Gender roles and how they affect a r/s with pwBPD traits

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Below is a link to what go this started... .there is a very open, honest, healthy exchange between several men and women about how they see gender roles affecting them now.  The gender roles they saw growing up, and the roles that have evolved in their current r/s as BPD traits have emerged.  So... please read the link below for some history... and jump right into the discussion. 

It's mainly about me and how my r/s has evolved... don't be afraid to start a rabbit trail... .we can always split it off into a new thread if needed.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240677.50;topicseen

[formflier]

Below is a link to what go this started... .there is a very open, honest, healthy exchange between several men and women about how they see gender roles affecting them now.  The gender roles they saw growing up, and the roles that have evolved in their current r/s as BPD traits have emerged.  So... please read the link below for some history... and jump right into the discussion. 

It's mainly about me and how my r/s has evolved... don't be afraid to start a rabbit trail... .we can always split it off into a new thread if needed.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240677.50;topicseen

[formflier]

 

Notwendy, VOC, and others... .welcome back... .let's keep the discussion going.

I really value the input on what you guys see in my r/s and in the way I present it.  It's good to get to know each other and "our stories".  When I think some of your comments are "off based" or wrong... .it is usually because I have left out information... .once I go back and read my post... and read your comments.

there is no right or wrong here... just perception.  So... .in my next post... .I'll try to give some info that might "clarify" a bit.

However... .most of your perceptions and observations are accurate... .or close enough.

[formflier]

 

Brief catch up:

Yes... my wife and I chose a traditional marriage.  She is college educated (actually a teacher).  We planned to have dual careers and she would take kids to her work... most schools have some kind of child care arrangement.

Once we got home with out first child and it was getting close to time for her to go back to work... .she was working full time as a teacher while pregnant... .we discussed options.  She was distressed about "someone else raising her child"

Our minds were totally together on this.  Holding my first child wiped away many of my foolish thoughts about "the way" things would be done... that I held prior to being a father.  I told her that I couldn't imagine anyone else doing a better job raising and educating our child than her.  That I would make any sacrifice needed to have the best for her and our children. We decided that she would be a stay at home mom and I would be sole breadwinner. 

We chose a smaller house, let our cars get older before replacing... .basically... .we adjusted.  The children and family thrived.  She home schooled for several years because public schools were not so hot in those areas.  First kid went to public school in 5th grade.  School was suspicious of home schoolers... .until he blew the top out of the testing they gave him.  Same for younger kids.  He missed getting a perfect score on ACT by 1 point. 

Anyway... .my wife did wonderfully up until there was a natural disaster (flood) that kept us out of our house for about 6 months.  We lived with another family... huge house... .it was a blessing.  Until... as we moved out of the house to go back home my wife started accusing me of desiring... or wanting the other wife. 

To be clear... .I did not want her desire her... .in fact my true feelings were that I wished the other guy luck (so to speak) with her.  Also to be clear... .I've been faithful to my wife.  I'm an honorable man... Christian... my wedding vows are literal.  And... .with deeply personal things like this... .they can be "hot buttons" for nons.  pwBPD traits like to "push" those buttons.

I handled it badly.  The more I tried to "prove" I loved my wife... .and didn't love the other woman... I actually invalidated her bigtime.

I won't tell all my stories... .but imagine that for about 4 years... .after BPD symptoms and traits appear... .if you did exactly the wrong thing... .and kept "helping" make your SO worse.  That's pretty much what I did... I didn't know any better... .

So... I stopped counting after 50 some accusations of (some very detailed) about the affairs I had (allegedly).  The worst... .well... .my wife identified a baby that was mine that I had been hiding from her.  I had a paternity test set up.  It would be double blind.  So... .I would get tested and would have one of my younger kids tested.  This would validate that the tests were accurate and could be trusted.  Then my this other child would be brought in and tested... .and I believed I would be free from this accusation.

When I revealed the plan to my wife... she denied ever saying the child was mine (had done this for weeks... maybe months) and said even if it wasn't my child... .I was still sleeping with the woman.  You guys can fill in the nuclear argument that went on after this.

One more "story".  We have several rental and investment properties... .for years did very well with this.  Wife was big help... .as were kids.  Made up for my  single income.  This feel apart gradually... .with the crowing achievement being that my wife claimed I owned a secret house that she didn't know about... .but had proof of.  The tenant was basically one of my ho's.

She brought this up many times... I demanded the proof... .she never showed it.  It was talked about heavily in two MC sessions... .she gave her word to bring in proof...   I brought my side of the agreement... .she didn't produce her side.  I think my side was to bring in proof of plane tickets that I was at a location I had claimed to be at... during a certain period... .she was supposed to bring her "proof" of the secret house.

