Do they ever have an epiphany moment in the future?

[Terrychango]

Yes will do, I am interested to hear what her Ex gf says. Am going to have a few beers tonight with my brother, am going to give him my phone and ipad or nc will go out the window!

[jjclark]

In my experience, I would say that these epiphany moments occure often.  The whole problem in behavior seems to stem from trying to refrain from feeling guilty/bad when they happen. 

[EaglesJuju]

My pwBPD has these epiphany moments quite often and will take responsibility for his actions/behavior. Although he has these moments often, changing the maladaptive behavior or sustaining responsibility is short lived.

[icom]

Enlighten me: Well, my friend, being well-studied in this grim discipline that is BPD, it wasn’t half as revelatory as it would seem, as we are all intimately acquainted with the welter of behaviours that accompany this disorder; there were no surprises, only confirmations.  If I want to be honest with myself, not only was the exercise completely futile, but the true motivation behind such an escapade was to assume some sort of authoritative position to gain some ascendancy over a scenario that had never once worked to my advantage; the person confessing is always cast in the role of the suppliant.    

Here are some key points that might be of interest:

-   She told me that when she first met me that she felt “safe” in my company, which was a new experience for her.  By extension, I advanced the idea that feeling “safe” for one of the first times in one’s life might add a layer of complexity to one’s existence that is distinctly challenging-if not entirely unpalatable-due to it being so strange and unfamiliar.  She agreed with this, and told me that it terrified her whenever she felt safe for any extended period of time, as there were consequent associations with impending disaster.

-   She is addicted to male attention, as it is practically her only means to maintain a positive self-image.

-   She had exited the relationship many times over the years, but confessed that during these absences that she not only thought of me frequently, but also missed me terribly.  

-   She genuinely appreciated the fact that I understood that she wasn’t deliberately going out of her way to intentionally cause harm.  

 The hardest thing for most people to accept is that their behaviour is only obliquely related to you, and I would encourage anyone who is still grappling with this concept to familiarize themselves with some of the basic literature on Pathological/Immature Ego Defences in order to broaden their perspectives.  

JRT:  Nothing changed.  It wasn’t revelatory to either one of us, as she was already reasonably self-aware of her condition, and I was already a BPD maven after years of diligent study.  All that it amounted to was a pleasant four-hour conversation down by the beach on a late-winter’s day.  There was no, “Hallelujah; what a relief to get that off my chest!” “ I’m glad we’ve got that all sorted out-and out of the way-so that we can  finally get down to the business of having a normal relationship for a change!”   Knowing her limitations, I anticipated a negative reaction from this event, and it wasn’t long in coming.  

 Keeping things in their proper perspective, at the time that we had this conversation, it later emerged that she was already involved (and had been involved for many months) with another man.

If you familiar with BPD and its attendant behaviors, you are your own best epistemic authority in this instance; there are no surprises, and there is no closure.  

[Restored2]

InATimeLapse: Thank you for so eloquently expressing that which I can totally relate to.  Namely, wanting only the very best for my ex-girlfriend, regardless of what the future holds.

Icom: You touched upon some familiar terrain for me.  While she and i were only friends prior to us dating she would say some trigger phrases.  During a pleasant trail walk and discussion, out of the blue she said to me; "This is weird", which I found out to mean was in reference to me being respectful to her as a male.  She also said to me; "This is scary", in reference to her being fearful of intimacy (closeness) with losing herself in the relationship.  She went on to say to me that she was going to hang up her runners from feeling the constant urge to always want to run away from me.  She acknowledged that she didn't know why she felt this way.  I never knew where she was coming from with those comments until after she broke up with me.  I get it now.  Did yours abruptly exit your relationship and coldly cut you off too?

[icom]

  Did yours abruptly exit your relationship and coldly cut you off too?

Shamelessly borrowing from a contribution recently made by "Rifka", one day I finally acknowledged that the relationship was like a carton of milk that had spoiled.  It had reached its "best before" date years earlier, and no amount of wishful thinking on my part would ever restore the now curdled constituents back to their former glory. 

