worried about coparenting session monday

[momtara]

My coparenting meeting is coming up Monday and I'm terrified.  Not because of what she might say, but because if I say the things I need to say about what we want to work on, ex may get triggered, and he is taking the kids next weekend.  This is our first appointment together so a ton of stuff has built up and I have a lot to say.   I feel like I will go in there Monday and not feel comfortable talking.  We don't have many sessions coming up and this is our first one together so a lot of issues have to be addressed.  I don't want to waste the session but if I don't feel comfortable talking, what good is it?  It will be an expensive wasted session where we don't really do anything and then wait two months until the next one.  I feel like I'll have to tiptoe again.  I can tell the counselor privately how I feel, but some have suggested here that I could seem high anxiety.  Also, she will probably just reassure me that everything's fine.

[momtara]

To clarify:  PC is a woman, ex is a man, if some of that was confusing above.  I know not everyone follows the whole story!

[livednlearned]

Has the counselor explained how this first session goes? In my first session with N/BPDx, if I remember correctly we most listened to the ground rules and the PC explained how she worked, and explain her philosophy about what her role was.

It sounds like your PC is functioning more like a coparenting counselor. Most of my interactions with the PC after the initial meetings were by email. She was copied on all of our communication and I only talked to her on the phone when it was clear that something troubling was going on.

You could look at Monday's meeting as an opportunity make your ex feel safe. It's not a productive use of money, but it might let him feel that he can create a rapport with the PC.

What are the things you want to bring up?

[momtara]

Well, we have already had an individual session each so have spent a lot of money and I feel like we need to get down to stuff.  We can communicate over email, but I want HER to bring up some stuff, like suggesting he gives more notifications that he is regularly attending psych visits, since he right now has a vague once-a-year letter he's supposed to give.  If I say that, he will get angry.  In fact, he keeps telling me I'm not supposed to bring up health issues at our meetings, which is not true whatsoever. 

I (foolish, I know) gave in to paying 100 percent of the PC when we signed the order.  Stupid, yes.  So our first meeting will be the meeting where I pay the big retainer.  If it's useless, I might do better in court.

I don't want to always be the one to suggest things.  I want to feel that my kids are safe and I want her to help with the fact that his communications to me are often hostile.  If we only communicate by email, then it's up to me to suggest he give more notifications.  So I want her to be paying attention to what's going on, and sometimes I will feel more comfortable if things come out in a session and she sees how he behaves.

I may call her and just remind her that he's taking the kids this upcoming weekend.  If there are emails back and forth all week, it will make him more hostile.  I'm not sure she sends a summary after meetings, but if she sends it too late in the week, it may trigger him.

[david]

I have a court ordered co parent counselor. We have been to 4 meetings to date. It wasn't until the fourth meeting that an issue was resolved. It wasn't a major one but it was a start. If you put yourself in the counselors shoes it seems logical that they would need time to assess the people and the situation. Each meeting adds to the counselors understanding.

I have a list in my head and written down of what I think is important for our kids. That is what I focus on. My ex pretty much points out that I am abusive and that is about it. She has no issues about me and the kids. I believe the counselor has things pretty much figured out by now.

"I will feel more comfortable if things come out in a session and she sees how he behaves". I used to feel the same conflict. I realized over time that I was looking for the professional to take charge and fix my ex or her behaviors. That isn't going to work and wouldn't be in the persons job description anyway. I try to focus on one or two topics during a meeting that pertain to the kids. They are only an hour so you really can't expect much to be accomplished in that short amount of time. I am flexible and will let my ex take the lead since she is her own worst enemy.

In one of the meetings my ex went on about how I am trying to micromanage her life and she will not let that happen. She transitioned into telling me that I needed to do something about our S11 and something he was doing at her residence. I simply explained to the counselor that I was not having the same issue so I had no way of knowing the how or why. The counselor never pointed out to ex the contradiction (projection) in her statements.

When I am in the meeting and discussing something about our kids I look at ex and talk to her as if the counselor isn't there. Ex doesn't look at me when I am talking to her and the counselor gently pointed that out to her. He asked her if there was something she wanted to say because she was looking away from everyone when I was speaking to her. I am sure she is "keeping it together" when she is doing that.

Perhaps if you address the communication issue like this, "I feel that your communications to me are often hostile and I don't believe that is best for our children. So ex how do you think we can resolve this ?" If he has nothing which is the most likely outcome then do you have an idea on how that can be resolved in a way that works for all involved ? Make the suggestion and ask him what he thinks. Staying calm during this time is how the counselor will see what is going on. If he has a good idea that you think works then acknowledge that. You can add to it if you think it would work.

