Borderlines and shifting sexuality / asexuality

[goateeki]

I am wondering if others have had an experience similar to mine when it comes to sexuality.  

In brief -- dBPD ex wife has history of trauma; mother abandoned family when she was approx. 11 y/o, at about 14 there was a pregnancy and an abortion, and at about 22 there was an attack and rape (tied up, taped up, raped for hours at knifepoint).  There were other events, too -- father was arrested and lost his job, and mother was possibly arrested during her period of abandonment when she burglarized the house and stole a family car.  

Sex was literally NEVER initiated by dBPD ex wife; perhaps unsurprisingly.  She alternated between very brief periods of vaginismus (strong contracture of the vagina, making sex impossible) and multiple orgasms.  

Relationship collapsed in a fit when I state in writing that I needed to feel like I was wanted and valued in her life (discussion of the relationship was impossible, totally shut down, claimed that she "couldn't speak about things the way can", never a kind word, compliment, and every hug I received in 20 years was one I requested).

There was much, much dysregulated emotion after that.  If what preceded it was a constant 3.5 on the Richter scale, what happened after I made my needs known was a 5.0.  

During this phase, she made statements to me like "Sex was the worst part of our marriage, I always hated it." "I never felt anything for you." She began to suggest that she did not trust and was not attracted to men, and I asked her if she was attracted to women. After not answering for a period of time, she said "What if I am that way?" She then shifted to "Of course I am attracted to men." And then it was "I should never have got married, I did not know what I was doing."  And then it became "I should have been a nun."

I should add that there was a series of VERY intense relationships with women.  One ended when the other woman literally could not take my dBPD ex wife's neediness anymore, and stopped it cold.  Of course, this left dBPD ex wife devastated for days, maybe more.  

I do not know how an adult can have two children, reach her 40's, and then be having difficulties with major personality issues like this.  It is baffling to me.  

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.  

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[ShadowIntheNight]

I am wondering if others have had an experience similar to mine when it comes to sexuality. 

In brief -- dBPD ex wife has history of trauma; mother abandoned family when she was approx. 11 y/o, at about 14 there was a pregnancy and an abortion, and at about 22 there was an attack and rape (tied up, taped up, raped for hours at knifepoint).  There were other events, too -- father was arrested and lost his job, and mother was possibly arrested during her period of abandonment when she burglarized the house and stole a family car. 

Sex was literally NEVER initiated by dBPD ex wife; perhaps unsurprisingly.  She alternated between very brief periods of vaginismus (strong contracture of the vagina, making sex impossible) and multiple orgasms. 

Relationship collapsed in a fit when I state in writing that I needed to feel like I was wanted and valued in her life (discussion of the relationship was impossible, totally shut down, claimed that she "couldn't speak about things the way can", never a kind word, compliment, and every hug I received in 20 years was one I requested).

There was much, much dysregulated emotion after that.  If what preceded it was a constant 3.5 on the Richter scale, what happened after I made my needs known was a 5.0. 

During this phase, she made statements to me like "Sex was the worst part of our marriage, I always hated it." "I never felt anything for you." She began to suggest that she did not trust and was not attracted to men, and I asked her if she was attracted to women. After not answering for a period of time, she said "What if I am that way?" She then shifted to "Of course I am attracted to men." And then it was "I should never have got married, I did not know what I was doing."  And then it became "I should have been a nun."

I should add that there was a series of VERY intense relationships with women.  One ended when the other woman literally could not take my dBPD ex wife's neediness anymore, and stopped it cold.  Of course, this left dBPD ex wife devastated for days, maybe more.   

I do not know how an adult can have two children, reach her 40's, and then be having difficulties with major personality issues like this.  It is baffling to me. 

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.   

Well let me give this go. My uBPDexgf and I were together in a lesbian relat for 9.5 yrs. Prior to that she was married for 10 yrs. To a man. They had 2 children together. According to her she knew that since she was in high school (in the mid 80s) that she was probably gay. Her first serious crush in high school was on her female PE teacher.  Natch. Last summer, after going thru a 2.5 yr custody battle with her exH (them divorced and him remarried for 4 yrs) she sends me a note in a birthday card telling me she has been dating men and ended our long term relationship.