Despite being ravaged by her disorder over the years, I parted from her life with love and affection.  I went for a walk with her by the sea, told her how much I loved her, but reminded her that we were fundamentally incompatible.  She was very upset-understandably-but the parting was as important for her development (if there was to be one) as it was for mine.

As was previously noted, someone else was already in the picture, so she had a soft landing.  I, on the other hand, did not fare as well, and the subsequent six months after the separation were hellish beyond measure.

I'm just happy to be reasonably free and clear of this thing.   

[Restored2]

Thanks for sharing, icom.  "Rifka" said it well.  Your milk analogy sums it up too.  Glad to hear that you were able to part from your ex's life with love and affection, including the opportunity for both of your developments through this.  This is the classy way to part that BPD people seem to constantly skip when they breakup.  I have been living out the hellish aftermath of my relationship 5 months post breakup, so I can relate to your rough landing.

[JRT]

Enlighten me: Well, my friend, being well-studied in this grim discipline that is BPD, it wasn’t half as revelatory as it would seem, as we are all intimately acquainted with the welter of behaviours that accompany this disorder; there were no surprises, only confirmations.  If I want to be honest with myself, not only was the exercise completely futile, but the true motivation behind such an escapade was to assume some sort of authoritative position to gain some ascendancy over a scenario that had never once worked to my advantage; the person confessing is always cast in the role of the suppliant.    

Here are some key points that might be of interest:

-   She told me that when she first met me that she felt “safe” in my company, which was a new experience for her.  By extension, I advanced the idea that feeling “safe” for one of the first times in one’s life might add a layer of complexity to one’s existence that is distinctly challenging-if not entirely unpalatable-due to it being so strange and unfamiliar.  She agreed with this, and told me that it terrified her whenever she felt safe for any extended period of time, as there were consequent associations with impending disaster.

-   She is addicted to male attention, as it is practically her only means to maintain a positive self-image.

-   She had exited the relationship many times over the years, but confessed that during these absences that she not only thought of me frequently, but also missed me terribly.  

-   She genuinely appreciated the fact that I understood that she wasn’t deliberately going out of her way to intentionally cause harm.  

 The hardest thing for most people to accept is that their behaviour is only obliquely related to you, and I would encourage anyone who is still grappling with this concept to familiarize themselves with some of the basic literature on Pathological/Immature Ego Defences in order to broaden their perspectives.  

JRT:  Nothing changed.  It wasn’t revelatory to either one of us, as she was already reasonably self-aware of her condition, and I was already a BPD maven after years of diligent study.  All that it amounted to was a pleasant four-hour conversation down by the beach on a late-winter’s day.  There was no, “Hallelujah; what a relief to get that off my chest!” “ I’m glad we’ve got that all sorted out-and out of the way-so that we can  finally get down to the business of having a normal relationship for a change!”   Knowing her limitations, I anticipated a negative reaction from this event, and it wasn’t long in coming.  

 Keeping things in their proper perspective, at the time that we had this conversation, it later emerged that she was already involved (and had been involved for many months) with another man.

If you familiar with BPD and its attendant behaviors, you are your own best epistemic authority in this instance; there are no surprises, and there is no closure.  

So if she missed you terribly during these recycles, why did she keep away?

YOu are saying that she HAD the revelation and then became eventually angry because of it?

[enlighten me]

Hi again icom. Yes I realise that if they open up to you there is probably an alterier motive. Even so I would still like to hear both my exs admit to what they did and show remorse no matter how fleeting it may be. I suppose apart from my ego I also want this so I know that the mothers of my children arent remorseless monsters.

As the day go on it they mean less to me and the want for this validation decreases. I suppose one day I wont care less about it.

