What is a quiet BPD, what was my ex -- and what am I?

[redvelvetc]

Hi, I'm (very) new here and like everyone, I came across this site while trying to search for answers knowing full well I'm not about to get them from my ex-boyfriend. Because he is undiagnosed, I feel like I'm hovering between states of knowledge constantly -- "Is it REALLY PTSD or heartbreak?" (I read this in a previous thread), ":)oes he REALLY have BPD or is he just 'simply depressed' or 'an ass'?" "IS HE JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU?" The last few are what has often been put forth to me by friends and non-BPD-specific forums I've visited, which makes me even more upset wondering if I've somehow become so vindictive and bitter in the last couple of years that I have to accuse my ex of a mental disorder because he left me. If I have, then I want to know -- because this is certainly not something I'd like to have following me or the people I care about for the rest of my days.

But is it or is it not? I don't really know where to begin. My ex is the waif-type/quiet BPD and because of that it became extraordinarily difficult for me to call him out on his self-centeredness and constant sense of helpless resentment towards others (friends and family) who are happier or what he perceives to be 'better' than he is. His comments were never made in angry rages, always in the guise of an innocent but eternally sad little boy, i.e. "I guess HE really got his life together even though I guess I was sort of his big brother back in school. . .", "Wow, you're really good and sensible with money. . .unlike me." He has openly admitted to not really caring or thinking about most people he meets, but said it in the context of my being the "special one" that he actually felt something when we first started talking.

He is very sensitive and cries in sad movies, or when he sees people crying, but I don't know if this points to a mirrored empathy, or too much empathy. He is constantly worried that he "doesn't know how to comfort people", which first struck me as odd when he said it -- usually he just hugs them (family members) and can't come up with anything to say. When confronted or told off, however, he does not rage or weep. He either stutters and then falls into a silence that lasts for hours (not the silent treatment, a literal live and in-person silence) or speaks in a passive-aggressive monotone.

I don't think he is an evil monster at heart. So how do I chart this type of manipulation AS manipulation in order to understand the situation better? But because I am still (I like to think) a relatively normal human person, it hasn't been easy for me to just wash my hands off the matter and quit feeling anything for him, disordered or not. After all, it happened less than a month ago, and I'm almost jealous of how quickly he has been able to retract and it many ways that makes me feel like archetypal clingy and weak woman that people complain about. I've been reading about quiet BPDs and how many people seem to be writing it off as a branch of pop psychology, which again, doesn't really reassure me about my own judgement. . .but it doesn't seem that far-fetched for them to exist, and I was wondering if anyone has had some direct experience, or could shed some light on that?

He's been in group therapy (that is more like life coaching than diagnostic) for nearly two years now but not much has changed. The prognosis is the same now as when I first got to know him -- "I am always so fearful of things because my mother emotionally abandoned me as a child." Whenever there is tension in the relationship, his first words are always "It's because of my mother. . ." whom I've never even met, the poor lady. I don't know if making this connection between his current state of being and his childhood has helped him in any way or if he's just relieved that he has something concrete to blame for how he's failed to live up to his own expectations of what life "should be like" for someone as creative, sensitive etc. as he is for the past 15 or so years. I came to the PD hypothesis on my own and have no intentions of breaking NC to tell him this. I did tell him that I cared about him still and to sort himself out in my final message to him -- he left suddenly, and when I asked him to explain his actions like any confused person would, he alternated between giving me the silent treatment and agreeing that what he did was "wrong" and that "I deserved better". The last straw was when he asked to meet me to talk, and when I sent him a follow-up asking for the time and place, he said to "leave him alone" because "it was over". But I don't think my words now will have any impact on him, and if he could go from being completely upbeat and loving one night and insisting that he had somehow "lost all feelings" the next night (it was literally a 24-hour turnaround) there is no doubt in my mind that he would have convinced himself of a lot more horrible things about me and the relationship for him to do what he did.

At this point I am still grappling with a lot of guilt and lapse into long moments where a voice protests, "But he did enrol himself in therapy. . .", "But he seems to know there's something wrong with him. . .", "that it still makes me very uncomfortable to classify what I've gone through as emotional abuse. But reading about things like love-bombing (which was hard for me to accept. . .that the connection that I felt so intensely was only just that), mirroring, and the lack of accountability in BPDs. . .I won't say something has clicked, but some things that were left up in the air are slowly beginning to fall into place. I was quite a cheerful and open person before I met him -- I do have some trust problems, romance-wise, and tend to put people at arm's length when things take that turn, which is why I feel like my sense of judgment and perception which I thought to be watertight has really let me down now. But I loved my friends, and I loved my hobbies, and now I feel like I'm losing my grasp on those things and turning into him.

