I can't stop myself from trying to be 'right'

[Grey Kitty]

I've learned a lot from the tools here, and I know that trying to prove myself right in a disagreement is invalidating, and generally makes a mess. I'm even pretty good at not doing it in big, heavy discussions.

But I keep catching myself after I've done it. Lately when my wife points it out or reacts to it.

I immediately and instinctively disagreeing when my wife said that a specific play in the superbowl was a turning point, for example.

I'm pretty sure my FOO plays into this heavily... .here is some history:

My parents often get into disagreements about facts--like whether some specific vacation stop was 1997 or 1996. I'm not 100% keeping score, but the 'normal' dynamic is that my dad who is pretty quiet most of the time will say something, and my mom will immediately correct him. Frequently a brief 'debate' follows, ending with my dad apologizing for being wrong.

Actually this is broader--my mom finds lots of ways to do this kind of thing, not always about facts, and my dad nearly always apologizes... .and he is a very gentle person, who doesn't do many things which are apology-worthy. It doesn't turn into a shouting debate, and while my mom's tone is irritated and/or scornful, the words are reasonable and polite.

It goes back another generation. One story my mom has told a few times is that when she was a kid, the family taped an envelope to the fridge for each of them, my mom, my grandmother, and my grandfather. When somebody won an argument, a penny was put in their envelope. My grandmother's envelope got so heavy it fell off the fridge.



Anybody else have experience on either side of this?

Any suggestions on what I can do to stop myself from speaking up to prove myself 'right' when I don't usually notice until it has happened already?

[vortex of confusion]

I hate to admit that I laughed at this post because I have lots of experience with it.

I don't know how many times I have sat with my parents and listened to them recount stories. My mom will get hung up on pointing out certain details and will pretty much stall the story because she will want to argue about the specifics. I have interrupted her and said, "Mom, does that little detail make a difference to the story?" Most of the time, she will say not really so I will tell her to drop it and move on. The whole time I am getting my mom to quit harping about that one little detail, my dad is sitting there grinning. He might catch me later on and tell me the "real" story but he rarely, if ever, gets too far into proving her right. Most of the time, he will dismiss it as, "You know how your mother is."

My husband likes to be right as well. He is like my mom in that he will try to argue about minor details that don't have much relevance. Most of the time, I let it go by asking myself, "Is it going to hurt to let him be right? If he is right, is it really going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things?" So, I carefully pick my battles so to speak. There are days when I am feeling feisty and feel like fighting because I am tired of letting him be right without presenting my side. Those times rarely have a good ending. 

Oh, and I remember doing some reading about how I can have my own reality/truth without having other people agree with me. That is something that my dad has said for years. I will never forget the time we were sitting on his porch and he said something along the lines of, "Sometimes, you just gotta know when to shut up. I wish your mother knew how to do that."

I wish I could find the source but I read something not too long ago about letting go of the need to to be right. I think it may have been something that I read about DBT.

[Copperfox]

One thing I've had to learn the hard way is that in any situation, it's important to pause and ask yourself: "What do I want out of this situation?  What am I trying to achieve?" ... .then gear your behavior towards that.

Often, what we really want requires us to act opposite of how we might instinctively act. 

Is "being right" what you really want? Or do you subconsciously think being right is the means to some other end, e.g. if I can convince them I'm right then maybe they'll do 'X'?

The problem is "being right" means someone else must be wrong. Which makes them defensive, creating a divide.  When really getting things we want requires pulling people closer, subtle suggestion, making our wants theirs.  And so with "being right" - instead of achieving what you really want - you are actually getting in your own way. 

[Grey Kitty]

One thing I've had to learn the hard way is that in any situation, it's important to pause and ask yourself: "What do I want out of this situation?  What am I trying to achieve?" ... .then gear your behavior towards that.

Often, what we really want requires us to act opposite of how we might instinctively act. 

Is "being right" what you really want? Or do you subconsciously think being right is the means to some other end, e.g. if I can convince them I'm right then maybe they'll do 'X'?

The problem is "being right" means someone else must be wrong. Which makes them defensive, creating a divide.  When really getting things we want requires pulling people closer, subtle suggestion, making our wants theirs.  And so with "being right" - instead of achieving what you really want - you are actually getting in your own way. 

I completely understand and believe that being right is NOT very important most of the time, and works against what I usually want to accomplish.

If I'm having an 'important' conversation, like a job interview or a relationship discussion with my wife, I pause and think before I speak.

