BPD Wife - seeking advice and input

[Monolith]

Hi All,

Quick summary:

Married to my BPD wife (Diagnosed 6 years ago) for 9 years.  been together 10.  We have a 3 year old son together and my other sons who are 14 and 18. 

She wants another kid.  I don't.  Normal huh?  Well everything has bee turned upside down and she basically said I am the cause of her illness (I am not, it was her mom) and all of the problems in her life.  She keeps threatening to leave.  I used to resist, but now I am considering leaving myself.  She yells at everyone, even our 3 year old.  I am his oasis sometimes.  She can be a great mom then when things get bad she 'can't function' and lays there.  She complains that I 'make her work' and she is 'just a paycheck'.  She wants to stay home, which I do not make enough to support, and take care of our son.  She says she is 'missing out on her son' and nobody should have to miss out on their kids.  She also threatens to kill herself and just 'disappear' often.  Every morning and night she yells at me until she leaves or falls asleep.  I dread interacting with her.  I've tried not saying anything, or pointing out my side of things but all in vain.

I feel like I am in love with an empty vessel who makes a lot of noise.  She complains about the life I've given her, constantly, and says she is giving up.  She is trying to trigger my savior syndrome but i'm not buying it this time.  I can't.  I am an empty shell.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ColdEthyl]

First of all... .

Second of all... .

Third of all... .we understand.

I will say start with reading the tools on this site. Using SET is an easy one to start with to communicate with your pwBPD. This behavior is not unusual at all, and hopefully we can help

Often times when pwBPD are upset, they will lash out and blame everything and everyone around them, because they cannot take any blame themselves. Sometimes, they don't even know why they feel bad.

It sounds like maybe she thinks if she was a stay at home mom she would be happier. Is her work stressful?

[waverider]

Welcome and I hope we can help you get your thoughts back in alignment.

First and obvious question, How old is your wife and is triggered by her body clock running out of time for more kids?

Is there any particular aspect about your wifes behavior that has deteriorated lately?

Is there any chance menopause may be kicking in as an additional trigger?

Increase in behavior like this can often be triggered by a perception of time running out for some reason, whether it be real or imaginary

[Monolith]

First of all... .

Second of all... .

Third of all... .we understand.

I will say start with reading the tools on this site. Using SET is an easy one to start with to communicate with your pwBPD. This behavior is not unusual at all, and hopefully we can help

Often times when pwBPD are upset, they will lash out and blame everything and everyone around them, because they cannot take any blame themselves. Sometimes, they don't even know why they feel bad.

It sounds like maybe she thinks if she was a stay at home mom she would be happier. Is her work stressful?

Thanks for your response and reassurance.  I've read through the SET information before.  It's hard to stick to when she is relentless.  I walk away and she follows or yells that I'm abandoning her.

Her work is not stressful in the scheme of things.  She works in the dental field but is a manager.  It's a small office where people 'treat her badly'.  Everywhere she has worked it ends up that everyone is against her.  They are all out to get her or make her look stupid.  I know it's the illness because I have spoke to these people and they all have a very high opinion of her.  She makes things up that she is on probation at work or that they have threatened her with termination.  I don't believe any of it.  She said she wants me to come home some time soon and say she can stay home.  I would never do that but she uses that fact to point out that I am forcing her to work.  So, like an idiot, I started looking for jobs she is qualified for.  Then I stopped myself because I am making her problem mine. 

She was home for a short time and she called me constantly.  She was always crying or had something wrong, every single freaking day!  I came home to a messy house.  Dinner was never cooked as promised by her.  I don't expect any of this just to be clear, but if she says she would be able to function normally if she were home then she sure did prove herself wrong!

Her threats to disappear have really kicked up.  I don't think I would mind now.  At least me and my boys would have peace.

[Monolith]

Welcome and I hope we can help you get your thoughts back in alignment.

First and obvious question, How old is your wife and is triggered by her body clock running out of time for more kids?

Is there any particular aspect about your wifes behavior that has deteriorated lately?

Is there any chance menopause may be kicking in as an additional trigger?

