My abandonment fears and coping with the push/pull behavior of pwBPD

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I suffer from dependent personality disorder (DPD). One of the core features of DPD is a fear of abandonment. When a pwDPD feels "abandoned" they will react with appeasement, submissiveness, and clingy behaviors. It is similar to the pull phase of a pwBPD. On the other hand, when my pwBPD "pushes" me away, I am filled with anxiety and fear. The feeling is like pure terror.

I have been working with a therapist with my DPD/abandonment fears, but my pwBPD's push/pull sets off the abandonment fears.

I have depersonalized most of my pwBPD's behaviors, but I am having such a hard time with the push/pull.   

Does anyone have advice on how to cope with this behavior?

[EaglesJuju]

I suffer from dependent personality disorder (DPD). One of the core features of DPD is a fear of abandonment. When a pwDPD feels "abandoned" they will react with appeasement, submissiveness, and clingy behaviors. It is similar to the pull phase of a pwBPD. On the other hand, when my pwBPD "pushes" me away, I am filled with anxiety and fear. The feeling is like pure terror.

I have been working with a therapist with my DPD/abandonment fears, but my pwBPD's push/pull sets off the abandonment fears.

I have depersonalized most of my pwBPD's behaviors, but I am having such a hard time with the push/pull.   

Does anyone have advice on how to cope with this behavior?

[Giggler82]

Eagles juju I'm not sure if  this helps at all but my psych asked me when I was going to stop abondoning myself! A very potent  but upsetting statement! In my dependancy I completely forgot who I was. What do I like/dislike. What do I enjoy doing for me? I realised that by holding on to my beliefe that my father was to blame for my dependancy issues, I had lost myself. For the past 30 years I have been trying to kill the feeling of panic at not bieng needed/loved by someone... That whole time all I had to do was love myself! Accept that there is no logical reason that proves I am unworthy of love.  Most importantly I have to base my self esteem on myself! No one else will ever be able to fill in what I need because what I need is to find me again! Our self esteem is defined by our likes and dislikes. Her excellent advise to me was "be kind to yourself."  Rebuilding self esteem starts with not tearing ourselves to shreds. How can we heal when we frequently wound ourselves?

I'm fair new on here. So not sure if that helped or not? it's a long road. But one we need to travel! Keep your chin up!

[InATimeLapse]

Hi EaglesJuju,

It's obviously very difficult to empathize with what another person feels.  I think if it were possible to spend a day in someone else's mind, experiencing the same events and feeling the same emotional responses, it would be much easier to truly understand where they are and to give the right feedback.  It's so easy to forget that the emotions other people feel and the subsequent behaviors and responses of those emotions in any given situation do not necessarily follow our own, which we naturally, humanly believe everyone else experiences in the same way (unless we put a LOT of time and energy into changing that mindset, and even then it takes work keeping that mindset honed).

With that said I'll try my best to empathize with the traits of DPD in context to your question.

It's obviously very difficult for non-DPD people to handle push/pull.  When you build your life around somebody, become familiar with their personality, feel a sense of companionship in being able to share the events of your life and your inner thoughts, it's the most natural desire in the world to want to have a secure attachment (Attachment Theory) with that person.  When there is a threat to that secure attachment we "cry out" (by arguing or being clingy or whatever).  Like an infant that *requires* a parent to take care of its needs who responds by crying frantically when there's a threat to its existence, adults emotionally "cry out" (arguing, clinginess) in the same ways when there's a threat to our own emotional safety due to someone else neglecting (intentional or otherwise) those things that keep us feeling safe. 

Push/pull sends us the message that there is truly no secure attachment (because there isn't).  There is a fleeting feeling of secure attachment in one moment (which is what healthy relationships feel like consistently) and then there's the gut-wrenching, anxiety-ridden feeling of insecure attachment that's induced within you by the other person's behavior. 

In this context I interpret your question as essentially asking how you can better cope with the *natural* gut-wrenching, anxiety-ridden feelings of insecure attachment due to factors that are not within your control to change.  Or simply, how do you feel less of the things that are naturally, humanly felt by anybody - and which I imagine are amplified significantly by DPD.