According to her, prior to her going back into the closet, she never wanted to marry originally,  only got married because she was supposed to, and told herself she should have been a nun too. She also said that she couldn't be the only daughter in an Hispanic family and be a lesbian. Apparently that's the rule if you're the only daughter in an Hispanic family. But I am just kidding about that last sentence.

She is 46 and is a therapist. She is not a stupid person intellectually and in her job counsels young adults about being true to themselves. This woman hasn't "become" straight again. She is afraid. And my guess is that it is somehow tied to her mother whom I determined is a controlling so&so and makes her 46 daughter act the way she wants her to act. Last January my exgf informed me that her mother had asked if I was gay. I'm sure it was because her daughter and I travelled and spent far more time than her mother ever knew in our nearly decades long relationship. That's when my exgf intially began her distancing. The results of the court case merely set it off.

There are many instances of women and men who get married because of societal pressures. I wonder if you wife may be Catholic for her to mention being a nun. I have nothing against religion, I am a pretty devout Christian. However many religions make statements and have dogma that can cause a gay or lesbian to hide who they are, and even get married just so they can push down their sexuality.

I don't know if your wife is gay or not. Even she may not know for sure. But if she is, it doesn't necessarily mean she is BPD unless that was diagnosed by a professional. I do know that my 46 yo exgf is gay. She knows she is gay, and I am sure there are others in her social circle that know it too. The sad thing is that whomever this guy is she is seeing, he's the one set for hurt. Cause she's lying to him and to herself because she's afraid.

[ShadowIntheNight]

Goateeki, missed that ur wife is a dBPD. Still being gay or lesbian doesn't mean that a person is BPD. One of the criteria is that there are issues about their sexuality.

[vortex of confusion]

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.   

If you read through some of the different forums (staying and undecided and even here), you will see that lots of people have had to deal with a partner that seemed to have problems with sexuality.

I am still with my husband but there has been a lot of weirdness surrounding sexuality. About a year and a half ago (after 15 years of marriage), he told me that he thought he was bisexual and wanted to experiment. I knew that he had experimented a tiny bit in college and had some doubts when he was younger but I was under the impression that he had answered that question already. I didn't really think much about it as he is a sex addict and most of the porn that he viewed was of females and stuff like that. So, it was a HUGE shock to me that he says, "Oh, by the way, I am bisexual and want to experiment with men." I was, "Okay." So he experimented with a guy but was too scared to do it alone. Anyway, after that, he goes back to saying that he is straight and that he isn't interested in guys, blah, blah, blah. During his questioning phase, he told our friends that he would rather be, um, with a guy than anything else (not going to repeat what was actually said but it was very crude). It was kind of hurtful to hear him say some of the things that he said during that time.

I have no problems with any kind of sexuality. The problem that I had was that he acted like we meant nothing. It was crazy to have had 4 kids with him and then have him say all of that stuff. He got out of that phase as suddenly and quickly as he went in it. It was perplexing to say the least. And then, there were other times when he had ED but even that was unpredictable. I never knew what I was going to get. He would say that things weren't exciting enough so I tried to spice things up. Then, it was TOO spicy and he accused ME of being a sex addict. Never did figure that one out.

All of that is to say that you are NOT alone! Stick around and you will hear all kinds of stories.

[raisins3142]

Mine uBPDexgf said she wasn't usually physically attracted to men, only women, but that she could only be in a relationship with a man (assuming due to the need to be submissive and her daddy issues).  This really messed with my head.

She admitted to sex with women on 2 occasions, but I'm guessing it was more common than that.

She also told me I was the first man she could perform sexually with and orgasm while sober.  But she also faked orgasms with me and lied about it.

Turns out, she often had decent physical relationships, but they always changed and eventually LTR she became asexual or had dysfunction.

Despite that, she spoke of one night stands, casual sex, and friends with benefits set ups.

I'm also relatively certain that she had periods of promiscuity.

