Right now what has me the most worked up is my mother.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hurthusband

You mention your wife is on Clozapine, Xanax and Vyvanse and that she is drinking alcohol. Your wife being in crisis and drinking alcohol in conjunction with her medication especially Vyvanse is something that will be impacting massively on her already fragile mental state.

My h was in crisis like your wife was a year ago and I too was in chaos. I emailed my h's P all relevant info about his mental state and associated behaviours. The P used this as 'third party information' to help my h who eventually spent time in hospital. You mention your wife's P not wanting anything to do with you, I was met with a similar response. I didn't care, nothing could have been worse than the situation I was in. I was also terrified my h would die if I did nothing.

It could help your wife and all of you if a professional is made aware of just how difficult things are. Is this something you could do?

[sweetheart]

Hurthusband

You mention your wife is on Clozapine, Xanax and Vyvanse and that she is drinking alcohol. Your wife being in crisis and drinking alcohol in conjunction with her medication especially Vyvanse is something that will be impacting massively on her already fragile mental state.

My h was in crisis like your wife was a year ago and I too was in chaos. I emailed my h's P all relevant info about his mental state and associated behaviours. The P used this as 'third party information' to help my h who eventually spent time in hospital. You mention your wife's P not wanting anything to do with you, I was met with a similar response. I didn't care, nothing could have been worse than the situation I was in. I was also terrified my h would die if I did nothing.

It could help your wife and all of you if a professional is made aware of just how difficult things are. Is this something you could do?

[momtara]

You mention your wife's P not wanting anything to do with you, I was met with a similar response. I didn't care, nothing could have been worse than the situation I was in. I was also terrified my h would die if I did nothing.

It could help your wife and all of you if a professional is made aware of just how difficult things are. Is this something you could do?

There's a good question. As scared as you are, not doing anything may just make things worse. Maybe she has to be hospitalized and kept there until she really gets the right help. Wouldn't that be a relief?

[hurthusband]

Outside of the cutting I have told her therapist all of these things. And her therapist won't even respond to me.  It's almost like the therapist wants my wife happy so she keeps coming back.  Last night my wife called for help for her sister with something mundane.  I did help with it made a call.  Both where Thankful.  Wife had earlier said she would not contact me and I should never contact her again.  It was weird then when she also asked me to stay with our son since she was going to be gone for a while so I did.  We were looking at movies when she got home so I asked her if I should go now which she said no.  I invited her to watch a movie with me but she just sat there on Internet before getting mad at sons mistake  and went to sleep.  She fell and I asked if she was ok.  I went to bed too after the movie with son.  She could not sleep and woke me up at 3 to argue asking me what I told my mother about rodeo tickets she had offered me to take son to since she heard I would be with him.  I had told her my son said thank you but the rodeo was not his thing because my wife didn't want him going to anytbing concerning my mother.  My wife said I lied about her son and I should have enforced a boundary telling my mother  that because she threatened my wife none of them would have anything to do with her.  I felt my mother was being kind and so I tried to be polite.  Was I wrong?

It started escalating from there. I went downstairs to another room and she followed.  She said I had to leave or she would call police.  I said I had a right to be there too.  She threatened more so I left for my car.  She continued to say I could never come back but I said I did have a right.  She said she didn't feel safe with me so I w as a danger.  I asked what I had done and pointed out she had been violent and threatened and I had not.  She went beer saying that would jeopardize her probation.  She held onto car so I couldn't pull away before subbing toe and ripping nail off.  I went to check and help her into bed before at 5 am by now going to sleep. Doorbell woke me up and it was a gift.  Apparantly she stayed up during movie buying me gifts for vday.  She stated that I said she only got me a book for holidays while I got bigger things and I didn't like her gifts.  What I had said was I always appreciated the gifts because yiu thought of me.  I would be happy with just a card and heartfelt note but what hurts is even though you don't think I do I spend hours getting you a gift and spending alot of money and it makes yiu hate me more.  She kind of threw the gift at me then said she didn't mean to but really wanted me to open it saying she doesn't know if I would like it but she really tried.  I knew it meant alot and I was terrified of the outcome of this might be.  I knew it was a timebomb.  I wanted her to know I cared so I opened the gift.  It was a roku 3.  I don't know alot about these to be honest.  We have a ps4 for kids so I thought it was similiar.  I also never get to watch tv.  I haven't watched a show of mine in weeks because we just watch what wife does plus im scared of cost or trying to match what she percieves as equal effort with cfee grandnin bills due this week but I did not say any of that.  I could tell she was proud of it and thst made me feel good.  I mentioned how it was cool and thanked her and was looking at it. She asked me if I knew what it was and I said what I thought but she claimed I knew more cause she did and got upset saying I was trying to hurt her.  She was hurting.  I didn't want to hurt her.  I started crying and she did and ran upstairs.  I went up after and then it started in how she tried hard and got me another gift which I did need.  She spent couple of hundred which was completely unnecessary and it was kind of course all I really wanted was a hug and to hold her which I don't get.  I think about it alot. I love my wife and I want her approval and her to recognize my love as love and not indifference and hate.  She was upset and brought up how I screwed up deal with mom and asked me to leave because I was getting hysterical.  I'm being told I don't care and I'm picking mother over her and I dont appreciate her and all these things I don't feel.  Things that in many ways feel like projections and I can't refute without invalidating but I can't accept cause they are not how I feel.  I can't tel her they are projections because they are horrible and she doesn't want to be that.  She asks me to leave and I stumble out writing this. She asked me to come home to discuss a course of action for next 6 months.  She said she will never argue in front of kids with another man again.  She won't bring up my mother... .