The stigma of mental health issues would be a trigger for most people. Addressing that in a compassionate way is a tricky balance. I know I can't do that on a regular basis.

I have learned that the family court system is not there to fix a problem, except when documented physical abuse occurs, and what they want is for both parents to find a solution. If one parent has a solution and the other never does then the parent with the solution usually "wins".

[momtara]

I know.  Here's the issue.  In our court order (that we signed 6 months ago) for the PC, we agreed that she can't talk to his therapists.  I was ok with this at the time, although reluctantly.  Now things have changed.  He is still hostile and I thought it would get better.  I think there may be times our PC should be able to talk to his docs.  So in our first session, she is going to bring the retainer agreement and likely ex will ask to put in that she can't talk to his docs.  I want to point out that I no longer agree with this, and perhaps it needs to be changed in court.  If he wasn't seeing the kids a few days later, I might feel comfortable saying that.  But I'm going to be afraid to say that now.  So I'm not sure I want to sign the document in her office and give up my last change to change this.

Either way, he is going to be pissed. 

If our PC makes the suggestion maybe he will take it, but she may want me to make it, and I'm not sure I feel comfortable doing taht in front of him.

I dont' actually care as much about his hostilities toward me as much as the fact that they mean he is not addressing his anger enough in counseling, which means he needs to be.  He has taken out his anger on the kids before (not physically but in other ways) and so if he just cuts down on his hostile communications to me, that won't change that he's hostile in general - he will just redirect it.

I want to tell her all of this and have her be able to talk to his docs like our last PC did.  Ex hated that so I compromised.  I think it's a bad idea to get locked into this now.

I left a message with her yesterday.  Hasn't called back yet.  I need a concise way to say all this.

[livednlearned]

Now things have changed.

Things have changed? Or you have changed your mind?

I want to point out that I no longer agree with this, and perhaps it needs to be changed in court. 

This seems to be more about you than the PC or your ex, momtara. Disordered or not, it would be difficult to walk into a meeting like this and find out that the other party wants to change the rules. I think anyone would feel ambushed and on the defensive. Add to that the nature of the disorder and your role as the punitive parent that can't meet his needs, and it would take something short of a miracle for him to agree to your changed terms.

Some of the most elaborate privacy laws are around patient health, and even though you're divorced from him, you want access to intimate information about his health. I understand completely why you want this information -- I felt the same way about my ex and his alcohol consumption. If I had the money and the court let me, I would've had him get tested at least once a week. At some point, though, you have to take a step back and acknowledge what you are asking. I think a request like this would trigger anyone. My ex had a psychotic episode and I can't imagine anyone agreeing that this was a reasonable request. Testing, evaluations, yes. Access to doctors, no.

You know enough about the disorder, and enough about your ex's stance to know that he is going to feel ambushed. If you bring this up in your meeting tomorrow, it seems unlikely that you'll be working with a PC in the near future. If I walked into a meeting with a hidden agenda that was suddenly revealed, including something I had made clear I was against, I would end the meeting. Why continue?

[momtara]

Of course I changed my mind, but I do think things have changed.  Twice in the last few months, he came and yelled at me in front of the kids and wouldn't stop.  I'm sure if I bring that up in front of the PC, ex will say he's going to stop, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that he gets terribly triggered and if he can't use me as an outlet, he'll use someone or something else (like maybe take it out on the kids to get back at me).  The only help comes from his therapists, but they don't really know what goes on if no one is telling them.  Our last PC was able to call them if there was an issue.  Doesn't mean I have to know what they say, but at least she knew.  Your insight is very good in this situation because I do have to think about how he'll react and perceive what I say.  But if I sign a new retainer agreement reiterating something I don't agree with at this point, I'm then going against my gut even more.  Maybe I will just not have that reiterated in the agreement.  

The PC has a standard agreement saying she can have access to collateral sources, and that her recs are binding.  Our court order for a PC says she won't be allowed to talk to doctors.  I think if I went to a judge, a judge would certainly want her to be able to tip off ex's doctors if something seems strange or is wrong.

To work with this person, we'll have to sign a retainer agreement.  I'm not sure I'll want to reiterate something when the situation didn't get better and ex is still acting out.

If he walks out, then maybe we go to court.  I don't want that, as it will rachet things up for months.

Another option is to hope that PC suggests some of these things, and he agrees.  Maybe that is wise.  Still wish our appointment wasn't before his weekend with the kids.  His pickups are so hostile sometimes.

[livednlearned]

I wish it were different, but I think your ex yelling at you in front of the kids is not going to count as "things have changed" to people who see a lot of human conflict. In exchange for other concessions, like having your ex create a rapport with her (if that's possible), could you agree to the terms of the custody order for now and sign the retainer, and let this ride out to see if she can make any headway with him on other things?

