How to choose healthy levels of intimacy and sharing?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

For the last four months, my marriage has been in crisis. I've needed a lot of support, and have got it from quite a wide range of people.

I've picked several people in my life and chosen to open up to them about various issues and aspects of it. I've also shared a LOT on the Staying board here.

I *think* I'm making healthy choices... .but I'm also wondering what that even looks like! One thing I realize I am doing is deciding that certain topics are less wise/safe with certain people, and simply choosing to avoid them.

Two of my closest supportive friends are people that I've known for a while, but hadn't relied on like that at all before. I would say I took a bit of a risk by opening up... .and they have both proven to be very trustworthy.

Some of the people I've spoken with are also friends with my wife. One in particular is sweet and supportive... .but also is very codependent in at least half of the significant r/s in her life. I don't expect her to have the skill to avoid 'leaking' things between me and my wife, or to keep herself from triangulating with us. Especially when she was seeing my wife a lot, I was careful not to tell her anything that I hadn't already told my wife, or that I didn't want my wife to know.

I've got some friends who are VERY sex-positive; For specific issues relating to sex or non-traditional r/s, I choose those people.

My FOO is not good with validating feelings, although not absolutely toxic about it [long story skipped]. I asked my parents more for the sort of logistical support that they are very good at providing. I took my mom's typical but misguided attempts to be supportive/validating as the intended kindness, and accepted that I wasn't likely to get deeper understanding, and chose not to risk looking for it.

My sister is much more supportive, but is much more traditional and Christian. She's pretty open minded, but I'm choosing not to discuss those areas with her either. She is much more validating than my parents.   I've filed away that I want to find safe ways to build more openness and intimacy with her going forward.


... .then there is the elephant in the room... .my wife. You know, the one I've been enmeshed with for a loong time, and am just trying to get away from that now!

A decade ago, I felt I could share everything with her, and did and had been for a long time. At least at the time, I thought it went well. Eventually our r/s dynamic changed, and her abusive behavior ramped up. It became rather clear that it wasn't safe to share some things with her, but I did anyway... .often to bad results.

Three years ago, I found this site, found some tools, and started assembling a team of other people who could and would support me emotionally besides my wife. By this time I was no longer sharing everything with her, at least!

And today... .I'm finding that I want to be keeping an eye on myself while I interact with my wife--to make sure that I don't let things go into unsafe territory. Places that would push us apart needlessly. Things that would (previously) have led to a dysregulated rage or silent treatment.

I've got a network of supporters (including all of you as part of it!) that my wife knows nothing of or very little of. Anything that goes on here doesn't get shared with her. Conversations I have where I speak of my feelings about her aren't things she is at all privy to. I don't hide the existence of support for me that doesn't involve her, but I don't mention it much either.

So I filter a lot what I share with my wife. And it feels uncomfortable. Sometimes unsatisfying too.

Yet I know that opening up the floodgates isn't the right solution either. Honestly, if my wife took a magic instant-mental-emtional-health-and-relationship-skills pill... .the kind that doesn't exist... .I still don't think that going back where I was before is healthy.

I think what I would like would be to feel SAFE with her, and not that I need to hide things to protect myself from her... .and to also acknowledge that some areas of importance in my life aren't ones that I should or could share with her... .the same way I limit things with close friends.

Thoughts & ideas?

[Grey Kitty]

For the last four months, my marriage has been in crisis. I've needed a lot of support, and have got it from quite a wide range of people.

I've picked several people in my life and chosen to open up to them about various issues and aspects of it. I've also shared a LOT on the Staying board here.

I *think* I'm making healthy choices... .but I'm also wondering what that even looks like! One thing I realize I am doing is deciding that certain topics are less wise/safe with certain people, and simply choosing to avoid them.

Two of my closest supportive friends are people that I've known for a while, but hadn't relied on like that at all before. I would say I took a bit of a risk by opening up... .and they have both proven to be very trustworthy.

Some of the people I've spoken with are also friends with my wife. One in particular is sweet and supportive... .but also is very codependent in at least half of the significant r/s in her life. I don't expect her to have the skill to avoid 'leaking' things between me and my wife, or to keep herself from triangulating with us. Especially when she was seeing my wife a lot, I was careful not to tell her anything that I hadn't already told my wife, or that I didn't want my wife to know.

I've got some friends who are VERY sex-positive; For specific issues relating to sex or non-traditional r/s, I choose those people.

My FOO is not good with validating feelings, although not absolutely toxic about it [long story skipped]. I asked my parents more for the sort of logistical support that they are very good at providing. I took my mom's typical but misguided attempts to be supportive/validating as the intended kindness, and accepted that I wasn't likely to get deeper understanding, and chose not to risk looking for it.