I tried to walk away last night.   I tried to stay away.  I don't want to hurt her but everything I do and say takes on a different meaning to her.  She is hurting.  I feel sick.  Of course I didn't take gift with Mr because if km like ing in truck I can't take it snd I certainly can't hook it up in parents house.  She going to say we are over.  I don't understand this.  This all started over my mother again but why does. My mother have to be brought up in evrrything...

I'm so confused.  Thick in fog.  I tried to just be empathetic and kind and go from hated to invited home to stunned and all over. I don't know what to feel or do and when because it's like a Cia mental torture  but she is being tortured

[formflier]

  I went downstairs to another room and she followed.  

Is there a room you can go to in your house where you can close and lock the door to be alone?

What was happening while you were being followed... .was she talking to you... .were you talking to her?

Hang in there!  We can see you are putting out a tremendous amount of effort.  I hope that we are able to help focus some of that effort.

 

[Skip]

Outside of the cutting I have told her therapist all of these things. And her therapist won't even respond to me.

He can't Hippa laws. You can ask your therapist to call her therapist.

I know you have a therapist.  I don't get the sense you have dialed him all the way in.  What does YOUR therapist know?

We also sent you crisis support information right in your neighborhood.  Have you talked to anyone at the crisis center?  What did they say?

The danger of a few weeks ago has subsided - there is a bit of a lull here- its time to get on it.

HH can you answer this?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm not sure I see her violating any "boundaries".

She has had the password for years. Many couples share emails, computers, etc.  There is no right and wrong here and she certainly isn't in violation of anything - she asked.

Are we missing the big picture here - possibly even pilling onto the HH's drama?

I am coming late to the discussion but did want to comment on this. It is quite normal for couples to share emails, computers, etc. My husband and I have done it for years.

I don't see the email/password thing as a boundary issue. I see it as a safety issue. During one of the worst times in my relationship with my husband, he got into my emails and texts and would flip out over what he found. I wasn't hiding anything but he would totally flip out. He was grasping at straws. I changed all of my passwords and locked him out of my accounts because I couldn't trust him to not flip out over what he found. If he found something he didn't like, he was welcome to ask me about it. Instead of asking me about in a rational manner, he would flip out and rage and I wouldn't have a clue as to what was going on until much, much later. Something he saw triggered him and I had no friggin' idea. We have gotten past that stage and are back to keeping our accounts logged in. But, in order for that to happen, both of us had to feel safe (emotionally and physically).

To put the password issue under the microscope and make it into a boundary issue is missing the bigger picture, which is that neither HH or his wife feel safe in the relationship.

The same thing goes for transparency. I don't hide things from my husband. However, when we were going through some of our worst times, I did start hiding things and keeping things to myself to avoid having to deal with his rages and unreasonableness. It was a protection mechanism. Now that he has a sponsor and is working on his side of things, I am not afraid to be transparent once again. It has taken a lot of time to get to that point and it is a work in progress. Without feeling safe, one cannot even think of building trust or being transparent. In Maslow's hierarchy, safety comes before friends, family, intimacy, and all that. If a person is not safe, then it becomes impossible to even think of the other stuff. The brain goes into survival mode.

[hurthusband]

The doctor can certainly and always responds when I am told to her her my wife won't be there in therapy.  I'm not asking for her to say anything about my wife.  She also was seeing us jointly for awhile until my wife said she felt like doc was againdt her.  I emailes doc if it would bebhelpful again to see us together or if separate.  I stated it my be a conflict and I understand but the doc never responded which she could have done and said it eouod have been a cobflict.