In bed, she wanted to be totally dominated and if I attempted any gentle love making she stop responding.  She would never keep her eyes open or really connect with me.  She had no boundaries and I'm pretty sure that she would be into being humiliated or used by groups of men.  I'm relatively sure she had sex for drugs while hooked on MDMA as she dated her dealer.

She loved watching gladiator movies and shows with large, muscular men.

She would not share many fantasies, but one involved a telepathic cat that had sex with women in a book she read (weird).

Basically, she was not like any woman that I have been with, and not in a good way.

No way to know where she was really at in all this or what was real.

Habitual liar.  Filled with intense shame, especially around sex.

[bruceli]

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.   

If you read through some of the different forums (staying and undecided and even here), you will see that lots of people have had to deal with a partner that seemed to have problems with sexuality.

I am still with my husband but there has been a lot of weirdness surrounding sexuality. About a year and a half ago (after 15 years of marriage), he told me that he thought he was bisexual and wanted to experiment. I knew that he had experimented a tiny bit in college and had some doubts when he was younger but I was under the impression that he had answered that question already. I didn't really think much about it as he is a sex addict and most of the porn that he viewed was of females and stuff like that. So, it was a HUGE shock to me that he says, "Oh, by the way, I am bisexual and want to experiment with men." I was, "Okay." So he experimented with a guy but was too scared to do it alone. Anyway, after that, he goes back to saying that he is straight and that he isn't interested in guys, blah, blah, blah. During his questioning phase, he told our friends that he would rather be, um, with a guy than anything else (not going to repeat what was actually said but it was very crude). It was kind of hurtful to hear him say some of the things that he said during that time.

I have no problems with any kind of sexuality. The problem that I had was that he acted like we meant nothing. It was crazy to have had 4 kids with him and then have him say all of that stuff. He got out of that phase as suddenly and quickly as he went in it. It was perplexing to say the least. And then, there were other times when he had ED but even that was unpredictable. I never knew what I was going to get. He would say that things weren't exciting enough so I tried to spice things up. Then, it was TOO spicy and he accused ME of being a sex addict. Never did figure that one out.

All of that is to say that you are NOT alone! Stick around and you will hear all kinds of stories.

Same with my pwPD. She claims that she is "soo bisexual", I am yet to see this side of her.  My feelings in this arena for some is that they use it for shock value and to bait to see if they can get a rise out of us.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.   

If you read through some of the different forums (staying and undecided and even here), you will see that lots of people have had to deal with a partner that seemed to have problems with sexuality.

I am still with my husband but there has been a lot of weirdness surrounding sexuality. About a year and a half ago (after 15 years of marriage), he told me that he thought he was bisexual and wanted to experiment. I knew that he had experimented a tiny bit in college and had some doubts when he was younger but I was under the impression that he had answered that question already. I didn't really think much about it as he is a sex addict and most of the porn that he viewed was of females and stuff like that. So, it was a HUGE shock to me that he says, "Oh, by the way, I am bisexual and want to experiment with men." I was, "Okay." So he experimented with a guy but was too scared to do it alone. Anyway, after that, he goes back to saying that he is straight and that he isn't interested in guys, blah, blah, blah. During his questioning phase, he told our friends that he would rather be, um, with a guy than anything else (not going to repeat what was actually said but it was very crude). It was kind of hurtful to hear him say some of the things that he said during that time.

I have no problems with any kind of sexuality. The problem that I had was that he acted like we meant nothing. It was crazy to have had 4 kids with him and then have him say all of that stuff. He got out of that phase as suddenly and quickly as he went in it. It was perplexing to say the least. And then, there were other times when he had ED but even that was unpredictable. I never knew what I was going to get. He would say that things weren't exciting enough so I tried to spice things up. Then, it was TOO spicy and he accused ME of being a sex addict. Never did figure that one out.

All of that is to say that you are NOT alone! Stick around and you will hear all kinds of stories.

Same with my pwPD. She claims that she is "soo bisexual", I am yet to see this side of her.  My feelings in this arena for some is that they use it for shock value and to bait to see if they can get a rise out of us.