My sister is much more supportive, but is much more traditional and Christian. She's pretty open minded, but I'm choosing not to discuss those areas with her either. She is much more validating than my parents.   I've filed away that I want to find safe ways to build more openness and intimacy with her going forward.


... .then there is the elephant in the room... .my wife. You know, the one I've been enmeshed with for a loong time, and am just trying to get away from that now!

A decade ago, I felt I could share everything with her, and did and had been for a long time. At least at the time, I thought it went well. Eventually our r/s dynamic changed, and her abusive behavior ramped up. It became rather clear that it wasn't safe to share some things with her, but I did anyway... .often to bad results.

Three years ago, I found this site, found some tools, and started assembling a team of other people who could and would support me emotionally besides my wife. By this time I was no longer sharing everything with her, at least!

And today... .I'm finding that I want to be keeping an eye on myself while I interact with my wife--to make sure that I don't let things go into unsafe territory. Places that would push us apart needlessly. Things that would (previously) have led to a dysregulated rage or silent treatment.

I've got a network of supporters (including all of you as part of it!) that my wife knows nothing of or very little of. Anything that goes on here doesn't get shared with her. Conversations I have where I speak of my feelings about her aren't things she is at all privy to. I don't hide the existence of support for me that doesn't involve her, but I don't mention it much either.

So I filter a lot what I share with my wife. And it feels uncomfortable. Sometimes unsatisfying too.

Yet I know that opening up the floodgates isn't the right solution either. Honestly, if my wife took a magic instant-mental-emtional-health-and-relationship-skills pill... .the kind that doesn't exist... .I still don't think that going back where I was before is healthy.

I think what I would like would be to feel SAFE with her, and not that I need to hide things to protect myself from her... .and to also acknowledge that some areas of importance in my life aren't ones that I should or could share with her... .the same way I limit things with close friends.

Thoughts & ideas?

[vortex of confusion]

I am interested in this conversation as I have been asking myself, "What does healthy intimacy look like?" I had been toying with posting something about intimacy on the staying board but could never quite articulate any kind of coherent thought.

Some of the thoughts that I have had related to intimacy are:

-I want to feel safe within the relationship. (This is something that can be applied to ALL of my close relationships.)

-I want to feel like I have a choice as to whether or not I share. I recognize that there is this dynamic between my husband and I where we share almost every single detail of our lives. I feel smothered at times.

-I want to feel like the other person genuinely WANTS to be involved with me. I am tired of the half azzed attempts at intimacy/connection/whatever.

-I want quality rather than quantity. My husband seems to think that being in the same space together is the same as being connected. Physical proximity is not the same as having an emotional connection or any kind of intimacy.

-I want the other person to be able to fully separate emotional intimacy from sexual intimacy.

[livednlearned]

So I filter a lot what I share with my wife. And it feels uncomfortable. Sometimes unsatisfying too.

Can you say more about what feels uncomfortable, and how that is different from unsatisfying? Also, you mention the word "filter" but that seems similar to a boundary, no? I could see how "filter" might have a negative connotation, especially when you're thinking about someone who should be your most intimate emotional confidante. You want to share, but don't feel safe doing so, and must filter what you say. As though you are not "good" because you are not sharing everything. Is there a feeling when you filter that this is an act of betrayal?

[Grey Kitty]

Can you say more about what feels uncomfortable, and how that is different from unsatisfying? Also, you mention the word "filter" but that seems similar to a boundary, no? I could see how "filter" might have a negative connotation, especially when you're thinking about someone who should be your most intimate emotional confidante. You want to share, but don't feel safe doing so, and must filter what you say. As though you are not "good" because you are not sharing everything. Is there a feeling when you filter that this is an act of betrayal?

It feels uncomfortable in two ways for me.

The first is that it is a change of an old habit (even one that didn't work very well), and behaving differently from my 20+ year pattern feels strange in that way.

The second is that my verbal processing isn't that much faster than my talking... .I've got lots of concerns about what I don't want to say, and what I do want to say.

• I'm working to stop the invalidating things. [Yes, I still tend toward JADEing]



• I'm trying to be careful about what I tell her. (For example, I'm struggling with my decision to stay committed to her, given her behavior toward me. I know that telling her I'm not sure if I'm going to leave or not is NOT a good thing to do in a r/s!)



• I'm working on being more validationg.



• I'm trying really hard to de-enmesh with her, and see things which are her choices and her issues as hers... .which I can appreciate her sharing with me... .rather than OURS, where I have a good reason to have an opinion on what is actually done.