Other times, I just want to relax and chat, and don't feel the need to think twice about every sentence before I speak it. And those times are when these little corrections / attempts to be right seem to creep in when I'm not paying attention. I don't even know if I do it with most everybody, or just when I'm talking to my wife. I wish I had an easy way to break myself of the habit.

[Reforming]

Grey Kitty I can totally relate to this.

In my case as well it's definitely a strong family trait, even though it often escalates into unpleasant arguments. 

Copperfox I think you're right about pausing and asking yourself "What do I want out of this situation", but it's surprising how compelling it can be.

Intellectually I recognise that it's futile, unlikeable and destructive, but it can be a real battle to resist it.

I actually raised this with my Schema T after I'd resisted an incredibly strong urge to have the last word with my brother.

She suggested that the little me or vulnerable child clearly felt exposed humiliated because he wasn't getting the support and connection that he needed from the healthy adult part - which is underdeveloped.

I've been working to make the healthy adult part of me stronger and more present. It may sound a bit esoteric, but it's really helped

I'd say more, but I'm wary of trying to have the last word  

Reforming

[going places]

Anybody else have experience on either side of this?

Any suggestions on what I can do to stop myself from speaking up to prove myself 'right' when I don't usually notice until it has happened already?

My dad always had to have the last word.

That's how HE controlled things.

My mom let him have it but seethed with resentment.

I grew up and said I would never put up with someone like my dad. Felt my mom was weak... .so I adopted daddy's ways.

Bull headed, last word gettin' control freak.

EX's dad is a know it all blow hard. Never zips it up; only talks about what HE wants to talk about, and he will cut you off, interrupt, one up your story, expand on how HE knows more about the topic than anyone; etc.

EX's mom sat a smiled and let him do and say whatever he wanted; until he dumped her after 25 years of marriage. Before that she never say crap even if she had a mouth full of it.

EX grew up being babied, told he was smarter than every one else, told that he was the most precious thing on earth.

When he got in trouble he was sent to his room to sit on his bed and read.

He seethes with resentment; creates 'fantasies' in his head, creates his own reality because he didn't like the one he was in.

For the first 10 years of our marriage I was the 'last word girl' and he would go in another room and seethe.

For the next 15 years; I stopped with the last word game... .but he; he became more and more like his father and MY mother... .

A blow hard know it all, argue every thing to the death until everyone in the room validated he was RIGHT and SMARTER than everyone else on the planet. Then he would treat you like an idiot because he's so smart.

OR

God Forbid someone else is right about something and he is wrong.

Seething, temper tantrums, silent treatment for day, pouting, sulking, door slamming FOR DAYS... .

So, I 'let' him be right all the time.

It was the more 'peaceful option'... .however, it's abuse. His behavior is abusive. HE is abusive.

Suggestions on how to stop?

Practice. Catch yourself, and retrain the way your brain things.

Create new patterns of thinking.

[Suzn]

Hey GK. I've been in your shoes. A big part of my "learning" has been in a way a practice in avoidance. Bear with me... .

When I was quite young, 6 or 7 yrs old, my mother bought us a set of children's encyclopedias. There was about 15 or so books in that set. Lots of pretty and interesting pictures and information. I devoured those books. And with all this new knowledge I was probably a little know it all sharing what I'd learned, who knows. Having family members that didn't know how to encourage my learning became apparent as I continue to dig through my FOO past.

Anyway, one story from my past has always stuck out for me as an example of why I've had the same issues surrounding being right and why. I think I was in third grade age wise. We lived in an area where tornadoes were prevalent. We were living with relatives, my aunt, to be specific. A storm came in and the tornado sirens went off. My aunt was the only adult there. She took myself my brother and her three children under the house literally. Of course she was trying to keep us safe and probably a little scared herself. Anyway, I had made the comment that when a tornado comes there's a period of silence and no wind. This is something I read about or saw on TV, I don't know but it is correct information. She responded by telling me that was the stupidest thing she'd ever heard. I was completely humiliated. I was the oldest child and for some reason I expected her to acknowledge my wisdom. 

She did a lot of things over the course of my childhood to "put me in my place" such putting her daughter "in charge" if she left us alone. Again, I was the oldest. There were many other examples, I was disciplined for doing things her children did with no consequences. She wasn't the only one in my family that treated me that way so I came away feeling that people thought I was stupid.

I have no problem sharing that this is a trigger for me today. I recognize it and manage. Getting to the avoidance part, I became obsessed with "knowing things" and learning because I never wanted to be put in the position to feel the shame of being proven wrong or feeling stupid. ":)on't make a fool of me" was a common thought for me.