I went back and my wife started by stating it's not a legal contract but it read like one about a what she got and didn't get.  She stated that the comment in son not wanted to go to rodeo was unforgivable but was for most part calm and expressive and quite fair at some points.  I stated thst this was alot to process and I'm not mentally there at this time and I needed time to think.  Thst is when things went down hill.  She was still calm but kept pressuring me.  It was like an interrogstor.  She expressed herself more and started to push buttons moderately and bringing up other stuff.  I stated thst I need time to think and I am not sure what to say.  I stated I hear how she feels but I might feel differently.  She wanted to know but I said it was kot your because usually if I express myself it exacerbates things and thst is not what I want.  She kept up thr pressure so I went to leave.  She refused to let me leave.  I begged her to get away from my car and she would not.  I felt like an interogstion and demanded to sign a confession.  I was calling for lawyer ie... space and she would not give it.  She threatened some.  I starred to panic which made me look worse.  She started with ultimatum... finally I crawled out door she wasn't blocking and she let me go... . I tried to walk away.  I tried to listen and not react snd ask for time to think...  she wouldn't allow it. I feel like I'm a problem as she said I have been out of control for days and I have been distraught some but it's usually in reaction to her.

I have told my therapist everything.  He is concerned and unsure why I stay in this... I'm going more and more to him weekly.   And on the phone too.  I told him about harming myself few weeks back and if I was a danger.   I have not talked to crisis center because I have no plans to hurt myself.   It will make things worse for my wife and kids and everyone else.  I'm held hostage in life you might say.

I didn't know therapists can talk so I might do that. Although my wife says her disparage my therapist.  Still that wouldn't make sense.

Why can't my wife not try and control everything...  it's not my fault I didn't m ow what all the gift she got me could do.  :)oes she not remember throwing it at me or throwing gifts I get her at me and demanding they be taken back and they are bad?  Then she starts in... .

It doesn't matter.  My wife wants me isolated.  Maybe I should be isolated from my mom since wife says I can't stand up to her but I don't see anything my mother bullies me into like my wife.  Mother says always to side with my wife.  I avoid my Kotter anyways cause she has mental issues of her own.  Wife hats smy other work too before this too...

She keeps saying how her doc says she is healthy and doing things healthy and I am not but there is so much evidence showing she can't even function while outside of my wife and i... I do well

[momtara]

Buying her gifts is good.  She can't look back and say you didn't get her anything.  She will criticize to make herself feel better.

I am concerned about her false claims about you.  All she has to do is call the cops and you will be barred from the house and need a lawyer.  Your posts on this board aren't going to serve as any documentation.  You need to start using a tape recorder and documenting.

If she has done things that are a danger to herself, and you can prove it, you can talk to the local hosp psych place and see if they will come get her, maybe?  Or talk to her and see if she wants to go?

I think it's important to answer those questions above - has your T talked to her T?  Have you taliked to the crisis center?  This goes on every day and someone is going to get more hurt than just a toenail.  :)o you think that will be a lot better than what happens now?  WHat if a kid gets hit by a car or falls down stairs or hurts himself?

I was scared to get anyone involved when I was married because I knew my H would see it as a betrayal.  But eventually things came to a head anyway.  

You can document her running you over with the police without them doing anything about it.  Just in case anything comes up.  They might even have some ideas for you.

I saw a post of yours from a week ago in which you said you wish something happened - like, if you got committed or something.  I kinow you are hoping fate will somehow save you.  But it may just make things worse if someone gets hurt or hospitalized.  It'd be better if someone takes control of the situation.

And no, it was not wrong, what you said.  But I think the less said about triggery issues (like your mom), the better.  Practice saying I don't want to talk about that now.

[momtara]

"I have told my therapist everything.  He is concerned and unsure why I stay in this... I'm going more and more to him weekly."

You should ask him to let the other T know how bad your wife is.  Can the other T ask your wife to limit calls to work, etc? 

"I told him about harming myself few weeks back and if I was a danger.   I have not talked to crisis center because I have no plans to hurt myself."

But your family is in crisis.  She is in crisis.  Someone may get hurt.  You almost did, with the car.  What happens next time - what are you going to say if a kid gets in the way of a car?  Or if your wife hurts herself?

You think you can control this situation.  There's too much mental iillness involved. Someone outside needs to help.

"It will make things worse for my wife and kids and everyone else.  I'm held hostage in life you might say."

Sort of.  But maybe not.

[hurthusband]

The same thing goes for transparency. I don't hide things from my husband. However, when we were going through some of our worst times, I did start hiding things and keeping things to myself to avoid having to deal with his rages and unreasonableness. It was a protection mechanism. Now that he has a sponsor and is working on his side of things, I am not afraid to be transparent once again. It has taken a lot of time to get to that point and it is a work in progress. Without feeling safe, one cannot even think of building trust or being transparent. In Maslow's hierarchy, safety comes before friends, family, intimacy, and all that. If a person is not safe, then it becomes impossible to even think of the other stuff. The brain goes into survival mode.

Bit more clear now that I am away from her.  This I think is something that hits home.  Safety... . this might be the whole source.  When I am around her I don't feel safe at all.  I feel like a lion tamer.  I love the lion, the lion lives me, but at any point the lion could attack and overpower me unless I'm on guard at all times.  Problem is this guard makes me hyper sensitive and fearful of any minute detail with my wife which is not good for growing as it makes her feel guilty.  At same time, it has been trained into me that I should be in guard cause anything could get me attacked be it something out of control.  Text from somebody she knows, illness in family, or kid messing up... .or the maybe 4 times in 12 years message from my mother.

