Way Too Enmeshed

[vortex of confusion]

In another thread, I said something about my husband and I still being way too enmeshed.

In all honesty, I thought I was doing pretty good. I have set boundaries around phone calls so that he isn't calling me constantly during the day. I unfriended him on FB so that he wouldn't question me about everything that I posted and I wouldn't get annoyed at the things that he posts.

We don't share a room any more. I have my work and these forums. I am trying to separate myself from him emotionally.

A recent event highlighted the fact that I am not making the progress that I had wanted.

He and I have always shared a lot, probably way too much. I think part of untangling things is for both of us to stop sharing so much with each other.

The latest incident involves him asking me for permission to post/answer ads. Instead of going to his sponsor or therapist, he came to me. I realize that I should have told him that it was NOT up for discussion and referred him to his therapist or sponsor.

I am trying to figure out which topics to avoid so that I can create clearer boundaries.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestion?

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[Notwendy]

To me, Vortex, enmeshment is an emotional state, not necessarily what two people are doing together. It's actually another way to say "co-dependent" although I know you don't like that term. It doesn't mean two people are dependent on each other, it means giving someone else the power to get to us- when we "let" them interfere with how we feel. In actuality we do care about how our loved ones see us, it's about how much.

The only thing that helped me was dealing with my own co-dependency. Until then, I could not possibly have a tough conversation on the phone with my mom that didn't leave me in a bad mood for hours. Then after years (literally) of recovery work- something happened. The last few crazy making phone calls felt different. After she hung up, I didn't feel bad at all. It seemed like a miracle.

Then the same thing started to happen with my H. He would rage at me, and yet, it didn't get to me- not in that way. I was upset about being raged at, but it did not get to me like it used to. I realized that emotionally, I had gotten to a place where I was no longer enmeshed. His feelings were his, mine were mine.

I don't know your H, so I am not enmeshed with him. So if I met him and had he asked me for permission to search for women on the internet, my reply would be - that's not my business, why ask me?".  I know that from where you are, you can not have a stranger's perspective, and that his SA does affect you, however, by asking your "permission" he is involving you in his addiction, and making you partly responsible for it. All you can define is what will you do if he does it, but it is hard to do this from a place of pain. Of course it has to hurt you, however, if you can get to a place where you can stand in your own pain, feel it, and realize what you want to do with it and not make that dependent on what he does, you will know what to do.

I can not get there without the help I got, and still need. The support of my own sponsor and group is something that is essential to me being able to do this.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't know your H, so I am not enmeshed with him. So if I met him and had he asked me for permission to search for women on the internet, my reply would be - that's not my business, why ask me?".  I know that from where you are, you can not have a stranger's perspective, and that his SA does affect you, however, by asking your "permission" he is involving you in his addiction, and making you partly responsible for it. All you can define is what will you do if he does it, but it is hard to do this from a place of pain. Of course it has to hurt you, however, if you can get to a place where you can stand in your own pain, feel it, and realize what you want to do with it and not make that dependent on what he does, you will know what to do.

Thanks for the input Notwendy!

I guess a better question might be "How the heck do I know what is my business and what isn't?"

And then, if I determine that something isn't my business, what do I say without sounding like a real jerk?

If he asks a question about something that I don't want to share, how do I respond without being a jerk?

I know these sound like really silly questions but I am looking for some practical tips and ideas to get to a better place.

[bobcat2014]

Vortex,

My situation is very similar. The enmeshment I share is a deep tangled mess that seems better left alone, outside the ultimatum boundaries I set.

The sad part for me was enabling this to happen over the years. I did not know anything about a BPD and really thought I was a terrible person. I still ask myself what more I could be doing.

[vortex of confusion]

My situation is very similar. The enmeshment I share is a deep tangled mess that seems better left alone, outside the ultimatum boundaries I set.

I am stubborn! I refuse to leave it alone.  I want to fix this and I want it fixed NOW.   

On a more serious note, I think that the only way for me to move forward in healthy ways is to untangle the mess. It feels horrible at times but it is something that I feel like I need to do for my own growth and well being. Whether or not I stay with my husband in the long wrong is kind of irrelevant. If I don't have a better idea of what is healthy and what isn't, I am just going to repeat these same patterns. If not with my husband, then it might be somebody else.