I guess what I'm really afraid of is that he's going to meet somebody else and all of his complaints will disappear -- that somehow this could get a whole lot worse by me finding out that I was bad for him after all and that all these theories about disorders were only because I needed to blame him to help myself cope. I don't feel this is true, but how would I know? When I couldn't cheer him up when he had a bad day at work or couldn't bring himself to work on his music or art, the ensuing sulking and withdrawing implied that because these 'sadness triggers' weren't about our relationship, i.e., if I didn't have what it took for him to at least take comfort in the fact that hey, at least he was in a relationship with someone wonderful, maybe I wasn't that wonderful, and that he was better off without this 'bad' relationship. Is this really how BPDs typically respond to setbacks in their life that don't relate to you in any way -- by painting you black as a way of dealing with it? I can't wrap my head around it in the least.

I've been in relationships that ended badly before -- plain old heartbreak, call it -- and have always been able to face them in quite a healthy way and get on with my life. Nothing like this. I now have panic attacks, insomnia, hair loss (!) and am now looking to see a therapist which I'm quite frightened and apprehensive about. (Therapy and mental illness still being a huge stigma here in Asia, where I've moved to recently during/after the breakup for work. There is also the language barrier, there aren't many qualified therapists here who speak English.) This forum has really helped me, if not with the diagnosis (I still think maybe that should come from a T, and that maybe I should go for some tests too -- I just feel like I can't trust my own judgement anymore), then at least in the kind words of support from its members. So many of them have been through episodes with your partners that charted far worse than mine, which at least never ventured into the realm of violent physical abuse, yet here they are, some fully recovered, others not, but all offering good thoughts and words of advice to people like myself. I just wanted to say thank you for that.

[Copperfox]

Hey Redvelvet, sounds like you are going through alot.  The best advice I can give, is to be patient with yourself, and understand that having doubts about these decisions is normal.  Many of the things you describe sound like BPD behavior, but the label doesn't really matter.  Focus on the behaviors.  It sounds like many of those were problematic, and not conducive towards a successful, healthy, long-term relationship.

A great starting place is to read this article:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

Really captures a lot of the confusion that surrounds these types of breakups.

To answer the question in your thread title ... .A quiet or waif type borderline is one who rages inwards, rather than outwards.  So there's not as much of the yelling and vitriol, perhaps occasional moments, but things tend to come out in other passive-aggressive behaviors.  These pwBPD can be deceptive, since they don't fit some of the stereoptypes you may read about here on the boards or across the internet.  But the underlying disordered thought processes are the same, the paranoia, disassociation, etc. ... .and the end result for intimate relationships is often the same.

Here are some old threads on BPD waif:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=174804.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

[ManyPieces]

Hello there,

I am also new here and read your post and wow we are going through the exact same thing, to very last point. I'm not sure I can offer any advice but I just felt like maybe hearing my story might help because it is really similar and reading yours helped me a lot. All the points you touched on are the same points that I always think about. I like you, also struggle with the thought "does he really have BPD? Maybe if he had been with another girl maybe he would have been happier? Maybe I am terrible for accusing him of having this disorder"

I dated my ex for about a year and we had so many break ups. I actually look back at my journal and can't believe I went through all that and am able to live to tell about it. A lot of the time he would get distant one night and then the next day would say this isn't going to work. So like you I would ask because I was confused and his response would be "I lost feelings, or I don't love you anymore" and this would confuse me more so and his response was always "people fall in and out of love all the time" but then a day or a week later he would reach out (we work together  ) and say I don't know why I was such an ass. The first break up especially made me feel like hmm this is weird behavior because he broke up with me and then hours later texted me saying "I'm going to miss being with you, us making each other laugh, being intimate with you" (sorry if that is TMI haha) I look back on it and the pattern I kinda see is anytime we got super close or there were signs that our relationship was getting more intense he would retreat. For example he met my family and after that he dumped me.

Currently I'm going through the hardest breakup because I know this is the final one. He had suffered from addiction before me and I guess was doing it behind my back ad when we broke up a month ago got into drugs and alcohol so much that he had to leave work and go to rehab. I wasn't in contact with him for about 3 weeks. I cut him off after he broke up with me and did NC. But I heard he hadn't been doing the greatest and hey I still loved the guy so I reached out before he went to rehab.We spent a weekend together just watching movies and hanging out. He even said "I love you, I always will" so after this he called me everyday once  he got to rehab. One day I went to visit him and brought him a journal to write about his struggles and his fave candy and chips. He kissed me on the lips when I arrived, so like any girl I got excited thinking maybe he didn't mean all those mean things he said when we broke up. Later that night I waited for his nightly call. And of course it didn't come. So I emailed and asked about the kiss and of course I get the "I love you as a ffriend, nothing more. People fall out and in love all the time" same ole speech. So I blocked him from everywhere. I thought I could be there for him but I gotta take care of me.

