8.43 | Early signs of possible BPD traits in your children

[Kwamina]

Hi there

Doctors are often very reluctant to diagnose young children with BPD, partly because the brain is still developing. Having said that, I think looking back many parents of now adult children with BPD will probably be able to identify certain early indicators of possible BPD traits in their children. Regardless of whether it was 'officially' labeled as BPD or not. Blaise Aguirre, MD, examined the notion of not being able to diagnose adolescents with BPD and raises some very interesting points:

• The idea that we have to wait until 18 to diagnose a personality disorder [makes] little clinical sense and flies in the face of current evidence.



• In our clinical experience most adult patients with BPD recognize that their symptoms started in adolescence (or earlier).



• Personality evolves in children. Parents often recognize that their children can have very different personalities from each other.



• Psychiatry has been comfortable diagnosing most other DSM conditions in younger people.



• No other medical or psychiatric condition would wait to get until someone was 18 to get targeted treatment.

Some food for thought perhaps  Whether you agree with him or not, considering these points raised by Blaise Aguirre, MD, it might be interesting to ask yourself some questions about how and when the BPD traits started to develop in your own child:

1. What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation?

I would be very interested in hearing your stories and any experiences or insights you can share here. Thanks in advance!

[enlighten me]

Not my child but my exgf's daughter.

When I started seeing my ex her daughter was seven. I thought she was spoilt and at first thought it was her mum appeasing her for getting together with me. Over time i realised there was more to it. She was selfish. More so than i had ever encountered. If i bought cakes so that there was enough for us to have two each i would find she had helped herself and eaten four. When i ordered a large plate of chips for us all to share she would covrr yhem in ketchup and mayo not caring if anyone else didnt like it. These may seem like little things but when they are constant they add up.

She was also very sly. Everything she did she would look for a reaction. If she was doinh something nauhty she would have a little smile when she thought no one was looking. She would constantly wind her brother up when she thought no one was around then play victim if he retaliated. She would also encourage others to misbehave just to get them in trouble.

She has had a lot of problems at school. She has complained about being bullied but it turns out she is the one bullying but turning it around so she's the victim.

[trytrytry]

My DD28 was about 5 when she started saying she wanted to die.  Took her to HMO psychiatrist, but he said she was OK but had ambivalent feelings about her dad.  She was hospitalized twice in HS for cutting and suicidal thoughts.  Drs at hospital would not diagnose her because she was under age18, but (under her breath) Dr mentioned BPD.  She has a history of broken relationships, and short lived jobs and school career.

She was hospitalized again at about age 22, but of course the DR's would not talk to me.  She said they diagnosed her as bi-polar at that time. (Seems like half the people she knows are bi-polar).

Certainly a much more palatable diagnosis to her.  I have come to the conclusion that she has a painful and fragile psyche, and has a mish- mosh of coping behaviors including: emotional deregulation and immaturity, manipulation, anorexia, drug and alcohol abuse.

Through this site and Alanon, I have mostly come to understand about loving boundaries, self care, and listening with empathy. 

Best wishes on your journey

[canuck13]

Hello, first off I must say I am sorry that we are communicating via this website! But it does offer some solace to know that we are NOT alone in this battle... .My 21 year old D had a normal upbringing with soccer games in suburbia, siblings and a nice house.  However she started selfharming at about age 14, by 15 she then had an eating disorder on top of the daily cutting, by 16 she was into drugs (pills, cocaine, pot every day), by 17 she was extremely depressed and suicidal, by 18 she attempted suicide, by 19 she had several more suicide attempts, by 20 she almost died by bleeding out after trying to slit her wrists.  :)uring most of this time we had her in counselling, our other children in counselling, family doctors appts, psychologist appts. NO ONE could help her no matter what we did... it was heartbreaking to watch her unravelling before my eyes and to be helpless.

Fortunately when she was formed (Canadian word for "committed' ) into the Mental health ward at a nearby hospital.  THis AMAZING psychiatrist had her diagnosed within 48 hours... it was such a relief because she nearly died... .a few times... .and I couldnt bear to watch her so hurt and destroyed. Life is far from perfect for her, but she holds down a retail  job and and an apartment (with help from her parents) ... .I just wish I had never heard of BPD ... .it kinda sucks the life out of everyone around them!

[jellibeans]

1. What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

I noticed things when she was just an infant. She didn't sleep well and was not able to self soothe. She was also delayed in walking and talking. I started reading books about the spirited child looking for help. She had meltdowns and lied a great deal.

2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

Probably the illnesses and the avoidance of going to school. Then as she got older she freted many illnesses for attention until these worked up to suicidal attempts and self harm. Some or her fainting and illnesses had us going to the ER... .sometimes by ambulance.

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

We had her tested in Grade two due to her struggles in school. In grade 6 we found a therapist for her. Before high school we had her tested again. She is now at Menningers have more testing and we are hoping for a DX.

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits?

Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation? Only since finding this website and have someone finally bring up borderline were we able to educate ourselves and begin to change the way we interacted with one another. She has always been a difficult child and we have always struggled with how to communicate with her.

[Turkish]

1. What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

Age 1 for S5. I used to call him "Baby Rainman," until I realized it was in bad taste, especially since they have a cousin with autism. Staring off into space, organizing and stacking. Easily triggered. It was the Terrible 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s... .he just turned 5. It took him 3 hours to do a simple alphabet page this past weekend for his pre-Kindergarten class. I finally put him in a room by himself as his sister (D2) kept distracting him, he said. The teacher's commented on it, even though she indicated that he is smart. I'm sure the split between me and his mom didn't help much. He's always been easily bothered by textures, things out of order, visual things. D2 is nothing like this. She asserting her boundaries now, but I wouldn't even come close to calling it the Terrible 2s. She hardly ever cries. When she gets upset, she just stops. S5 cries, still, such that other children comment upon it. He also doesn't get some social cues. He's too friendly, if anything, and despite the fact that he's as big as a small 7 year old, both I and his mom have noticed some verbal bullying by older kids.

Regarding what jellibeans said about her daughter, my uBPDx said that she didn't talk until she was 5. She's also neurologically sensitive.


2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

I'm in wait and see mode, talking to his mom when appropriate. Talking about validation, because I've observed that she invalidates him sometimes, "stop crying!"

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

His pediatrician told us that if he was still having issues by first grade, that it would be time to evaluate him. My T said something similar the pediatrician knows nothing about my Ex, and probably still thinks that their mom and I are together.