Increase in behavior like this can often be triggered by a perception of time running out for some reason, whether it be real or imaginary

Hi there Waverider,

My wife is 29 years old.  I am almost 45.  She said she wanted to be done by the time she was 27.  Well, that was just to put pressure on me.  It didn't work.  I avoid her when she is ovulating.  In fact, that is the only time she is even interested in my intimately.  That in itself is causing an issue.

She keeps saying she wants to disappear and she doesn't trust anyone.  She doesn't trust me but has no good reason not to.  She just wants another baby that needs her.  Our young son is very independent which I am proud of to my core.  She sees it as a threat to her being wanted as a mom.  I tried telling her that her role as a mom will change over time.  Kids will need her in different ways as they make their way in the world.  She said she understands that but she wanted children.  I told her that I am in a different part of my life now.  Then she says I abuse her by dragging her along.  That I need to leave so she doesn't look like the A-hole.  REally?  that is a good reason to stay is so she doesn't look bad?

[waverider]

Is having a baby just another finding a new "job" so she can run away from her current role?

pwBPD live in a houseful of cobwebs in every room. They have a fear of spiders and spend their life running from one room to another in an attempt to escape the cobwebs rather than actually make the effort to clean the house and rid it of spiders.

It is good your son is independent. A needy mum who needs kids to need them for validation can serious stunt a childs development.

[ColdEthyl]

Welcome and I hope we can help you get your thoughts back in alignment.

First and obvious question, How old is your wife and is triggered by her body clock running out of time for more kids?

Is there any particular aspect about your wifes behavior that has deteriorated lately?

Is there any chance menopause may be kicking in as an additional trigger?

Increase in behavior like this can often be triggered by a perception of time running out for some reason, whether it be real or imaginary

Hi there Waverider,

My wife is 29 years old.  I am almost 45.  She said she wanted to be done by the time she was 27.  Well, that was just to put pressure on me.  It didn't work.  I avoid her when she is ovulating.  In fact, that is the only time she is even interested in my intimately.  That in itself is causing an issue.

She keeps saying she wants to disappear and she doesn't trust anyone.  She doesn't trust me but has no good reason not to.  She just wants another baby that needs her.  Our young son is very independent which I am proud of to my core.  She sees it as a threat to her being wanted as a mom.  I tried telling her that her role as a mom will change over time.  Kids will need her in different ways as they make their way in the world.  She said she understands that but she wanted children.  I told her that I am in a different part of my life now.  Then she says I abuse her by dragging her along.  That I need to leave so she doesn't look like the A-hole.  REally?  that is a good reason to stay is so she doesn't look bad?

I'm so sorry, Monolith. This sounds like pretty typical BPD behavior and thinking patterns  How long have you been married?

[Wrongturn1]

Monolith: Welcome!  And I strongly suggest you do not have another child with her.  People with BPD are destructive, and it would be unkind to bring another child into her sphere of chaos and toxicity. 

I love my uBPDw and am committed to staying, but I got a vasectomy 7 years ago and have not regretted it once. 

[Monolith]

Welcome and I hope we can help you get your thoughts back in alignment.

First and obvious question, How old is your wife and is triggered by her body clock running out of time for more kids?

Is there any particular aspect about your wifes behavior that has deteriorated lately?

Is there any chance menopause may be kicking in as an additional trigger?

Increase in behavior like this can often be triggered by a perception of time running out for some reason, whether it be real or imaginary

Hi there Waverider,

My wife is 29 years old.  I am almost 45.  She said she wanted to be done by the time she was 27.  Well, that was just to put pressure on me.  It didn't work.  I avoid her when she is ovulating.  In fact, that is the only time she is even interested in my intimately.  That in itself is causing an issue.

She keeps saying she wants to disappear and she doesn't trust anyone.  She doesn't trust me but has no good reason not to.  She just wants another baby that needs her.  Our young son is very independent which I am proud of to my core.  She sees it as a threat to her being wanted as a mom.  I tried telling her that her role as a mom will change over time.  Kids will need her in different ways as they make their way in the world.  She said she understands that but she wanted children.  I told her that I am in a different part of my life now.  Then she says I abuse her by dragging her along.  That I need to leave so she doesn't look like the A-hole.  REally?  that is a good reason to stay is so she doesn't look bad?