Anyways I am so terrified of hearing when he is better he will find a girl who he had a healthy normal relationship with and she gets the boyfriend I always wanted and needed. So I am in the same boat as you. I also am worried to find out that he didn't have this disorder but it was me and him together that was wrong. Or me.

Another point you made that mirrors me is how hard it's break up is. I am 28 and have had my share of breakups, and I get sad but I rebuild myself and I'm okay, this relationship has taken over my life. I used to this fun pragmatic girl always wanting to be out and about. I have changed in a lot of ways. I'm content with Netflix and wine . I keep thinking maybe I'm addicted to the drama because as soon as I cut him out I felt this huge loss. Like I lost a limb. Days seem so futile. I'm getting a bit better now but still weighs on my mind a lot. I always feel like why couldn't I have been enough to make this work. I don't understand how you can date someone for a year and just fall out of love. I understand relationships not working but feelings aren't lost. Feelings lost happens after 35 years of marriage. I'll stop rambling. I guess I am just as hurt and confused as you

Oh and also I brought up his behaviour and how it kind of resembles BPD. He freaked out and said I am not a doc and can't diagnose him with a disorder. So my advice is don't break NC to tell him. It's pointless and it will make you regress because I'm sure they don't want to admit there is a problem. Well with my guy anyway... .

Oh and he is very similar to yours in the way he puts people down around him. Or envies guys who "have their lives together" he is very critical of people and in a very harsh way.  He had an opinion of everyone around him. It was almost like disgust and resentment he saw some people. And I would never understand it.  He would go from envying one of his guy friends to switching and saying "I was wrong he actually is a mess" it was very black and white. He either admired them and liked them or had no respect. It's hilarious because when he breaks up with me, sometimes my gut reaction is did you ever love me? And he says "Erin you think so black and white, and life isn't like that" and it's hilarious because I always thought he was a very black and white thinker.


What is love bombing? I am curious.

Please know that it will get better with space and time. Once you distance yourself you do see all the signs and can realize this wasnt your fault. No matter what

[Blimblam]

Well it sounds like your putting effort into understanding the dynamics and patterns and I think that is more important than a diagnosis.  It's not an easy thing to do i and I commend you for reaching out. 

My ex was an upwBPD, undiagnosed person with BPD and the quiet type I had a relatuonship with the quiet type before the first one was more out of control. I've also known personally a few other people with BPD and though I am not an expert one thing is clear each of these people were unique and had their own comorbid idiosyncratic sides of their personality.  My most recent ex didn't cut but she began to cry a lot and start arguments as if I was her father punishing her or abandoning her.   Followed by a period of treating me poorly and seeking replacements.  My ex never raged at me. 

My first ex also a quiet botderline would cut herself and rage now as then. Her behavior was more obvious than my most recent ex.  One thing is certain if I asked either of them flat out of they were crazy while not in an arguement or when on bad terms they would say yes. 

I'm any case it is the patterns we fall into and the underlying reasons why that are most important to address.  Learning about the triggers and dynamics to be able to recognize in real time what's going on outside of what alsmot seems like an automated response system we all seem to have ingrained into each of us.  If you can get therapy their i recomend it.  Also reading psychology books helps a lot.  The site has a recomended list and that's a good place to start. 

[Hawk Ridge]

My story is very similar.  The quiet high functioning types can really make you question yiur reality.  Most of the time I feel like I am almost over her.  She is with someone else and I have reached a place of compassion for my replacement as I am sure she is experiencing the pain I did and will when my expwBPD dumped me abruptly, "falling out of love with me" and no other explanation.

[Blimblam]

One thing that was concistant is during the devaluation period both of my quiet BPD exs actively decieved me constantly and took pleasure in knowing they had deceived me. Their was a "smirk" a sadistic smirk. They took pleasure in my pain as if it was some sort of revenge for how I had failed them over some imagined slight that caused me to become a trigger for them.  When ever I tried to have a discussion about resolving the issue the disorder would be triggered and a lot of freakinf out and crying a look of fear in their eyes.  The first ex would then go cut herself.  The second would punish me later in other ways, mainly by becoming hypercritical of me. 

[ManyPieces]

One thing that was concistant is during the devaluation period both of my quiet BPD exs actively decieved me constantly and took pleasure in knowing they had deceived me. Their was a "smirk" a sadistic smirk. They took pleasure in my pain as if it was some sort of revenge for how I had failed them over some imagined slight that caused me to become a trigger for them.  When ever I tried to have a discussion about resolving the issue the disorder would be triggered and a lot of freakinf out and crying a look of fear in their eyes.  The first ex would then go cut herself.  The second would punish me later in other ways, mainly by becoming hypercritical of me. 

yea my first broke up went a little something like this "yea i dont really like you, i think i was lonely. You say sorry a lot. We arent a good match"

i have had a ton of relationships in my life and that sort of break up has NEVER happened. So mean and saddistic. And dead in the eyes as well, whenever he got into thsi breakup mean mode his eyes would change. I also noticed the smirk. Then of course the next day "i  miss you"

[JRT]

Sorry to hear that everyone is going through this.