That or if they turn and leave you for someone of the same sex they can say, "I told you!"

[goateeki]

In bed, she wanted to be totally dominated and if I attempted any gentle love making she stop responding.  She would never keep her eyes open or really connect with me.  She had no boundaries and I'm pretty sure that she would be into being humiliated or used by groups of men.  I'm relatively sure she had sex for drugs while hooked on MDMA as she dated her dealer.

She would never make eye contact with me, either.  I would try to speak to her about it and how it made me feel almost uncomfortable (she was the only woman out of a healthy number who refused eye contact during sex -- in my life, almost all seemed to need and want this).  I actually emailed her about it once, and how important it seemed to me to be for intimacy, and still, nothing. 

There is something unjust about putting in almost 20 years with a person like this.  I am responsible for it; I made the decision to stay, for too long.  But how unjust.

[vortex of confusion]

She would never make eye contact with me, either.  I would try to speak to her about it and how it made me feel almost uncomfortable (she was the only woman out of a healthy number who refused eye contact during sex -- in my life, almost all seemed to need and want this).  I actually emailed her about it once, and how important it seemed to me to be for intimacy, and still, nothing. 

There is something unjust about putting in almost 20 years with a person like this.  I am responsible for it; I made the decision to stay, for too long.  But how unjust.

The lack of eye contact is probably about a fear of intimacy. If she was sexually abused, it could be sexual anorexia related to trauma that she has never dealt with. Here is an interesting read on it: www.posarc.com/partners/sexual-anorexia

If you are like me, you put up with it because sex wasn't the most important thing to you. I know that I would be really frustrated (sexually) but would push it aside because there are more important things in life than sex. It is unjust but at the same time leaving somebody because they have sexual issues doesn't seem fair either. The truth is that it really doesn't have much to do with sex but is more about being afraid of intimacy. (At least that is my opinion.)

[hergestridge]

I do not know how an adult can have two children, reach her 40's, and then be having difficulties with major personality issues like this.  It is baffling to me.  

I suppose I'd feel better (or less shocked) if others had similar experiences, but to me, questioning such basic things, and claiming, in essence, that one has spent her entire adult life doing things that she never wanted to do... .to me this is like questioning whether one is a human male who is attracted to women.  I have never experienced a hint of doubt about any of these things.  It's very difficult to understand.  

It is hard to fully grasp that "... .profound lack of sense of self" that is at the core of the illness.

At first I thought of it as an ever changing self, but that is misleading. It is weak, vague self.

What I did with my wife was in essence dragging her around for twenty years like a bored teenager on vacation with her dad. Bored, participating half against her will, having no suggestions on her own.

Then she'd meet someone she'd admire and want to be like that person a lot. Started dressing like that and behaving like that person. If she'd meet a charming bisexual person she would be a potential bisexual. When she'd lost interest in that person she would also lose the bisexuality.

There isn't much of a "self" behind that mask at all.

[goateeki]

What I did with my wife was in essence dragging her around for twenty years like a bored teenager on vacation with her dad. Bored, participating half against her will, having no suggestions on her own.

Then she'd meet someone she'd admire and want to be like that person a lot. Started dressing like that and behaving like that person. If she'd meet a charming bisexual person she would be a potential bisexual. When she'd lost interest in that person she would also lose the bisexuality.

Hergestridge, this nails it.  This is one of the best descriptions of the dynamic I have ever seen.  I don't know if you've seen my other posts but she has twice attached herself to other women with such intensity that the first one cut things off cold with her (while her husband told me that the relationship was interfering with his marriage) and the second -- well, the second she is with to this day, with at least four people observing that the two behave like a couple.  Also, that woman's (the second woman's) husband has contacted me multiple times to tell me that my dBPDxw is interfering with his marriage and that he does not want her in his house.

In both situations she declared that the other woman understood her like no other human being ever had, that they would be together forever... .this is sheer insanity.  This is how 12 year old girls speak. 

[raisins3142]

If you are like me, you put up with it because sex wasn't the most important thing to you. I know that I would be really frustrated (sexually) but would push it aside because there are more important things in life than sex. It is unjust but at the same time leaving somebody because they have sexual issues doesn't seem fair either. The truth is that it really doesn't have much to do with sex but is more about being afraid of intimacy. (At least that is my opinion.)