For example, if in two weeks the incident you described earlier happened, where he abruptly brought the kids to you and wouldn't explain why, the PC may have some ideas about how to explain your alarm to him in ways he can handle. He may see you as the target, and the PC as his ally. He may be amenable to what she says, because on some level he understands that his behavior was strange.

Iy experience with N/BPDx is that he created a very strong allegiance in his mind with the PC, thinking they together they were going to teach me some lessons. That fell apart fairly quickly when the PC said that his demands were not reasonable. She explained to him that we were parallel parenting now, that I was no longer his wife, and he did not need to know the floor plan of my home 

That shifted the drama triangle, and she became the target (in addition to me.) But my ex is very narcissistic, and I think the PC asserted very clear boundaries at the beginning, and then remained remarkably consistent in asserting those boundaries so that she didn't get steamrollered. The whole thing played out exactly the same with everyone who came into contact with our case, but she had the status and professional standing to testify in court that our case required a judge, not a PC, and that she recommended full custody for me because of that.

The short version of what I'm wondering is whether you can allow the consequences of your choices to play out for now, and let things take their course under the watchful eye of a PC. It could be that your ex "gifts" you something when his behavior becomes erratic while a PC is keeping an eye on him. Maybe the PC becomes your expert witness in court who says, "This parent has impaired judgment that puts the kids in some risk. I recommend supervised visitation and assigning a PC who can speak to doctors in order to make sure the minor children are not put in danger during spells of his erratic behavior."

If you change the rules in this first meeting, and your ex walks out, and the two of you go to court, you're going to lose this scaffolding that you fought hard to get. You'll lose even the watered down version of what you wanted back when your Ls drew up this order, and it seems like that would just deprive you even more of reaching your goal.

[Panda39]

Hi Momtara,

I've read a lot of your posts and it feels like you just go around and around and around about your ex's therapy and what he's doing and what they know.  It seems to me that you're looking for validation about your ex's behaviors from them.

I totally understand why you want that.  You want to protect your kids and I understand your fears. 

Can you let that go of the ex's therapy? I feel like you are kind of stuck there.  Is there another way to get what you want?

Based on my SO's uBPDxw's behaviors during their divorce, it is my belief that your ex will validate your concerns on his own but you need to let him.  You can't keep trying to "manage" his behaviors and you can't keep anticipating how you think he will behave and try to "control" it. My suggestion is let go of trying to get the ex's therapy information and let the PC do their job.  All the information they need will already be there in the room... .that would be the ex in the chair next to you.  Voice your concerns after all that is why you're there, maybe write them down so you can present them in the best way that you can.  I think you need to let things play out as originally agreed to.

[momtara]

Those are both very good suggestions and well thought out. I want to think about all of your words and respond later, because it's such good advice and I need to figure out how to translate it into what I should do (or not do).  I really appreciate your thoughts.

I think it is important to have a PC in place.  I suppose I feel that by going slow, I'm just going to be doing all the same things we did a year ago with our other PC.  But I guess it's less high conflict than going to court.

Thank you, LnL, for remembering the two-hour visit thing.  Incidentally, he later told me that it was because he injured himself.  He has an appointment this week with a doctor. 

[momtara]

Just talked to PC briefly on phone.  I said I wanted to have a few minutes of a confidential session before we both talk.  She said it's fine.  I also explained that he's taking the kids on the weekend.  She said maybe she'll call him later in the week to check in with him. 

I also was concerned that I'd always have to be the one making recommendations or bringing up all the topics, but she said she can make them sometimes.

I feel slightly better.  Still want her to make sure he's attending therapy though.

[livednlearned]

I think it is important to have a PC in place.  I suppose I feel that by going slow, I'm just going to be doing all the same things we did a year ago with our other PC.  But I guess it's less high conflict than going to court.

Your ex may have some Axis I issues in addition to Axis II, and your kids are young, and it's hard to manage your anxiety consistently with those two things combined. But your anxiety is only going to go up if your ex walks out of the meeting tomorrow. If that happens, you'll have a dysregulated ex and no PC, plus the stress of taking this to court.  

Since chances are very low to zero that your ex will agree to change the order, why not sit tight with what you have right now and let the PC do her job. I wonder sometimes if you are overly focused on monitoring his therapy because you don't trust others to see how ill he is. Maybe your ex will do something under this PC's watch that creates an important ally for you, someone who can testify that your fears are founded, and someone that the courts sees as unbiased. If you get supervised visitation, the therapy stuff is going to matter less.

Otherwise, focusing so much on controlling what your ex does is going to hit people's buttons. You don't know if the judge is dx'd and treated for bipolar, who has an ex husband somewhere, and the last thing she would want is his busy self nosing around in her health records.