I took note redvelvets observation of BPD (specifically the waif type) as being some form of dismiss able pop psychology. I am sure that my ex would agree with that, and maybe insist that she is the one that is ok and I am the one that has the disorder. I mean; don't normal people break up with one another over imagined slights? And THEN circle back as if nothing happened after the fact? Don't normal people complain about little or nothing then blow up out of nowhere and regard the person that loves them most as evil incarnate? Normal people spend 2 years adoring their partner, agree to marriage, plan for it, move in, then disappear never to be seen or heard from again having left no address and blocking them from contact in ever imaginable way; prompted by absolutely nothing - no argument, no disagreement... .nothing. Thats perfectly normal behavior! EVERYONE does stuff like that!

My BPDex also never raged and we rarely disagreed or argued. It was this facet of our relationship that bothered me. However, her son was a disaster of a human being. Not hooked o drugs, violent or in any trouble with the law. He was simply entirely dysfunctional as a human being: 18 years old and he had BARELY graduated from special high school program, could not keep dishwasher jobs for more than a week, had no friends and was perfectly happy to sit at home and play video games round the clock failing to perform even the most menial tasks related to being at home and such. She raged against him without a break and I suspect, rewarded his dysfunction by virtue of her need for chaos. It was an interesting triangulation. Does your have a third party that he raged against in a similar way?

[Blimblam]

Jrt.  That is where it becomes noticeable the instability in their closest relationships.  But my ex really does not rage at anyone she escalated things to arguements then cries and falls into the role of the persecuted.  In my case I now realize that my expectations my ex would understand something she did not the emotional maturity to understand scared her and she didn't know how to communicate this in a mature way.  She felt like a failure and was upset and was simply acting out that she felt like a failure and I was a punitive parent it was an act of desperation.  The devaluation after that and where it brought me was by far the most painful experience of my life. 

The quiet borderline will often act in by self harm or self sabataging impulsive behavior.  Or will dysregulate and cry a lot. Pushing their partner to a place the partner expressed frustration then crying because the partners frustration hurts them.  Their are two sides though and if the demands of the partner might be ones that trigger a non borderline person as well. 

My ex drove me nuts by convincing me I was constantly paranoid and imagining things that were actually happening.  Because it was so subtle at first and their were no obvious signs of the disorder it drove me off the edge of sanity and hurt me much much more than even a previous relationship with a girl with more obvious signs of the disorder.

[drummerboy]

Amen to your post. I was with the quiet high functioning type too. Gas lighting was her speciality. Dumped me ultra abrubtly, funny thing, on our last day together she said "I love you but I'm not in love with you" This sums up the BPD perfectly. They love the "in love" (infatuation stage) when reality hits, that we are not the Disney perfect partner, they are shattered. I think of my r/s as a fairytale that she concocted, when the fairytale got a whiff of reality about it, she was gone.

My story is very similar.  The quiet high functioning types can really make you question yiur reality.  Most of the time I feel like I am almost over her.  She is with someone else and I have reached a place of compassion for my replacement as I am sure she is experiencing the pain I did and will when my expwBPD dumped me abruptly, "falling out of love with me" and no other explanation.

[peace_seeker]

I guess what I'm really afraid of is that he's going to meet somebody else and all of his complaints will disappear -- that somehow this could get a whole lot worse by me finding out that I was bad for him after all and that all these theories about disorders were only because I needed to blame him to help myself cope. I don't feel this is true, but how would I know? When I couldn't cheer him up when he had a bad day at work or couldn't bring himself to work on his music or art, the ensuing sulking and withdrawing implied that because these 'sadness triggers' weren't about our relationship, i.e., if I didn't have what it took for him to at least take comfort in the fact that hey, at least he was in a relationship with someone wonderful, maybe I wasn't that wonderful, and that he was better off without this 'bad' relationship. Is this really how BPDs typically respond to setbacks in their life that don't relate to you in any way -- by painting you black as a way of dealing with it? I can't wrap my head around it in the least.