The sad part for me was enabling this to happen over the years. I did not know anything about a BPD and really thought I was a terrible person. I still ask myself what more I could be doing.

 

I soo know that feeling. I ask myself the question of, "How the heck did things come to this?" I can look back and see how things slowly progressed to this and I can see times where I should have made different decisions and done things differently. I can really relate to feeling like a horrible person. There are times when I read stuff that people have done to set boundaries and I think that it is so mean and that I shouldn't have to go to those lengths to protect myself from somebody that supposedly loves me and that I supposedly love. It sometimes kills me inside to know that my own lack of backbone has put me right where I am and the only way to get out is to grow a backbone. I think I need to start repeating to myself:

Protecting myself and growing a backbone is NOT mean.

Protecting myself and growing a backbone is NOT mean.

Protecting myself and growing a backbone is NOT mean.

<sigh>

[Notwendy]

How do you know what is his business?

This is where I could not have done it without a sponsor. Everytime I was upset about something with my H, I would call her. This is different from calling a friend. A friend can be supportive, but a good sponsor can walk you though seeing what is your stuff, and what you need to work on, and hold your feet to the fire.

I remember one weekend where I got the ST the entire time. It was awful because we were out of town and in the car for a long trip together. The ST made me crazy enough as it is, but at least at home I could leave the house or go to another room. No, I was stuck, and that's what made it such a great opportunity to "punish me" for something - I have no idea what. I could not have gotten through that without ducking into the bathroom from time to time and calling my sponsor to support me through it. I won't say he won't try this again, but it has gotten less frequent since I have gotten stronger about dealing with it. It will always bother me, but I can separate from it better too. But I could not have done this on my own.

Every addict or dysfunctional person in a relationship with a partner is in some kind of emotional "dance" with that partner- and the partners seem to be unhappy and yet feel stuck. Co dependency groups are for the partners, and a good sponsor can be very supportive at helping someone untangle the situation, since they have been through it themseleves.

[vortex of confusion]

How do you know what is his business?

This is where I could not have done it without a sponsor. Everytime I was upset about something with my H, I would call her. This is different from calling a friend. A friend can be supportive, but a good sponsor can walk you though seeing what is your stuff, and what you need to work on, and hold your feet to the fire.

I am talking about in the moment conversations. He will ask me a question, and without thinking, I will give him an answer instead of saying, "I don't want to answer that question." or "It is none of your business." I want to be better prepared to deal with those kinds of questions.

For example, he asked me who I was talking to when I was chatting on FB this morning. He will ask who I have talked to and how they are doing. I do it to him at times as well.

It seems like we have nothing to talk about so we end up talking about stuff that leads to one or both of us being annoyed. Sometimes, it feels like he is prying.

[Notwendy]

I also have responses that are so automatic, I don't even think until I've done it. I had to actually reprogram the way I think. I was actually "programed" by my parents. I am an empathetic and caring person too. I swear I could have a neon sign on me that people looking for a caregiver can see that says "pick me". I have been working on that sign.

It comes down to paying attention to how you feel. If my H asks me a question, and I don't feel that sense of ugh- like I am being manipulated, I just answer. We learned in group though that it is OK to say "I'll get back to you' or "I need time to think about this " if I need to stop and pay attention to my feelings. Something like who am I talking to, I'd probably answer since it isn't worh an argument. We pick our battles.

I was laughing at a funny story on the internet about how a guy caught his wife cheating. Not really funny but the way he wrote it was. My H heard me laughing so I told him why. It was almost predictable that he'd then ask me if I was cheating. I laughed- still at the story and said, "I knew you'd ask that" ( since he usually does if the subject comes up in any way) but that rattled him and he asked again, so I said no, I am not cheating and he dropped it. I don't mind answering his questions since there is no sense in making an issue out of that. I'm not cheating, so even if he worries about it, it's his worry, not mine. I could have felt angry or irritated at the question, or the idea that he might think that of me, but I know what I am doing- or not doing, and what he thinks doesn't change that for me.

Since I didn't feel anything about the question, I could answer from a detatched place. Had I been irritated, he'd have sensed that, and it may not have gone well.

If you don't feel irritated by your H's questions, it's easier to answer. So, paying attention to your feelings might be a place to start knowing when to answer and when not to.

[Cat Familiar]

He will ask me a question, and without thinking, I will give him an answer instead of saying, "I don't want to answer that question." or "It is none of your business." I want to be better prepared to deal with those kinds of questions.