I'm so sorry, Monolith. This sounds like pretty typical BPD behavior and thinking patterns  How long have you been married?

We have been married a little over 9 years.  It does sound so typical but it's reassuring that a lot of people have gone or are going through the same thing.  I feel less alone in it. 

If it's typical behavior then does that mean it's not possible that she will get better?  Or will I have to change to accommodate her BPD?

Sigh.  I shouldn't have to take a class on how to communicate with someone who will communicate on their own terms.  I am very discouraged.  I can't take much more. 

My therapist (yes, therapist because my BPD wife had convinced me that I had something wrong with me) said it sounds like we are in a perpetual stalemate.  It's true.

But I find myself keeping things in.  I don't tell her everything for fear of the next rage.

[Monolith]

Monolith: Welcome!  And I strongly suggest you do not have another child with her.  People with BPD are destructive, and it would be unkind to bring another child into her sphere of chaos and toxicity. 

I love my uBPDw and am committed to staying, but I got a vasectomy 7 years ago and have not regretted it once. 

Hi Wrongturn,

I hear you and I agree.  If I get snipped, that would be the end of my marriage.  Considering my age also, I don't think it would be fair to my future children to have kids at such a late age.  They would be forced to be stuck with her after I'm gone.

[ColdEthyl]

Welcome and I hope we can help you get your thoughts back in alignment.

First and obvious question, How old is your wife and is triggered by her body clock running out of time for more kids?

Is there any particular aspect about your wifes behavior that has deteriorated lately?

Is there any chance menopause may be kicking in as an additional trigger?

Increase in behavior like this can often be triggered by a perception of time running out for some reason, whether it be real or imaginary

Hi there Waverider,

My wife is 29 years old.  I am almost 45.  She said she wanted to be done by the time she was 27.  Well, that was just to put pressure on me.  It didn't work.  I avoid her when she is ovulating.  In fact, that is the only time she is even interested in my intimately.  That in itself is causing an issue.

She keeps saying she wants to disappear and she doesn't trust anyone.  She doesn't trust me but has no good reason not to.  She just wants another baby that needs her.  Our young son is very independent which I am proud of to my core.  She sees it as a threat to her being wanted as a mom.  I tried telling her that her role as a mom will change over time.  Kids will need her in different ways as they make their way in the world.  She said she understands that but she wanted children.  I told her that I am in a different part of my life now.  Then she says I abuse her by dragging her along.  That I need to leave so she doesn't look like the A-hole.  REally?  that is a good reason to stay is so she doesn't look bad?

I'm so sorry, Monolith. This sounds like pretty typical BPD behavior and thinking patterns  How long have you been married?

We have been married a little over 9 years.  It does sound so typical but it's reassuring that a lot of people have gone or are going through the same thing.  I feel less alone in it. 

If it's typical behavior then does that mean it's not possible that she will get better?  Or will I have to change to accommodate her BPD?

Sigh.  I shouldn't have to take a class on how to communicate with someone who will communicate on their own terms.  I am very discouraged.  I can't take much more. 

My therapist (yes, therapist because my BPD wife had convinced me that I had something wrong with me) said it sounds like we are in a perpetual stalemate.  It's true.

But I find myself keeping things in.  I don't tell her everything for fear of the next rage.

You sound pretty fed up and disgusted, and we all understand that /hug

If you want to continue the relationship, you would have to change. Your change will change her behavior, but I won't lie... .it's a long bumpy road that may or may not end up where you want it to go.

I suggest you take some time to think about what you want, and go from there. I'm sorry hun... .you got some tough decisions to make. In the meantime, we are all here to help. We all know exactly what you are going through.

The decision to not have any children is a good one. I wanted children with my dBPDh, but he's also older than me. I am 35 and he's 49, and he did not want anymore so I got sterilized. Boy... .am I so glad that decision was made

[waverider]

. 

If it's typical behavior then does that mean it's not possible that she will get better?  Or will I have to change to accommodate her BPD?

It is a relationship. part of that is action and counter reaction. To thrive you will both have to change. As a non you have more capability to provide the framework, so you will need to take the lead. whether it leads anywhere depends on how willing she is to follow.