She on other hand fears all these things and wants me to protect her which is an impossibility.  The sticky one is when it's somebody I deal with where she feels I should lay her boundaries as my own or I don't care.  Or simply seek vengeance which is not my nature.  I am quite forgiving.  

I detach so I don't screw up so she senses it as me not caring and she doesn't feel safe.  I'm detaching because she attacks me when I get close so I don't feel safe.  I see this dynamic but she wants to only hear her side unless she has a moment when she says she knows what she is doing but like being possessed reverts back quickly

[Skip]

 a

I have told my therapist everything.  He is concerned and unsure why I stay in this... I'm going more and more to him weekly.   And on the phone too.  I told him about harming myself few weeks back and if I was a danger.   I have not talked to crisis center because I have no plans to hurt myself.   It will make things worse for my wife and kids and everyone else.  I'm held hostage in life you might say.

I didn't know therapists can talk so I might do that. Although my wife says her disparage my therapist.  Still that wouldn't make sense.

Why can't my wife not try and control everything... .

Your wife is in crisis. She can't take care of you. You have to take care of you.

Can you tell us more of what the therapists is saying as it related to domestic violence, suicidal ideation, and threats to involve the police. Have you spoken to your about options other than leaving her?

I'm trying to encourage you to stop reacting to her moods and start taking charge of your life... .there is an environment now where innocently, something really bad can happen. 



You have thousands of words here about your emotional struggles - which is okay, that's why were here - but you really need to put some of those words into examining things you can do to alleviate this crisis.

[Panda39]

Hurthusband,

I find reading your thread completely overwhelming and I'm on the outside looking in.  Can you remove yourself for a few days?  Stay in a hotel, turn your phone off, get some rest and clear your head?

I feel like you have no space at all to process anything that is going on here.  It is like she is using psychological torture techniques on you or something.

I know you care about your wife and kids and your mother but when do you care about you?  You have the right to work in peace, you have the right to leave your house when you are being abused and you are being abused what will it take for you to do something to help yourself? 

You focus on them and changing them and appeasing them and satisfying them and making them happy... .you cannot change them, you can only change you and what you do.  They do nothing to help you to protect you.  Only you can protect you.  What is one thing that you can change right now today that would help you?

So many here have offered suggestions two of them are things you can do... .that you can control:

1) Turn off your phone at work (Have you ever tried talking with your boss about this?  Maybe he could help you out with boundaries at work)

2) Leave when she is abusive (if she blocks your car call the police)

Hurthusband you can do nothing for your wife and kids when you are a mess... .you must think about YOU!

We care, we can give advice, we can listen but only you can act. 

[vortex of confusion]

Bit more clear now that I am away from her.  This I think is something that hits home.  Safety... . this might be the whole source.  When I am around her I don't feel safe at all.  I feel like a lion tamer.  I love the lion, the lion lives me, but at any point the lion could attack and overpower me unless I'm on guard at all times.  Problem is this guard makes me hyper sensitive and fearful of any minute detail with my wife which is not good for growing as it makes her feel guilty.  At same time, it has been trained into me that I should be in guard cause anything could get me attacked be it something out of control.  Text from somebody she knows, illness in family, or kid messing up... .or the maybe 4 times in 12 years message from my mother.

You are not going to be able to think clearly until you get to safety. That is what Skip and others are trying to help you understand. Get to safety!

I was in a really bad spot a year or two ago. I went to my dad and was very upset because things were in such a turmoil at home. He told me that I needed to get away for a while. He said that I needed to be gone for at least a week. I had all sorts of reasons why I couldn't do it. I didn't have the money. The kids would freak out without me. What about the bills and this and that and the other. My dad told me that none of that mattered. He sat me down and helped me find answers to all of my reasons for not being able to get away for a bit. Do you have somebody in real life that can sit down with you and help you come up with solutions so that you can get yourself to a place of safety long enough to think more clearly?

I would not be able to think straight or make any kind of decision about anything unless I got some space. Luckily for me, I was able to tell my husband, "My dad said blah, blah, blah" so he didn't argue. Is there any way that you can get your therapist or somebody else that your wife will listen to to tell her that you are going to take a week or two and spend some time somewhere else. I wasn't leaving my husband. I was simply taking some time to myself. When I left, I made sure that my husband had everything that he needed. I made sure that I had a back up plan in place in case my husband needed help with the kids. Taking that week away made a huge difference. It calmed my husband and I both down quite a bit. Things were still really tense but it helped diffuse things a little.