So. the MC session where she said she was breaking the agreement and keeping the proof away from me... was the session before (1 week before)... .she had a massive dysregulation in session.  Stomped around and ran out.  I stayed and hear about BPD for the first time ever.

Looking back... .I can see "hints"... .some in her family are medium to low functioning... .most are pretty high functioning.  You have to be in the "circle" to get it.

Whew... I'll hush for now... .but just wanted to give some background...

Sorry it got long... most of these stories are convoluted... .

And for any newbies here... .I don't recommend using the tactics in my story... .they are pre BPD family

[vortex of confusion]

I am so glad you started this thread FF!

I wanted to comment on this from the other thread. Edgewood said:

Maybe it’s just me, but I see so much gender expectation in your posts.  It makes me sad for both of you.  You say that you want to co-parent, but is that really what you’re doing?  Several times, you have mentioned that you “help” or are “helpful” to your wife.  Do you see the difference between a helper and a partner?  A helper assists someone with THEIR work; partners perform SHARED work.  Do you see how that outlook shifts the responsibility? With a partner, she's not in it alone; the load isn't all on her shoulders.

I agree with you about the difference between a helper and a partner. In my case, I feel like there are pretty traditional gender roles. Like FF, my husband and I decided together that I would be the stay at home parent. I have a master's degree and I do work part time but most of the roles in our house are pretty traditional. The problem that I have is that in order for there to be a true partnership, both partners need to take responsibility for their side of things. If one partner agrees that mowing the lawn is his domain, then it seems reasonable to expect that person to take care of it in a reasonable fashion. The problem that I have had is when I try to "help" my husband with something that he has claimed as his, he feels invalidated by it.

To go back to the question of "Why didn't FF get up and take the 2 year old to the room?" I don't know if this is the case in FF's situation but in my situation there are times when issues like this come up and I will stop myself and weigh the pros and cons of doing it myself versus asking my spouse to do it. If I get up and do it myself rather than ask him to do it, then he might see it as a power struggle. Or, he could see it as me invalidating him because he sees it as me thinking he is incapable of doing it. An example that comes up is the time that he said he wanted me to change the cat boxes now that I am not nursing or pregnant. So, I followed through with my part of the agreement and changed the cat boxes. What did he do? He tried to block my way and got pizzy with me. I was confused as heck because I was doing what he had asked me to do. He didn't see it as that. He saw it as me thinking that he was incapable.

In a "normal" relationship, none of this would even be an issue. A kid came in, you flipped a coin as to who was going to take care of it, it got done, and everybody goes on with their life. No muss, no fuss.

[Notwendy]

FF asked me what happened when I tried to explain something to my H and it activated his feeling invalidated, threatened, rejected, criticized feelings. I sensed he was upset ( or it was obvious) and so I kept on explaining and trying to make him understand but as you know, that was gasoline on the fire.

What do I do now? I really don't say much at all, because it doesn't work. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting it to be different. Every once in a while we seem normal enough for me to connect, but then, if I think it is safe to say something that he isn't comfortable with, I learn. I can't think of a time that I didn't regret saying something. I used to WOE so not to upset him. Now, I don't want to hurt myself.

Once in a while, I am surprised. Out of the blue, he helped me clean up the house after the holidays. I have no idea why. I don't wonder anymore. I am actually focused more on me than him, but it helps to learn about him as I have been able to reframe things that hurt me in the past and know it was not about me. Learning about male BPD is recent. I thought BPD was what my mom did. I didn't realize men could have it too. It helps to read and learn more from this board, and to share stories and know I am not alone. Thinking in the terms that he may have BPD or traits ( the shoe fits pretty well) is both sad and in a way liberating. Sad because I am old enough to have observed it over much of my parents' marriage and I know how serious and hard to change it is. Liberating because I know I can't fix it so I don't spend my time trying and can focus on my own recovery. I can stop putting so much energy in focusing on his happiness instead of mine.

Cheating would violate my own ethical code. Never did it, don't want to and never even seriously considered it. I'd choose my H over any other people I know in my life, and heaven knows, I have enough of my own craziness to deal with. In many ways, he is a wonderful person and we are both devoted to our family. I haven't ever given him any reason to imagine cheating. However, he has gotten extremely jealous of the few times I met old childhood friends- always in the family context, and rarely because they live far away because he picks up on the affection I have for them, like a brother which is sad for me to deal with this. He is also jealous of things that make me happy- hobbies, interests. Admiring a good looking actor on TV can upset him, although he notices pretty actresses. I really don't care that he does. Sometimes I catch him looking and kid him. They are stars because they are attractive and they are not a threat to real life relationships.

[formflier]

 

About the taking kid back thing... .