[Monolith]

. 

If it's typical behavior then does that mean it's not possible that she will get better?  Or will I have to change to accommodate her BPD?

It is a relationship. part of that is action and counter reaction. To thrive you will both have to change. As a non you have more capability to provide the framework, so you will need to take the lead. whether it leads anywhere depends on how willing she is to follow.

This is something I've read in relationship books too.  it is great advice and a great concept.  But when I change, she sees it as a threat.  I started working out and she said it was to leave her.  I worked overtime so we could have a good Christmas but she said it was because I was having an affair.  I started to get our financials in order and she said it was because I was preparing to leave so I needed to know what I had to split with her.  I let her sleep on the couch instead of waking her up because she needed rest.  She said it was because I didn't want to spend time with her.

You see the pattern.  Every change I make, or respectful treatment is tainted by her BPD.

She is not willing to follow because it would require effort and in some way for her to admit she is wrong.  Those are things she does not seem to have in her personality.   :'(

[ColdEthyl]

.  

If it's typical behavior then does that mean it's not possible that she will get better?  Or will I have to change to accommodate her BPD?

It is a relationship. part of that is action and counter reaction. To thrive you will both have to change. As a non you have more capability to provide the framework, so you will need to take the lead. whether it leads anywhere depends on how willing she is to follow.

This is something I've read in relationship books too.  it is great advice and a great concept.  But when I change, she sees it as a threat.  I started working out and she said it was to leave her.  I worked overtime so we could have a good Christmas but she said it was because I was having an affair.  I started to get our financials in order and she said it was because I was preparing to leave so I needed to know what I had to split with her.  I let her sleep on the couch instead of waking her up because she needed rest.  She said it was because I didn't want to spend time with her.

You see the pattern.  Every change I make, or respectful treatment is tainted by her BPD.

She is not willing to follow because it would require effort and in some way for her to admit she is wrong.  Those are things she does not seem to have in her personality.   :'(

Monolith, I have experienced the same things. Normally I don't wear makeup, but I had a meeting with some doctors in the morning (I work at a hospital) and I dressed appropriately and put my face on. He accused me of going to meet with a doctor for sex.

He occasionally thinks I'm cheating, or trying to scramble money together to move out... .it's their problem. It's their self-loathing that feeds that behavior. There's nothing you can do about that.

The only thing you have control over is how you respond, and what you do. That's what we mean by working the tools. I've been on these boards for about 6 months or so, and I do see improvement in my husband. Not by any work on his part, but my modifying how I say things, and how I look and feel about the behaviors.

[ColdEthyl]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

[Monolith]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

[ColdEthyl]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

[Monolith]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

A specific argument is not hard to remember.  I'll use yours because I have a similar yet slightly different scenario.

My wife and almost 3 year old son are in the bathroom.  I am doing laundry in the bedroom.  My son knocks the hairdryer off of the counter onto the floor.  I SAW it hit the floor right next to my wife's foot.  She screams out loud and it startles my son.  He ran up to me crying because her reaction scared him.  Now, i'm holding him and she limps into the room dramatically and flops on the bed on top of the clothing stacks I have been working on for the past 10 minutes before tragedy struck.  I said what happened?  She barked back to me that it was obvious that she was hurt by the hairdryer.  I saw it miss her foot.  So, now I'm torn.  Do I continue to console my son or help someone who just wants attention?  I still held my son and asked to see her foot, playing her little game.  I didn't even see a red mark.  she kept repeating over and over that I thought she was a liar.  She showed no concern for our son.  She wanted the attention.

So, later that night I was walking around the bed to my side.  I brushed her foot and she reacted like I whacked it with a bat!  She then went on about how I don't care about her and blah blah.  I had just had it. I said I was sorry and asked if I should sleep in another rroom since the chances of me hitting her foot were high during sleep.  She said no but she doesn't care because I think she is a liar.

I was just astounded.  This was also a night I sleepwalked into our bathroom.  The next morning she said we had a conversation and I didn't remember it.  I was sleeping for crying out loud. 