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation?

Thanks to advice on the co-parenting board, I've been turned onto validation. More specifically, the book, The Power of Validation. Children need firm, consistent dicipline, but I've rethought the concept of time outs. D2 will put herself on time outs (she's funny), but with S recently turned 5, he screams and cries, it used to be for 20 mins, and I would mistakenly, I think, extend the time outs because I thought "I need to teach him a lesson." He wouldn't calm down. I thought, "this is like his mom... .he feels abandoned." So I've shortened them to 5 mins, then I go into the room, hug him and talk to him.

The other week, he was still trying to hit me as I was hugging him. I told him, "S5, I put you here because you hit me. I know you're upset, but hitting is unacceptable." Then he bit my shoulder. That set me off. I dropped him onto the bed and yelled, "you do NOT bite me!" I was so angry, I knew that I had to walk away. He cried harder. After 10 mins, the crying subsided. It was still daylight out, but waning, and I wanted to take the kids to the park. I went back into the room a after 10 mins. He had buried himself under the blanket, still sobbing a little bit. I sat down and asked him, "S5, do you know why I put you in your room?" No answer. I took the blanket off and took him into my arms. "S5, do you know why I put you into your room?" Light sobbing, "Y-yes, because I hit you." "Yes, S5. I understand that you are upset that I limited your tablet time, but you know it's unacceptable to hit people, and you know I expect the same of D2, even though she's a baby. I don't hit you, and I expect the same of you." I hugged him tighter. "Ok." I said,."ok then, go pee-pee, get your shoes on, then let's go to the park!" 5 mins later, he was right as rain, ad then later putting them to bed.

Of course, I have almost daily stories like this, or similar. Tonight, I made the kds BLTs for dinner. He asked me to cut his sandwich into 4 pieces. Me quarter fell apart. He got really upset. Maybe it wasn't validting, but I said, "you asked me to cut it into 4 pieces, this is what happens," and he was whining/crying. I put the pieces back together and said, "this is how you do it, no problem," and he stuffed the to crust into his mouth to defy me and whined in frustration. D2 doesn't care. She deconstructs her sandwiches anyway and eats them item by item. I tamped down my annoyance and showed him (again) how to press the pieces together. He seemed to get that. The other night, he was triggered by a single piece of rice that was in his noodles. *sigh* I'm trying to not channel my mother who would force me to sit in a chair for hours with me not touching a plate of spaghetti until I literally did a face plant into it when I fell asleep.

In summary, S5 has his mother's neurobiological triggers. He's at risk with a mother who has BPD traits, and I can't count myself out of the equation with my BPD mom, but I'm trying to learn the best that I can.

[Kwamina]

Thank you all for your responses! I really appreciate it.

From all your stories it becomes clear that the BPD traits started to become evident way before the age of 18. Since the behaviors you describe are often quite serious like self-harm and suicidal ideation and sometimes unfortunately actual suicide attempts, it does seem wise to get them targeted treatment even if they can't be officially diagnosed with BPD yet. Again quoting Blaise Aguirre, MD here:

"No other medical or psychiatric condition would wait to get until someone was 18 to get targeted treatment."

Do you think it would have helped if you had known about BPD right from the very start and your child had gotten targeted treatment? Do you feel like there is anything you might have done differently then if you had known about BPD?

Another thing I find interesting about the work of Blaise Aguirre is that he is reluctant to use the word manipulation to describe the behavior of people with BPD:

"The effect of feeling manipulated, doesn't mean that the intention was to manipulate."

Though he concedes that actual manipulation does indeed occur, he argues that a lot of the time you're probably dealing with repeated and learned behavior. Basically that if people do the same thing over and over again and notice that they get the same results, they keep on repeating that behavior because they've learned that it leads to certain outcomes. What do you think of this whole idea of manipulation vs. repeated and learned behavior?

“Another thing is this, and Marsha Linehan has talked about it, if they're so good at manipulation, then why do they end up in hospital all the time? Why do they end up in treatment all the time? Well, very good, if they are manipulators, they are terrible manipulators.”

Another thing he talks about is that the symptoms of adolescents with BPD traits tend to be based more on skill deficits rather than intentional "acting out". He suggests that it's not so much that they are intentionally misbehaving but more that they lack certain skills that would allow them to behave differently. Has this also been your experience with your child that you find it's more a lack of skills than actual intentional acting out?

[lever.]

I noticed some things from very early (about 3 years)

Very extreme tantrums including scratching her own face very badly.

Difficulty coping with change.

Peer relationship problems.

Then from about 8 or 9-fantasy and lies.

Generally all connected to problems regulating emotion and self soothing when upset.

Also very poor sleep.

Sought help -at that stage it was seen as a behaviour management problem and I had parenting advice which was partially helpful but not always (time out made things worse).

[Kwamina]

These may seem like little things but when they are constant they add up.

My situation is different in the sense that it's my uBPD mom and sis but I can relate to what you say here. It's often all those little things together that can be very frustrating. Especially when you're dealing with them day in and day out all day long. How did you deal with these 'little' things?

My DD28 was about 5 when she started saying she wanted to die.

5 years is very young. I can imagine how unpleasant and shocking it must have been for you to hear her say this. What did you say to your daughter when she made these kinds of comments when she was still so little? Were you able to get through to her?

However she started selfharming at about age 14, by 15 she then had an eating disorder on top of the daily cutting, by 16 she was into drugs (pills, cocaine, pot every day), by 17 she was extremely depressed and suicidal, by 18 she attempted suicide, by 19 she had several more suicide attempts, by 20 she almost died by bleeding out after trying to slit her wrists.  :)uring most of this time we had her in counselling, our other children in counselling, family doctors appts, psychologist appts. NO ONE could help her no matter what we did... it was heartbreaking to watch her unravelling before my eyes and to be helpless.

Fortunately when she was formed (Canadian word for "committed' ) into the Mental health ward at a nearby hospital.  THis AMAZING psychiatrist had her diagnosed within 48 hours... it was such a relief because she nearly died... .a few times... .and I couldnt bear to watch her so hurt and destroyed. Life is far from perfect for her, but she holds down a retail  job and and an apartment (with help from her parents)

I am very sorry that you've had these difficult experiences with your daughter. Dealing with a child with suicidal tendencies is something no parent would want to go through. Your story also has some very hopeful elements though. Sounds like she's really doing a lot better now with the help of you two You say life is far from perfect for her, that's often the reality with BPD but at least she is doing better now. What would you say are the biggest issues she's still facing now?