Dear redvelvetc, I'm so sorry to read about what you are going through.   If it is of any comfort to know, what you've shared is the same as what I've gone through. I really feel for you especially on the point above. I was obsessed about this when the BU first happened. I needed to know for sure whether he is BPD, he is abusive or not, or etc etc etc. I need to put the blame of this breakup on something absolute and to know that I've done enough, the problem is with him, the problem is not with me. And I fear the day which he'll move and find true happiness, and all these theory of him being the one who is flawed would fall through. I feel your pain babe 

I've been on counselling and i've shared this fear repeatedly with my counsellor. Whenever I asked her if my ex would ever be able to happily settle down with someone, my counsellor would tell me that yes, he might. Even though it was a painful & cruel reply, it helps me to accept the fact that yes, he WILL move on eventually. The thing is, even if ur ex eventually moves on to someone else, it doesn't mean that you are flawed and you are the one who let him down. It doesnt' mean that he's not abusive, or he was always right in this r/s with you. It doesn't make him any more superior in anyway. What happened b/w u and him is still true: there must have been reasons as to why you felt the way you did when you were with him (sorry i do not know what exactly leads to the BU so i can't comment much on that). And, maybe through this breakup with you, he might also have learnt something about himself that might help him in his next r/s. So yes, he may one day move on with someone else, he may seems happy, but that doesn't mean it was all your fault that this r/s did not go through!

I know it's alot easier said than done, but trust me, i've been down this road before and it took me a hell lot of mental work to get this into my head. Be gentle towards yourself my dear.

And wrt to your question, yes, i would say that they always paint you black so that it is easier for them to move on without any guilt. My ex was the one who walked away, he also painted me black, sent me tonnes of abusive emails and text, blaming me for everything, and then, appearing like the abandoned on FB. WAIF. I've tried v hard to uds this, and i think the closest explanation that i can come up with is that my ex just believe that i've let him down and so he hates me for that and he blames the breakup on this (how i've let him down). Thus, in his opinion, he is abandoned and pitiful, and yes he has all the rights to hate me.

i dont know if it makes any sense but that's how i interpreted things... .

hang in there my dear. be gentle towards yourself and try to think of all the nasty things that he've put you through. as you get reminded more and more of those actual events, whether he is a BPD or not wouldn't matter anymore because you'll see that how he treated you was just not right.

[Blimblam]

While I really don't know if your ex has BPD the dynamic that leads to the kind of pain you are in from the relatuonship fall into the category of codependency.  Was your ex BPD? Maybeaybe not, the parallels between codependency and BPD are many.  It is a possibility that it's just you and your ex are codepent and your ex has a more avoidant attachment style than you. 

[redvelvetc]

Wow. First of all, I'd just like to say a huge thank you to every single one of you enough for taking the time to weigh in on my situation, and for all the kind and supportive words that came with it. It's actually been a rather difficult week -- I just had my first ever session via Skype with a therapist from back home in London and I'm not sure what to feel about it. (I've pretty much washed my hands off trying to find anybody legitimate here in Japan.)

The therapist I contacted specialises in DBT and personality disorders, especially borderline. I was really nervous about therapy because I've never had reason to turn to it in my life until now, and on top of that I was already wondering about my sanity/narrative reliability after the relationship ended. Plus, as my ex was not diagnosed there was so much guilt and vacillating that came with wondering if he was disordered, and part of me was terrified that this was actually me subconsciously attempting to dupe the T into believing my "typical ass, but on the whole relatively innocent guy" was some sort of monster, simply because he broke up with me. After all, how many accounts have we come across from those who attempted couple's therapy only to have their BPD partners turn the therapists against them. . .

He interrupted me after about 20 minutes into the session to assure me that he was 150% certain I did not have borderline personality disorder. When I then asked why it was that I felt insane and wondered if I was sick, he then replied that it was a symptom of trauma from being attached to someone who was disordered. The kick in the gut was when he said my ex didn't even show that many signs of BPD at this stage. . .but rather Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I don't know what to make of that information. Or how to begin addressing the very real possibility that everything in this relationship -- the good and the bad, and more importantly all the things I'd felt -- were a direct product of a mental disorder rather than anything concrete and real shared between two people.

My firs instinctive response was -- wait. How can someone who shows signs of being a QUIET BPD turn out to be a narcissist? We're talking about someone who always shied from the limelight, was afraid to take initiative for anything (including asking a restaurant hostess if our table was ready. . .), constantly berated himself, etc.

These are some of the retrospective red flags that have surfaced, but again, I'm finding it very hard to trust myself and as it was only my first session with the therapist I'm wondering if any of you have experienced any of the following and might be able to shed some light on it.

a) He would, like I said, often compare himself to others. His tone of voice when he did this was perpetually depressed and wistful, like a sad little boy. And that always made it really difficult for me to call him out on it. Some of the things he said really were petty and unwarranted -- especially when they were about friends that he had since childhood and who were nice, happy-go-lucky people who cared about him -- but because he never said it in a mean way I felt like I had no jurisdiction. I don't know if he did this on purpose; it's chilling to think that he might have. Once he said that maybe the reason why he harps on our age difference (he's 10 years older and has problems with being 10 years older, it's definitely more about his ageing than my being 'underaged' is because there was a large age gap between him and his siblings and he "subconsciously wanted me to know how it felt to be isolated."  I got a little upset (this was after the first breakup and I still had problems trusting him wholeheartedly) and he laughed gently and sweetly and said he was only sharing what came out in therapy with me because he thought it would make us closer. I bought it.