[hurthusband]

hard part is my wife trusts nobody in my life and i would venture and the only person in her life is her sister.

we do talk about separating but she doesnt keep up with no contact or asking me to come back or asking for help because i am literally all she has

she talked rationally about a separation today and had a 3 page work up on who gets what to the point that it was overwhelming and i need to think about it.  it really sounded more like a divorce decree such as me paying for everything until she got money which might be 3 to 12 months and me staying there or staying elsewhere but she had full control over basically what happens with kids... .

i did not want to agree with it right then and there because it sounded like a document that might be beneficial for me a year from now but in meantime still held me as a slave for an indefinite amount of time so i wanted space to think which she would not give

the odd part is she thinks i just want to sweep things under the rug.  honestly, the past is past... why not just concentrate on going forward.  why keep concentrating on other sin our lives.  i can say that everyone in my life will love her if they just see me at peace. she wants them to submit now though to her and me to submit which they will not do even though i have for most part

after thinking i told her i love her and i thank her for her thoughtfulness of her gift.  i did not take it cause really only place to live is my mothers and i dont think she wants anything over there from her... .but that also upsets her.  i told her i would love to take her out for vday and us to spend time together.  that i still find her smart, and enjoyable and sexy... that apparantly we both have fear though of each other which is hindering trust.  therapy would be needed jointly but maybe we are not at that point yet.  i would move into the room if she wants and we can live together but while i did not say this i do not think she can respect my space and need for space at times

that is what broke down a healthy conversation today... she expressed herself.  i wanted time to think and space to then express myself at more calm time since 1 hour before things were bad.  She just refused to give that.  I think that is fair to ask for.  I think she was good in what she asked but the implementation crossed a boundary and its frustrating to be cornered ...


i am sitting work office now typing this because forums are really hard to type on a phone.  i am not sure where to turn to for help. My therapist talking to hers is the one idea i think that might work.  I have invited her to talk to my therapist with me too.  She says she has lost how she feels for me... i dont know.  i am not arguing that with her.  she has no support system, and she hates my support system which is not the best anyways, but better than nothing i suppose.  It doesnt help that she has family members going into the hospital on deaths door each of past 3 months, she loses her job, she loses her friends, and she has all her things she prides herself on stolen from her.  She needs to go to a hospital i think.  I may too.  her doc obviously feels she does not but i dont see how.

I do understand the trauma of the facility she would be put into is the same one that her mother, father, and grandmother all got improper care in and left two dead ... .that is according to other hospitals even.  It would have to be traumatic staying there not only worrying about the care you are getting but the emotions that go there too

I suppose I am talking about helping her and I need to help myself...   Just concerned im the problem and presenting all of you a poor perspective that skews towards my benefit which i do not want to do.  I am also deep in fog here.

i just feel horrible going and saving myself to leave her to die.  I also dont want to be an indentured servant.  I am being indecisive which is even worse.  I think a few days from her at my mothers who is not there for next two weeks would be good.  i woudl love to still take her out to valentines day

here is a weird part.  her sister knows nothing of what is going on apparently.  Nobody does.  She is just bottling it all up.  She is using me not only as the source of her problems but also as her support.  It is very strange having to be a supportive person in a situation where i am what she needs support with.  I seem to be supportive as the person she wants support from in her eyes but i am not supportive as a husband.  That make sense?

[vortex of confusion]

here is a weird part.  her sister knows nothing of what is going on apparently.  Nobody does.  She is just bottling it all up.  She is using me not only as the source of her problems but also as her support.  It is very strange having to be a supportive person in a situation where i am what she needs support with.  I seem to be supportive as the person she wants support from in her eyes but i am not supportive as a husband.  That make sense?

It is a trap! Don't do it. I know exactly what you are describing. I was in a similar situation at one point. I was expected to be my husband's support person and accountability partner but there was nobody there for me. I was floundering. When I would try to step away from being the support person, I felt like I was being pulled back in.

When I went to my dad, he had NO idea of what had been going on. I kept most of our problems pretty quiet for a really long time. From the outside, I am sure that people thought I was the problem because I was being a bit crazy and erratic. What people didn't see or hear was the fact that my husband would rage at me. He would make all kinds of remarks about knowing how to fix everything. He would go to the bathroom and get his straight razor or go to leave in the car. I was supposed to do everything for him but there was nobody for me. I have opened up and told people about our problems. I have had a couple of talks with his mother. I have tried to pose it as, "I love your son but I am really concerned about him." I gave here a watered down version of what was going on but nonetheless I made her aware of it. Is it possible to get her sister aside and tell her that you are concerned for your wife? Stop protecting her. Let people in her life know that she is struggling. You can tell them without making her out to be the bad guy. She has dealt with the loss of her parents, the loss of a job, and is falling apart. It is understandable. Can you phrase it as she needs more support than you can give her right now?