We had her tested in Grade two due to her struggles in school. In grade 6 we found a therapist for her. Before high school we had her tested again. She is now at Menningers have more testing and we are hoping for a DX.

I saw your recent thread. Your daughter has been diagnosed with several things now. How does this make you feel? You were surprised that they didn't give her the diagnosis of 'emerging BPD' but they did say she was at risk for developing it if left untreated. How is your daughter doing now?

The other week, he was still trying to hit me as I was hugging him. I told him, "S5, I put you here because you hit me. I know you're upset, but hitting is unacceptable."

Is hitting you something he has done before? Does he behave like this often where he tries to hit you?

In summary, S5 has his mother's neurobiological triggers. He's at risk with a mother who has BPD traits, and I can't count myself out of the equation with my BPD mom, but I'm trying to learn the best that I can.

You raise a very important point here. When there are BPD family-members around the risk of a child also developing BPD does indeed seem to be greater, research also indicates that. My own mother is uBPD, so is her brother (my uncle) and my oldest sister too. And guess what, the three of them really look alike. Not only their behavior but also their physical appearance.

I noticed some things from very early (about 3 years)

Very extreme tantrums including scratching her own face very badly.

This is very worrying behavior. How did you deal with this? Were you able to get her to stop doing this?

time out made things worse

Interesting lever that both you and Turkish mention how time outs don't always seem to be helpful. Just shows that children with possible BPD traits need a targeted approach confirming the words of Blaisse Aguirre, MD:

"No other medical or psychiatric condition would wait to get until someone was 18 to get targeted treatment."

Thanks again everyone for all your responses Very insightful Good luck going forward as you try to deal with your children. It can definitely be challenging but the stories I read here also contain hopeful messages and lessons that you might also be able to incorporate into your own lives.

[Kate4queen]

1. What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

I think it was when he was 3 and he would cry every single time he went to the special needs nursery and then at 4 when he started nursery school he cried every single day for a whole year when I dropped him off. I thought that was odd. I really think because I carried him everywhere for the first 3 years of his life (He has mild cerebral palsy that when I put him down and he was expected to learn to walk a bit by himself he felt abandoned. I really think that's when his fear of abandonment really started.

2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

The lying about everything=again from about age 4 to get attention. And at 10 threatening me that he'd tell the counselor at school that I'd pushed him down the stairs because he didn't want to do his homework. Also how when he had surgery he was incapable of understanding that there was another child in his room having major heart surgery who also needed some peace and quiet. My son was adamant that he at age 9 was the only one suffering.

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

Because of his cerebral palsy my son was involved with therapy and counselors and a massive support system from the age of 2. Unfortunately, they were all so busy dealing with his cp that no one wanted to hear about the other behaviors that were concerning to us as a family. In fact he successfully managed to make us out to be the problem for years.

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation?

I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that. His BPD issues were largely ignored because he was able to function very well with his team of therapists and teaching staff and convince them that we were the problem.

[Kwamina]

Thanks for your response Kate4queen

I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that. His BPD issues were largely ignored because he was able to function very well with his team of therapists and teaching staff and convince them that we were the problem.

I gather from your other posts that your son is in his twenties now. His situation is complex with the cerebral palsy too. Do you feel like now that he's an adult his BPD issues are being addressed better by his therapists? What kind of help is he getting now?

The lying about everything=again from about age 4 to get attention. And at 10 threatening me that he'd tell the counselor at school that I'd pushed him down the stairs because he didn't want to do his homework. Also how when he had surgery he was incapable of understanding that there was another child in his room having major heart surgery who also needed some peace and quiet. My son was adamant that he at age 9 was the only one suffering.

What you describe here is definitely very concerning behavior and difficult to deal with as a parent. This also makes me think of what Blaise Aguirre, MD said about manipulation and attention seeking. He talks about how the symptoms of (young) people with BPD traits tend to be based more on skill deficits rather than intentional "acting out". He suggests that it's not so much that they are intentionally misbehaving but more that they lack certain skills that would allow them to behave differently. When you consider your son's behavior, the lying from age 4 and the threats at age 10, would you say that he was intentionally acting out and/or seeking attention? Or could a part of the problem also be that (as a result of the BPD) he lacked certain skills? I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.

[Shell Shocked]

I am new here and my daughter is not diagnosed but I strongly suspect BPD and possibly NPD.   Anyway, in hindsight there have been some red flags since she was quite young.  In Kindergarten her teacher contacted me because my daughter had said that another girl was being "mean" to her.  The girl wouldn't play with my daughter and she was hurt and felt that the girl was mean and didn't like her.  In reality, they had been paired together as reading partners and my daughter said "I will do the reading because I am good at reading and you are not."  She couldn't understand the connection between her unkind words and the girls reaction to them.  We have always noticed a pattern of friendships with her.  She has never had a friend for more than a year.  She never did well in groups of children - she was always focused on one "best" friend.  She would become upset if that friend wanted to spend time or made other friends.  She always held friends up to impossibly standards and when they would fail, she would cut them off and never speak to them again, blaming them for "being mean" to her.  

We didn't really notice the abandonment issue until a few years ago.  I explained this to myself as the fact that her biological father was never a part of her life.  My husband and I married when she was 5 and he adopted her legally.  We went to an outdoor living history museum a couple years ago. We were near the end of the museum and my younger children were playing in a playground type area.  My 16 year old (then 14) said she had to go to the bathroom and would be right back.  She was gone maybe 15-20 minutes or so and my husband got a call on his cell phone from a number he didn't recognize.  It was our daughter, hysterical, because I guess the museum had closed and they wouldn't let her back in.  Nobody had come through and told us it was closing and we didn't hear any announcement or anything.  We told her we would be right out.  We made our way out of the museum and found her.  She was inconsolable and angry and yelling how we "left her."  It was around 5:00 and still light outside.  She was in a gift shop with other people.  We hadn't moved from our spot at all.  We were right where she left us.  Had she looked, she would have seen that our car was still right in the lot.  She was furious with us.  She still talks about it, years later.  She "hates" that museum because that is where we left her and she will never go back.  Another incident that happened was when she went skating with some friends.  They were supposed to bring her there and then back home.  I got another hysterical call from her.  They were leaving her.  They had asked another family (who we also knew well) to bring her home because they wanted to stop someplace on the way home.  I was a little upset about it and thought it to be a poor choice, since they were responsible for bringing her and picking her up.  The other woman brought her home and she was fine and safe but not over being "left."  She blamed her friend (who really had no control over her parent's actions) and has never been friends with her since.  Another 1 year best friend.  The poor girl tried so hard to reach out to my daughter, coming to our house, crying, apologizing, etc... . my daughter ruthlessly cut her off and wanted nothing more to do with her.  She also cannot manage if someone is late or changes plans.  If I am even 5 minutes late picking her up from somewhere she will call me continuously asking where I am.  I was running 10 min late the other day picking her up due to weather and traffic and I let her know that the first time she called.  She called me 9 times in 5 minutes asking where I was.