A "theme" in our r/s that I am trying to get better is to get rid of the "i should have known" argument.

The pattern is that I ask for information... .she dances around... .withholds... .answers rhetorically... but there is nothing usable there.  So... .I act.  In her opinion... .I should have known better... ."why didn't you "just" do xyz... then I would have been happy... .you wouldn't have caused me to yell... .etc etc... ."

So... .

Kid comes in... .I "suggest" that  one of our other kids watch the youngest one... .(very careful to not "direct"

I'd have to go back and look at my posts... .but there was some non answer... .if I remember right it was something about her being tired.

I said I realized that... but I thought that the childs "clock" needed to be reset... and keeping child up would be best.  Followed by do you want to reset the child's clock. 

Silence...

Again... .no attempt to word for word this...

Anyway... .I let some time pass... .asked again... .

Probably asked 3-4 times... .when she was agitated and said can't we talk about this later.  I said I would be happy to talk later... .we snuggled for 5 minutes or so... I gave her peck on cheek and said I was going to try and get some things done... and went about my day.

Later that day... she alleged she had given a clear answer... .

Then she gave hug and clearly... directed... apologized and said she did want to reset the babies clock.

Youngest two were up much earlier this morning... wife and I both participated in making this happen.

So... .you can see why the apology and the clear answer was such a big deal... .also big deal that actions matched the statement yesterday.  Big deal

[formflier]

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting it to be different. 

So... .the key is... to do something different... .to keep trying.  But do "one change at at time"... .implement one tool at a time and see how this changes things... .

Once you are convinced it is good thing... keep it going... .make it part of the new normal.

Each TLC... .is a small change in the right direction.

String together a bunch of them... .and now you have a different r/s.  Occasionally you have a big breakthrough... .that you can really hang you hat on... .

So... .my encouragement is to keep talking... .keep trying... .just make sure you try something different... .and that you have applied tools to your choices of what you say.

 

[formflier]

FF asked me what happened when I tried to explain something to my H and it activated his feeling invalidated, threatened, rejected, criticized feelings. I sensed he was upset ( or it was obvious) and so I kept on explaining and trying to make him understand but as you know, that was gasoline on the fire.

So... .now... .I would recommend focusing on validation.  SET.  In my rs it usually looks like SET  SE  SE  SE  SET.  

Then... .make an exit... .don't stay till they get completely calm.  

Come back in a bit... .10 minutes... and check... .repeat cycle... SET  SE SE SET.

repeat cycle.

[vortex of confusion]

I haven't ever given him any reason to imagine cheating.

The problem with somebody that has a mental illness is that I don't have to give my husband reasons to think/feel something that is completely out in left field. He can interpret something in a way that is so far afield that I don't have any idea how he got to that point. Also, something I have experienced is struggling with the whole analyzing things to death trying to figure out how I gave my husband a reason to think or imagine something.

Some people with BPD can interpret smiling at a check out clerk as wanting to get with them and then turn that into "You are cheating." I haven't had that happen to me but I had an instance once where I tried to tell my husband that I don't feel like a priority to him because he doesn't follow through. It was a long conversation and I was trying to share my feelings. Somehow, he managed to take over the conversation and then say everything back to me. Suddenly, I wasn't making him feel special. So, in a very logical fashion, I started enumerating all of the things that I have done and continue to do for him. (Probably not the best approach but that is what I did.) Anyway, his response was, "But you are nice to everyone." I walked away from that conversation a bit stunned. How big of a jerk do I have to be to other people to make him feel special?

[MaroonLiquid]

The more I tried to "prove" I loved my wife... .

     Boy does this sound familiar... .Wife and I have been married four and a half years and like FF, have a traditional marriage and were co-pastors of our church.  I wish I had found out about BPD long ago.

     When my wife and I got together, she urged me to go back to school to do what I loved.  Since then, I have worked full time and been going to school part time for 2 years.  We agreed that I would transfer to the college I have always dreamed of graduating from next January and because she works "remotely", she/we can pick up and move anywhere as long as we have an internet connection.  We agreed that once we got there I would work part time and go to school full time to finish.  The closer it has gotten to me actually transferring, she has gotten worse and then she separated.

     She has accused me of cheating several times in five years, but once (during our separation) to other people.  I have never thought about cheating on her.

[Notwendy]

FF, thanks for the advice about trying something different.

Our T says this to us too- to both of us although I had assumed she meant both of us. Maybe it is to each of us, whichever one will try it.

Sometimes I just get tired. I'm kinda still recovering from the last rage about something he thought I did but I didn't really do. However, a breakthrough from that one is that it was so far off base, that I knew it was not about me and so I don't take them personally and can react differently ( walk away instead of explaining)

[formflier]

Some people with BPD can interpret smiling at a check out clerk as wanting to get with them and then turn that into "You are cheating." 

