worried about coparenting session monday

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Interesting and well put.  However, I'm still a bit rattled.  We know that BPD people see things in black and white.  He will interpret this as a promise not to mention health issues, doctor visits, psychiatry etc.  Was it necessary for her to respond that way?  As usual, I'm not sure how it all comes off, so I wonder if I'm overreacting.  I don't want to tapdance anymore (unless it's temporary to keep kids safe etc).  This person didn't seem alarmed at all that my ex sent an email telling her she'd be fired if she mentioned his health issues, including mental health or doctor visits.  That should raise bells.  He wasn't even asking her for a response.  I think she should not have sent that email.

I still have time to drop her, and I think I could convince ex to do so too, just by pointing out certain things.  Of course, this takes time, and we'd either need to go to court or just pick a new pc, which will take time.  Some things she said just seem a little off to me.  I don't know.

[momtara]

Interesting and well put.  However, I'm still a bit rattled.  We know that BPD people see things in black and white.  He will interpret this as a promise not to mention health issues, doctor visits, psychiatry etc.  Was it necessary for her to respond that way?  As usual, I'm not sure how it all comes off, so I wonder if I'm overreacting.  I don't want to tapdance anymore (unless it's temporary to keep kids safe etc).  This person didn't seem alarmed at all that my ex sent an email telling her she'd be fired if she mentioned his health issues, including mental health or doctor visits.  That should raise bells.  He wasn't even asking her for a response.  I think she should not have sent that email.

I still have time to drop her, and I think I could convince ex to do so too, just by pointing out certain things.  Of course, this takes time, and we'd either need to go to court or just pick a new pc, which will take time.  Some things she said just seem a little off to me.  I don't know.

[livednlearned]

I'm just tossing something out there, haven't really thought this through.

But it seems like the PC is a wild card here. Your ex is actually being consistently inconsistent and all that.

So what about listing the pros/cons of staying with the PC to help you think this through. And what would you say to the PC in order to feel comfortable signing the contract.

[momtara]

Staying:

-Avoid court (court could mean possibly wildcard judge, spending $, long wait, increasing ex's anger.  On other hand, may tighten the agreement, get us a PC without all the restrictions, keep him in counseling a bit more.)

-Have someone to work through any issues that may come up in the near future, rather than waiting longer for court and stuff, which could take a week or could take months.

-Not have to go through more engagement/wrangling with ex to get a new pc, court, or whatever.  

-Most PC's around here are double the cost.  They want a $3K retainer just to START, $300 an hour, and can only meet 9-5 and other things.  They also have strict retainer agreements and they'd want to be able to talk to my ex's docs, which seems good to me.  But $300 an hour is a lot, and neither of us can afford it.

Cons:

-She seems to believe ex's lies, the way our marriage counselors used to, and is enabling his control issues by looking to me to prove things he comes up with.  May take her a long time to see his issues.  (Our last pc told me after 1 session he was mentally ill.)  She took several things he said as if they were fact, even after a 1.5-hour private session with me during which I gave her the whole background.  Also gave her our last PC's notes which she seems not to remember, which said he's sick, etc., etc. She also seems to think it's ok for me to spend money with my lawyer when we have her there to deal with some of this stuff.  

-I'm kind of punting down the line again.  We finish with her in a year, I still have to go to court and get a new pc, because I can't imagine things will be ok in a year and we won't need someone keeping an eye on ex and his issues and helping with decisions that require consent.

-She may turn on me.  If in 4-6 months I go to court, she could testify against me and for him.  Now I've got her and his therapists in his corner, and our old PC who understood stuff is way behind timewise.  

-Money.  She wants a retainer, at least $1500 to start.  Last PC let me pay as we go.  I keep paying this person and I have no money for emergencies or court.

-There may be a better PC out there.  Or maybe not.  Most are more expensive and you never know what you'll get, but I think there are some who don't take nonsense.  I have documentation on his issues - this is not he said/she said, but she seemed to make it out to be.

-With this PC, she has possibly closed off health issues as a topic for discussion -- that's bad.  She's a therapist.  She should know better.  Her power is weak already as it is.

The biggest reason to stay with her is that she's a PC and ultimately if there was an issue like, teacher recommends kid gets speech therapy, ex says no, she'd say YES he should get it.  :)on't want to keep waiting.  Biggest reason to drop her is that at least to begin with, seems like she Doesn't Get It and may cost me money and postpone the invevitable:  Court.  If ex stops his counseling or hardly goes, i have to go to court anyway.

I am going to talk to my T, who knows the family court system, about all this tomorrow.  

LivedNLearned, do you think her letter/response was reasonable?  

-

[livednlearned]

Some things that are bothering you about the PC seem like they are part of the job -- which is frustrating but from her standpoint are not that out of bounds.

Like:

She took several things he said as if they were fact, even after a 1.5-hour private session with me during which I gave her the whole background.

He gave her a different background, so the facts are probably somewhat in dispute for her. The ol' "he said, she said."

With this PC, she has possibly closed off health issues as a topic for discussion -- that's bad.  She's a therapist.  She should know better.  Her power is weak already as it is.

There is a court order in place, and she would be in contempt of court if she did something counter to the order.

Having said that, I certainly understand the concerns you have with her. From the date I verbally agreed to a PC (lawyer recommendation), to the time I signed an actual PC order, it was 9 months. I was concerned that a PC could become a negative advocate for N/BPDx, and was also worried that she would drag me through useless compromises that were not in the best interests of S13. That's why I ended up with a PC who was a child psychologist. I wanted that to be the focus.