b) His self-centredness worked the same way. The first night after I left the country we talked on the phone and he seemed so sad. I know part of it was because he missed me. . .or so he says. But he also admitted to being upset that no one at work bar one girl had asked him how he was coping with my departure.

c) I have, I admit, wondered in the past if he really hated himself or if he was in love with himself. If he didn't make friends at our work after ten years on the job because he "wouldn't join a club that'd have him as a member" as the PD saying goes, or if he thinks he deserved 'real' friends who were more artistic, good-looking etc. than our ex-colleagues. His first day on his new job he was terrified of being "the new guy" who would be asked all sorts of questions, or be put in the spotlight if he made a mistake. The next week he told me that some new hires had joined the team, and sounded distinctly disappointed and resentful that he "wasn't the new guy anymore." I don't get it.

d) One of the things that made me think he WASN'T BPD was that this guy had a stable job. In fact it was so stable that he didn't change it for 10 years, never missed a day even when he was sick, and literally needed four years of rumination before he finally changed it, supposedly at my encouragement. (I'm well-prepared for the possibility that I'm going to be the one to blame if the job doesn't end up changing his life.) He was definitely not spontaneous or adventurous. His impulses usually involved food or shopping, but then again so do many of ours. He used to be a raging "lonely" alcoholic but decided to get clean five years ago "to feel better about himself." That said, he absolutely despised his old job, complained about it constantly, complained about PHYSICALLY not being able to leave it constantly, admitted to only doing the bare minimum (and feeling horrible and guilty about it but going back in again the next day only to do the same) and blamed his unhappiness with the workplace for a lot that's been going wrong in his life over the last couple of years, including his last failed relationship. (Continued below.)

e) What did your exes have to say about their exes? Mine would sound extremely sad (again), sorry and apologetic that he hadn't "handled the breakup better", but eventually the reason for why things ended was along the lines of "I was forced into doing things she wanted to do", "she was on the bossy side" and "my friends told me after we broke up that they thought ______ [name of ex] seemed more into me than I was into her". He said the reason why our relationship was so meaningful and special was that I never pushed him and he felt encouraged to take the initiative with me re: first kiss, first date etc. It breaks my heart to look back on all of that now because I will never know how much of that is true. I still can't bring myself to say that he had sat down one day and cleverly orchestrated this from start to finish; if so, if he had spent even 1% of that energy on his art or his job he would be in a much better place than he could ever imagine.

To be fair his ex before this one did seem like a complete nut -- she had major anger issues and would ask him how much he loved her 24/7, would dictate what time they went to bed because she HAD to sleep on his shoulder, blah blah blah. She also proposed an open relationship and went ahead and slept with a co-worker even when my ex said he "wasn't very happy with the idea" (I hope to God that wasn't actually how he confronted her?) When I first heard all of this I just felt so incredibly bad for him and thought, "No wonder he's in therapy, this must all be too traumatic." And now I just feel completely stupid and worthless because he had actually stayed with these people whom he had claimed were so horrible and abusive for YEARS, and moved in with them (even though he insinuated that he was "dragged into that too" but could walk away from ours, the so-called "chosen one", so easily. This and wondering about whom I might be replaced with, what god awful things he must be saying about ME now, has been causing me so much anxiety that I actually dreamt last week that he killed himself -- not because he loved me and couldn't be with me, but simply because I was so horrible to be with that the experience had driven him to suicide. The therapist will have a field day with that one.

What frustrates me still -- as I'm sure it has for so many before us -- is that they've left us to seek the answers about OUR relationship on our own, from a complete stranger. A medical professional, yes, but someone who hadn't been there all along and known what it was like. We're the only ones who can validate our experiences but because of all the contradictory behaviour, the paranoia and anxiety that ensued, we can't even perform the dead simple task of saying, "YES -- I know for certain I/you said this, WE did this," whether it was months or years ago or -- again, this seems to be a common pattern -- literally 24 hours before the discard, when things seemed totally normal. It's stuff like that that makes me think that I can have 20 shrinks all giving me the same diagnoses and I'll be unable to believe it 100%, because he has ditched all accountability and left the question wide open for good.