Sort of happened to me a couple times.

Once... .she "caught" me at McDonalds using the internet.  It was out at our house... .I was able to work remotely sometimes... .as long as I had cell phone and internet.  So... .I went and found internet.

She came to McDs and when she walked in apparently one of the girls behind the counter turned suddenly and got something from a storage closet or something (I didn't see it)

Anyway... ."the girl was hiding from her... .because of the r/s with me... .and my wife demanded to know why the girl hid.  This used to be a thing... .where I was responsible for the behavior... .and explaining the behavior... of others.

Anyway... .I suggested she go ask her... refusal.  Said I would go up with her... .refusal.  Let this play out for a while until a nuke goes off... .you will get the picture.

Of course... it was all my fault... "If I had "just" said this... ."

[vortex of confusion]

The pattern is that I ask for information... .she dances around... .withholds... .answers rhetorically... but there is nothing usable there.  So... .I act.  In her opinion... .I should have known better... ."why didn't you "just" do xyz... then I would have been happy... .you wouldn't have caused me to yell... .etc etc... ."

I was rereading this thread and this stood out at me because I have used the "Why didn't you know this?" question on my husband before. When I use it it on him, it is because I think that I have addressed the issue before. I know there have been times when I have clearly stated what I wanted yet he didn't follow through. So I find myself saying, "Why didn't you just do xyz?" I am basing that on the fact that I think that I have been pretty clear about the fact that I want him to do xyz. It was something that we clearly agreed upon. Or so I thought.

Now I am going to flip that around and point out an example from when he thought he had told me something but I missed it. I asked him about checking in with me and he said he already did. I was perplexed because I didn't recall him doing it at all. Then, he went on to tell me when he did it. I was, "Um, okay, but I didn't know that is what you were doing. In the future, it would be helpful if you could be more explicit about what you are doing." Both of us were clearly frustrated because we had both perceived the situation completely differently.

I know a couple of people have mentioned that men and women tend to communicate differently. I am brought back to the question of "What role, if any, does gender play in all of this?" I ask because from where I sit, I can usually relate to how men communicate because I grew up hanging out with my dad. When it comes to communication and being emotional, the gender roles are reversed between me and my husband. He tends to communicate in ways that are seen as more traditionally female and I tend to communicate in ways that are typically associated with males. I would really like to hear some more thoughts about the gender connection in all of this.

When my husband and I agree to do certain things, gender is rarely an issue. Our individual abilities and desires are usually the standard rather than some predefined gender role. But, I do see where he tends to exhibit a lot of the behaviors that his dad displayed, which are: checked out and let the wife take care of everything. I have tried at different times to get him to see that I am NOT his mom and he is NOT his dad. Not sure if it help or hurt but at least seeing the patterns and similarities helped me to understand some parts of his behavior. His mother has used the "he is just like his dad" to excuse his behavior in the past.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Advice first:  I try to stay away from "why"... .sounds like a courtroom.  "Help me understand... ." is the new thing... .seems to be working.

Anyway... .not sure if this is gender or not. 

Most guys... .me included... .seem to want to focus on what "was done"

Most gals... .it appears you are in that group... .like to focus on "what didn't happen"

Boy... .I hope I didn't use too broad a brush there... .I'd hate for a big group of angry women to come after me with "torches and pitchforks"... ."get the formflier... ."   

Anyway... .in my mind... I only want to be held accountable and explain the choices I made... .I have reasons for choices I made... ."commissions".

I hate being held accountable for "omissions"... .things I didn't do... .because there are an infinite number of reasons... "why I didn't do something".  I would rather focus on what I chose to do during the period of time my wife is upset about something "i didn't do"

Boy... .I hope this is making sense...

When I talk to my wife about family dinners "not happening"... .I try to focus more on how she came to make the decision to send kids away to grandma's... .because that was what she chose to do... .the result of that choice was that "my thing" didn't get done.

Is this a gender difference?  How long before the mob shows up?   

I'm going to hush now... because I may not have made a lick of sense... .

[vortex of confusion]

Advice first:  I try to stay away from "why"... .sounds like a courtroom.  "Help me understand... ." is the new thing... .seems to be working.

I'll try to keep that in mind. I know that I have started couching things as, "I am trying to figure this out." after the initial, "Why in the world did you do THAT?"

Anyway... .not sure if this is gender or not. 

Most guys... .me included... .seem to want to focus on what "was done"

Most gals... .it appears you are in that group... .like to focus on "what didn't happen"

Hmmm. . .I am not sure that I follow you on this one. The smart alleck in me wants to say that guys focus on what was done cause us women tend to do so many things that upset you guys and the women focus on what didn't happen because guys rarely do what they are supposed to do.  (Maybe I should run away now!)