When I read your posts, I can hear all of the excuses that I have made at different times. You need to take care of YOU and your wife needs to find somebody other than you to support her emotionally. The level of support that she is wanting from you is not realistic. I know how difficult it is to back off from being the support person for her. Continuing with this dynamic is not good for anybody involved. Stop worrying about whether you are the problem or if she is the problem. It doesn't matter. BOTH of you are in crisis and need help.

[hurthusband]

her sister is not healthy that way

when they went to Europe together, her sister was so mean with telling them her father who had heart problems just needed to tough out the walking.  She would yell at my wife constantly to point my wife asked me to fly her home before it was over.  When i went to her sister when my wife wanted a suicide pact and hit and kicked me, her sister ignored it and did nothing.  In fact, my wife said that later on she told my wife that i knew what i was signing up for and just needed to man up

her sister also told me couple of weeks ago most people just work 5 days a week and 8 to 5 so i just need to figure out something else job wise cause i worked 47 hours 6 days a week.

she went with my wife to my wife therapist and my wife said things went poorly that she was angry and therapist didnt think she was ready for a joint therapy...

i so i dont think i can trust her. plus i gotta be careful not to turn her against wife and side with me since thats her only support left

[hurthusband]

one thing i keep saying to keep me sane is despite my family being whacky... i have no problems with anyone else in my life... ever even. maybe thats cause i am a pushover... i dont know. 

[Panda39]

she talked rationally about a separation today and had a 3 page work up on who gets what to the point that it was overwhelming and i need to think about it.  it really sounded more like a divorce decree such as me paying for everything until she got money which might be 3 to 12 months and me staying there or staying elsewhere but she had full control over basically what happens with kids... .

i did not want to agree with it right then and there because it sounded like a document that might be beneficial for me a year from now but in meantime still held me as a slave for an indefinite amount of time so i wanted space to think which she would not give

This is NOT the time to even think about much less agree to something like this.  Do not discuss divisions of assets or custody while your family is in crisis.  You are not thinking clearly and you are not thinking in terms of YOUR best interests right now.

[hurthusband]

she talked rationally about a separation today and had a 3 page work up on who gets what to the point that it was overwhelming and i need to think about it.  it really sounded more like a divorce decree such as me paying for everything until she got money which might be 3 to 12 months and me staying there or staying elsewhere but she had full control over basically what happens with kids... .

i did not want to agree with it right then and there because it sounded like a document that might be beneficial for me a year from now but in meantime still held me as a slave for an indefinite amount of time so i wanted space to think which she would not give

This is NOT the time to even think about much less agree to something like this.  Do not discuss divisions of assets or custody while your family is in crisis.  You are not thinking clearly and you are not thinking in terms of YOUR best interests right now.

that is exactly what i thought... she said it was not a divorce or anything like that, but that is why i asked to think about it and leave but she did not want to let me without a response which was panicking me

[momtara]

If it's "not like a divorce or anyting" then don't sign it.  Why should you?  What if you ask her to sign a document saying you get 50 percent of time with the kids? 

You have a habit of saying yes to whatever she wants and it gets you into a deeper hole and then you are in an even worse place to stop the madness. 

She will have you give her all your money, then if she makes a legal move or accusation, you will have no money to fight her and you may wind up in handcuffs, or never able to see the kids again.

Many dads here have ended up in similar situations because they were too trusting.  Right now, you have not agreed to anything.  Don't make a mistake!  You will regret it.

It is okay to say you need a long time to think of your answer to a question, even if she keeps asking you teh same question 15 times.  Give her the same answer til she stops.  That is a common BPD thing for them to do these "circular arguments" where they ask something again and again.

You agreed to buy her a new car, computer, rescue her from Europe, etc., etc.  Those agreements birng temporary relief.  Then something else happens.  You never know what emergency you may have tomorrow.  Don't let her mainpulate you.  SHe is ill but still capable of doing that.

[hurthusband]

well 3 hours ago i wrote her an email stated that i had thought things over and while i am not agreeing to everything lets just make peace.  obviously fear is hindering our communication.  so i can move into another room as she proposed.  i told her i did love her and how she is smart and talented and i am still very attracted to her and love her.  how i would love to take her out this weekend, but we can operate in space for awhile. 

all of this and no response for 3.5 hours

now she says how dare i not follow up nor be worried about her.  how i left her like a madman there and i should have continued to call and text after that message if i cared.  i thought she wanted space is why she didnt respond to me even.  i dont want to harrass her...

she says i can sleep on couch tonight and she will file for divorce tomorrow

how am i supposed to know when to pursue her and when to give her space?  there is no pattern of behavior to learn her reaction or what she wants.  its just the opposite of what i do. 

and i am sitting her questioning whether i should have kept calling or i should do what all she says or how far i should meet her in the middle or all sorts of things.  blaming myself...

worrying in confusing everyone.  i am sure she is sick to a degree but i am too and how much is my fault.  is it just boundaries?