The emotion that still visits me the most is anger. Since the session I've felt angry at my ex's therapist, because he's been in that group for over a year and as far as I know the only thing that's come out of it is that everything that happens to him is because of his mother. . .I get that I'm not being entirely fair, because it IS group therapy without a specific focus; everyone in there comes from all walks and it's closer to a life coaching seminar of sorts than psychotherapy. He's high-functioning and a very low-profile person, so I get that none of his PD symptoms would be glaringly obvious, or there's some specific clause that is preventing his therapist from telling him he might actually be suffering from something. At this point I don't even know if I trust him enough to be honest in therapy or if he's just there for validation and somebody to blame his inadequacies on. I'm dreading the day I actually find out he's made or fantasised all this stuff up about his mother, as that will literally make him and out-and-out psychopath. It also pains me to witness the irony of how the high-functioning borderlines are the ones who stand the least chance of getting better, simply because they are so hard to pick out in a crowd and don't exhibit the extreme behaviour that would force them to get help. Even friends who are on my side hem and haw when I mention the possibility that he has a personality disorder -- after all, he wasn't hurling chairs at me or openly sleeping with 20 women. Everyone at work had nothing to say about him except that he was "nice". But "nice" will always be his immunity, and that's why I feel so grateful for this community of strangers right now, because I have a feeling I'll be dealing with this alone for a long time.

[redvelvetc]

Jrt.  That is where it becomes noticeable the instability in their closest relationships.  But my ex really does not rage at anyone she escalated things to arguements then cries and falls into the role of the persecuted.  In my case I now realize that my expectations my ex would understand something she did not the emotional maturity to understand scared her and she didn't know how to communicate this in a mature way.  She felt like a failure and was upset and was simply acting out that she felt like a failure and I was a punitive parent it was an act of desperation.  The devaluation after that and where it brought me was by far the most painful experience of my life. 

The quiet borderline will often act in by self harm or self sabataging impulsive behavior.  Or will dysregulate and cry a lot. Pushing their partner to a place the partner expressed frustration then crying because the partners frustration hurts them.  Their are two sides though and if the demands of the partner might be ones that trigger a non borderline person as well. 

My ex drove me nuts by convincing me I was constantly paranoid and imagining things that were actually happening.  Because it was so subtle at first and their were no obvious signs of the disorder it drove me off the edge of sanity and hurt me much much more than even a previous relationship with a girl with more obvious signs of the disorder.

Blimblam, Hawk Ridge, JRT -- I'm sorry to hear about your painful experiences. The smirk/smile thing sounded horrifying. It's almost as though they delighted in hurting others, which is something that I do not want to believe about BPDs. . .it's hard enough to know that we might be dealing with loved ones who are so ill. And I have also read that covert narcs/high-functioning borderlines are the most notorious when it comes to making their partners doubt their sanity and reality. Did yours resort to typical gas lighting tactics, i.e. talking you down and insisting that you were crazy etc. or was it a lot more covert than that?

My ex used to drive me to utter frustration when I would remind him of loving things he said or did that totally contradicted his behaviour -- in response, he would either go quiet or sadly wonder if he had really said it. He admits to having a horrible memory. But what on earth can I say in response to that? There was no way I could convince somebody of what he claims to not remember, and because of that, it started to feel like I was forcing my opinions on him, or that maybe I was the one who was making it up. It's one thing to forget things like your travel pass or one or two conversations, but surely nobody's memory can be so CONSISTENTLY bad? So maybe I had fantasised it. . .?

Like JRT's, mine never raged -- in fact, he would often admit that he COULDN'T, and was carrying around a lot of repressed anger that he simply didn't know how to let out. I don't know how it's possible for him to realize this but not do anything with it, but one of the things I've seen over and over about recovery forums is that we need to understand that we can't "put ourselves in their shoes" in order to explain their actions -- because the only possible explanation is that they are pure evil and hell-bent on manipulating, subjugating and destroying us right from the start. As terrible as our experiences have been, I think we can all agree that it's definitely much more complicated than that.

[jhkbuzz]

My ex used to drive me to utter frustration when I would remind him of loving things he said or did that totally contradicted his behaviour -- in response, he would either go quiet or sadly wonder if he had really said it. He admits to having a horrible memory.

That sounds dissociative... .did he suffer from headaches by any chance?

[redvelvetc]

What is love bombing? I am curious.

Sorry if I'm peppering this thread with multiple lengthy posts but I just wanted to also respond to this bit -- not sure if I'll get it entirely right so if anyone has additional thoughts do jump right in.

From what I've read, this is essentially the answer to the popular question, "Why is it so hard to get over my BPD ex?" Like you, this relationship was easily the shortest of my serious, long-term relationships. But I have never reacted this way to any of the others -- and lord knows I was totally sad and distraught when they ended. But I also knew exactly why they ended, and I know very clearly where those people stood in my life -- more importantly, I also knew where I stood in theirs. Those relationships may not have lasted, but they were real while they lasted.

Love-bombing refers to how we were treated in the first stages of the relationship -- essentially, like treasure. None of my other exes treated me badly by ANY means when we first started dating, but with BPD partners there seems to be for want of a better word, a connection that is both incredibly intense and downright uncanny. Certainly it was with mine -- we liked ALL of the same things. When I caught him looking at me, and saw the look of pure devotion and happiness on his face, I was actually embarrassed to think, "Wow -- he really does care about me" because it seemed so egotistical. But it WAS there, all over his face. He would actually break into tears because he was "so happy" that we were together. I've also read that there have been instances of BPDs who "joke" about (in the milder cases -- mine did that) or insist (in the extreme ones) on marriage or kids just weeks or months into the relationship.