In reading your posts, I am not really seeing you focus on "what was done". In the posts about the family dinner and the morning incident with the 2 year old, it came across as you focusing on the fact that she didn't give you a clear answer and a family dinner didn't happen. That may not have been the focus in real life but that is how it came across to me when reading your posts.

Anyway... .in my mind... I only want to be held accountable and explain the choices I made... .I have reasons for choices I made... ."commissions".

I hate being held accountable for "omissions"... .things I didn't do... .because there are an infinite number of reasons... "why I didn't do something".  I would rather focus on what I chose to do during the period of time my wife is upset about something "i didn't do"

I have a vague thought that I am going to throw out here. Why isn't it possible to be held accountable for both? I am thinking of the example of when I used to ask my husband way back in the early days of our marriage: "Why did you choose to look at porn instead of being with me?" In my mind, I am asking about both at the same time. He chose porn. He didn't choose me." More recently, I have asked him, "Why do you choose to play computer games instead of hanging out with me and the kids?" I realize that I should probably figure out how to rephrase some of my questions and reconsider how I approach some things with him.

In my mind, I kind of want to know about the omissions as well as the commissions. But, I am thinking along the lines of "he didn't empty the dishwasher". Either way, it is about lack of follow through whether he is following through about doing something or NOT doing something.

When I talk to my wife about family dinners "not happening"... .I try to focus more on how she came to make the decision to send kids away to grandma's... .because that was what she chose to do... .the result of that choice was that "my thing" didn't get done.

Hmmm. . .another vague meandering thought. . .if we are supposed to be focusing on ourselves and what we want, how is focusing on understanding how she came to make the decision to send the kids to grandma helping you get what you want? Are you letting her off the hook and, in a round about way, using that as an excuse to not take the bull by the horns and be more proactive in getting what you want?

[formflier]

  Why isn't it possible to be held accountable for both?

I'm ok with that... .as long as you also get the benefits for both.  With positive choices... .it's easier.

I made a choice to bring home flowers... .good result.  I made a choice to not pay a bill... I get a late fee... .wife is upset.  again... I'm all good with that line of thinking.

If wife wants to focus on me not bringing her flowers... .and is ignoring the choice I made to go do something else positive for her... .such as get her a card... .but she focuses on what "didn't happen".  That is unreasonable... .IMO

I'm not good at getting rhetorical... .so this may devolve quickly... .try to hang with me.

If you are going to hold me accountable for what I didn't do... .then I should also be able to be praised for what I didn't do.

Otherwise... .it seems an incredibly unfair standard... .one where there is only a downside.  And... .it is frustrating to both sides because there are an infinite number of things that you "didn't do"... whereas if you focus on what actually happened... that is a finite set of things to consider.

So... .after discussing this in early marriage counseling... .my wife was supposed to praise me first... .then grouch at me.

It never really sunk in... .IMO because she wanted to praise for what I did... .but grouch at what I failed to do. 

To keep it an even and consistent thought... .she should have praised me for not murdering anyone, for not cheating on my taxes... .etc etc... .and then griped about not bringing flowers.

Most likely I just weirded everyone out there

Anyway... .it makes sense to me.

Hmmm. . .another vague meandering thought. . .if we are supposed to be focusing on ourselves and what we want, how is focusing on understanding how she came to make the decision to send the kids to grandma helping you get what you want? Are you letting her off the hook and, in a round about way, using that as an excuse to not take the bull by the horns and be more proactive in getting what you want?

Because she was the one to make that decision... .I was not even allowed to be aware that this was even on the agenda.  Lots of times she will bring things up for discussion... .the few times she "forgets"... .it seems to undue commitments we have made to each other... or her to me. 

It's actually normal for her to ask if we should send'em over there... .rare that she doesn't ask.  I was in the house.

More later... .keep up the discussion.  I don't think I answered all the questions

[formflier]

 

I'm fine with "instead of questions".

This assumes the premise of the question is accurate.

I get hit with lots of questions with a premise... .so... in your format... I would experience... ."why did you attack me instead of loving me the other night... ?"

The premise... .assumptions... jump out at you.

Hard to combat that without invalidating... .

[Notwendy]

My H gets angry at me for what I should have done that he never said anything about but I should have known that anyway. Take this into the bedroom and you can imagine it really is demoralizing to think that your H isn't happy with you physically. 

No matter how often we had sex, one night off was "never". If we did X one night, then he was upset because I didn't do Y. Once he refused to touch or kiss me for weeks. He told me the sex was boring, I wasn't doing something enough, even if we did it yesterday. It was insanity. I ended up keeping a record of what we did on a calendar so I wouldn't think I was losing my mind because everything was "you never".