Her manic/sleepless issues started when she was about 12.  Her complete opposition to everything and refusal to do anything to help around the house began about 6 months ago.  She has always been unkind to her siblings but it has been escalating.  While I feel sometimes like I just woke up and found myself living in a war zone, in hindsight I am able to see that some of these things have always been there.  I have been talking about "walking on egg shells" for years.  

[Kwamina]

Hi Shell Shocked ,

Thanks for sharing your story here and welcome to BPDFAmily

We cannot diagnose people here but the abandonment issues you noticed could indeed be indicative of BPD. Many people with BPD have a strong fear of abandonment.

I also see some signs of what could be classified as 'splitting' behavior in which your daughter at one point totally idealizes a 'friend' but then after a perceived slight totally demonizes that same 'friend'. Are you familiar with the term splitting? You can read more about it here: BPD BEHAVIORS: Splitting

Her manic/sleepless issues started when she was about 12.  Her complete opposition to everything and refusal to do anything to help around the house began about 6 months ago.  She has always been unkind to her siblings but it has been escalating.  While I feel sometimes like I just woke up and found myself living in a war zone, in hindsight I am able to see that some of these things have always been there.  I have been talking about "walking on egg shells" for years.  

Did something perhaps happen 6 months ago that might have triggered this behavior of your daughter? Perhaps a perceived slight or a triggering of her fear of abandonment?

I gather from your other posts that you're seeking help for your daughter and she's getting tested. Before this, how did you deal with her behavior when she was younger? You say you've been talking about "walking on egg shells" for years now. Were there perhaps certain strategies or approaches you used with your daughter that you found to be more effective than others?

[livednlearned]

1. What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

I used to say that my son had "big feelings" to describe his responses to things. As early as I can remember, maybe a year old. He seems to be more of an "acting in" personality so he was not aggressive and chaotic like my uBPD brother was.

2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

I saw these episodes -- almost like fits -- that started young, but realized when he was 8 that there was something different going on. He was extremely somatic, always had headaches and stomachaches, and perceived slights in even the most innocuous situations. But the most concerning was when he started talking about not wanting to live. He was 9 when that started.  :'(  

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

I sought help for him right before his 9th birthday. He went through a personality assessment at the suggestion of my therapist. Then he had a psycho-educational assessment. He was diagnosed with ADHD/ADD combined type, anxiety adjustment disorder, ODD, and depression.

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation?

I don't know if my child is BPD, I'm still on the fence about this. But nervous. He is currently seeing a psychiatrist who is treating him with metacognitive therapy. His diagnosis is depression. The psychiatrist characterizes the depression as currently moderate, although acknowledges he was probably severe when I made the appointment. He also doesn't want to start with medication, which I'm in agreement with.

I do think my son self-medicates with the Internet, and that he would be in worse shape in some ways if he didn't have that to distract himself. The one thing that makes me feel he might not be BPD is that he went through puberty very early. So it's not like those hormones haven't shown up yet. I also think that he's had enough therapy, and I learned some important skills early, to help him stay inside the safety zone.

[Kwamina]

Hi livednlearned

Thanks for answering my questions

But the most concerning was when he started talking about not wanting to live. He was 9 when that started.  :'(  

... .

I sought help for him right before his 9th birthday. He went through a personality assessment at the suggestion of my therapist. Then he had a psycho-educational assessment. He was diagnosed with ADHD/ADD combined type, anxiety adjustment disorder, ODD, and depression.

Very concerning and sad indeed. I can imagine how shocked you would have been as a mother hearing your young child say that. Did anything happen right before the time he started saying these things? Did your son give a reason for why he said these things?

I do think my son self-medicates with the Internet, and that he would be in worse shape in some ways if he didn't have that to distract himself. The one thing that makes me feel he might not be BPD is that he went through puberty very early. So it's not like those hormones haven't shown up yet. I also think that he's had enough therapy, and I learned some important skills early, to help him stay inside the safety zone.

When you say he self-medicates with the internet, do you mean he just surfs around and plays games and that distracts him? Or are you talking about some (targeted) self-help he gets via the internet to better deal with his issues?

I also think that he's had enough therapy, and I learned some important skills early, to help him stay inside the safety zone.

Great that you were able to learn some helpful skills early on! That can really make a difference. Could you perhaps elaborate on the skills you're referring to here and how they helped you and your son stay in the safety zone?

[DyingLove]

Currently I'm on my way out the door. Another couple weeks the X significant other definitely suffers with BPD. But now about this child thing.

Before making my move back in 2011 to be with the significant other, at a distance I was able to observe things. First off the mother would allow the child who was only five years old at the time, to quite often sleep in bed with her. I know all around that that is not a good habit especially when the child had her own room bed etc. Well I knew if I was coming to live with her or actually going to live with her that certain habits were going to have to be changed. So I suggested that she start being put in her room and be allowed to start sleeping on her own. The significant other and myself spoke every night whether it was on the telephone or via Skype. Nearly immediately the child rebuilt. Or revolted whichever seems to fit better. The mother went close the bedroom door and at first the child would just come barging it. Then she would be put back in her bed and repeat the process. Same thing kid would keep barging back in. At a certain point the mother realized it was getting to be a pain so she locked the door. The child would once again try to gain access to the bedroom and knock on the door scream kick make excuses, I have a son that I raised and never ever went through any of what I saw. I heard excuses come out of this kids mouth five years old one right after the other my bed hurts my back hurts my leg hurts I can't sleep I need somebody to keep me company and so forth and so on. The mother ignored her because at the time I looked online to see the best way of breaking the child from this type of behavior. At first you guide the child back to their room comfort them and let them be then when all else fails you ignore and supposedly the child gets the idea. This child did not get the idea screaming at the top of her lungs kicking the door and doing many of you violent and uncalled for things. This went on for at least a month. Now of course this child is the product of a broken home. I can't say much about the biological dad, or better yet I can't say anything good about the biological dad. When I went to my final destination to live there if the incident of the child knocking on the door and banging on the door got brought up, the mother blamed me for not allowing her time to spend with her child. One a bunch of bull crap! Nothing could have been further from the truth. First off if this mother got home between seven and 8 o'clock every night, and the child had to be picked up from daycare, how was I monopolizing anybody's time here?