[momtara]

I know his docs never take his issues seriously, well, the psychologist doesn't.  But thanks for calming me down.  You have a lot of wisdom.  I wish others could see what I do. 

One thing I liked about the other doc talking to his docs is that if something changed in his life, like job loss or he had to move out of his parents' place, she'd be able to find out so we could prepare for him being triggered and stuff.  But I'll see how it all goes.

[david]

Another thought to add, the only one that can change your ex is your ex. If he is going to a therapist and not really working on his issues he will not accomplish much and neither will the therapist.

My ex left a journal in our house when she left. It was about three years prior to us meeting and ended about six months after we met. In it she mentioned seeing three different T's and a psychiatrist. She is currently seeing a T according to what she said in our custody eval. That is around a total of ten years. I don't see any real changes as far as my limited interactions with her. I honestly don't think things will ever change for her. it is what it is. As much as I would like her to get better I also realize I have no power to help her achieve that.

A few months before she left my ex insisted we needed to go to marriage counseling. We went together several times. Eventually things got to a point that the "counselor" told me she couldn't see me anymore because ex was her client. She apologized and told me I needed to get an attorney and do what my attorney told me to do. She gave me no indication as to the why. I stumbled into learning about BPD and things started to make sense as to the why. I believe my ex is still seeing this T and it ain't helping. If it is I can't imagine how much worse it could be in dealing with my ex and I really don't want to find out. I believe her defense mechanisms are so built up and strong that she will never be any different.

[momtara]

Well, off to the session shortly.  I'm very nervous.  I think part of it is just being in his presence.  I am tired of him being so hostile.  Boundaries work to a point.  Well, off I go.

[momtara]

Well, it was worse than expected.  The summary:

-He started lying.

-Obviously, I got upset.  (Mistake we are encouraged not to make, but it's hard to help it sometimes.)  I did not yell at him or curse, but of course defended myself and tried to explain it wasn't true.

-She seemed to repeat back his lies.

-Her "solutions" were for me to do things to alleviate the situation, things that cost me time and money, and he doesn't have to do anything.  Meaning, I am back in his web of control.

I can understand her being even handed.  However, for instance, he claimed his therapists sent letters to my L saying he was in regular therapy treatment.  I said they never sent them.  PS looked at me and said "It's alarming that your L never forwarded you the letters."

WHAT?  The letters do not exist.  She didn't say IF.  She believed my lawyer failed to forward these non-existent letters!

I repeatedly asserted that here were no such letters.  She suggested I ask my L.  Great way to waste money - ask my L to comb through records to find something that doesn't exist.  

ExH wants to talk to me each night about what's happening with the kids.  I am now keeping to text and email.  Privately, PC had told me months ago that in the case of a high conflict person, email and text are best. But  at the meeting, after he complained, she said email and text are cumbersome and maybe we can talk at night after I put the kids to bed.

Sometimes I put the kids to bed late because I work late and sometimes they won't go to sleep.  Ex likes to complain about that.  Now I will have to justify what time I put them to sleep (sometimes 8:30, sometimes 9, but sometimes as late as 10 when they sleep - and the last thing I want to do is call my ex! And have him claim I never called.)  I am exhausted by the end of the night.

I believe the best in people.  I'd like to believe maybe she was trying not to trigger him.   He did sign her retainer agreement but crossed out the part about her recommendations being binding.  He didn't do anything about hte line saying she can talk to all the professionals.

I actually repeated back some of his lies that made NO sense just so she would see how crazy they were, but she didn't seem to seize on this.  

Worse yet, we were disagreeing on when to meet with her.  She asked if I would consider increasing his parenting time by one day if we could meet with her during his time!  Yeah, that sounds good, undo two years of legal wranging over parenting time for a 1-hour PC session.

I can understand how she wants to get to know us and will see in time who's telling the truth, but her solutions seemed like nonsense, especially since during private sessions she told me that people with PD's are manipulative and best handled via email/text.  So she gets us both in her office and all of a sudden believes every crazy thing he says, even when he backs it up with clear craziness?  And she suggests I talk to him on the phone after the kids are asleep?

Sorry to ramble, I'm frustrated.  So after I got home this evening, he called the kids a bunch of times and didn't say anything, then texted me to claim I was withholding them.  This is his fave tactic.  I put them on the phone over and over.  He kept silent.  Then sent texts claiming I am withholding them.  I worry because maybe he will withhold when he has them next, then claim I did the same.