I'm not a prude, but I was your basic traditional girl who just wanted a loving marriage with one man, for the rest of our lives. It completely broke just about every bit of heart and soul I could have for him, to think that my husband could not be happy with me in that way. We still have a physical life, but I can't be invested in it emotionally like I was. It was just to hurtful to be.

[vortex of confusion]

If wife wants to focus on me not bringing her flowers... .and is ignoring the choice I made to go do something else positive for her... .such as get her a card... .but she focuses on what "didn't happen".  That is unreasonable... .IMO

I am going to play devil's advocate for a second. Yes, you have done something positive for her. That is great and wonderful IF both options are fairly equal meaning that you know she likes cards as much as she likes flowers. If you know she HATES cards but LOVES flowers then I think the example breaks down. It is about knowing YOUR individual spouse. And, the other factor is whether or not you told her that you were going to do something nice for her. If you told her, "I am going to bring you flowers" and then didn't, then, yeah, I can see why there might be a problem. But, if you surprised her with something that was completely unexpected that you know she likes then it is absolutely unreasonable.

I'm not good at getting rhetorical... .so this may devolve quickly... .try to hang with me.

If you are going to hold me accountable for what I didn't do... .then I should also be able to be praised for what I didn't do.

Otherwise... .it seems an incredibly unfair standard... .one where there is only a downside.  And... .it is frustrating to both sides because there are an infinite number of things that you "didn't do"... whereas if you focus on what actually happened... that is a finite set of things to consider.

So... .after discussing this in early marriage counseling... .my wife was supposed to praise me first... .then grouch at me.

It never really sunk in... .IMO because she wanted to praise for what I did... .but grouch at what I failed to do. 

To keep it an even and consistent thought... .she should have praised me for not murdering anyone, for not cheating on my taxes... .etc etc... .and then griped about not bringing flowers.

I am thinking that this scenario might break down a bit when you throw out the question: ":)id my wife specifically ask for these things?"

I seriously doubt that anybody is going to specifically ask their wife NOT to murder anyone because there is an underlying assumption that it isn't going to happen. The underlying assumption is that nobody has to be asked not to murder because it is clear that it is WRONG.

And, I think I may have talked myself into seeing how this scenario could have something to do with gender roles. If your wife never specifically asked for flowers, then perhaps she is working under the assumption that all women like flowers. How could you not know that all women like flowers more than cards? As a result, you are being held accountable for a gender stereotype. Hmmmm. . . .Does that make any sense at all? I know that my husband has done things for me based on female stereotypes and societal gender roles rather than looking at ME as a person. If I fit the generalization, things might be much better.

Because she was the one to make that decision... .I was not even allowed to be aware that this was even on the agenda.  Lots of times she will bring things up for discussion... .the few times she "forgets"... .it seems to undue commitments we have made to each other... or her to me. 

Do you guys have a family calendar where people can put upcoming stuff on the calendar to remind everyone of all of the upcoming commitments? I know I have made lists, written stuff on calendars, and sent follow up emails to my husband about stuff.

[formflier]

 

Yes... .she likes both cards and flower... .and she doesn't ask for them.  She likes to be surprised... .she really does.  I regularly  (but not on a schedule) do both for her.  I never know when it is going to cause an issue.  Most likely when she "feels" I hate her... .and I demonstrate to her that I don't... .it invalidates... .and something silly comes out where she complains that something else wasn't done for her...

There have been other times when I think a gift "snapped her out of it... "

I should have explained more about being held to a standard for not doing things... .usually (this was past... pre me knowing about BPD)... .when she would complain about not getting things... or getting wrong things... the argument would continue... .this forced her to continue upping the ante... .so... lack of flowers meant I was no good... .a cheat... a liar... a scoundrel... you fill in the blank... .Essentially... .now she was saying I was morally bankrupt... .

That's were the tie is for wanting to be praised for not actually cheating, murdering stealing... .etc etc.

Yes... .we have calendar... .she is touchy about it.  If she puts stuff on there... it's gold... if I want to put stuff on their... very hit or miss if it gets on there.  If I write on the calendar... .dude... .  That is an issue to eventually deal with.  I think it has to do with a her stuff... .my stuff thing in her head.  Who knows... ?

[Notwendy]

I'm wondering about executive function with all the forgetting. I had a large family calendar on the wall where I wrote down what was going on. Still, my H's favorite reason for forgetting was " you never told me" to which I would say "yes I did" then " you didn't say it right" or "you should have left a message at the office" or whatever.

Your wife may be doing the best she can with everything going on in the house. Also, family cultures are different. My FOO was chaotic, H's with military precision. I am fairly structured, but not rigid, so this felt uncomfortable for my H as it wasn't as structured as his was.