I have hundreds more stories but please know in 99.9% of the situations, I have remained calm.  The only time I freaked out was during an argument when she was 8 months pregnant, she started cutting herself in the kitchen.  How the heck could anyone deal with that situation calmly?  I know I couldn't and didn't.  But, I never hear the end of it.  I yelled at her at her 'lowest point' nevermind the fact she was cutting herself on purpose.

I sound pathetic.

[Monolith]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

[ColdEthyl]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

Yes, it does bother me. Sometimes I feel cheated... .I think all of us do to some degree. But for me, the pluses outweigh minuses. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so some pwBPD display more traits than others to varying degrees. My husband seems mild compared to what I've seen others work through. He's self-aware, he is working on himself, he can admit he has issues, and does work with me. It's a mental illness, it isn't a choice.

I'm sorry about the situation with your wife. I can tell you based on what you said... .she acted that way because she didn't want to be wrong for scaring your child. For pwBPD, I tend to see it as their "fight or flight" is broken... .or calibrated differently. So, she needed your attention. It wasn't meant to be vile to you or your son... .it's just that they seriously suck at ingesting and expressing feelings.

She was projecting that you don't believe her. It's my guess she has done these things before, and people have no believed her. It's real to her. For them feeling=fact.

Even if you were calm, she probably knew you were irritated at her. They are super good at reading us. It's amazing how people who cannot admit or see what they do... .yet they read us like books at times.

No you are not pathetic. You are not going crazy. You are dealing with a mentally ill person, and we have all been there.

Has she tried hurting herself before?

[waverider]

Going back to the earlier point of a reaction elicits a counter reaction. You changing a behavior will create a counter reaction. Change not of their making is loosing control to a pwBPD, that is a threat. Throw in a bit of projection,ie they make changes often for their own 'agendas' not yours, so they will suspect you of the same. Thats is why people make changes , right? Hidden reasons.

What to do? Just keep your ground, they have a right to express their concerns, and you have a right to do what you think is right.

In effect you are setting new precedents and boundaries, you have to prove new consequences.

eg

You work more to bring in more money>they think you are saving to leave>you dont>precendent becomes established

You go to gym>they believe you are toning up for an affair> you dont and just become healthier> precendent becomes established

Perceived threats have to be shown to not eventuate. This does not mean they dont feel fear, it just takes a while to realize that is the case.

pwBPD live in constant fear of life in general, and hence fight tooth and nail to either maitain status quo or control.

Changes need to take place for anything to change, but you have to force them, and prove them to not to be adverse.

[waverider]

Liking them to kids has its merits, BUT you have to be careful they are not children, you dont have the same authority, they are far more set in their ways. They are more experienced at fighting for their needs. They can read you better. It is too easy to come across as patronizing, and they will read it.

You can "control" kids, you cant control an adult, only yourself. While the underdeveloped emotional regulation may be similar the steps taken to deal with it will need to be different in many ways.

[ColdEthyl]

Liking them to kids has its merits, BUT you have to be careful they are not children, you dont have the same authority, they are far more set in their ways. They are more experienced at fighting for their needs. They can read you better. It is too easy to come across as patronizing, and they will read it.

You can "control" kids, you cant control an adult, only yourself. While the underdeveloped emotional regulation may be similar the steps taken to deal with it will need to be different in many ways.

Thank you for pointing that out, waverider. I did not mean to imply they are children, rather just drawing a correlation on that specific behavioral trait.

[123Phoebe]

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

I can't speak for ColdEthyl, but for me, for the very most part, we don't have major problems communicating.  I know him well enough by now to approach him in ways he'll be more open to, while maintaining my integrity with respect for him, when faced with a  situation. 

In a way, it's being more literal in emotion.  Saying what you mean and meaning what you say in a meaningful way.  The opposite of feeling stifled

[ColdEthyl]

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

I can't speak for ColdEthyl, but for me, for the very most part, we don't have major problems communicating.  I know him well enough by now to approach him in ways he'll be more open to, while maintaining my integrity with respect for him, when faced with a  situation. 

In a way, it's being more literal in emotion.  Saying what you mean and meaning what you say in a meaningful way.  The opposite of feeling stifled

I'm trying to get there, Phoebe! He's actually been really receptive and open lately... little by little we are learning to communicate better!