Oh, biggest thing - he said that he now sees his psychiatrist every 6 weeks.  He claimed to our lawyers all summer that it was 4 weeks.  I mentioned, "So the status quo changed?"  She didn't seem to care.  Obviously he was lying last summer to get off supervised visitation, claiming he was seeing his psychiatrist every 4 weeks when it was six.  He is seeing a psychologist every 2 weeks too.  I said his notification letters should say if he misses meetings.  He acknowledged he misses meetings but would not say how often.

He has visitation this Saturday.  I figure if I don't respond to ANYTHING AT ALL in a negative way, he won't be triggered.  Usually in 3-4 days his anger calms down, if nothing new triggers him.

So basically, he got put on supervised visitation last summer, got off it saying he sees his docs x number of times, and now is unwiling to stand behind that, saying it changed.

She is supposed to send us an email summary of the session and her recommendations.  She has his signature on the retainer document.  I am curious to see what she sends.

If I thought he would hurt htem this weekend, the logical thing is to go to court this week and ask for an emergency motion based on his change of status, etc.   I KNOW that lived and learned and others have gotten frustrated with me, as I claim he may be dangerous, then I back down.  It all comes back to this:   He scares me.  He imagines things.  He has shown he does not always put the kids first, esp. when triggered.  He has not physically injured them, verbally threatened us, or done anything drastic... .yet.  He does not drive drunk.  He DID total his car before a PC appointment last year becuase he was so stressed (kids were fine, with babysitter, not him or me).

I am coparenting with someone who is mentally ill.  He has not "done" anything.  I could take him to court and rachet things up and get nothing out of it because he has not "done" anything.  Many on this board have done so and not gotten supervised visitation, but got a small concession.  I find that a small concession will not protect the kids if it causes the added stress and trigger of court.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm whining.  If you asked, I'd say he is 98 percent unlikely to hurt the kids.  That doesn't seem good enough.

I can keep going with this PC and be careful what I say to ex and things may work out - she may see his madness and recommend a psych eval or worse.  Or she may be like she was today, and just seemingly blow everything off.  

She told me privately in a phone convo that the health and safety of the kids is a priority.  So I'd like to think ultimately she will not be manipulated by him.

I dunno - I am not being wimpy, just not sure I am unbiased enough to know the right thing to do.  Tonight, perhaps I wait and lay low and give her time to see his crazy.  I assume he will be ok by the weekend to take them to his parents' house, but also keep abreast of the texts etc i get from him in the next few days.  If he seems crazy, I act.  I don't know.  Am I:  A cautious mother, a wimpy mother, or just as confused as all of us about whether our BPD is dangerous or just wants to unnerve and engage us?

Dunno.

Or I get medieval and go to court and demand he see his shrink 4x and not 6x (yeah, I know... .to a judge seems like small potatoes compared to the druggies that have visitation?  I hear that sometimes... .)

OK.  I need sleep.

[momtara]

PS above meant PC.  Sorry.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like in your private session you mentioned that your ex has a PD?

There are some things that would make the hair stand up on the back of my neck based on what your PC said/did. Casually giving him an extra day? That doesn't sound like a PC who understands personality disorders OR family court. What did you say when she suggested that? Your PC situation is set up different than mine. I did not have to regularly meet in person with N/BPDx. My PC also did not play any games. Not sure if yours is doing that or not, but it doesn't sound like she is consistent.

Am I:  A cautious mother, a wimpy mother, or just as confused as all of us about whether our BPD is dangerous or just wants to unnerve and engage us?

You're a single mom with two young kids who has to triangulate with a mentally ill ex husband and the legal system. You're probably all of the above, as well as feeling scared, like you mentioned earlier :'(  It's a pretty awful set-up and you're doing the best you can.

If your PC cannot make binding recommendations, then she does not have much teeth. And he did not cross out the line that mattered most to you, so that's worth holding onto.

If you do not want to talk to ex on the phone, give it a week and then next time you meet, tell the PC that you are more comfortable with email and text. I don't know that you need to defend your decision, but it's perfectly reasonable to say that end of day is very busy, you're tired, and it's not the best time for phone contact. Court does not split hairs, in my experience. If you're communicating to your ex by email every day, that's so far above and beyond what is reasonable. Talking on the phone even more so, especially late at night.

The PC is trying to get both of you to give some things up and get a middle ground going. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything, although while she's getting to know you, it might be a good idea to try things out for a week before telling her that it doesn't work for you. She's looking to see who is the difficult person. Remember that boundaries are not the same as being rigid -- you can have a boundary and still try one of her suggestions, but return to it when it doesn't work for you.

Like all parts of this dog and pony show, nothing works well when the third-party professionals aren't good. A different judge presiding over my case could've ruled on technicalities and I would not have the outcome I had. If this PC is a loser, then it's going to be tough. If there's a chance she is going to testify, then think about what you want her to say when she describes your participation. It never occurred to me that my PC would give a report on N/BPDx and then describe what it was like working with me.