Anyway, this child always always always needs to be the center of attention. She needs somebody to hold her hand and do everything for her because she is so helpless and lazy, today at nine years old she is selfish as ever, self-centered, disobedient, has troubles left and right in school, and like was mentioned above always says that somebody is bullying her and her friends don't like her and her friends talk about her and everything is done wrong to her. Kinda like the dock with a broken wing for me poor me for me. Well this child is better now since I've been in her life, that's not a brag it's the actual truth. The mother gives me no credit whatsoever and in fact she blames me for doing things so that she will look bad. Oh for God sakes it's such a mixed up crazy situation! I tried to be the best stand-in father that I possibly could, I raise the sun from a past marriage he's 39 years old and doing very well. I will admit I never raise the little girl and they have a different type of manipulation that they pull on you. But to make a long story short, this child has problems. Her emotions are like a roller coaster she goes from happy to sad to in different, and somewhere in everything she does she needs everyone's attention approval and monopolizes everyone's time. Now that the mother pulled me out of the relationship, well I'm still under the same roof and I tried to do good for the child, the child is exhibiting very strange behavior, and I've told her on several times are ready that I don't even recognize or by the things that she does. The mother also now is trying to act like a mother, so she's really accentuating everything she does even to the point of talking loud to sound like she's being a mother. I don't know if this information will be of help to anyone, at least I got to speak my piece. It's a shame that such a young child is so attached with behavioral problems. As far as school goes there practically isn't one day that passes by right now where she doesn't get written up for something in class, and she's only in the third grade and she's not doing great. In about three weeks I will be out of here I will pray for this child she will need it.

[Kate4queen]

Thanks for your response Kate4queen

I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that. His BPD issues were largely ignored because he was able to function very well with his team of therapists and teaching staff and convince them that we were the problem.

I gather from your other posts that your son is in his twenties now. His situation is complex with the cerebral palsy too. Do you feel like now that he's an adult his BPD issues are being addressed better by his therapists? What kind of help is he getting now?

He doesn't get any help as far as I am aware. He refused to give me his SS# when I was sourcing new health insurance because "he knew I would use it against him" and he genuinely believes we are the problem and that we are 'mad' and need help.

The lying about everything=again from about age 4 to get attention. And at 10 threatening me that he'd tell the counselor at school that I'd pushed him down the stairs because he didn't want to do his homework. Also how when he had surgery he was incapable of understanding that there was another child in his room having major heart surgery who also needed some peace and quiet. My son was adamant that he at age 9 was the only one suffering.

What you describe here is definitely very concerning behavior and difficult to deal with as a parent. This also makes me think of what Blaise Aguirre, MD said about manipulation and attention seeking. He talks about how the symptoms of (young) people with BPD traits tend to be based more on skill deficits rather than intentional "acting out". He suggests that it's not so much that they are intentionally misbehaving but more that they lack certain skills that would allow them to behave differently. When you consider your son's behavior, the lying from age 4 and the threats at age 10, would you say that he was intentionally acting out and/or seeking attention? Or could a part of the problem also be that (as a result of the BPD) he lacked certain skills? I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.

I don't think he was 'acting out' at all I don't think he had any awareness of anyone else's feelings from an early age and wanted all the attention 100% firmly on him. He seemed to lack empathy from a very early age. He also very firmly believed that he should be at the center of everyone else's universe. I didn't see it as manipulative. I just saw it as him seeing it as the way it was and should be. It comes back to that fear of abandonment and for him, not being mobile as well as a child I think he learned to play the mind games to keep people around him and invested in him.

[Kwamina]

Hi again Kate4queen

Thanks for answering my question.

I didn't see it as manipulative. I just saw it as him seeing it as the way it was and should be. It comes back to that fear of abandonment and for him, not being mobile as well as a child I think he learned to play the mind games to keep people around him and invested in him.

I think you raise a very important point here about learned behaviors. Blaise Aguirre, MD also talks about learned behaviors:

Another thing I find interesting about the work of Blaise Aguirre is that he is reluctant to use the word manipulation to describe the behavior of people with BPD:

"The effect of feeling manipulated, doesn't mean that the intention was to manipulate."

Though he concedes that actual manipulation does indeed occur, he argues that a lot of the time you're probably dealing with repeated and learned behavior. Basically that if people do the same thing over and over again and notice that they get the same results, they keep on repeating that behavior because they've learned that it leads to certain outcomes.

@DyingLove

Thank you too for your reply. You are leaving this relationship but do you know if the child has ever gotten any targeted treatment for her issues?

This went on for at least a month.

What happened after this month? Did she just stop knocking/banging on the door or were you and/or her mother able to get through to her?

[livednlearned]

But the most concerning was when he started talking about not wanting to live. He was 9 when that started.  :'(  

... .

I sought help for him right before his 9th birthday. He went through a personality assessment at the suggestion of my therapist. Then he had a psycho-educational assessment. He was diagnosed with ADHD/ADD combined type, anxiety adjustment disorder, ODD, and depression.

Very concerning and sad indeed. I can imagine how shocked you would have been as a mother hearing your young child say that. Did anything happen right before the time he started saying these things? Did your son give a reason for why he said these things?

No specific event that I can think of, although I'm divorced and that's a traumatic event for a child -- not just the aftermath, but the conflict period leading up to the divorce. And having a mentally ill parent his whole life. Although I feel a lot of guilt for not validating S13 when he was younger. He would express his feelings, and I soothed him the wrong way -- good intentions, like telling him things were ok when they weren't, which invalidated him. He had such big feelings, and maybe I was concerned that being a boy, he would get hurt if he was that sensitive. I don't know for sure, but when I look back I think he had an avoidant attachment style. Maybe because I did too? Maybe because he was predisposed to need more validation? I don't know. Do avoidant attachment styles in little kids make them feel more susceptible to suicidal ideation?

When you say he self-medicates with the internet, do you mean he just surfs around and plays games and that distracts him? Or are you talking about some (targeted) self-help he gets via the internet to better deal with his issues?