For example, he asked me who I was talking to when I was chatting on FB this morning. He will ask who I have talked to and how they are doing. I do it to him at times as well.

It seems like we have nothing to talk about so we end up talking about stuff that leads to one or both of us being annoyed. Sometimes, it feels like he is prying.

Oh, I know this one. Lots of times it seems that my husband and I have nothing to talk about and we just make up stuff. He'll ask me about some friend of mine, for whom he has no interest--just to have some conversational topic.

It bugs me when he comes into my space and reads the emails I'm composing. I try not to do that to him, but sometimes I'm just standing there talking to him while he's on his computer and my eyes just go to his screen.

I'm going to try to clean up my behavior in this area because it really does feel like a violation of privacy when he does it to me.

[Cat Familiar]

So Vortex, if you're figuring out what topics to avoid to create clearer boundaries, what things really bother you?

[Notwendy]

My H hates it when I talk to friends on FB. I know he is jealous of that. I don't talk in private. I post on their walls and they post on mine. For the few who are male, I know that their wives can see their wall, and their kids, and also my wall too as we have all friended each others spouses and older kids. If we post, we are usually friendly arguing over politics or making silly jokes. I like to see pictures of my friends' families. I don't like it when he looks because I feel he is examining it, or looking for something.

I see his point when he says he thinks I should be talking to him more, but conversation is hard. Sometimes it is easier to just be on FB. It's become an outlet for me and a small connection when I feel isolated.

[vortex of confusion]

So Vortex, if you're figuring out what topics to avoid to create clearer boundaries, what things really bother you?

Ugh. . .my gut reaction and my first thought when I read this was: EVERYTHING! 

I am still trying to figure out what bothers me. I was told that it sounds like I am still way too involved in his recovery. I am trying to figure how involved to be. I want to change the dynamic so that when my husband thinks of posting/answering ads, he talks to his sponsor or his therapist instead of ME. I don't want to have that conversation.

I want to step out of the role of being his therapist. I know how and when it happened and now I am trying to figure out how to reverse it. I rarely talk to him about what is on my mind. I have found other outlets such as forums, friends, or my own writings. I need to be way more direct and not be so afraid of hurting his feelings. And he needs to back the heck up and not come to me about everything. I don't want to be his mother or his therapist.

[MissyM]

Vortex, I have a book recommendation.  Actually there are a whole series on Boundaries.  The one regarding marriage is very good.  For me, enmeshment comes down to not having good boundaries.  Heck, not feeling entitled to my own feelings and thoughts without having them validated by my husband was just a huge issue for me.  A sponsor and meetings really help with some things but with boundaries I needed a lot of therapy.  The Boundaries book on marriage was an assignment for me in therapy, I found it very helpful.   I know that you haven't been fond of meetings and therapy may be out of your reach right now, financially.  So my suggestion would be to do some workbooks until you are ready to do meetings or therapy.  PM me if you want any other book suggestions.

[Notwendy]

Which book is this? I found a few on Amazon.

[MissyM]

By Henry Cloud and John Townsend, there is a whole series.  I really like the one that is Boundaries in Marriage.

[sweetheart]

Vortex I think this has come up before but I'll ask again, do u have a T ? Because without one this kind of work is near on impossible in my opinion.

We can all set our dilemmas out in posts and get great support and advice from other members but T will help you work through the layers of enmeshment, creating a route through it, helping you navigate the ambivalence held in you around your marriage.

Without a T now and also spending many years in T in my past there is absolutely no way I could continue to stay in a relationship with my h.

Issues around enmeshment, SA, FOO, BPD/NPD, ongoing conflict with a SO who is not motivated to address their own dysfunctional patterns is likely to keep you stuck chasing your tail in ever decreasing circles trying to sort things out. I know this was certainly true for me last year.

If you do have a T then just ignore me.

[Notwendy]

I saw that and it looks good. I know some people might have the same reservations about a faith based book as they have with 12 steps, but I've read books from different traditions that also have very good advice.