I get stuck on my knee-jerk reactions... .that's where he gets me the most now. I need to re-train how I react. He's always saying "I'm not you exhusband, I am not your mother you can't do that to me" and I resented him for saying that... .until I realized he was right. I do react instantly and without thought like I am talking to my exhusband or my mother. Damn him again. ^.^

[Monolith]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

Yes, it does bother me. Sometimes I feel cheated... .I think all of us do to some degree. But for me, the pluses outweigh minuses. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so some pwBPD display more traits than others to varying degrees. My husband seems mild compared to what I've seen others work through. He's self-aware, he is working on himself, he can admit he has issues, and does work with me. It's a mental illness, it isn't a choice.

I'm sorry about the situation with your wife. I can tell you based on what you said... .she acted that way because she didn't want to be wrong for scaring your child. For pwBPD, I tend to see it as their "fight or flight" is broken... .or calibrated differently. So, she needed your attention. It wasn't meant to be vile to you or your son... .it's just that they seriously suck at ingesting and expressing feelings.

She was projecting that you don't believe her. It's my guess she has done these things before, and people have no believed her. It's real to her. For them feeling=fact.

Even if you were calm, she probably knew you were irritated at her. They are super good at reading us. It's amazing how people who cannot admit or see what they do... .yet they read us like books at times.

No you are not pathetic. You are not going crazy. You are dealing with a mentally ill person, and we have all been there.

Has she tried hurting herself before?

She has tried to hurt herself.  She once wrapped an alarm clock cord around her neck in front of me and tried to choke herself out.  Then one time she took her keys and slashed her wrists pretty deep.  So much blood, ugh.

I know it's for attention but man, what a way to get attention.  I am just realizing that I'm not qualified to help her in the way she needs help.  I am barely keeping my sanity intact, and having to worry about my 3 boys is not helping.  They are my world, my life and so was she.  I always respect her in every way.  I think it's the fact of leaving is intentionally hurting her that bugs me.

I had a good weekend until after the Super bowl.  she went to her dad's to hang out without me.  We mutually agreed to have me stay him with my boys while she went over there with our son.  Then, when she got home it turned around.  She said it seemed like I am happier when she is not there. 

My 18 year old son said while she was gone that it was much more peaceful when she was gone.  I have to hand it to him, he's been a trooper and hasn't said much.  but, he said that and he was right in a sense.  there were no imaginary emergencies or over reactions.  It was just us, hanging out watching Mythbusters. 

I don't know what the litmus test is to know if I'm done or just need a break from this.  Should I need a break from my marriage?  Is that normal?  This is supposed to be my soulmate.  Sometimes it seems like she's my cellmate

[ColdEthyl]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

Yes, it does bother me. Sometimes I feel cheated... .I think all of us do to some degree. But for me, the pluses outweigh minuses. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so some pwBPD display more traits than others to varying degrees. My husband seems mild compared to what I've seen others work through. He's self-aware, he is working on himself, he can admit he has issues, and does work with me. It's a mental illness, it isn't a choice.

I'm sorry about the situation with your wife. I can tell you based on what you said... .she acted that way because she didn't want to be wrong for scaring your child. For pwBPD, I tend to see it as their "fight or flight" is broken... .or calibrated differently. So, she needed your attention. It wasn't meant to be vile to you or your son... .it's just that they seriously suck at ingesting and expressing feelings.

She was projecting that you don't believe her. It's my guess she has done these things before, and people have no believed her. It's real to her. For them feeling=fact.

Even if you were calm, she probably knew you were irritated at her. They are super good at reading us. It's amazing how people who cannot admit or see what they do... .yet they read us like books at times.

No you are not pathetic. You are not going crazy. You are dealing with a mentally ill person, and we have all been there.

Has she tried hurting herself before?

She has tried to hurt herself.  She once wrapped an alarm clock cord around her neck in front of me and tried to choke herself out.  Then one time she took her keys and slashed her wrists pretty deep.  So much blood, ugh.