Thought experiment:  When it comes to your expression of DPD symptoms over time, I wonder what would happen if you were in a relationship with somebody who you could have a truly secure attachment to.  If you knew, and I mean Absolutely Knew, and Fully Trusted that the person you were with, that you loved and adored and would never, ever leave you, that they *consistently* felt the exact same way about you as you do for them, would you be better able to cope with or even be in a better and more emotionally stable environment to possibly recover from DPD? 

[EaglesJuju]

Thank you for your response. 

In this context I interpret your question as essentially asking how you can better cope with the *natural* gut-wrenching, anxiety-ridden feelings of insecure attachment due to factors that are not within your control to change.  Or simply, how do you feel less of the things that are naturally, humanly felt by anybody - and which I imagine are amplified significantly by DPD.

I want to learn how to cope with this natural feelings. You are absolutely correct, that my DPD amplifies the feelings of an insecure attachment.   

Thought experiment:  When it comes to your expression of DPD symptoms over time, I wonder what would happen if you were in a relationship with somebody who you could have a truly secure attachment to.  If you knew, and I mean Absolutely Knew, and Fully Trusted that the person you were with, that you loved and adored and would never, ever leave you, that they *consistently* felt the exact same way about you as you do for them, would you be better able to cope with or even be in a better and more emotionally stable environment to possibly recover from DPD? 

PwDPD tend to have anxious attachment styles. Having a secure attachment is something that we all optimally strive for. I do not what that relationship would be like. Honestly, even the dynamics of a securely attached relationship could make me regress and become overly dependent on that person.

Dependency is normal in any relationship. I suppose the key to dependency is to find a balance. I think dependency is almost a "gray" area, there is not a wrong or right way to be dependent/reliant on another person. The difference between my dependency and "normal" dependency, is I let it affect all aspects of my life and it is excessive.   

I have recovered from the majority of my maladaptive DPD traits. My current situation with my pwBPD has given me the opportunity to really work on independence.     

[Lucky Jim]

Most importantly I have to base my self esteem on myself! No one else will ever be able to fill in what I need because what I need is to find me again! Our self esteem is defined by our likes and dislikes. Her excellent advise to me was "be kind to yourself."  Rebuilding self esteem starts with not tearing ourselves to shreds. How can we heal when we frequently wound ourselves?

Like what you are saying, Giggler82, and happen to agree.  My path out of the dark wood has involved reconnecting with and following the symbolic threads of my life, of who I am as a person.  Finding oneself again is, indeed, the way out of the BPD cave, in my view.  Now I strive to be authentic.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

Your topic brings me straight back to my experiences with my fears in my r/s. I hope that I can shine a little light into the area your fears are in, EaglesJuJu.

Background: There is an event coming up this summer that is very important to me. Planning for it is happening now. I've done it for many years, always with my wife. She has told me that she will be in contact with a guy that she cheated on me with at the event. She says it will be just as friends. I don't trust her there (I've posted a LOT about this already!).

I have been in this situation a few years back, and I did go to the event with her, hoping/negotiating/bargaining/arguing with her not to see a different guy. She did. I was devastated, and it pretty much spoiled the event for me. (We did this two years in a row, with the same guy, pretty much the same story!)

A couple days ago I didn't even realize I was feeling trapped between not one but TWO fears, and a third one closing in:

1. Fear that I'd have a miserable experience at the event like I'd done twice before, starting with conflict and uncertainty which would make leading up to the event difficult instead of fun for me. (And associated fear that I'd make plans and commitments based on unrealistic optimism to do the event with my wife, and at the last minute not have an option to do the event separately)

I was coming to the conclusion that I couldn't risk putting myself in this place again. It just hurt me too much, and I can't have months of dread as I work toward it.

2. Fear that I couldn't do the event without my wife.

3. Fear that doing the event separately from my wife would be such a destructive split that it would hasten the end of our marriage. (I'm not sure how my wife feels, but for me, doing this would make coming back to my marriage harder!)


I was REALLY sad and freaked out over this set of feelings. Then something magic happened. Out of nowhere a possibility of doing this event with somebody new appeared. Suddenly I was moving on to new possibilities. Fear #2 (the one I hadn't even acknowledged yet was receding in the rear view mirror, and I was able to see it for the first time!