I also think our culture is heavily influenced by Christianity and that it has formed a base for how we are expected to act and how we expect others. That's a good thing in general- tells us not to do unethical things like robbing banks, and encourages us to do good things for others,  but it may lead to us not knowing when to say no and when we can think of ourselves too. Some of the reviews are by people who thought that being a good Christian meant keeping the peace and being a dormat. I think that expectation is also about being a good person no matter what belief system one has. I grew up thinking being a good person meant I had to be nice to everyone. This is a book that seems to show the difference between being ethical, charitable and how not to be a doormat. I'm not making a case for it- haven't read it myself, but this is my impression from reading the reviews. If it can show how to be a decent human and not a doormat, then it sounds like it would be helpful.

[MissyM]

Yes, I should have mentioned it is heavily Christian.  I am a very moderate person and can read and view many different religions.  If a Christian slant would be offensive, then I would suggest looking for some good books on boundaries.

[Notwendy]

I like to learn from different perspectives too. Even if someone isn't religious I think some behavioral expectations are founded on religion. I agree that if it bothers someone then there are other books.

[vortex of confusion]

MissyM: Thanks for the book recommendation! I'll put it on my list.

sweatheart: I do not yet have a T. I have checked into it but it is out of my reach due to finances.

I know this is something that I am going to need help with. I am making slow progress on my own but it is very slow and very arduous. It definitely feels like I am chasing my tail at times.

[Notwendy]

I don't think I could manage without some kind of theraputic supportive person in my life. Friends and family can be supportive, but I don't think they have the kind of experience or expertise to help us make changes. Living in my H's reality was crazy making. I couldn't turn to my family for support- they were crazier than we were. Friends would never believe it because my H is so wonderful to people he knows casually. So I felt very isolated, and it was easy to me to accept his point that our marriage was fine and that I had the problem.

I feel like I am pushing the 12 step group idea but even with working with my own T, the effectiveness of having a sponsor was huge- and it didn't cost money.

[sweetheart]

I just went to echo Notwendy's point about finding therapeutic or specific support that doesn't cost anything.

Money is a real issue for us, but so was my sanity and the well being of my son. I was finding i was way too caught up in my h's issues and felt irritable and stressed when parenting as I was spreading myself too thin emotionally. I searched for months to find a low cost therapy outlet, it took a while but I found more than one. If I could have accessed support in he evenings there were lots of support groups available that were free. T has been the single most beneficial thing I have done in reclaiming my life. I also accessed support for my s6 when I made the decision to stay.

The other area I am linked into locally is support for families with mental health issues. I see a someone for support once a week, we go for a coffee and I moan a lot.

So my number one suggestion on your to do list for this post to help you become less enmeshed, is to invest your energy and focus your attention on finding support for you.

[Notwendy]

Thanks Sweetheart, sometimes I just want to cry too. It seems like I am always on the verge of misunderstanding, having anything I say or do misinterpreted at any time into something he thinks it is.

I regreted laughing at the joke the guy made about a cheating wife on the internet the minute I said it. The alternative would have been to lie that I was laughing about something else, but I can't lie like that. It was just one of those things that you see while browsing on the internet looking at something else, and I laughed at it.

That led to him asking me if I was cheating. I said no. Then I went out to a 12 step meeting, and he asked again where I was going and where it was. I told him that last week and the week before. Every week there is a meeting at the same place and I go when I can.

I have a hunch that he knows where the meeting is, but asks me each time to see if I am consistent or making up a story, in which case I may mess up the facts. The other thing is that he is often not present mentally when I explain something to him. He tends to forget a lot of things we talk about. I think it's a combination of stress, business, and also he works so hard to control what he says that I am not sure if he hears me. Sometimes I repeat myself and that irritates him.

This time I felt irritated at being asked again. However, I answered his questions calmly. I know that if I said anything like "you asked me that last week" or seemed irritated, that he'd get triggered. When I came back, he asked me again about that story I read on the internet. Honestly, I didn't get past the first paragraph. I wasn't that interested in it, just  laughed at the joke I saw.

It's sad that this launched his thoughts, but it could have been anything- a TV show, or nothing at all that provokes this.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks Sweetheart, sometimes I just want to cry too. It seems like I am always on the verge of misunderstanding, having anything I say or do misinterpreted at any time into something he thinks it is.

I regreted laughing at the joke the guy made about a cheating wife on the internet the minute I said it. The alternative would have been to lie that I was laughing about something else, but I can't lie like that. It was just one of those things that you see while browsing on the internet looking at something else, and I laughed at it.