[hergestridge]

Enlighten me: Well, my friend, being well-studied in this grim discipline that is BPD, it wasn’t half as revelatory as it would seem, as we are all intimately acquainted with the welter of behaviours that accompany this disorder; there were no surprises, only confirmations.  If I want to be honest with myself, not only was the exercise completely futile, but the true motivation behind such an escapade was to assume some sort of authoritative position to gain some ascendancy over a scenario that had never once worked to my advantage; the person confessing is always cast in the role of the suppliant.    

Here are some key points that might be of interest:

-   She told me that when she first met me that she felt “safe” in my company, which was a new experience for her.  By extension, I advanced the idea that feeling “safe” for one of the first times in one’s life might add a layer of complexity to one’s existence that is distinctly challenging-if not entirely unpalatable-due to it being so strange and unfamiliar.  She agreed with this, and told me that it terrified her whenever she felt safe for any extended period of time, as there were consequent associations with impending disaster.

-   She is addicted to male attention, as it is practically her only means to maintain a positive self-image.

-   She had exited the relationship many times over the years, but confessed that during these absences that she not only thought of me frequently, but also missed me terribly.  

-   She genuinely appreciated the fact that I understood that she wasn’t deliberately going out of her way to intentionally cause harm.  

 The hardest thing for most people to accept is that their behaviour is only obliquely related to you, and I would encourage anyone who is still grappling with this concept to familiarize themselves with some of the basic literature on Pathological/Immature Ego Defences in order to broaden their perspectives.  

JRT:  Nothing changed.  It wasn’t revelatory to either one of us, as she was already reasonably self-aware of her condition, and I was already a BPD maven after years of diligent study.  All that it amounted to was a pleasant four-hour conversation down by the beach on a late-winter’s day.  There was no, “Hallelujah; what a relief to get that off my chest!” “ I’m glad we’ve got that all sorted out-and out of the way-so that we can  finally get down to the business of having a normal relationship for a change!”   Knowing her limitations, I anticipated a negative reaction from this event, and it wasn’t long in coming.  

 Keeping things in their proper perspective, at the time that we had this conversation, it later emerged that she was already involved (and had been involved for many months) with another man.

If you familiar with BPD and its attendant behaviors, you are your own best epistemic authority in this instance; there are no surprises, and there is no closure.  

So if she missed you terribly during these recycles, why did she keep away?

YOu are saying that she HAD the revelation and then became eventually angry because of it?

It sounds absurd but it makes sense in BPD-land. The good stuff can't be put into practice. There is no learning, only shame. And showing your love is just a sign of weakness.

[JRT]

makes me incredibly sad

[icom]

Restored2: Although the advice seems trite, time-worn, and sticks to forums like these with the persistence of axle grease, it nevertheless still has merit.  Life does improve.  I'd say that a minimum six month investment is necessary to recalibrate yourself back to normal, and another six months to purge yourself of the toxins built-up after years of exposure. 

Depending upon the exposure, and the time invested, you will emerge from this experience better than ever before. 

The ultimate irony here is that I spent years trying to winnow out a solution to the BPD mystery only to discover that it was right under my nose the whole time, and by studying the vagaries of the disorder, I inadvertently stumbled upon myself for the first time in my life... .which rather startled me. 

JRT:

  In order to fully grasp the severity of the disorder, it is necessary to adopt their reference frame and not yours. 

The most intense emotions arise in the formation, maintenance, and termination of attachment partnerships.  BPD, being intensely hypersensitive to emotion, cannot bear the tumult. 

Here is the crux: They are identical to us, have identical needs, yet these needs can never be satisfied, for to do so would mean their virtual annihilation.

They reside in a diminished ego state, so when their emotions go off the scale, they attribute you as the source of this fault of theirs. 

No, JRT, there was no revelation on anyone's part.  Her admission does not confer anything apart from a minor acknowledgement that she resides in a vastly different reality than mine.  Ultimately, it was an empty gesture. 