[Grey Kitty]

how am i supposed to know when to pursue her and when to give her space?  there is no pattern of behavior to learn her reaction or what she wants.  its just the opposite of what i do. 

If you chase her crisis or her opinion, you will be stuck where you are.

Her reacting in the opposite way is the push-pull dynamic. And you are participating by changing what you want based on her latest reaction.

Work out what you want for yourself, and stop reacting to her. That is the only way you will find peace, whether working on your marriage or ending it.

[momtara]

HH, your chain of messages has pretty much been like this:

HH: She asked me for X, so I did it and she got mad anyway.

Group: Stop reacting to and talking to her for a while. You can't win no matter what you do.

HH: So she called again and yelled and I did what she wanted and she got mad anyway.

Group: Stop reacting to and talking to her for a while.

HH... .you are doing the same thing over and over, and she will always find something wrong.  You are asking a logical question - how are you supposed to know what she wants? You can't, because she's mentally ill.

You are going to end up giving up something ridiculous, like money or the kids or something.  Please stop responding to her demands.

And you keep saying you are doing something wrong.  You are doing nothing wrong.  You are trying to control someone's mental illness.  You think if you tap dance enough, things will get better.  It seems that they won't unless something different happens, someone intervenes or you just step away a bit.

As for her filing for divorce, it's an empty threat. Don't listen. She has no interest in doing that. She'd give up the person who does everything for her.

Stop responding to her every demand.  Try to take a day off from her and get some peace.  You can tell her you both need a breather for a day, and then stick to it.

Tomorrow is a workday. Are you going to answer her million phone calls and get sucked into an even worse fight, or are you going to let them go to voicemail?  Don't let yourself be abused. You can send another email saying you love her, you hope she has a good day, you both need some time today to focus on your own stuff, etc.

[Notwendy]

"You have a habit of saying yes to whatever she wants and it gets you into a deeper hole and then you are in an even worse place to stop the madness. "



HH, I don't have advice but reading your posts reminds me so much of my father. My mother (wBPD) ruled all of our lives. In order to get a brief moment of peace, my father gave in to whatever she wanted. He did get a moment of peace but it didn't last long. I see where he felt he had to do this- he needed to work and was responsible for supporting us. He would enlist us kids to keep mom happy so that he could do this.

Over the years, it became habit, even if mom's demands were unrealistic or unreasonable. We were her virtual slaves. If I went out with dad alone, once we had cell phones, she would call him every 5-10 minutes to see where he was. It was so much a habit that if she didn't call, he'd call to check in. It was ridiculous- my father could not even spend a day with his adult daughter without checking in with her. Dad wasn't "allowed" to give me much money for college, because she would get angry.

The results of all this affected the kids. I grew up to be so co-dependent that I couldn't say no to people and was co-dependent in my relationships. I don't blame my dad, or my mom for that matter. She was sick. He loved her and had few resources such as this board. I know that their relationship was good at times as well.

However, this constant giving in didn't solve anything. I hope you will find the stregnths to do something differently, and also for your children's sake.

[hurthusband]

the hard part is that I do know I am ill too.  I am working on it, but she says I am not.  Am I healthy enough to judge that just as I do not know she is healthy enough to judge herself?

The big thing she keeps harping on is the situation with Rodeo tickets.  My mother, the day after the whole threat from her to my wife about leaving me alone or else, heard I was going to be taking my son for Saturday evening.  My mother had box seats to the Rodeo and offered them to me since she is not into that sort of thing.  I had told my wife because I thought this was a kind gesture.  My wife was upset she just offered my son and I, but my mother did not think I was even home to take my wife.  Anyways, I knew my son would probably not want to go and my wife said there is no way my son is allowed to take anything from my mother after the threat she made and it was rude for her not to offer more tickets.  So Saturday, my mother asked me if I wanted the tickets, and I stated that my son said he was thankful for the offer, but he was not really into the rodeo.  I thought this was polite because it was a kind gesture and it did not make anyone seem rude

My wife is furious because she says I lied about my son.  My son did not know anything about this.  She says I should have drawn a boundary and told my mother "i cannot take these tickets because you threatened my wife and as a result there will be no contact nor conversation about my family with you"

Was I wrong on that?  Did i let my mother cross a boundary or was i just doing the polite thing and maintaining peace rather than needless arguing and pain?

Anyways, sitting here today... .she has upper hand.  She got me a nice gift for me.  I cannot say i really do not want it because she put alot into it and I am thankful for that and that is all that really matters to me.  The problem is that she has that over my head.  She hated my gift and told me to return.  She does not want anything from my, but at same time if i get nothing that is worse.  I know she would like to stay at a nice hotel etc for VDAy, but she will not even talk to me now so do I make plans and shell out $350 or more on a hotel and not even go?  Then I am also out a gift to her which is doubly bad.  It is a catch 22

Or I just ignore everything and say I am not a bad person while she suffers and implodes.  Not run the circle, but its also plain mean not to here.  All so confusing.  Hardest part is she does not understand how much I do care. 