That led to him asking me if I was cheating. I said no. Then I went out to a 12 step meeting, and he asked again where I was going and where it was. I told him that last week and the week before. Every week there is a meeting at the same place and I go when I can.

I have a hunch that he knows where the meeting is, but asks me each time to see if I am consistent or making up a story, in which case I may mess up the facts. The other thing is that he is often not present mentally when I explain something to him. He tends to forget a lot of things we talk about. I think it's a combination of stress, business, and also he works so hard to control what he says that I am not sure if he hears me. Sometimes I repeat myself and that irritates him.

This time I felt irritated at being asked again. However, I answered his questions calmly. I know that if I said anything like "you asked me that last week" or seemed irritated, that he'd get triggered. When I came back, he asked me again about that story I read on the internet. Honestly, I didn't get past the first paragraph. I wasn't that interested in it, just  laughed at the joke I saw.

It's sad that this launched his thoughts, but it could have been anything- a TV show, or nothing at all that provokes this.

Notwendy, that just shows how insecure he is and fearful that you could find someone else. I've been accused of having a secret relationship, which is so bizarre because I rarely leave the ranch and when I do, it's usually with him.

I know exactly what you mean about explaining something when they're not "mentally present" and then being irritated when I repeat myself. "You've said that," is one of the most common phrases out of my husband's mouth. Sometimes I need to say something again (not launching into a detailed explanation verbatim, but just referencing the topic) and I'll get the "you said that," before I even say what I need to say. These pwBPD can be so exhausting! Maybe that's the NPD part.

[Notwendy]

Thanks for that Cat.

Yes, the talking to him while he is checked out is madening.

[Notwendy]

Cat, it's sad to think that the only thing that could chase me away is how he treats me when he is angry. When I married him I meant it when I promised to love him, and he was the one to stomp on that.

[Cat Familiar]

It's really sad that they sometimes push us in the direction they're afraid we'll go.

He will tell me that I'd be much happier with a cowboy. And he has a good point. I'd love to have a husband who rides horses with me, could help me with the goats and sheep, who isn't afraid of getting his hands dirty, who could help me mend fences and dig holes and plant gardens. It ain't him. But I'm not looking elsewhere.

[vortex of confusion]

It's really sad that they sometimes push us in the direction they're afraid we'll go.

Yep, that is exactly where mine pushed me. After 15 years, I went there and it feels like there is no going back. He doesn't seem to care one way or the other so I have tried to care enough for both of us and it didn't work. Now, I am in a place where I care and don't care all at the same time.

[Notwendy]

Mine tells me I'd be happier with ( his words) a touchy feely psychologist.

Sometimes when we were dating, and he seemed angry about some aspect of me, I'd say to him "wouldn't you rather be with someone more like what you want to see in me?"  Then he'd convince me that no, it was me he wanted.

I actually gave him many opportunities to find someone else, even though I, at the time, didn't have someone else in mind, and he always said it was me he wanted to be with. Even at the worst time, when he painted me black, I gave him the opportunity to leave. I thought, if he's that unhappy with me, why not just leave? Now I realize that I was the perfect co -dependent partner, why would he? He could have his rage and then have me work to make him happy.

Why didn't I leave? I thought about it, but the kids and I were dependent on him, and just when I thought things were terrible, he'd push the rewind button and be wonderful again.

[Grey Kitty]

I guess a better question might be "How the heck do I know what is my business and what isn't?"

One short answer is work on your boundaries. I found this essay, complete with illustrations to be wonderful. At the end are some very good and fairly specific examples of where to draw healthy boundaries.

www.alturtle.com/archives/173

(Aside: I LOVE this essay, but am not so impressed by other things about this guy, especially his way of trying to sell counseling services in a way that he doesn't need to be licensed.)

Next thought: Decide for yourself what is your business and what isn't. Don't be afraid to make 'wrong' decisions this way. If you do, you will soon find difficulties arising from that and get to re-examine it. (Both the stressful reminder to re-examine and the chance to do so are free! Every Time!)

And then, if I determine that something isn't my business, what do I say without sounding like a real jerk? If he asks a question about something that I don't want to share, how do I respond without being a jerk?

Sounding like a jerk by whose standards?  Use your own.

Just because he either A) calls you a jerk, or B) reacts badly to your boundary enforcement in some other way doesn't mean you are actually wrong.

Your standards of what is being a jerk for you are YOUR BUSINESS!