He self-medicates the unhealthy way.   He has even said that when he feels bad, he knows he can get on the Internet and he'll stop feeling.

I also think that he's had enough therapy, and I learned some important skills early, to help him stay inside the safety zone.

Great that you were able to learn some helpful skills early on! That can really make a difference. Could you perhaps elaborate on the skills you're referring to here and how they helped you and your son stay in the safety zone?

Validation really turned things around -- it started to work immediately. We had some traumatic events in the last several years. His dad had a scary psychotic episode when S13 was there during visitation. I'm ashamed to admit that in the past, I would excuse his dad's behavior and say he had a difficult childhood, etc. But I've learned to stop doing that, and to focus on bearing witness to S13's feelings.

I'm also learning how to have boundaries with S13. I was in constant rescue mode with S13, always trying to smooth over his feelings, especially the painful ones. I needed better boundaries so that S13 could feel those negative feelings. I realized that having good boundaries meant S13 resented me less, even though there have been times he gets angry about the boundaries, especially when I change up the old way. 

Right now, S13 is doing metacognitive therapy with a psychiatrist who I think is excellent. They connected in a way that S13 didn't with his first therapist, who was good, but she wasn't able to really get as much out of him. I heard that metacognitive therapy is considered the "third wave" of therapy (first was Freudian, then cognitive-based, now this) because there is a focus on mindfulness, which makes me think DBT would fall under that. So the psychiatrist is helping S13 think about the way he thinks. It's too early to tell, but I am seeing early signs that it's helping. S13 is still depressed, but he is also functioning, and seems like he can identify when his thinking is distorted, even if it still makes him feel bad, if that makes sense.

He is also in a social skills class with three other boys his age. Two are ADHD, and two as high-functioning autistic. S13 didn't get much in the way with bonding from his dad, and I felt like he needed some male role modeling, so he goes to that class once a week for an hour. It's hard to tell what he's getting from it, but he likes going.

Honestly, the biggest thing, other than validation, is recognizing that he is right where he is, no more no less. For a kid who has so many talents and such a creative, intelligent mind, he isn't where he could be. But he's much better than he was five years ago, and I believe he's going to be wiser and more self-aware than the average 20 year old because he'll have language to describe his own feelings and mind. That's more than I had at that age. 

[DyingLove]

@DyingLove

Thank you too for your reply. You are leaving this relationship but do you know if the child has ever gotten any targeted treatment for her issues?

This went on for at least a month.

What happened after this month? Did she just stop knocking/banging on the door or were you and/or her mother able to get through to her?[/quote]
Hi Kwamina, First off, she eventually caught on to the fact that she needed to sleep in her own room and her own bed.  I'd say most of the grief went away in that month or so. After that, she was still a naggy child.  The tantrums that child put on were incredibly disturbing.  I wasn't in the household yet either.  I would skype and talk to the mom on the phone also.  When we skyped, I could see the moms reaction to the whole mess.  She blamed me for NOT being able to spend time with her kid... .because she was talking to me.  That was an outright lie, but there is no talking sense into her. The kid was 5yo then. She is 9yo now.  She is still bratty, and has to be the center of attention in everything that goes on. Some normal kid stuff, but some is not.  The mother, at this point of me separating from the family, acts peculiar towards the child, she acts the same way you would imagine someone talking to a deaf person on television.  Loud and almost abnoxiously annoying. This past weekend they left on Friday evening to go stay with the SO's mother.  They came home yesterday with toys and clothes and all kinds of stuff that "because of me" they can't or don't do.  I compare it to the biological father being a "disney dad". Sure the kid is enjoying whatever she is given in the way of additional gifts and clothing etc.  But the mother is NOT instilling any good values or skills for growing up.  Of course the mothers patience wears thin at times too... .but, as I was recommended to do, I no longer but in. Unless of course the child is so unreasonable or does annoying things directly to me out of rudeness (not uncommon)

Well the mother is definitely BPD... .and after doing some research on codependency, I'd say she's got a heaping spoonful of that too.  We discovered from the kids bio father that he had ADHD growing up (he's far from a nice person).  So she has loads of issues.  I should be out of here by months end.  I'm sad to say and not proud of it either, but... .it's their problems now.  I did many good things for this family and especially the child.  But now I'm getting the 2x4 up the butt treatment.  How quickly people forget the good that one has done.

Just as an example:  This family was based upon eating fast food, rushing around to no end for silly little things... .one night I was on the phone with her and she spent about 4 hours driving around florida to find a $3 fabric marker for her older daughter (not living at home anymore). Dinner consisted of everyone taking a plate in front of the tv with very little in the way of family behaviour.  The little one was crude and rude and had practically no manners.  Gee how far we've come.

Today we sit at the table and eat dinner like a family (even though I've got one foot out the door), and the child has SOME boundaries... .still lazy and helpless though because the mother lets her be.  And it goes on.  The kid screams for attention most of the time and has to have approval as well as be the spotlight of attention... .and frankly that makes me nuts.  There's more, but I'm sure anyone can get the gist of it.  :-)

[OffRoad]

I notice that BPD traits vary considerably. I suspect my S16 is uBPD due to the following:

He could not self calm as a baby.

As a toddler, he never got upset. EVER. From ages 2 through 4.

As he made his way through elementary school, the more stressed he got, the more he put on his "happy" mask while at school.

Also, the more stressed he got, the less he was able to accomplish. It's like his brain would freeze.

At home, he would cry at the drop of a bucket if something went wrong.

Anything he did wrong meant HE was wrong. He would hide anything he did wrong, including unfinished school papers.

He is extremely intelligent, but had the added extras of dyslexia and dysgraphia, neither of which it appears teachers and schools understand how to help.

When the hormones started kicking in, he could not handle his emotions. He went back to always being happy, because that emotion was "safe". Any anger would be completely out of proportion to what happened.

Dysregulates at the beginning of each school year. One year scared the teacher because S16 said "What's the point of living?"

Has no motivation to complete anything. Feels like if he can't do it perfectly, there is no point in doing it at all.

Withdraws into video games because he can do well at them.

Feels like if he doesn't do well, no one will love him.

Takes him a very long time to do anything. He overthinks everything, and questions his own abilities.

Does not manage change well. As a child, I had to give him warnings when things were going to change or there would be a meltdown. It still helps him even though his is 16, as switching gears does not come easily.