Something my T said has stuck with me. "If you have a problem being wrong, you will always struggle." I fought back against that, I don't need to be right, but I did need to be right because it helped me avoid feeling that old shame that's been with me since childhood.

I remind myself often of a few things in regards to this topic. First, my memories are that of a child, from a child's perspective. A child is ever learning and with healthy guidance flourishes. I didn't have healthy guidance so now that I'm an adult I can put all those memories in a more proper perspective. My aunt was diagnosed Bi polar and I still questioned whether that was the correct diagnosis but nevertheless... .

Next, I am not stupid but the more I learn the more I realize I don't know. 

And last, there different types of conversations. A debate is a debate however a conversation can just be open to sharing insights. Being capable of listening, maybe I'll learn something new.

I have a friend on Facebook that debates everything if you respond to one of her posts. Interesting, I just want to share knowledge now and I recognized this in her not long ago in a conversation we were having on a post she shared about self awareness. I told her hey I'm not trying to prove you wrong I want to hear your perspective, this isn't a debate. And that I appreciated her sharing the article, and the information in articles such as that one helped me keep myself in check. It turned out pretty cool, she responded with "oh ok, me too."

I don't know if there's anything in your past that resembles what I've shared. I see today that me need to be right was simply an exercise in avoiding shame. I say simply but changing my inner child's perspective has been quite a challenge.

[Reforming]

I never wanted to be put in the position to feel the shame of being proven wrong or feeling stupid.


Something my T said has stuck with me. "If you have a problem being wrong, you will always struggle." I fought back against that, I don't need to be right, but I did need to be right because it helped me avoid feeling that old shame that's been with me since childhood.

I see today that me need to be right was simply an exercise in avoiding shame. I say simply but changing my inner child's perspective has been quite a challenge.

I can relate to this. I equated being wrong with  feelings of shame or humiliation. i felt small and exposed... .

Now I work to counter those feelings by reassuring the vulnerable part of me that it's ok to make mistakes and that being wrong doesn't mean I'm unloveable and worthless.

It's ok to be wrong and even if you are right highlighting it or trying to force others to agree with you is disrespectful and unpleasant.  

Don't you agree?  

[Copperfox]

I completely understand and believe that being right is NOT very important most of the time, and works against what I usually want to accomplish.

If I'm having an 'important' conversation, like a job interview or a relationship discussion with my wife, I pause and think before I speak.

Other times, I just want to relax and chat, and don't feel the need to think twice about every sentence before I speak it. And those times are when these little corrections / attempts to be right seem to creep in when I'm not paying attention. I don't even know if I do it with most everybody, or just when I'm talking to my wife. I wish I had an easy way to break myself of the habit.

You really have to train yourself to be a strategic thinker in all interpersonal situations, not so reactive.  It's not even just a BPD thing, with all people it is beneficial. 

I can understand wanting to just relax and chat, be completely free with no worries about other people's concerns or long term implications ... .but the reality is every interaction with another person entails those.  You will never be completely free.  There is always something at stake. 

On the flip side, those concerns, those feelings, buried in the weight of our words, our gestures ... .those are why we interact with people in the first place.  Why we build relationships.  And if we choose to interact, then we have to accept that with it comes some responsibility.  And that responsibility demands some strategy to our communication.

[Reforming]

I completely understand and believe that being right is NOT very important most of the time, and works against what I usually want to accomplish.

If I'm having an 'important' conversation, like a job interview or a relationship discussion with my wife, I pause and think before I speak.

Other times, I just want to relax and chat, and don't feel the need to think twice about every sentence before I speak it. And those times are when these little corrections / attempts to be right seem to creep in when I'm not paying attention. I don't even know if I do it with most everybody, or just when I'm talking to my wife. I wish I had an easy way to break myself of the habit.

You really have to train yourself to be a strategic thinker in all interpersonal situations, not so reactive.  It's not even just a BPD thing, with all people it is beneficial. 

I can understand wanting to just relax and chat, be completely free with no worries about other people's concerns or long term implications ... .but the reality is every interaction with another person entails those.  You will never be completely free.  There is always something at stake. 

On the flip side, those concerns, those feelings, buried in the weight of our words, our gestures ... .those are why we interact with people in the first place.  Why we build relationships.  And if we choose to interact, then we have to accept that with it comes some responsibility.  And that responsibility demands some strategy to our communication.

Copperfox I agree with the logic of what you're saying, but I think resisting or repressing compulsive behaviour can be exhausting.

When you can pinpoint that feelings that underpin a behaviour it's often easier to disarm or replace with a healthier one.