[formflier]

I'm wondering about executive function with all the forgetting. 

Interesting... .can you elaborate more on this... .

I would express it a different way.  I'm a very procedural guy.  I like habits.  I scored high on OCD tests... meaning I have those tendencies.  I was that way before I joined military... .Naval Aviation kicked that into over drive.  Because most of the habits are "written in blood"... .there is a reason you look left first... .then look right... .then look left again... before pulling out into the landing area... .(and bazillion more "rules" like this)

My wife is not a procedural person... .that's not a value statement about her worth as a person... but she would not thrive in the same environment that I thrive in.  She is creative... .but "on time" is usually not an issue that she worries about... .

Her family is chaotic... .mine is not.  Naval Aviation is controlled chaos... .  She generally doesn't like my efforts to control chaos at home... .but she will also acknowledge that all 8 can't "run amok" around the house. 

There are some things she "always" forgets.  Cell phones... constantly lost.  I've given up trying to help there. 

I used to get berated all the time for not answering when she called... .yet when I would call her... .her phone was almost always lost...  

Again... keep talking about executive function and where your thoughts are headed... .I'm interested... .

[Notwendy]

Executive function is that part of thinking that enables someone to plan out a task- from point A to point B. It can be separated from intelligence. Executive function difficulties are common with people with emotional or learning issues such as ADD. A student with ADD might benefit from having a school project broken down into steps instead of being assigned the whole thing. It would be like saying "buy some paint, brushes,  tape, put the drop cloths down and then paint the wall" instead of "paint the wall" assuming the person would do all the steps.

You might say " I want family dinner night" and your wife might agree, then send the kids to grandma because she doesn't connect that to family night. Maybe something like " I would like all the kids to be here and not go somewhere else so that we can have family night" would connect them.

I have read that pwBPD can have executive function problems. Also they might be forgetful if they are constantly "in their heads" with their feelings. My mom is very smart, but has a hard time with executive function.

[vortex of confusion]

Executive function is that part of thinking that enables someone to plan out a task- from point A to point B. It can be separated from intelligence. Executive function difficulties are common with people with emotional or learning issues such as ADD. A student with ADD might benefit from having a school project broken down into steps instead of being assigned the whole thing. It would be like saying "buy some paint, brushes,  tape, put the drop cloths down and then paint the wall" instead of "paint the wall" assuming the person would do all the steps.

Oh my goodness! Thank you for bringing this up Notwendy! That makes so much sense and explains so much. My husband needs things spelled out for him. He needs things to be very, very specific. And he is unable to see the big picture in so many things. He can't seem to connect dots that seem so obvious to me. A lot of times, I have to help him connect the dots.

[Jack_50]

Executive function is that part of thinking that enables someone to plan out a task- from point A to point B. It can be separated from intelligence. Executive function difficulties are common with people with emotional or learning issues such as ADD. A student with ADD might benefit from having a school project broken down into steps instead of being assigned the whole thing. It would be like saying "buy some paint, brushes,  tape, put the drop cloths down and then paint the wall" instead of "paint the wall" assuming the person would do all the steps.

Oh my goodness! Thank you for bringing this up Notwendy! That makes so much sense and explains so much. My husband needs things spelled out for him. He needs things to be very, very specific. And he is unable to see the big picture in so many things. He can't seem to connect dots that seem so obvious to me. A lot of times, I have to help him connect the dots.

Hi all,

I'm also on shaky grounds at home if my wife asks me to do something that I haven't done before.  Just because it's not my territory/habit/experience.  And a few years ago (before depression), I had very low self-esteem, making me expect to screw up even before I got started with anything.  But, a big factor here is that my wife is extremely critical if anything is not done the way she wants it done; which is almost impossible without detailed instructions (which she never communicates).

Basically I was running on emergency pilot constantly, and we all know that the quickest way to screw something up is to be in panic/under stress.  Result : failure.  And even lower self-esteem... .

I've learned not to care so much anymore about her comments of me doing it wrong.  If it got done, it is ok for me.  Kind of self-appraising.  Lowered the dependency on her validation, and helped me climb out of the darkness.

And also, if you're running on emergency pilot, your focus becomes very narrow.  Like you only see what's right in front of you.  You're in survival mode.  Meaning things like in-memory todo-lists get bypassed by the first new issue that comes up... .

Hope it sheds some light on the other side of the story.

Jack

[Jack_50]

On the subject of being accused of cheating :

It is an expression of your partner not feeling secure about you.  It usually starts with an instinctive reaction (jealousy) when he/she sees you being kind to a possible competitor.