I would also make for darn sure that under no circumstance do you deviate from the court order, especially when it comes to parenting time.

[momtara]

Thanks, LnL.  I feel better already.

Yes, I had mentioned privately to our PC that our last couples counselor suggested he had a PD.  I have learned a lot from this board, and one of the things I learned is not to diagnose one's ex.    So I (truthfully) pinned it on our old marriage counselor.

So here's the next phase, and maybe I need to start a separate thread.  She sent a fact-based summary of our meeting after midnight last night.  I thought it was ok, and I didn't want to look the bad guy.  So I simply wrote back that I appreciated the summary.

Ex sends an email to me and the PC this morning saying ":)ear [Name of PC], I talked with my lawyer and he said that under no circumstances are we to discuss my health or doctors.  Doing so will be grounds for terminating your employment immediately."

So, a new wrinkle.

Part of me want to stop my constant anxiety by taking him to court and getting a private evaluation (I know, I know, I've been talking about this for years).  I'd have to file an emergency motion this Friday before he takes the kids.  I got supervised once before; it's possible I can get it again based on these yelling incidents here and there, the fact that he was on supervised before and lied to get off it, and now his threats to fire the PC.  I may not get it, but I might at least have a hearing for other stuff, like making his psych notifications have more teeth.  (And yet, the whole time, he is still taking the kids.)

Another response is to wait it out.  See if his health comes up again next time (including doctor visits) and if he sends another letter threatening the PC.  Then I have yet another chance to Do Something.

I took into account what LnL and some others said above - ride it out a bit, see if the PC can help here and there, make sure she's in place.  However, I failed to follow "use this session to make him feel safe."  Perhaps that is my fault.  I didn't want to tiptoe.   I did say I thought he had to manage his anger better and asked him what he was doing about it.  He said I shouldn't ask about his health, and I said I could ask if I wanted to.

One more wrinkle - the agreement.  *I* left without signing.  He signed, I didn't.  I am going to ask her to fax it to me to sign.  (I was running out as I had babysitters, etc. to get to).  I am also concerned that it says that if anyone sues her or files a frivilous complaint against her, we are responsible for paying for her legal costs.  Great, I'll have to worry about exH suing her and me getting stuck with the bill.

But if I quibble over that, I lose the fact that he signed this thing. 

One thing that's hard is navigating whether I'm maintaining peace or simply walking on eggshells.  And I can't figure out if I am angry, anxiety-filled, or doing the right thing.

Seems to me our PC may never change anything major, but may just help us with certain decisions.  I was hoping she'd see his nuttiness. 

[momtara]

As for PC being consistent, she strikes me the same way lawyers have struck me - she forgets things.  I gave her some papers a month ago.  Seems like she didn't remember all that happened.  Ugh.

As for what I said when she suggested giving him an extra day.  I involuntarily made the worst face I think I could have ever made - I was even conscious of it.  I said, "That's the opposite of what we should do!"  Luckily we moved on.

This could all be tactics to make him feel safe, but I dunno.

[momtara]

So an update.  He just sent another email saying "In further discussion with my lawyer, I should note that [momtara] brings our children to excessive doctor visits.  She brought our son to an unnecessary ER visit while we were married.  Afterwards, the pediatrician agreed that it was unnecessary."

Actually, HE brought our son, it was unnecessary, all the papers show this, and it was one of the reasons I filed for divorce and a restraining order.

Now that he is so dysregulated he is unraveling before our eyes, I am very unnerved.

It doesn't take much to trigger him.  But part of me thinks I really should have kept my mouth shut during the session and made him feel safe, as was suggested above.  Then when he did this, PC could be able to better advise me.  That said, I feel like I didn't want to keep putting off hot topics and making him believe we'd never discuss his health.  It's good to have the PC in place first, but how long to keep putting stuff off?

Now he has them for visitation again on Sat.  That's a ways away, but still.  Have to decide what to do. 

[david]

I was in a custody eval months ago. WE were at our last meeting but I thought we had one more to go. I handed him some papers to cover some of the distortions ex said in the prior meetings. The rules were that anything in the eval had to be in threes so everyone got a copy. Ex refused to take the papers from me and immediately threatened the evaluator with legal action. I didn't think it would have triggered ex but it did. The evaluator took care of ex and settled her down. I did nothing that was not allowed in the meetings so I wasn't worried. Perhaps that is the same thing in your situation.