• We have a lot of unresolved conflict points, and I'm triggered by some, and so is she. They are on both of our minds. I try NOT to bring them up. I'd like to think I do pretty well. She also brings them up, and I feel like I need to steer the conversation away from them (outside of MC), at least most of the time... .because things go downhill rapidly.

And as I said, my verbal processing isn't particularly fast. When I'm talking to somebody without all this stuff, I can relax and just have a natural feeling conversation, and enjoy it. I used to have conversations like that with my wife. Not so much these days.

I wouldn't say it feels like a betrayal to me... .but I would say it feels like a loss. I guess that freedom to share everything with my wife is a loss that I haven't really grieved yet.

[livednlearned]

it is a change of an old habit (even one that didn't work very well), and behaving differently from my 20+ year pattern feels strange in that way.

Strange, uncomfortable, unsatisfying... .these are words I might use to describe trips to the dentist 

It seems like there might be more... .I don't know the word to describe them... .core? heart-felt? feelings if you are changing 20+ years of behavior. That's why filter seems to not quite describe it. We create boundaries with space as much as we do with language, or lack of language. That's a big change, does it dislodge some deeper feelings?

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, what I'm doing with my wife really is another act of creating boundaries... .when I am close to her, keeping my thoughts my own.

I chose the word uncomfortable carefully--Much growth involves pushing yourself to do something that feels uncomfortable. Words of wisdom I found somewhere:

Just because doing something feels uncomfortable is not a reason to avoid doing it.

I 'spose the same applies to the dentist 

LnL, have you had good or bad experiences when you chose to be more intimate (or vulnerable) with people as you were recovering from your marriage/divorce? I know you went through some serious growth along that path.

[livednlearned]

Just because doing something feels uncomfortable is not a reason to avoid doing it.

Oh wow. Words to live by!

I 'spose the same applies to the dentist 

They do put their hands in your mouth. Then drill into your head. As far as strange and uncomfortable goes, that's up there. 

LnL, have you had good or bad experiences when you chose to be more intimate (or vulnerable) with people as you were recovering from your marriage/divorce? I know you went through some serious growth along that path.

I had to learn how to create good experiences by making some painful mistakes. And I've also been very lucky in how those lessons presented themselves. Two old BFs contacted me after my marriage ended, both lived in different states. That meant there was a physical boundary that made it easier to deal with the emotional boundaries I needed, but didn't know how to create. With both BFs I was way too emotionally vulnerable without anything that goes with it. Safe for me, but also totally empty. They were like fantasies, I created these mirages and could see my stuff so clearly. Talk about a gift.

I saw how I work. First BF: I rush in and share everything and then get hurt when I'm not "good" enough for him to move and be with me. Second BF: I rush in and share everything and then when he talks about moving here I push him away. My thing is engulfment more than abandonment, so the long-distance stuff is a bit of a hide-out for someone like me.

I kinda got this aha moment. This is my stuff. I keep looking for men who will be the other actor in my script.

So when I started dating my current SO, I had a clue. I knew what I was up to. That made it much easier to really see who he was, because I wasn't mindlessly playing out the drama in my head. The emotions still come up, that hasn't gone away. But they don't drag me around anymore. They come up, I feel them, we agree it's ok to settle down, things are safe, move along.

There are so many things in my life I feel ashamed about, and SO is a very stand up straightforward person. I could easily feel that he's too good for me. Old me would want to share everything and then see if he still loved me, like a test. Now I let things come up when they feel right, they're memories now, and I did the work of forgiving and loving myself so that there is less expectation that SO will do it for me.

This stuff is hard to describe. I don't know if I'm making any sense 

[doubleAries]

Grey Kitty, I want to share a boiled down experience of my own with you, because while it may not be the same thing, there are some parallels.

As you already know, I spent 18 years married to (and a year and a half living together before the marriage) a bipolar and PD guy. There was ALWAYS tension. ALWAYS. I began to walk on eggshells in ways I didn't even think I was capable of, and it was a lot like the story about the boiling frog. I did a lot of things to try to soothe myself and keep myself distant from the turmoil. I said to myself "look, you don't just bail out when the going gets tough" (and like my T told me in a session--"good thinking in the wrong situation". When there were blow ups and rage fits and silent treatments (which there always were) I tried to tell myself "I don't have to bite this bait. This isn't my problem unless I decide to make it my problem. This doesn't have to effect me--I can slide it right off".