[momtara]

1.  Many of us have some mental illness.  To me, you sound quite rational every time you post.  I think you know she is almost always in the wrong but you love her and want justification to keep giving in, as it's easier.  It's clear that you are almost always right and you are doing your best for her.  Please stop blaming yourself.  The only place where I see your judgment is off is that you keep doing what she asks and letting her call and fight with you.

2.  The fact that you have to pay $350 for a hotel is sad.  I'd be happy if someone took me to McDonald's for V-Day - it's the thought and effort that counts.  You can always make sure it's a chain hotel and cancel it that day if you're concerned.  But you know that no matter what you do, she'll find a way to criticize so she can have the upper hand.  You ordered her nice shoes and she made you feel like crap about it.  It's the thought that counts.  I'm sure you could come up with lots of ways to complain about her gift to you too if you were as dysregulated as she was.  Gifts with my ex caused trauma too - mine to him were never the right kind, or nice enough.  Gifts are supposed to be joyful, not a thing to cause pain.  What did you originally plan to get her?  Can you find her something less expensive, or just say you'll pay for dinner and she can choose the place that night and let you know, and not do anything you can't take back?  If you reserve a hotel, maybe do it in a way so that you can cancel that day and get your money back.

All of these are just little ways to maintain peace for another day until disaster happens.  

**She put you and herself in danger with the car.**  You seem to not want to acknowledge things like that.  You really think it won't happen again? 

If I were your therapist I'd call her therapist and say she's a danger to herself and others, this situation is out of control, she needs to be committed to a hospital until she is really stablizied on the right meds.  HH, think what a relief that would be!  Maybe she'd come out of there much better.  Maybe she'd even agree - who knows?  Or at least your T could talk some sense into her T and find a solution.

Clearly she needs you - to help her and the kids.  So your T's should be working to make this situation tolerable instead of on the way toward exploding.

Someone may get hurt otherwise.  Then Valentine's Day and other nonsense really wouldn't matter, would it?

As for the rodeo thing, you were polite.  Your wife wanted something to complain about.  You are telling her way too much information.  Keep discussions to a minimum and she'll have less to attack.

[sweetheart]

Yes HH you absolutely are in a Catch 22 situation. It has another name a double bind, "Go away I hate you, come back I need you." Simultaneous requests that negate each other. You are the 'emotional fall-guy' in this ongoing abusive cycle.

As you try to keep your wife happy you are placed in a lose- lose position over and over again. You know this, I can hear you know this.

You can break this cycle, but there are risks associated with all change.

I wonder if the risks are what keep you stuck in the cycle. The risks of course are that the marriage might fail. This is a lot to lose when you have children also. I can hear how much you love your family. So by continuing as you are at least this is what you know, it is a pattern of behaving and responding that you are now very familiar with, you know this script off by heart.

So if for now the way you are going to respond remains the same can you think about the questions below as a way of highlighting any changes that may have taken place.

Does the situation with your wife feel as though it is decreasing in intensity?

Are her responses becoming easier to predict?

Have your stress levels reduced any as this has continued?

Are you able to manage your stress a bit better given you know how your wife is likely to respond?

What's the most important thing you have realised throughout this difficult time?

[fordprefect]

all I can say on this hh is it all sounds very familiar. You get caught between the two most significant females in your life pushing and pulling at you. You want to please both but end up with them both upset... .its very frustrating to be in this situation... .I feel for you man.

[hurthusband]

Does the situation with your wife feel as though it is decreasing in intensity? Getting worse now.  Got significantly better from November til mid January... maybe best it had been in years

Are her responses becoming easier to predict? More predictable from stance of always bad

Have your stress levels reduced any as this has continued?  Increased

Are you able to manage your stress a bit better given you know how your wife is likely to respond? No, its only worse because her response is worse and continuous.  Harrassing

What's the most important thing you have realised throughout this difficult time? That not much matters and things can always get worse

[sweetheart]

Thank you HH for your responses, so now you have a coherent timeline to present to a Crisis Team, or your family doctor or to discuss with your therapist by way of getting comprehensive advice on how you need to proceed for you and your family.

Your family doctor or therapist or Crisis Team have a duty of care to act in a way that helps minimise risks, to you, your wife and your family.

Your T is someone that knows you so maybe ask him a direct question about what to do. It can't be helpful to hear someone say 'well I'm surprised you haven't left her' ask him to be specific. Get him to contact a Crisis Centre on your behalf, there is absolutely no reason why he would not be able to do this if he is aware of how desperate you have been feeling recently. If you can push him to use his connections and to get you clear advice on how to progress with this it might help you feel less alone out there with all of this.

Do you have a T booked for this week?

Is this something you would feel able to do?