A very supportive friend had previously given me the 'homework' to really feel my fear. (I had answered her that I was doing something out of fear of ending my marriage. Because it was the only possible explanation!)

I realized that the fears that drive ME to put up with things in my marriage that aren't good for me is the fear that I cannot survive or thrive without my wife. And I remembered two other pivotal times in my life when I faced an aspect of that fear, realized that it wasn't really true afterall. And then I had the freedom to make choices that fit my values, instead of choices that are running away from my fears. And my life got a LOT better in both prior instances.

[Ziggiddy]

Hi  EaglesJuJu

I am sorry that this is still a struggle for you. Yes it's good to think of it as a growth opportunity when you 'hit a wall' so to speak but I really believe there is some substance to the idea that we repeat what we can't resolve. I would ask a very personal question - one for reflection rather than necessarily canvassing here but do you feel you have grieved the losses that brought you to your situation? I am assuming that your abandonment fears and dependency issue spring from a similar source. Have you explored the sadness that being abandoned really brings?

And it may sound counterintuitive but I have found some great relief in really examining my ideas of blame and forgiveness.

Do you have definitions of those that resonate with your emotions on a personal level? As opposed to an ideology?

Fully grieving is something that is obviously harrowing but it comes from a real sense of the injustice of having been abandoned.

My brother once asked me if I had seen this movie called "It's a Beautiful Life" or similar. it's about a family that ends up in a concentration camp in WWII - not my kind of thing I assure you but being's how it affected him so much - and he is the original granite wall! - I decided to watch it.

The father goes to these unbelievable lengths to shield his son from the awful truth of the situation even to the point of playing a game when he is actually being taken away. It stirred in me a feeling of slight comprehension of what we lose when our parents won't or can't connect with us in an attuned way. What a thing.

Previous to that I simply couldn't access my sense of loss.

Do you feel you understand what you have lost?

Sometimes, well usually (I believe) we can address behaviours and thought patterns by moderating our behaviour but until we get at the heart of where the behaviour comes from it may just be a coat we wear over it

[EaglesJuju]

Thanks GK. I have had this fear/anxiety for my entire life. The fear/anxiety are the core of my DPD. These feelings can be overwhelming at times. The majority of the time the fear makes me worry even more, thus creating more anxiety.

A very supportive friend had previously given me the 'homework' to really feel my fear. (I had answered her that I was doing something out of fear of ending my marriage. Because it was the only possible explanation!)

I am going to try this.

I have done this with smaller things, such as being afraid of stating my opinion to others.

It might be very hard for me to do it on a larger scale, but I am willing to try something different.   

My clinginess, submissiveness, and appeasement is very problematic when I get the feelings of fear of abandonment. My need to constantly reach out becomes almost pathological.  

I wonder if giving myself a little space from my pwBPD would help? Perhaps, I should let him contact me all the time?

I realized that the fears that drive ME to put up with things in my marriage that aren't good for me is the fear that I cannot survive or thrive without my wife. And I remembered two other pivotal times in my life when I faced an aspect of that fear, realized that it wasn't really true afterall. And then I had the freedom to make choices that fit my values, instead of choices that are running away from my fears. And my life got a LOT better in both prior instances.

I rationally know I could survive without my bf, but my emotions tend to eclipse that.  I do avoid my fears quite often.

[Grey Kitty]

I wonder if giving myself a little space from my pwBPD would help? Perhaps, I should let him contact me all the time?

The action could help... .however, I think if you put the focus on him instead of yourself and your choices, you will make more progress, even if the action is the same.

I rationally know I could survive without my bf, but my emotions tend to eclipse that.  I do avoid my fears quite often.

Rationally knowing doesn't do much with the fears, does it? When I'm in the grip of the fears, I don't even consider the question of whether I can survive it or not, let alone whether I can thrive without it.

Sitting with the feelings is really hard work.

One good entry point to that is curiosity--what exactly IS this feeling of fear that I'm trying so hard to avoid? How does it work? Where is it in me? Simply trying to notice what it is, and what it does to me.