I was very comfortable in the same room with ex and that made all the difference for me. I stood by my boundaries, email only communication, keeping physically distant to protect myself from false allegations, having a video camera and an audio recorder on me whenever ex would be near even though it is technically illegal in my state. I had valid reasons for my actions and did not give in. I explained these are things that have worked for the last four years and nothing I did before that worked. I offered to modify things if ex could show me a good reason to do so. Of course she didn't have anything to offer. If she did and it didn't sit well with me I would have said so.

Having the records of the doc visits and who did what with you at the next meeting may be something to bring with you. One piece of paper with all the pertinent facts and the pile of evidence to back it up. The anger being expressed by ex is the reason for your concern.

Asking him about his anger is not about whether you can ask or not. It is about the safety of the children. That is why you are concerned and that is a reasonable subject to address. That is the only real reason you can and should ask.

Can you adjust the agreement that the party that brings the lawsuit is responsible for the fees, etc. Don't sign it until that is addressed. You can actually address that at the next meeting. That would be a boundary for you and him. You are no longer married and you are not "sharing" expenses outside of childcare.

Put yourself in pc's shoes. It is her first meeting with the two of you. It sounded like there was tension from both parents. It is understandable but from the pc's perspective both of you were triggered by the other. Which one is the more reasonable one ? Hard to say after one meeting. Putting things out there that she knows would not go over well with the other may be a way of seeing how that person handles it. Are your reasons well thought out or is this just two people that can't get along.

I noticed that when I explained why I thought something was important it was never objected to by the evaluator. It was questioned by him and I was able to have a conversation with him. My reasons were about my own personal safety and what I thought was best for our boys. I did say that my ex gets angry and when she does I am unable to have any kind of productive dialogue. That was why I use email only communication. If she sends me something attacking me it is much easier for me to let it go. I only reply to things pertaining to the children through email and I can't figure a way to do that through talking. I offered to bring several recent emails to prove my point. The evaluator didn't think he needed any.

His emails seem to me more like a vent than an actual cause for concern of legal action. It sounds like he thought he didn't do very well and is lashing out. He is threatening the pc more than anyone else and that goes to the heart of the matter. If the children anger him then what will he do to them? Stay focused on the children and what is best for them. I don't believe he ever physically abused the children, from reading your posts, so the courts would probably not do much. Also, today is Tuesday and he has several days to calm down before picking up the kids. Yes, I remember getting stressed in the beginning. Let him continue to vent to the pc and don't engage. He is making your point. Document, document, document.

[ForeverDad]

Doesn't sound like anything to be done about the upcoming scheduled visit.

It seems to me that your PC is seeing a lot of this as "he said, she said" and the result was an attempt to find a middle ground where a father has less than normal visitation, "Give the guy a break, disregard the parenting schedule, give him an extra day."

You, or perhaps your lawyer, could respond... .or perhaps at the next session... .

PC, I do not feel comfortable with making changes to the scheduled visitation, especially without basis and on the first visit.  As an example of why I have concerns, Mr Ex just claimed I took our child to the ER on an unnecessary visit.  Attached is a copy of the ER report where it specifically mentions father brought the child to the ER.

Do you understand my concerns and deep reservations when Mr Ex says the complete opposite to what actually happened?  This is similar to his statement he just made that he now sees his psychiatrist every 6 weeks.  He claimed to our lawyers all summer that it was 4 weeks.  Do I really have to go to the expense of paying my lawyer to respond to his rewritten history?  I have concluded he made a claim last summer of frequent therapy visits so he could get off supervised visitation.  Frankly, I can't trust anything he says anymore, not without documentation.  Naturally, documentation is always lacking from him.

We need a PC who can manage the issues, not try to find a middle ground halfway between two sets of relatively equal claims.  Making concessions to him won't get reciprocated results.  I know, I've tried, over and over.  That's why the marriage failed.  So far the only thing that has worked for me has been better boundaries, less appeasing, though still a work in progress for me.

David made excellent points:  Asking him about his anger is not about whether you can ask or not. It is about the safety of the children. That is why you are concerned and that is a reasonable subject to address. That is the only real reason you can and should ask... .  It is her first meeting with the two of you. It sounded like there was tension from both parents. It is understandable but from the pc's perspective both of you were triggered by the other. Which one is the more reasonable one? Hard to say after one meeting. Putting things out there that she knows would not go over well with the other may be a way of seeing how that person handles it. Are your reasons well thought out or is this just two people that can't get along?

[david]

Another thing to consider. My ex accused me of having anger issues in court once. The judge ordered me to have an anger assessment. It cost me a few hundred dollars. I had no issues. If ex says he doesn't have anger issues then suggest that you both take assessments instead of going to court. If he agrees then make sure you have a good place to go to. You would go separately of course. Including yourself takes away the notion that you are attacking him personally. The downside is if he "passes" the assessment you have no basis for any further action. You can just ask him to get an assessment too.