And that's my last word on this 

Reforming

[vortex of confusion]

Copperfox I agree with the logic of what you're saying, but I think resisting or repressing compulsive behaviour can be exhausting.

When you can pinpoint that feelings that underpin a behaviour it's often easier to disarm or replace with a healthier one.

I think it is important to look at the patterns and see whether or not it is truly compulsive. I have been thinking about this topic because, most of the time, I am okay with being wrong or being corrected. There are some situations and some people that set me off and I have to be extra careful. My husband and my mother are two people that I get lots of happy feelings out of being right. With my dad, my coworkers, my kids, and most everyone else, it doesn't matter.

With my husband, I have developed a tendency to want to be right. I have been thinking about it and I think it isn't so much that I want to be right as much as I want validation. I want to feel like my partner hears what I have to say. In the dynamic that we have had for a while, it seemed like I could say something and he would try to argue me out of it and the only way to get out of the situation was to find a way to be right. The possibility of two disparate opinions, ideas, thoughts, feelings coexisting was simply not possible for the longest time. The more I am given the space to feel my feelings and have my own reality, the less I feel the need to be right. It's more about validation and less about being right.

Something else that I was reminded of while thinking about this topic is something that I picked up on a parenting forum. A lot of parents have a tendency to disagree with their kids or tell them no automatically. Somebody recommended coming up with a list of phrases to use so that you have more time to think about whether or not you want to say yes/no or agree/disagree.

Some of them include:

"Hmmm, I'll have to think about that."

"Interesting perspective. Would you expand on it a bit?"

"I had never quite thought about that way before."

I think Formfliers "Help me understand" would also be a phrase to put in the toolbox so to speak.

It is buying yourself some time to take a more mindful approach.

[Reforming]

Copperfox I agree with the logic of what you're saying, but I think resisting or repressing compulsive behaviour can be exhausting.

When you can pinpoint that feelings that underpin a behaviour it's often easier to disarm or replace with a healthier one.

I think it is important to look at the patterns and see whether or not it is truly compulsive. I have been thinking about this topic because, most of the time, I am okay with being wrong or being corrected. There are some situations and some people that set me off and I have to be extra careful. My husband and my mother are two people that I get lots of happy feelings out of being right. With my dad, my coworkers, my kids, and most everyone else, it doesn't matter.

With my husband, I have developed a tendency to want to be right. I have been thinking about it and I think it isn't so much that I want to be right as much as I want validation. I want to feel like my partner hears what I have to say. In the dynamic that we have had for a while, it seemed like I could say something and he would try to argue me out of it and the only way to get out of the situation was to find a way to be right. The possibility of two disparate opinions, ideas, thoughts, feelings coexisting was simply not possible for the longest time. The more I am given the space to feel my feelings and have my own reality, the less I feel the need to be right. It's more about validation and less about being right.

Something else that I was reminded of while thinking about this topic is something that I picked up on a parenting forum. A lot of parents have a tendency to disagree with their kids or tell them no automatically. Somebody recommended coming up with a list of phrases to use so that you have more time to think about whether or not you want to say yes/no or agree/disagree.

Some of them include:

"Hmmm, I'll have to think about that."

"Interesting perspective. Would you expand on it a bit?"

"I had never quite thought about that way before."

I think Formfliers "Help me understand" would also be a phrase to put in the toolbox so to speak.

It is buying yourself some time to take a more mindful approach.

Vortex I think the setting or context plays a big part, there are definitely some settings and some people who are much more triggering to me.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it's really helpful to understand the feelings that underpin this behaviour. I agree that the need to be heard is a big one.

I come from a large family where being heard was difficult unless you were willing to jump in whenever there was a moment pause. Being heard was often more important than hearing someone else.

I think we expect to be heard and validated in a romantic relationship and it's understandable to feel insecure and defensive when those needs are not being met.

I remember an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where he and his wife went to parenting classes and were told to use some of those phrases. It might be sitcom but they seem to work for them  

Listening can be hard work, but being heard is a great gift to anyone

[Grey Kitty]

I have no problem sharing that this is a trigger for me today. I recognize it and manage. Getting to the avoidance part, I became obsessed with "knowing things" and learning because I never wanted to be put in the position to feel the shame of being proven wrong or feeling stupid. ":)on't make a fool of me" was a common thought for me.

Something my T said has stuck with me. "If you have a problem being wrong, you will always struggle." I fought back against that, I don't need to be right, but I did need to be right because it helped me avoid feeling that old shame that's been with me since childhood.

I think I took a very different path to standing in the same place that you found yourself.