[JRT]

Thats an understandable thing to wrap my brain around, but does it make any difference to the concept if my relationship was absent of the kind of tumult and raging that seem to very much define most BPD relationships? We nevver argued or disagreed. Nor did she register any complaints with me.

[jjclark]

JRT,

I can understand the questioning behind all this.  Why wouldn't they talk about it, why were there never any arguments? 

Probably because a person can hold it all in, that is how we end up being painted black and get no closure really.  They just walk away with a bag full of our wrongness without ever talking about it.  That is all we become, we cannot be good and bad at the same time.  It's late on a Friday, I hope this makes sense.

Some people express it, some people stay pretty passive.  BPD adds an extreme to this behavior. 

[Restored2]

icom: Thank you for your insightful advice and words of encouragement.  Much appreciated.  I like the way you use words to paint pictures.  This is quite the talent for communicating.  Sounds like you had a personal enlightenment of sorts through your self searching to stumble upon yourself.

jjclark: Your explanation seems bang on for the walking away of a BPD person, without them providing a proper explanation of their own for closure.

[JRT]

JRT,

I can understand the questioning behind all this.  Why wouldn't they talk about it, why were there never any arguments? 

Probably because a person can hold it all in, that is how we end up being painted black and get no closure really.  They just walk away with a bag full of our wrongness without ever talking about it.  That is all we become, we cannot be good and bad at the same time.  It's late on a Friday, I hope this makes sense.

Some people express it, some people stay pretty passive.  BPD adds an extreme to this behavior. 

Sure that makes sense... .I realize that you did not live my relationship so it is difficult to have perspective... .but there was really nothing to hold in at least that I had done or had treated her... .she got the royal treatment from me. Mind you, I was no push over that doted on her and got treated like a door mat; I was just good. Certainly BPD had kicked in at some point and made her mind simply scream. It was the very goal that she had prayed for her whole life... .she FINALLY had attained what was so elusive to her for so long... .and then she had to run. I really think that in her case, there was not much more to it than that.

[enlighten me]

Thats an understandable thing to wrap my brain around, but does it make any difference to the concept if my relationship was absent of the kind of tumult and raging that seem to very much define most BPD relationships? We nevver argued or disagreed. Nor did she register any complaints with me.

Hi JRT

I never realised my ex wife ws most likely BPD as we never argued. It was only after I split up with my exgf and was looking at her behaviour I realised that she was a BPD queen type. While researching BPD I then realised my ex wife was a BPD waif type. Even though my exgf had more obvious behaviour I realised that they both did the same things. It was a shock as what attracted me to my exgf was how different to my ex wife she was. She was confident, outgoing and independent. Underneath though they were pretty much the same person.

[JRT]

I am beginning to see BPD in my ex wife as well as with my exfiance... .what is a queen type?

[enlighten me]

Queen types are very outgoing with a sense of grandeur. They like to show how wonderful they are.

[Mutt]

Dr. Christine Lawson identifies 4 sub-type roles in her book "Understanding The Borderline Mother" which displays in borderline personality disorder.

The Waif The Hermit The Queen The Witch

The Waif is helpless The Hermit is fearful The Queen is controlling The Witch is punishing

It's not uncommon for all 4 roles to be exhibited in BPD although some roles may be more dominant in pwBPD.

My ex is shows more Queen / Witch and I have seen Waif, Hermit less so.

A rare type are Medean witches, they actually kill their kids.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch

[JRT]

Interesting... .I looked at the types first and thought, "gee, she has a bit of all of them in her" then saw your explanation... .thanks for providing... .mine is a mix of waif and hermit.

Here is a question for you: had mine not broken up the way that she did in the past and then recycled as well as this time, I would be hard pressed to justify her as a pwBPD at all. Although there were signs of BPD there, they were very subtle. It was the breaking up and here behavior after the fact that screams BPD. Is this possible at all? Or could it be something else? Before I found myself here, I thought that she was an ACOA and that was pretty much the end of the story.