The usual reaction is to prove that you did not cheat, but this is basically telling him/her that his/her feeling is wrong (invalidation).  Hence it puts more oil on the fire.

Your partner needs the feeling to be acknowledged, maybe by admitting that you did smile to that other person, and that you can understand how it could have made him/her jealous/insecure/doubtful.  But that it also means that you can see how much he/she appreciates you, and is afraid to lose you.  And that you'll regard that feeling more in the future when you meet others.  Followed by a big hug, and that's it.

It is basically taking him/her by the hand and guiding him/her through his/her own insecurity.

Hope it helps,

Jack

[Jack_50]

My H gets angry at me for what I should have done that he never said anything about but I should have known that anyway. Take this into the bedroom and you can imagine it really is demoralizing to think that your H isn't happy with you physically.  

No matter how often we had sex, one night off was "never". If we did X one night, then he was upset because I didn't do Y. Once he refused to touch or kiss me for weeks. He told me the sex was boring, I wasn't doing something enough, even if we did it yesterday. It was insanity. I ended up keeping a record of what we did on a calendar so I wouldn't think I was losing my mind because everything was "you never".

I'm not a prude, but I was your basic traditional girl who just wanted a loving marriage with one man, for the rest of our lives. It completely broke just about every bit of heart and soul I could have for him, to think that my husband could not be happy with me in that way. We still have a physical life, but I can't be invested in it emotionally like I was. It was just to hurtful to be.

NotWendy,

Your husband cannot expect you to know things that he did not tell you.  Humans are not telepathic (well most of us, anyway), and what is not said, is not known.  That is simply reality.

Especially at the beginning of a marriage, you have those high expectations, and that everything will just fall into place.  When they don't, you get frustrated, and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is "you never... .".

It takes experience to know that things don't work out in the way you want by themselves.  And that your input is a requirement for that.  Simple cause and effect.

NotWendy, you from your side can learn to not take his remarks too literally.  When communicating, people also mostly exaggerate, just to get their point across.  Hence the "never"s, "always"s, etc.  Put his words back in perspective, read between the lines, and the picture will be a lot less extreme.

Hope it helps,

Jack

[formflier]

He can't seem to connect dots that seem so obvious to me. A lot of times, I have to help him connect the dots.

Can he connect the dots on "his stuff"... .stuff he cares about?

[formflier]

My H gets angry at me for what I should have done that he never said anything about but I should have known that anyway. Take this into the bedroom and you can imagine it really is demoralizing to think that your H isn't happy with you physically.  

No matter how often we had sex, one night off was "never". If we did X one night, then he was upset because I didn't do Y. Once he refused to touch or kiss me for weeks. He told me the sex was boring, I wasn't doing something enough, even if we did it yesterday. It was insanity. I ended up keeping a record of what we did on a calendar so I wouldn't think I was losing my mind because everything was "you never".

I'm not a prude, but I was your basic traditional girl who just wanted a loving marriage with one man, for the rest of our lives. It completely broke just about every bit of heart and soul I could have for him, to think that my husband could not be happy with me in that way. We still have a physical life, but I can't be invested in it emotionally like I was. It was just to hurtful to be.

Notwendy,

have you guys ever attempted to discuss this in a MC situation.  With the right "kind" of MC... .and the right counselor... .I think you may be able to get somewhere by sharing feelings on this... .

[Notwendy]

This is somewhat of a frustation for me in marriage T. If I say something about my H, she turns it into my issue. This feels very invalidating and personally distressing since it mimics my family where if I said anything to mom, or about mom, it would be blamed on me. I have discussed my frustration with trying to communicate with my H.

I have to step back a bit and see a larger picture, because the minute my H thinks that T is directed at him, he will be out of there. I have tried for years for this, and just attending, even if he sits there is one huge step. One great result has been that he is able to catch himself being triggered and not rage. I think he may think it is because of me, but I don't care why, just that he does it.

Her focus is on me handling his rages and not taking care of his problems for him. Like most kids raised with BPD parents, I have an uncanny sense of reading people's faces, and anticipating their needs. It was survival for us. We' could tell that mom was starting to disregulate by subtle changes- slight blushing, agitation, and we'd scramble to do things for her. I know I did this with my H and was not even conscious of it, and that would reinforce his wish for me to meet his unspoken needs.

So, her goal for me, which I found hard to do until recently ( as rages were the way mom managed us), was just to back off and make it his problem. If he doesn't tell me what he wants, and I don't do it, then he is the one who is angry or disappointed. Then he might rage, but if I can let him own his anger, and not freak out and try to manage it for him, then he will need to figure out how to get his needs met.

The approach my T has is each person stays on their of the road and not cleaning up the other side. I agree that this is probably the only way change will happen if it does.