I feel like I was rewarded for being right / smart / correct. (Especially by my mother) Kinda the opposite way of getting there you had. Anything I did in the way of becoming a little know-it-all as a kid... .I'm pretty sure I was encouraged/rewarded for it. Which isn't much better than being shamed for it, in the end.

... .my mom has the interesting habit of trying to be supportive/validating/kind and getting it just turned around. (For example, if I were to mention to her that I felt bad about not being productive and accomplishing what I wanted to do today, she would list the reasons why I deserved the time off/etc... .in effect, JADEing on my behalf... .which while trying to be supportive, actually invalidates the fact that I'm feeling crappy about what I didn't do!)

[livednlearned]

I have a teenager, so I'm never right 

even when I am.

GK, I'm curious about the superbowl moment you used as an example. It seems pretty common for fans to debate whether something is/isn't significant (or even happening), and that's part of the joy of watching.

It seems good that your wife could say, "Hey -- I feel x when you say y" as it is for you to say, "You know, I'm glad you said y. I actually had not thought of it like that."

Or whatever.

I can see how being wrong can equal shame like Suzn wrote. Or it can feel like being right = praise (I'm good/intelligent/lovable), like you said. But it's also about the way you handle it, no? The two of you. It's pretty common to have different opinions about things. In the moment where you wife points out you need to be right, how do you respond?

[Grey Kitty]

In the moment where you wife points out you need to be right, how do you respond?

Generally something like "Whups" or "Sorry", and backing down about it.

Looking back at my FOO, I think I can jump very easily to my dad's typical response (apologizing for being wrong) next.

Hmmmm... .perhaps I'm hanging out with people who are overly sensitive and cannot deal with that constructively. Or perhaps I scare those people off. (I dunno)

I generally don't dig in and try really really really hard to keep proving myself right.

[Crumbling]

Have you considered the possibility that after years and years of being with a pwBPD, you've come to a point where you automatically state your case and defend it before your wife can state otherwise?  :)o you do this with others, or just her?  Years of invalidation can really alter a person's persona.   Like Vortex said, perhaps it isn't being right that you seek, but being validated.  Not really needing to be right, but needing to be heard.

It would be nice to just be able to be yourself without being on alert all the time, I hear ya there!

Good self-evaluation topic, for sure!

[Crumbling]

I have a teenager, so I'm never right 

even when I am.

  How true!  How very true!

Be patient and strong, in a few more years, this too shall pass.   

My kids are in their twenties, and somehow, now, I'm right about everything, and always was.

My hubby would say, don't worry if they act like they don't hear you, they do.  It's in their brains once you've said what you need to say, and someday it will make sense to them, even if they reject it now.  In hindsight, he was right.  They actually get it now, where a few years ago, my words were 'destroying their worlds'!

 

[Grey Kitty]

I have a teenager, so I'm never right 

While we're on the lighter side... .

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

Yes, I am an engineer 

Perhaps my best approach is to not get carried away with being right, but not take this problem too seriously.

[Copperfox]

While we're on the lighter side... .

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

Yes, I am an engineer 

Perhaps my best approach is to not get carried away with being right, but not take this problem too seriously.

I happen to be scientist in real life, GK, so I have the same issue (and scientists may even be worse than engineers, honestly  )

I've had to come to terms with the fact that what I see as "intellectual discourse", most people view as arguing.  So I tend to reserve such discourse for when I'm around other scientists.  Around most others, I'm more "strategic" regarding what and how I communicate.

As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do ... .

[livednlearned]

Perhaps my best approach is to not get carried away with being right, but not take this problem too seriously.

Maybe it's also like knowing your audience? Like Copperfox is saying. My S13 is in a social skills class, and the social worker leading the group is trying to teach them about "risky" humor and knowing when/who to joke the way they do.

S13 knows that there is humor I can't run with, so he's learning (from another adult thank the lord) that he has to moderate his style. Sometimes he will slip and then say apologize, "Sorry, wrong audience."

Being right about the Superbowl thing with your wife is tricky because of who it is plus when and what it is.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I think you nailed it on knowing my audience. My wife is particularly sensitive to that, especially from me. Tough audience.

And I have to admit... .there is a real sense of debating that engineers/scientists really JAM on and have fun with. I can really get lost in this, and really enjoy it. (The pig likes it) The response I get varies a LOT, from quietly unreceptive to getting worked up and upset, to getting into it with me.

As you say, humor is like that. I am very comfortable with rather blunt humor and language... .[I am a sailor as well as an engineer!]... .and quite aware that it flies much better in some environments than others. I'm a lot older than 13, and seldom tell jokes for the wrong audience now.