Has problems making friends. Most people are too judgmental (they actually kind of are, especially in high school) and S16 doesn't like that. He has a lot of acquaintances, though. People like him, he just doesn't realize it.

Gets totally overwhelmed when his emotions kick in. Withdraws to avoid being angry.

[Kwamina]

Hi Offroad

Thanks for sharing your experiences with your son. When I read about his thinking patterns, it seems like one of the problems he's dealing with might be so-called warped or twisted thinking. Are you perhaps familiar with the ten forms of warped thinking identified by David D. Burns, M.D.? I've listed them below:

• All or none thinking: Everything is perceived to be either full on or full off. If something isn't fully completed/ or right/ or perfect/ then it's entirely uncompleted/wrong/spoiled.



• Overgeneralisation: One example of a mistake or error is interpreted as a pattern of mistakes, and errors.



• Mental filter: One (negative) part of the picture is examined to the exclusion of the larger (positive) part.



• Disqualifying the positive: Dismissing or ignoring any positive comment/achievement/compliment.



• Jumping to conclusions: You think negatively about something without supporting evidence. There are two errors:
  
  o   Mind reading: You think without any evidence that someone is thinking negatively about you.
  
  o   The fortune teller error: You truly believe that you know what will happen in the future, without evidence.



• Magnification or minimization: This is making small things much larger than they deserve, and making other things much smaller than they are in reality.



• Emotional reasoning: Thinking that emotional states legitimately reflect reality.



• Should statements: Thinking in terms of should, must, ought imposes a view about the way the world is which may not tie in with reality, and which induces emotional unhappiness, resentment and guilt.



• Labelling and mislabeling: This involves describing actions or events in an over-the-top, emotionally coloured way. Name calling.



• Personalisation: This involves attributing blame to self for an event where the responsibility is not fully yours, only partly yours or not yours at all.

When you look at your son do you feel like some of these thinking patterns might apply to him?

[OffRoad]

Yes, many of these reflect him, and his father, so I am not surprised.

S shows these:    

• All or none thinking: Everything is perceived to be either full on or full off. If something isn't fully completed/ or right/ or perfect/ then it's entirely uncompleted/wrong/spoiled



• Overgeneralisation: One example of a mistake or error is interpreted as a pattern of mistakes, and errors.



• Mental filter: One (negative) part of the picture is examined to the exclusion of the larger (positive) part.
• Emotional reasoning: Thinking that emotional states legitimately reflect reality.
• Labelling and mislabeling: This involves describing actions or events in an over-the-top, emotionally coloured way. Name calling.
• Personalisation: This involves attributing blame to self for an event where the responsibility is not fully yours, only partly yours or not yours at all.

His father also has:

   Magnification or minimization: This is making small things much larger than they deserve, and making other things much smaller than they are in reality.

Neither of them really have the "should's statements" or true Disqualifying the positive. They might minimize the positive sometimes.

[Kwamina]

Yes, many of these reflect him, and his father, so I am not surprised.

S shows these:    

• All or none thinking: Everything is perceived to be either full on or full off. If something isn't fully completed/ or right/ or perfect/ then it's entirely uncompleted/wrong/spoiled



• Overgeneralisation: One example of a mistake or error is interpreted as a pattern of mistakes, and errors.



• Mental filter: One (negative) part of the picture is examined to the exclusion of the larger (positive) part.
• Emotional reasoning: Thinking that emotional states legitimately reflect reality.
• Labelling and mislabeling: This involves describing actions or events in an over-the-top, emotionally coloured way. Name calling.
• Personalisation: This involves attributing blame to self for an event where the responsibility is not fully yours, only partly yours or not yours at all.

His father also has:

   Magnification or minimization: This is making small things much larger than they deserve, and making other things much smaller than they are in reality.

Neither of them really have the "should's statements" or true Disqualifying the positive. They might minimize the positive sometimes.

Has your son ever tried cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) to help him counteract his negative/distorted thinking patterns? CBT has been proven to be very effective for many people struggling with these forms of automatic negative thoughts caused by distorted thinking patterns.

[OffRoad]

Has your son ever tried cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) to help him counteract his negative/distorted thinking patterns? CBT has been proven to be very effective for many people struggling with these forms of automatic negative thoughts caused by distorted thinking patterns.

Not yet. I only recently found this site (trying to figure out my H) and I realized when reading here that some of the therapies people have mentioned would be helpful to S16 as well. I have found some CBT worksheets online and it looks like the right kind of help S (and H) needs.

[Kwamina]

Not yet. I only recently found this site (trying to figure out my H) and I realized when reading here that some of the therapies people have mentioned would be helpful to S16 as well. I have found some CBT worksheets online and it looks like the right kind of help S (and H) needs.

We also have some resources on this site about CBT that you might find interesting. There is a free online CBT program called MoodGym:

MoodGym was developed by the Australian National University. It is available free to the general public... .specifically to help people with limited access to mental health professionals.

…... .

This is a sophisticated program that will take 1-2 weeks (multiple sessions online with offline exercises) to complete.

You can read more about MoodGym here:

MoodGym: Free On-Line Cognitive Therapy Program

[Heart Broken]

What age was your child when you started noticing behaviors that you would classify as difficult or concerning?

       Our baby daughter never stopped crying and never slept.  She did not ever self-soothe, nor could I soothe her.  I kept her on my bed at night in her carrier.  My husband moved out of our bedroom so he could sleep.  I was desperate for help.

2. What were the difficult or concerning behaviors that you first started noticing? How did these behaviors develop after that time?

        Toddler---- very strong willed... .also shy   Our daughter is now 40 years old, and it is difficult to remember with precision ages and behavior but generally her early elementary years were only difficult with shyness and was often teased by other children. I blamed myself for having her start school at 41/2 yrs. old.  She was the youngest in her class but the school tested her and said she was ready and capable to start kindergarten when she did.  I regretted that decision throughout her school years and blamed her issues on that.

        She went through what I called a rebellious stage from 5th grade through Junior High ages 91/2- 13 and our relationship was strained.    I would describe her as difficult.  (  Again, I had full responsibility of raising her, husband saw his responsibility as being the bread winner and going to work every day.

3. Did you seek out help for your child when he/she was still under the age of 18? If so, what kind of help did you seek out? Did your young child get any diagnosis back then? If so, how was your child diagnosed and what kind of treatment did your child get?

       

4.What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation? 