Looking back at that period, I was convinced that no one would be able to see how disturbed N/BPDx was. But almost every person who came into contact with our case was able to pick up that something was seriously wrong. It's possible your ex contains his issues very well, but what PC would ever play around with that in the first session? It's alarming that she would suggest you give your ex extra parenting time so soon.

Even giving her the benefit of the doubt, that she is thinking strategically about your ex in terms of managing a high-conflict person with serious PD issues, the extra parenting time thing doesn't add up. If she is seeing in past PC notes that there is something wrong with your ex, that should sway her to see he has issues. To so casually recommend extra time seems like playing with fire, even for someone with a lot of experience and skill. It also suggests a lack of experience with the court system, which to me would be inexcusable for someone dealing with high-conflict custody issues.

You're paying for her to be effective at helping you and your ex resolve conflicts, that's one goal. But in my mind, you're also paying for an advocate. And she is raising some red flags about whether she will be effective with that.

The question, if you decide to can her, is what to do next.

[momtara]

The consent order does not say she can't mention his health issues.  He keeps repeating that over and over so it seems like she believes it.  I have told her over and over it doesn't say that.  It says we cannot discuss medication and she cannot talk TO his doctors.  I would not have signed something saying health issues were off the table.

Do you find any other red flags, other than the parenting time issue?  Just to further elucidate that one, ex and I were going back and forth on what time we could meet with her.  I said I have to pay for a sitter after hours, whereas the kids are in care all day and if we could meet her between 9 and 6 I could not have to worry about child care.  Ex said no, it's during work.  I said, not even one exception?  He said no.  She asked if my parents could watch the kids if we met on weekends.  I said I try to save them for emergencies.  She asked about ex's parents when he is with ex.  He and I both said at the same time, he only has a little parenting time.  It wouldn't necessarily be fair to have our session during it.  That was when she asked if I'd consider giving him an extra day.  So perhaps it was in the context of me saying he only had a *little* time.  But NO WAY am I setting a day as a precedent.  I could see her suggesting an extra 3 hours in that case.  An extra day?  No!

(As for me giving her the background, yes it's he said-she said, but she has documentation too.)

[livednlearned]

One thing that changed for me in the last four years is that I no longer talk myself into things. If I feel that things aren't right, I pay attention. I used to err on the side of misinterpreting things to my detriment. Now, I'm more likely to err on the side of protecting myself. I probably make mistakes by losing out, but I'm less likely to make mistakes that harm me. Any potential downside is worth it, especially right now while I learn how to take better care of myself.

When I offered my opinion, you offered me more information about why your initial comment might be wrong. I don't know what that's about, but that quality is important to pay attention to. Second-guessing yourself hasn't worked out well for you so far, at least in terms of two things you regret: not doing a CE, and then compromising about the current PC talking to ex's doctors.

Do you feel confident about this PC to stick with her?

[david]

"The consent order does not say she can't mention his health issues... .I have told her over and over it doesn't say that... " So maybe you can bring the order with you and ask for her to help you understand what her email says versus what the order says.

[ForeverDad]

It's hard to imagine no one has said, not even the PC, Let's get the order.  It's a part of your documentation.  Until it is produced it will stay bickering, "he said, she said".

[momtara]

She has the order.

She has read it several times and has referred to it in detail.

I told her in private session that ex kept sending me emails claiming it says health issues are off teh table, when they are not.

So she is simply getting intimidated, or something else I don't understand.

LivedandLearned, I wasn't necessarily second guessing myself.  However, several people on this board seem to think maybe I overreacted to certain things or that PC is doing her best, so I wanted to offer the full context of the comment.  If that doesn't change your opinion, good to know.  It concerned me.

I may send her an email giving her a chance to clarify about his health issues.  If she can't, I am unlikely to spend more money with her.  But yes, that does push me to act in some other more serious way. 

[david]

Another thought, Do you believe ex's psychiatrist/psychologist ( I forget which or if it is both) is actually helping him ? If it is not then what is the point of discussing his treatment. If it is then would it make sense to bring that up and say you see the positives of his therapy   or   if he agrees that the therapy is helping him then letting everyone know is a good thing for all involved. Kind of sounds less threatening for ex. Don't know if that makes sense.

[momtara]

Talked with my T about all this.

He is not impressed with our PC.  He said he gets calls from PC's all the time wanting to make sure the spouse is going to therapy, etc.  Meanwhile, this person seemed uninterested in the fact that my ex has been seeing his psychiatrist only every 6 weeks (if that) instead of 4, and other things.

She also appeased him after he sent two emails 12 hours after our session.

But he didn't think i should dump her.  He suggested I send a clear email stating my goals and trying to see if she is going to be able to do the right thing.  If it seems like she has backbone, then we can always have another session.  If not, I dump her.

I still have not given her a retainer or paid for the last session.  I am concerned that if I give her a retainer, and we need to dump her, I have no money to go to court.  My ex threatened that if I bring up health issues, he will fire her.  So it's a waste of money to invest a lot of time in her if she's going to accede to his threats.  

I am going to send her this email today.  

I guess in many of your cases, you don't have a lot of parenting time, so you're working toward that.  I have most of it now, and in case he does something dangerous, I'm not going to get much more.  So I am focused on trying to coparent with him without the kind of hostility he gives me.  I wonder if maybe I just have to live with it and accept it, considering things could be much worse.  It's hard to think about doing this for 14 years, always feeling nervous when they're with him, etc.  But maybe that's the lot in life of those of us dealing w/a mentally ill ex.

I feel like if his therapist knew that he was still fighting with me at pickups and other stuff, maybe he could help him.