Love-bombing is, from what I gather, the reason why all of us weren't able to cut our losses and leave sooner. Because they had shown themselves to be capable of this loving behaviour -- indeed, that it is actually their organic state that is buried deep under their addictions and illness and what not, since we saw it right from the start -- the only thing left to do is to wait and/or work until they overcome their issues and return to us. However, I suspect that it really means waiting and/or working until WE overcome their issues.

During a search on quiet BPD, I remember reading the exact same words in a post from years and years ago -- someone had dated a BPD girl for 7 months and became suicidal after the breakup. He had never been a remotely depressed or unstable -- like us, he'd always been cheerful and handled things relatively well. The shock of the breakup and feeling like you never knew this person, followed closely by the shock of realizing that your reaction to it is abnormal and you now feel like you might not even have known YOURSELF -- it overwhelmed me completely, and is the main reason why I've decided to take everyone's advice and speak to a therapist. My hair was falling out, I was turning to sleeping pills, and alienating my friends -- none of them seem to understand why I'm in this much pain and all they want for me is to get better. But the consensus I get from reading the forums is that as much as our own behaviour might seem deranged and clingy, it is actually a normal, PREDICTABLE, human reaction to scenarios such as ours. Mine made me feel like I was a stalker hounding for him to love me right at the end -- what I really wanted was an explanation and the closure that he repeatedly SAID I deserved. If someone you cared about pulls the rug out from under you like that, won't it be more disturbing if you DIDN'T feel at all hurt or distressed, or wondered about it, or tried to search for answers? As it would either mean that you didn't care about this person at all, or that you are utterly devoid of human feeling.

I won't lie, this is easier for me to believe on some days than others, but it makes sense on many levels, so I hope it's true.

[Blimblam]

Redvelvet,

I can relate to the questioning of reality.  It a lot of the symptoms you suffer I also experienced.  I became stuck for a while fixated on, "if she loved me then," type thinking and that road is not really a healthy one in my opinion, it gets too existential.   What I personally think is a better route is to educate oneself about attachment and how early attachements create patterns in ones life.  At first the focus on the personality disorder aspect was useful for the fact I had doubted my self so much I was in a state of depersonalization/derealization.  I litterally could barely recognize myself in the mirror.  Eventually though focusing on the mere fact my ex has a personality disorder became limiting and allowed me to scapegoat her rather examine the patterns which is painfull. 

From what I am reading though it seems like this is te type of event that will potentially change your life for the better even though it may not seem like that right now.

[redvelvetc]

My ex used to drive me to utter frustration when I would remind him of loving things he said or did that totally contradicted his behaviour -- in response, he would either go quiet or sadly wonder if he had really said it. He admits to having a horrible memory.

That sounds dissociative... .did he suffer from headaches by any chance?

No headaches that I can remember. . .but a host of other somatic issues including carpal tunnel (which he claims was caused by the old job he hated. . .and when he finally got up the nerve to switch jobs it became, "Maybe I will hate the new job because it might cause my hand to act up", acid reflux and breathing problems which supposedly affected his ability to sing and continue to make music. He is a hypochondriac and resentful about ageing (although he is only in his 30s). He would complain about these health problems constantly and when he did seek medical help, would never follow up on treatments and medication. It used to make me feel vaguely like a failure when I had to cajole or remind him to do these things because to me the solutions are incredibly straightforward. Why WOULDN'T you see a doctor if you're not feeling well? 

Might these present themselves as any link to dissociation that you can think of?

[Invictus01]

During a search on quiet BPD, I remember reading the exact same words in a post from years and years ago -- someone had dated a BPD girl for 7 months and became suicidal after the breakup. He had never been a remotely depressed or unstable -- like us, he'd always been cheerful and handled things relatively well. The shock of the breakup and feeling like you never knew this person, followed closely by the shock of realizing that your reaction to it is abnormal and you now feel like you might not even have known YOURSELF -- it overwhelmed me completely, and is the main reason why I've decided to take everyone's advice and speak to a therapist. My hair was falling out, I was turning to sleeping pills, and alienating my friends -- none of them seem to understand why I'm in this much pain and all they want for me is to get better. But the consensus I get from reading the forums is that as much as our own behaviour might seem deranged and clingy, it is actually a normal, PREDICTABLE, human reaction to scenarios such as ours.

THIS! This was me the first few weeks! Forget suicidal, I was actually contemplating ordering a hit on her. And I was SERIOUS about it. I felt like I was floating in some alternate universe. I was surprised that I didn't hit by a bus one day 'cause I was just floating somewhere outside of my body without paying attention to ANYTHING.