            Combined answer #3 & #4

   

When she went to high school at 13 3/4 yrs. she developed her eating disorder and was anorexic.  At this time she became the perfect, good girl.   A good student, and active in her sports of soccer, swimming and tennis. We sought out professional counseling for she and us which was a complete 'nothingness'!  Later she became a closet bulimic.   From 14 yrs to today age 40 she has been in therapy with different psychologists and psychiatrists. NONE have given her a diagnosis as a frame of reference and of course with all the privacy laws now we know NOTHING with the exception she is telling her father and I to get therapy.

       

4. What strategies or treatments have you found to be helpful when dealing with a young child exhibiting BPD traits? Were there things you and/or your still underaged child were able to do yourself that improved the situation? 

 

            We developed a very close relationship for the years in College to one year ago when everything fell to pieces.  Her physical health has suffered serious consequences caused by impulsive behaviors.  She has had many concussions from sport activities and other means       ( biking, pool, skiing, trap door on her head etc) suffered neck issues resulting in two failed surgeries that have left her in chronic pain, lost her brother ( our son) by murder, a miscarriage and a failed marriage.  How's that for a very difficult life.  So with all this on her plate and ours, we did seek out professional help of which NONE was helpful.  In fact it was more harmful to hers and our well being.  The psychiatrist we sought out to help her, crossed all boundaries.  We did not live in the same state as he and our daughter did.  She saw him and person and he encouraged talking to my husband and I as a support for our daughter.  This situations turned out to be a nightmare.  He became very fond of our daughter, fell in love with her, crossing all professional boundaries and turned to me for his personal needs of wanting me to mother him.  UGH!

We have stood by our daughter through all of her life's challenges.  In the middle of her College years she had to be placed in an eating disorder clinic and miss her study abroad.  NONE of these experiences with the professionals gave a diagnosis nor mention of BPD. It is only my research that has led me to believe this is a possibility.

She has recently asked us for the second time in a year to have NO CONTACT with her and requested we get our own therapy.  We have an appointment tomorrow.  My heart is broken, having lost both my children, one murdered and one mentally (emotionally) ill.  I am sure I a mentally ill now.  I am isolated from friends as this is a private matter not to be shared with others out of respect for our daughter.  ( she would NEVER speak to us if we divulged this to our friends)  Our friends' children are married and they have grandchildren   We have neither and all we can do is ask questions of them and show our interest in their lives.  I am crushed, heartbroken, depressed with no will to do anything.   I am alone with this as my husband doesn't want to talk about it and has his work for an escape.  I am old (68yrs) and am running out of time.  I cry, and cry and cry.   Very Sad!  It is getting more and more difficult to show up with a smile. 

[Kwamina]

Hi Peachtree

Thanks for joining this discussion. You have been through a lot with your daughter and have also lost your son in such a tragic way. I am very sorry that you've had these very difficult experiences. I can imagine how losing her brother could have a huge impact on your daughter. Do you feel like you yourself have been able to mourn the tragic death of your son?

Thanks for sharing your story, also about the experiences you've had with therapists. It's very unfortunate that you've in the past encountered some troubled therapists that seemed to do more harm than good to your family.

You also mention that when your daughter was 13 she developed an eating disorder, was anorexic and later developed bulimia. You describe the professional counseling you sought out back then as a 'complete nothingness'. Could you elaborate on why you say this? Is it because none of them were able to properly diagnose her? Is the eating disorder a thing of the past now or is it something your daughter still struggles with?

She has recently asked us for the second time in a year to have NO CONTACT with her and requested we get our own therapy.  We have an appointment tomorrow.  My heart is broken, having lost both my children, one murdered and one mentally (emotionally) ill.  I am sure I a mentally ill now.  I am isolated from friends as this is a private matter not to be shared with others out of respect for our daughter.  ( she would NEVER speak to us if we divulged this to our friends)  Our friends' children are married and they have grandchildren   We have neither and all we can do is ask questions of them and show our interest in their lives.  I am crushed, heartbroken, depressed with no will to do anything.   I am alone with this as my husband doesn't want to talk about it and has his work for an escape.  I am old (68yrs) and am running out of time.  I cry, and cry and cry.   Very Sad!  It is getting more and more difficult to show up with a smile.  

In what ways do you feel you are mentally ill now? What kind of therapy are you getting? You say your husband doesn't want to talk about these issues, is he going to therapy with you?

I am glad you are reaching out for support here and I hope this will help you break that sense of isolation you are feeling. Take care

[Heart Broken]

Thank you Kwamina for reading and responding to my rather long message.  I will give some thought to your questions and respond later.  Today is my husband's and my appointment with a therapist.  I am going to have to do some serious self- talk and not have 'attitude' .  I am skeptical of walking out of that appointment with a good feeling.  Our years of seeking out the help of professionals has gotten us no where but perpetuating our suffering.  My nagging thought is how can this therapist help us when we don't know why we are in the room with her.  How can she help our family heal when we can't go to her with a diagnosis for our daughter's illness and our daughter not a part of our therapy?  BTW,  this psychiatrist was referred to us by our daughter's psychiatrist.  Hmmmm... .  really thinking they have conferred but of course we can't know that.  Probably should up date you on this either in a PM or another thread.  Sorry to go on and on here about this but it stemmed from replying to you.  Thank you again for saving me from walking through this fire alone.

[Turkish]

For the second time in a month, S5 has bitten another kid on the head at school. It doesn't work unless you go "Braaaiiinns!" Little Buddy

The first time, his excuse was [uBPD] Mommy was mad at him in the morning, so he was still angry. This time, his excuse was because he was hungry. Here, his mom seemed concerned about the school thinking she wasn't feeding her kids, but her anxiety about how they might view her is a different story.

He's been through two years of Sunday school, preschool, and pre-K. Other than day-dreaming, there has never been an incident.

From what we were told by the school, these "attacks" seem unprovoked. I did a field trip with his class last week, and I observed that all of the kids liked him, but his K class has a lot of kids who act out. The teacher said it was different than her last class, and riding the bus as a chaperon, I also noticed that the second kinder class on board was indeed a lot more subdued. The two other chaperons were all but worthless, IMO. I was the one who sat in the back of the bus and talked to the kids, but also told them to knock it off (when necessary) and stay in their seats, because the bus driver kept getting on the intercom and telling them to sit.

Given that as parents, the public school system will require us to do something, we both signed papers for him to see the school counselor. We'll see how it goes. Not sure what this means yet, if anything.