I know it's for attention but man, what a way to get attention.  I am just realizing that I'm not qualified to help her in the way she needs help.  I am barely keeping my sanity intact, and having to worry about my 3 boys is not helping.  They are my world, my life and so was she.  I always respect her in every way.  I think it's the fact of leaving is intentionally hurting her that bugs me.

I had a good weekend until after the Super bowl.  she went to her dad's to hang out without me.  We mutually agreed to have me stay him with my boys while she went over there with our son.  Then, when she got home it turned around.  She said it seemed like I am happier when she is not there. 

My 18 year old son said while she was gone that it was much more peaceful when she was gone.  I have to hand it to him, he's been a trooper and hasn't said much.  but, he said that and he was right in a sense.  there were no imaginary emergencies or over reactions.  It was just us, hanging out watching Mythbusters. 

I don't know what the litmus test is to know if I'm done or just need a break from this.  Should I need a break from my marriage?  Is that normal?  This is supposed to be my soulmate.  Sometimes it seems like she's my cellmate

Yes, it's all normal. We all feel that way sometimes. You are just discovering this stuff... .finding out... .it's overwhelming. For most of us, what we thought we were getting is our soul mate, they sell it pretty good.

Whatever you need to do for you and your boys... .that is your call. If you want to work on your marriage... .we are here. If you want to leave... .we are here. Do you think she would go to counseling with you? Are you willing?

That's really the question. What are YOU willing to do?

[Monolith]

Also,

When dealing with children, have you noticed when you change a rule and try to implement it, and their behavior will get worse before it gets better?

The same thing applies here. They will buck. They will fight and usually dysregulate even more for awhile.

What do you say to your wife when she accuses you for those things? How do you respond?

That is a great analogy:  children.  She does react strongly to my changes.  It doesn't get better though.  She constantly says if she 'acts, walks or talks correctly' then she will get what she wants.  So, when she acts crazy, she says it's my fault because I setup a stupid rule.  She 'should be allowed to express herself'.

How do I respond?  I usually try to be reassuring.  Well, at first I did but now I just shut down or remain silent because I don't want to make her worse.  Then she will say i'm giving her the silent treatment whatever that is?  I just say there is nothing to say because it is all not true.  Then it goes to my always wanting to be right.  It's like we read from the script.  When I deviate from the script, the reaction is stronger.  It usually takes the course that I deserve better than her and I will leave some day.  She is probably right at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy?  I don't treat her any differently but BPD people seem to be very sensitive to the smallest changes in thoughts or treatment.  She picks up on anything subtle that she can use against me at a later rage.

Can you provide a specific argument we can break it down? I'm still learning this stuff as well. My husband likes to say I am "throwing up straw man arguments" that's his default blame technique.

Mine also says I'm going to leave and I deserve better and yes... .it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mine is also acutely aware of my tone and the words I choose.

What we need to learn is to validate the feelings, but not the behaviors. That's where it gets fun. Here's an example of a success I recently had.

We were in bed watching TV together and I got up to use the restroom. When I came back I went to sit and accidentally bumped his elbow.

Naturally, he screams OOWWWW like I just shot him. My knee-jerk reaction was irritation because, as well as you know by now, they can be complete drama queens. I said "Oh my god... .I'm moving over ok?"

Bad choice.

He starts screaming about I have no right to be angry at him because I hurt him... .why... .I almost bent his elbow out of it's socket! He wasn't mad at me... .how dare I get angry at him!

I quickly caught on to what I did here. I stayed very calm, and used a clam voice. I said "Baby, I'm sorry I hit your elbow. I know it feels like I was angry at you, and I apologize for giving off that vibe. I was instantly irritated because I didn't mean to hurt you."

He then when on for a bit to tell me how he felt about it. And I stayed calm, held his hand while he talked. After he used up all of his words, he was back to 'normal' and we finished our show.

In the past... .this would have played out a lot different.

does it ever bother you that you have to talk to him like a child to get a semi-normal response from him?  I know you love him very much but man, that is a lot of effort just to communicate with someone.  Do you feel stifled?

Yes, it does bother me. Sometimes I feel cheated... .I think all of us do to some degree. But for me, the pluses outweigh minuses. BPD is a spectrum disorder, so some pwBPD display more traits than others to varying degrees. My husband seems mild compared to what I've seen others work through. He's self-aware, he is working on himself, he can admit he has issues, and does work with me. It's a mental illness, it isn't a choice.

