on doing the work herself.

So... I would keep her out this until you have gotten yourself good an educated about it.

Remember to keep your eye on the goal... .to set up a structure to support your special needs child.

From what I understand there are a couple of nuances of these trusts.  One is geared towards allowing c/s to be paid without jeopardizing a disabled child's SSI or Medicaid.  The other is a "third party trust," which allows grandparents, etc, to place money in trust for the disabled person for their care, again without being counted as assets against their benefits.  I agree with you and I will be looking at the second kind of trust, probably with my parents who are still living.  They may wish to help set up a trust and direct any inheritance left for my son to go to the trust.  Once the trust is established, I can do the same with my own life insurance, etc, and his mother can even do the same if she is willing.

What I was relieved to find out is that we will not need the first kind of trust, since there will be no court-ordered c/s.  A third-party trust can be set up with or without my wife's cooperation.

[formflier]

 

I get it there is not any mandatory court ordered c/s... .but you guys can both still agree to this... correct?

The nice thing about trusts is that usually there are some rules about what the money can be spent on... .as opposed to just the whims of one party.

[jedimaster]

I get it there is not any mandatory court ordered c/s... .but you guys can both still agree to this... correct?

The nice thing about trusts is that usually there are some rules about what the money can be spent on... .as opposed to just the whims of one party.

Yes and I plan to offer an amount in my initial settlement proposal.  I talked with my parents and we are going to continue to look at the trust as they are interested in the potential of using one to direct some of their estate for their grandson.