[EaglesJuju]

Thanks for the reply Ziggidy. 

I would ask a very personal question - one for reflection rather than necessarily canvassing here but do you feel you have grieved the losses that brought you to your situation? I am assuming that your abandonment fears and dependency issue spring from a similar source. Have you explored the sadness that being abandoned really brings?

I have explored the root of my DPD/abandonment fears. They originate from my childhood and parents.  I never solely focused on the sadness associated with core of my abandonment fears. It is a gaping wound that seems to keep getting ripped open.

And it may sound counterintuitive but I have found some great relief in really examining my ideas of blame and forgiveness.

Do you have definitions of those that resonate with your emotions on a personal level? As opposed to an ideology?

Fully grieving is something that is obviously harrowing but it comes from a real sense of the injustice of having been abandoned.

I do blame myself for my abandonment fears.  My blame is a product of being constantly being told, "It is your fault EaglesJuJu." I have been directly told this throughout my entire life from various people. Constantly being the "scapegoat" or my own tendency to accept responsibility for others behavior largely plays a role in my DPD. 

The maladaptive behaviors of constant appeasement and self-sacrificing behaviors stem from self blame.  In my mind, I believe if I constantly make people happy and put them first, then they will not leave me. This type of thinking is something that I have been working on. 

Do you feel you understand what you have lost?

Sometimes, well usually (I believe) we can address behaviours and thought patterns by moderating our behaviour but until we get at the heart of where the behaviour comes from it may just be a coat we wear over it

I understand what I lose when I tend to rely on certain people for decision making and reassurance.  I struggle sometimes to undo a life time of maladaptive behavior and dysfunctional thinking.

I completely agree with your statement.

[EaglesJuju]

The action could help... .however, I think if you put the focus on him instead of yourself and your choices, you will make more progress, even if the action is the same.

Could you please explain this more?

Rationally knowing doesn't do much with the fears, does it? When I'm in the grip of the fears, I don't even consider the question of whether I can survive it or not, let alone whether I can thrive without it.

Sitting with the feelings is really hard work.

One good entry point to that is curiosity--what exactly IS this feeling of fear that I'm trying so hard to avoid? How does it work? Where is it in me? Simply trying to notice what it is, and what it does to me.

It is very tough, especially since I have such a hard time doing certain things alone. Working on something that is scary for me and by myself is almost terrifying.

I have been so accustomed to living with constant anxiety. I do not even know what it would be like not living with anxiety. My anxiety has exponentially decreased due to my therapy, but I still have it. 

[braveSun]

This is a great topic. I am personally thinking about this a lot these days, as I am in a 30 days/NC and feel immense fears due to either my PTSD (flashbacks of other times before), or due to real betrayal (she might be having an affair right now). I felt sort of 'trapped' a couple of times by my own commitment to not end the relationship for the duration of the period.

Rationally knowing doesn't do much with the fears, does it? When I'm in the grip of the fears, I don't even consider the question of whether I can survive it or not, let alone whether I can thrive without it.

Sitting with the feelings is really hard work.

One good entry point to that is curiosity--what exactly IS this feeling of fear that I'm trying so hard to avoid? How does it work? Where is it in me? Simply trying to notice what it is, and what it does to me.

I fear that I am losing the relationship. That I am failing at the relationship. That I have lost my time and I did convince myself that this person loved me while in fact she did not love me at all.

I have been so accustomed to living with constant anxiety. I do not even know what it would be like not living with anxiety. My anxiety has exponentially decreased due to my therapy, but I still have it. 

This.

I sometimes feel just like this. That somehow, if the anxiety is present, that means everything is as usual. If unexpectedly there comes a great calmness or peacefulness, and I am not being personally involved with it, nor does a support person nor a therapist, than I fear betrayal, and sometimes I get the feeling of not knowing what my reality is.

That's interesting. Not that I cannot feel open to any good new changes in my life. In any 'normal' situation, I might feel a bit of fear for a moment, than look more deeply into the changes I want to make for my own life. But in this situation with a pwBPD, I feel a great deal of fear of the unknown.

Would that qualify for the essence of an insecure attachment?