I'm sorry about the situation with your wife. I can tell you based on what you said... .she acted that way because she didn't want to be wrong for scaring your child. For pwBPD, I tend to see it as their "fight or flight" is broken... .or calibrated differently. So, she needed your attention. It wasn't meant to be vile to you or your son... .it's just that they seriously suck at ingesting and expressing feelings.

She was projecting that you don't believe her. It's my guess she has done these things before, and people have no believed her. It's real to her. For them feeling=fact.

Even if you were calm, she probably knew you were irritated at her. They are super good at reading us. It's amazing how people who cannot admit or see what they do... .yet they read us like books at times.

No you are not pathetic. You are not going crazy. You are dealing with a mentally ill person, and we have all been there.

Has she tried hurting herself before?

She has tried to hurt herself.  She once wrapped an alarm clock cord around her neck in front of me and tried to choke herself out.  Then one time she took her keys and slashed her wrists pretty deep.  So much blood, ugh.

I know it's for attention but man, what a way to get attention.  I am just realizing that I'm not qualified to help her in the way she needs help.  I am barely keeping my sanity intact, and having to worry about my 3 boys is not helping.  They are my world, my life and so was she.  I always respect her in every way.  I think it's the fact of leaving is intentionally hurting her that bugs me.

I had a good weekend until after the Super bowl.  she went to her dad's to hang out without me.  We mutually agreed to have me stay him with my boys while she went over there with our son.  Then, when she got home it turned around.  She said it seemed like I am happier when she is not there. 

My 18 year old son said while she was gone that it was much more peaceful when she was gone.  I have to hand it to him, he's been a trooper and hasn't said much.  but, he said that and he was right in a sense.  there were no imaginary emergencies or over reactions.  It was just us, hanging out watching Mythbusters. 

I don't know what the litmus test is to know if I'm done or just need a break from this.  Should I need a break from my marriage?  Is that normal?  This is supposed to be my soulmate.  Sometimes it seems like she's my cellmate

Yes, it's all normal. We all feel that way sometimes. You are just discovering this stuff... .finding out... .it's overwhelming. For most of us, what we thought we were getting is our soul mate, they sell it pretty good.

Whatever you need to do for you and your boys... .that is your call. If you want to work on your marriage... .we are here. If you want to leave... .we are here. Do you think she would go to counseling with you? Are you willing?

That's really the question. What are YOU willing to do?

I mentioned counseling about 6 weeks ago after a meltdown.  That may not have been the best timing but her attitude was that it showed weakness.  She also said she feared a counselor would hate her and tell me that we should not be together.  I know that's insecurity talking but it does taint things before we even enter the office.

I am open minded and very willing to compromise but in my experience over the past 10 years or so with my wife, I would do all of the work.  I would be the one to have to change. 

I'm willing to be alone after I feel everything has been done to save my marriage.  I'm at that point now I believe. 

A good friend of mine offered free therapy for couples.  He said it is religious based which I am not too keen on.  My wife and I do share the same belief system so that wasn't the issue.  But, after a while my wife turned it into him trying to get us to believe as he does.  We do not believe in supernatural beings.  She burned that bridge by telling him no thank you but he needs to keep it to himself.  She doesn't like agendas.  I was astonished at her reaction to such a nice gesture. 

That's her thing, if the person can help her on her terms, then they're golden.  If not, she makes them mad and runs them off.

That must be the reason he has no casual acquaintances.     

[waverider]

Could we edit down the quotes a little, we are getting too many quotes within quotes. Its getting confusing, and it will be taking the entire page up soon. We have page limits to observe, and dont want to prematurely lock the thread as we have run out of pages

Waverider

[ColdEthyl]

Sorry, waverider!

@monolith

Yes... .that would be why they don't have casual acquaintances. That part of my r/s is actually fine, since I don't like most people myself.

Everything is black/white. Everything gets run through the BPD filter. There's a ton of tools on this site to help if you decide to stay. You would be putting in most of the work. That's a given.