When I moved out to get some space to decide what I wanted to do, I basically sat on my couch after work just stunned and amazed at how great that "space" felt. I saw myself very differently. I got to be myself without the eggshells. I also came face to face with a reality that sneaked up on me--that those ideas were good for situations... .NOT living arrangements. For example, exH regularly tried to convince me that I was fat, lazy, and ugly. Since I am 5' 7" and 120 pounds, I knew for sure I wasn't fat. Since I was and am the only managerial person in my company that grosses almost a half million $ per year, I knew I wasn't lazy. I also know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so maybe I'm not ugly. See? NOT effected!

What I did not realize was that the underlying message was having a deep impact on me. The message of "I don't like you, your role in my life is to be my projection whipping tool, my scapegoat because that's what you deserve". Sometimes the line between being supportive and loyal, and being a scapegoat looks pretty murky. Maybe that line ISN'T murky, but it sure can look that way sometimes.

For years exH would rant about how he hated where we lived, he hated the stupid job we were doing, and he was so much smarter and better than me but ended up stuck with me because of his stupid mental illness--if it wasn't for mental illness, he'd be in the proper station in life he really deserved. I'd ask him "if it's so horrible, why are you still here?" but I'd also tell myself "just like everyone else, he needs the freedom and space to blow off steam--he's just frustrated and if I really care, then I should try to understand, even if his articulation is crude". His answer was always the same and it was the truth--"because I'm afraid to leave and start over". Because of my own excuses for him, it took me more than 10 years (10 years!) to suddenly have that brick to the forehead of realization: "GEEZ--I don't even exist in that answer! It's not 'because I love you and want to work things out' or even ANYTHING at all to do with me! He doesn't even bother blowing smoke up my butt because he doesn't have to!"

I was the frog in the boiling water. You are right--just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean we should avoid it. But neither should it become "the norm", the warm familiar pile of poop.

exH was not capable of the genuine and sincere emotional interaction required of an intimate relationship. That's clear to me now. But for 20 years (20 years!) I somewhat secretly believed he could eventually, with time and patience, become capable. That means I really believed he WAS capable, but just wasn't doing it. The fact is he wasn't, isn't and won't be capable. I was living a fantasy about the future--a future I wanted so badly that I was willing to live in a constant state of "uncomfortable, strange, and dissatisfying".

Not saying YOU should leave. Just saying you should be careful about becoming a boiling frog. And compromising your standards, desires, boundaries, --everything, really-- to the point of zero. I also tried to divide my life into 2 basic groups--the tension with the H, and the people I could actually share with--as a substitute for a satisfying intimate relationship.

The next person I sleep with will be someone I love and that loves me. I will feel safe, valued, and trusted by this person, and pleased to offer the same in return. Maybe that person and I won't share every single thing (and lose our individuality), but it will be comfortable overall. And I absolutely will not compromise that, I will not settle for less (over and over) in order to "accommodate". I will never be backed into a corner again.  Loving someone else shouldn't have to mean sacrificing myself. And if that means I'll be celibate for years, or even the rest of my life, then so be it.

[Grey Kitty]

I watched four Brené Brown videos on YouTube in the last couple days. I loved how ... .vulnerable she was about being dragged into vulnerability kicking and screaming.

Her findings on vulnerability came from her research on shame. She said that shame comes up differently for men and women. And spent 98.5% of her time on the woman's perspective--While I think I'm understanding that side, it doesn't seem to be helping me much to deal with my male version of shame. [Moving back to vulnerability again now... .]

One video was a conversation with Oprah about the wrong kind of people to share your shame with, and six things you don't want to get when you open up. My wife isn't safe for me to do this with right now. And how important it is to have just ONE person in your life you can share like this with, and if you have two or three, you are unbelievably blessed! Then Brené mentioned that perhaps the best possible friend is the one who blows it. And calls you a bit later with a sincere apology for blowing it because they were triggered by their own shame.

Thinking of my wife, I feel like I've got two fairly well established paths. The enmeshed share everything path. The cut all connection/intimacy path. I'm looking for a third and healthier path now. I think it is closer to the cutting contact path. I may need to walk down that one a little ways before forging off in a new direction.

I feel the pull of the first one strongly. The desire to share all my realizations with my wife. I guess it is the desire to pull her in with my vulnerability. And I'm realizing that I don't want to pull her in. I want her to choose to come in on her own. And it is so so so hard to quietly wait for that. Or to give up on her doing it.

The really good thing is that I feel like I'm doing it right--finding people who are earning my trust, who are proving themselves to be safe for me to be vulnerable with. Relatively new friendships, a year or two old, or maybe five years old, but really deepening recently. Starting out right is a lot easier than fixing what has a lot of messed up history to clean up after, and I shouldn't expect anything different there!