[EaglesJuju]

That's interesting. Not that I cannot feel open to any good new changes in my life. In any 'normal' situation, I might feel a bit of fear for a moment, than look more deeply into the changes I want to make for my own life. But in this situation with a pwBPD, I feel a great deal of fear of the unknown.

Would that qualify for the essence of an insecure attachment?

Yes. PwBPD have insecure attachments.  The erratic behavior of a pwBPD exacerbates a "fear of the unknown." 

[Grey Kitty]

The action could help... .however, I think if you put the focus on him instead of yourself and your choices, you will make more progress, even if the action is the same.

Could you please explain this more?

I find that when my focus is on what I should do for my wife, or how I should deal with things in our marriage, I'm working within the enmeshed paradigm.

When I manage to shift the focus to what I want, what I need, what my values are, and what actions I could take that would support my values, take care of my needs, and build a life that I want to have... .that is better progress.

You said:

I wonder if giving myself a little space from my pwBPD would help? Perhaps, I should let him contact me all the time?

The action of giving yourself space, and letting him contact you sounds great.

My point is that if you do this because you care about how it will help YOU, instead of what reaction you expect from HIM, it will do more for you.

It is very tough, especially since I have such a hard time doing certain things alone. Working on something that is scary for me and by myself is almost terrifying.

I have been so accustomed to living with constant anxiety. I do not even know what it would be like not living with anxiety. My anxiety has exponentially decreased due to my therapy, but I still have it. 

I don't understand anxiety well myself. In the last year, my wife has experienced anxiety powerful enough that she is incapable of going out and doing things at times. I've never felt this, and am only starting to see it up close. My suggestions are based on what works for me, mostly things I've learned with mindfulness meditation.

I am coping with fears that stop me from doing the thing I'm afraid of, but don't make me hide out in a blanket fort for a day. Given the level of anxiety you are dealing with, you may not be able to use those tools. I think trying to sit with the smaller and easier ones first is an excellent idea.

The 'trick' is to just be with the fear, and feel what it is about. Try not to let your mind run off trying to immediately DO something about the fear. Be gentle with yourself if your mind goes off down that rabbit hole the first 50 times you try. 

[EaglesJuju]

The action of giving yourself space, and letting him contact you sounds great.

My point is that if you do this because you care about how it will help YOU, instead of what reaction you expect from HIM, it will do more for you.

I started doing this yesterday. I have had less anxiety than usual.    I have not figured out why yet. 

I don't understand anxiety well myself. In the last year, my wife has experienced anxiety powerful enough that she is incapable of going out and doing things at times. I've never felt this, and am only starting to see it up close. My suggestions are based on what works for me, mostly things I've learned with mindfulness meditation.

I am coping with fears that stop me from doing the thing I'm afraid of, but don't make me hide out in a blanket fort for a day. Given the level of anxiety you are dealing with, you may not be able to use those tools. I think trying to sit with the smaller and easier ones first is an excellent idea.

The 'trick' is to just be with the fear, and feel what it is about. Try not to let your mind run off trying to immediately DO something about the fear. Be gentle with yourself if your mind goes off down that rabbit hole the first 50 times you try. 

Honestly, my anxiety can be unbearable at times. It can get on a level of me having a hard time even working, but this more of a rarity.

As you stated so well, my mind goes down the rabbit hole on ocassion. It is so frustrating. I get anxiety then I worry, thus creating more anxiety. Then I get frustrated for creating all this anxiety, which adds to more anxiety.

I have been working on mindfulness myself, but it is tough because I have ADD too.  It is a slow process trying to work on both the ADD/DPD.

[patientandclear]

My clinginess, submissiveness, and appeasement is very problematic when I get the feelings of fear of abandonment. My need to constantly reach out becomes almost pathological.  

I wonder if giving myself a little space from my pwBPD would help? Perhaps, I should let him contact me all the time?