[momtara]

Ooh, thanks guys.  These are good ideas and so much advice that rings true.  Hopefully ex can spend an hour without sending another ridiculous text and I can calm down a little. 

ForeverDad, your letters is excellent.  (I might slightly reword the 'I need a PC who' but the rest is brilliant.)  You are a good writer.  Maybe this board does that to a person!

David wrote:  "Also, today is Tuesday and he has several days to calm down before picking up the kids."

Gosh, David, you are thinking like me now.    Hmmm, you should worry about that.  (Just kidding!)

[david]

I have noticed that many times when my ex gets triggered she calms down in a few days. I used to be afraid to trigger her because I didn't want her to take it out on the kids. She did but nowhere near what I anticipated. My ex is more focused on "getting" me. The last few years I noticed that she disappears when the boys are with her. That can be going to work or somewhere besides her residence leaving the boys by themselves or going to her room and closing the door having no interaction with the boys. I think she is struggling with depression.

I remember from some of your other posts that your ex will bring the kids back to you before he was supposed to. Perhaps he is doing that because he knows he isn't able to deal with the kids at that time. I would view that as a positive since he is aware something is not quite right.

[momtara]

Yup.  I did purposely make this session on Monday so it would be a few days before he takes them.

[momtara]

I thought and hoped our PC wouldn't respond to all his emails.  At the very least, being threatened should be a concern for her.

Instead, she just sent us this follow up email:

"I believe that I have not discussed nor I am planning to discuss any personal health issues related to you or [momtara] in our sessions.

The question that had been raised by [momtara] is related to the letter that  you are supposed to send to [momtara]'s attorney as stipulated by item 2 of your consent order dated 9/3/14. [momtara] will discuss this letter with her attorney and if she has any issues with it, this will also be addressed by [momtara] and her attorney."

[the letter is about him annually stating that he is seeing his therapists.  I raised the issue that there is no date given for when he has to turn in the letters.  He claimed he already did.]

What troubles me is her response.  Is this going to give him the impression that we won't discuss his mental health?  This sets up a dangerous situation if he is able to bully into promising not to discuss this or that.  What if there ends up being a reason to discuss his health?

Am I going down a bad road by continuing with this woman?  This could make things worse. I was hoping she'd be there to help with health matters for the children.  Instead, she seems to respond and back down.  This is someone who told me months ago she was familiar with PD's.

She also sent another email saying we should get consent for specialist appointments.  This is based on him complaining about something in an email, not a discussion with both of us.

[david]

My interpretation is that she is not making any diagnosis since she is not legally able to. However, discussing the behaviors: anger, threats, etc. are still included. She is walking a fine line. If you bring the behaviors up you will also need a solution. My ex made many false allegations against me. I purchased an video and an audio recorder to protect myself from false allegations. Ex countered that I was breaking the law. I calmly asked her for another solution that would also make me feel safe from further allegations.

The custody eval I went through several months ago I purposely did not mention mental health issues. I had to pay attention so I didn't say anything about BPD. However, I did mention behaviors that ex exhibited. I talked about her anger and how once she got angry it was useless to try to co parent. Her emails would get more negative and attack me. If there was something in the email that directly pertained to the kids I answered only that. I said that I thought it wasn't right that I had to read emails that would print out on two or three pages telling me what was wrong with me and have to find the sentence or two that pertained to the children. I also said that trying to co parent with someone that gets angry anytime I simply had a different point of view seemed counterproductive and that is why I went to parallel parenting and minimized my interactions with her.

I also described situations that showed abandonment issues without ever saying abandonment. I described the constant contradictions that ex displayed towards the children and me. I never said it was crazy or wrong. I simply described things that happened. Ex went on to justify her actions and the justifications were all about her. She never mentioned the kids or me. She would go on about how no one can tell her what to do and she is much happier since she left me ? She left in 2007 and she was still trying to convince herself I was the problem in 2014 right in front of the evaluator. If your attorney hasn't received a letter I wouldn't even bring it up since he will probably forget about it and not do anything.

Your consent order was dated 9/13/14. Changing that now is too early. In my county you have to wait two years for a change in circumstances. I don't think the pc would a change an order so soon. She would have to see serious dysregulation by your ex to do anything at this point to change the order.

She may be familiar with pd's but she can't treat them.

"the letter is about him annually stating that he is seeing a therapist"  If I strictly interpreted that I would think he has until 9/13/15 to abide by the order. I don't think the courts will do anything about changing that since it was already agreed to. If he doesn't abide by the order then you have reason to go to court. At that time you may be able to change it to more frequently instead of once a year.