[enlighten me]

I thought my ex wife was histrionic. It was only as I read up on BPD that I realised she ticked most of the DSM 4 criteria. After speaking to her mum and going through the DSM with her we realised she ticked all nine.

Even after that I still have moments of doubt.

Without a professional diagnosis we are just guessing but if the cap fits then its a pretty good sign your onto something.

The queen and witch types are the more obvious because you get direct conflict. Their behaviour leaps out at you.

[JRT]

I can see... .yeah, mine said almost nothing that would lead me to believe that ANYTHING was wrong... .that she had an itch! All this couldn't have been any more out of the blue.

Funny... .its just guessing; the aftermath is just us guessing and trying to piece together what the hell went wrong. The person I can ask is just a phone call away and I have spent the past four months trying to solve a Rubiks cube. 

[enlighten me]

Its funny that when your emeshed in the relationship you dont notice the little warning signs and comments. Its only after that things start coming back to you that now seem odd. Its these little itches that when you add them all together show a more disturbing image of the relationship.

My ex wife only lashed out twice in the 14 years we were together. The first was the worst when she hit me with a sauce pan. She appologised and explained it away that she thought i was taking the mickey out of her cooking. Also it was that time of the month and hrr mum had been winding her up. I accepted it as a one off. The next was several years later when I was awoken with a sore nose. She acted as if she had rolled over in her sleep and elbowed me by accident but it felt more malicious. I know I snore and she complained about It so It felt like she did it on purpose.

[JRT]

yup... .I have thought about those warning signs... .yeah, they were something that I should have asked hard questions about... .but at the same time on the next one, I am afraid that I will... .I know that sounds ridiculous but I am concerned that this relationship will cause during the next one to put everything she says and does underneath a microscope of suspicion and paranoia to the point that it is not enjoyable or that she feels the disconnect... .

[enlighten me]

I understand your concern. I feel the same way now. I stupidly ignored the signs when I got together with my exgf. Probably thought that I couldnt be that unlucky to meet someone like my ex wife again. I ignored what my gut was telling me. This may seem a stupid thing to say but in a way im glad as it meant I wasnt as paranoid as was capable of trusting again.

[JRT]

I COMPLETELY understand... .I am entirely afraid that this might happen... .I am also concerned that I will ever be able to love like I did her... .I KNOW that I will never be able to propose like I did (flew her to Europe and got on my knee in font of an ancient fountain in an ancient city... women swooned at the story, )

I am also, now, concerned about another thing: I don't think its about luck. Now that I know about BPD, I THINK that I attract them. It's difficult to confirm since it is years after the fact, but I am wondering if I attract them/choose them! If that's the case, I am doomed to this again!

[Hazelrah]

Now that I know about BPD, I THINK that I attract them. It's difficult to confirm since it is years after the fact, but I am wondering if I attract them/choose them!

This could very well be true.  Borderlines are often drawn to people with certain characteristics--it might be an opportunity to eventually dig in to what those characteristics are in your particular case.  It's also helpful to turn that comment around, as you hinted at in the second sentence--do you think you might be attracted to some of the tendencies pwBPD exhibit... .especially during the idealization phase?

[JRT]

I'm a rescuer... .I like to help and fix... .my second date with my ex, I had gone to her house to help her fix things.

[Hazelrah]

I'm a rescuer... .I like to help and fix... .my second date with my ex, I had gone to her house to help her fix things.

Yep... .me, too.  Rescuer and fixer here.  I got so good at it that, right before my BPD wife disappeared, she said I was almost like a father in our relationship.  Gotta say it felt like that, too... .37 year-old woman acting like a 16 year-old at best--I didn't know any other way but to try and fix each and every one of her messes.  I got really good at hiding my resentment about that, BTW.

Looking at it honestly, what do you think being a rescuer does for your self-esteem?  (1) Purely a charitable/altruistic motive, or (2) is it a strong desire to feel needed?  Note: I'm deep into number two.