Eagles, just wanted to chime in to say that this is how I handled my anxiety when I reconnected with my uBPD ex after 10 months of NC after he left me, then started seeing someone else pretty fast after saying he wanted to try again with me.  My abandonment fears were SO activated with him--they threatened to really turn me into a bowl of jello.  That's why I spent 10 months in NC -- knew I wouldn't survive that intact.  Once I thought I understood BPD and had a handle on how it all worked, I got back in touch, but I was really adamant that I would only go where he led.  If he wanted contact, we had contact.  I rarely initiated.  It DID in fact work for us for quite a while (also think it set a pretty low ceiling of where we could go).  Engulfment is huge with him and this helped greatly with that.  I was always warm and responsive when he reached out.  But I did not.  I needed to know when we had contact that he definitely wanted it.  Wanted me.  I could not be in doubt about whether I would be rejected.

Just typing those sentences is bringing back the submerged pain that lurked in me that whole time.  Because while it DID help me manage these debilitating fears, the truth is, a r/s where I was afraid to initiate was not a full r/s.  Ultimately, ironically, he called me on it -- asked me to ask him to do things.  So I did, finally.  And ... .yep, he turned me down.  He got a lot out of my initiating -- he got to reject me, which for my ex (different from your partner) I think is the main pay-off of a r/s after idealization.  But he was still right that it was weird I always made him ask.

Had we stayed in touch I wouldn't have continued to live like that.  We had gotten more and more reciprocal.  But yeah, there was a long stretch where, in order not to be sunk by my anxiety about rejection, I needed not to be the one to reach out.

[EaglesJuju]

Eagles, just wanted to chime in to say that this is how I handled my anxiety when I reconnected with my uBPD ex after 10 months of NC after he left me, then started seeing someone else pretty fast after saying he wanted to try again with me.  My abandonment fears were SO activated with him--they threatened to really turn me into a bowl of jello.  That's why I spent 10 months in NC -- knew I wouldn't survive that intact.  Once I thought I understood BPD and had a handle on how it all worked, I got back in touch, but I was really adamant that I would only go where he led.  If he wanted contact, we had contact.  I rarely initiated.  It DID in fact work for us for quite a while (also think it set a pretty low ceiling of where we could go).  Engulfment is huge with him and this helped greatly with that.  I was always warm and responsive when he reached out.  But I did not.  I needed to know when we had contact that he definitely wanted it.  Wanted me.  I could not be in doubt about whether I would be rejected.

Just typing those sentences is bringing back the submerged pain that lurked in me that whole time.  Because while it DID help me manage these debilitating fears, the truth is, a r/s where I was afraid to initiate was not a full r/s.  Ultimately, ironically, he called me on it -- asked me to ask him to do things.  So I did, finally.  And ... .yep, he turned me down.  He got a lot out of my initiating -- he got to reject me, which for my ex (different from your partner) I think is the main pay-off of a r/s after idealization.  But he was still right that it was weird I always made him ask.

Had we stayed in touch I wouldn't have continued to live like that.  We had gotten more and more reciprocal.  But yeah, there was a long stretch where, in order not to be sunk by my anxiety about rejection, I needed not to be the one to reach out.

Patientandclear, thanks for the response.    It has been really tough to concurrently working on my issues, while coping with his. Honestly, my DPD/abandonment fears makes things worse. I rationally know about BPD and why my bf is pushing me away. He even directly tells me why he does this type of behavior, but my PD still creates a ridiculous amount of anxiety. My gut feeling tells me what is the truth, but then I second guess myself. Usually to rectify my anxiety/abandonment fears, I would typically look for reassurance (a core feature of DPD). Obviously, I cannot expect this from my bf when he is feeling engulfed. Although, he does say some reassuring things. Although, my abandonment fears indirectly have to do with him, the origin of it has nothing to do with him.

I am slowly realizing, to truly get to the core of my abandonment fears is to actually work through the feelings/emotions and let him constantly contact me. Actually putting myself in a position where I feel "abandoned and alone" is scary, but is really helping. 

[Grey Kitty]

I am slowly realizing, to truly get to the core of my abandonment fears is to actually work through the feelings/emotions and let him constantly contact me. Actually putting myself in a position where I feel "abandoned and alone" is scary, but is really helping. 

 

Sitting with feelings is indeed hard work. Pat yourself on the back--I can't reach through the screen and do it directly