Okay, I don't view what I want in a relationship in terms of "fairness", necessarily.

When I'm deciding what you value and want in a relationship, "fair" doesn't enter it so much for me because I value what I value and so long as it is not a "bad" value, then it simply exists.  For instance, it is not "fair" to short men that women prefer taller men.  Just as it is not fair to the sexually dysfunctional that people want to avoid them.  I have one life.  I'm not planning to spend it sexually frustrated due to being a martyr for someone else with an issue.

For instance, mine fake orgasms and then lied about doing so.  Early on, that alone is enough to make me leave someone.  I won't live like that.

[vortex of confusion]

When I'm deciding what you value and want in a relationship, "fair" doesn't enter it so much for me because I value what I value and so long as it is not a "bad" value, then it simply exists.  For instance, it is not "fair" to short men that women prefer taller men.  Just as it is not fair to the sexually dysfunctional that people want to avoid them.  I have one life.  I'm not planning to spend it sexually frustrated due to being a martyr for someone else with an issue.

For instance, mine fake orgasms and then lied about doing so.  Early on, that alone is enough to make me leave someone.  I won't live like that.

I wasn't being a martyr. My husband had a lot of other good qualities. I wanted a life partner that I could raise kids with and share my life with. Yes, sex is important but it isn't the be all end all in a relationship. Relationships have frustrations. That is normal. The question is how much frustration can a person realistically live with at any given time.

Occasionally faking an orgasm isn't a big deal. When it becomes a big deal is when it becomes a pervasive pattern. All of the materials that I have read about BPD say that a lot of the characteristics found in people with BPD are pretty common in the general population. It qualifies as BPD (or something else) when it becomes a pervasive pattern of behavior.

[goateeki]

If you are like me, you put up with it because sex wasn't the most important thing to you. I know that I would be really frustrated (sexually) but would push it aside because there are more important things in life than sex. It is unjust but at the same time leaving somebody because they have sexual issues doesn't seem fair either. The truth is that it really doesn't have much to do with sex but is more about being afraid of intimacy. (At least that is my opinion.)

Okay, I don't view what I want in a relationship in terms of "fairness", necessarily.

When I'm deciding what you value and want in a relationship, "fair" doesn't enter it so much for me because I value what I value and so long as it is not a "bad" value, then it simply exists.  For instance, it is not "fair" to short men that women prefer taller men.  Just as it is not fair to the sexually dysfunctional that people want to avoid them.  I have one life.  I'm not planning to spend it sexually frustrated due to being a martyr for someone else with an issue.

For instance, mine fake orgasms and then lied about doing so.  Early on, that alone is enough to make me leave someone.  I won't live like that.

raisins, you're a pretty self aware person.  I tip my hat to you.  I'm happy that there are people who can be objective about these things, and while I in no way feel superior to people who struggle for years on whether or not to leave (I can't because I was one of them), I do find myself sometimes wishing I could pull people out of indecision. I guess I feel that way only because I was finally able to make the decision.  You strike me as someone who can think clearly about these things, and that's admirable.   

[raisins3142]

When I'm deciding what you value and want in a relationship, "fair" doesn't enter it so much for me because I value what I value and so long as it is not a "bad" value, then it simply exists.  For instance, it is not "fair" to short men that women prefer taller men.  Just as it is not fair to the sexually dysfunctional that people want to avoid them.  I have one life.  I'm not planning to spend it sexually frustrated due to being a martyr for someone else with an issue.

For instance, mine fake orgasms and then lied about doing so.  Early on, that alone is enough to make me leave someone.  I won't live like that.

I wasn't being a martyr. My husband had a lot of other good qualities. I wanted a life partner that I could raise kids with and share my life with. Yes, sex is important but it isn't the be all end all in a relationship. Relationships have frustrations. That is normal. The question is how much frustration can a person realistically live with at any given time.

Occasionally faking an orgasm isn't a big deal. When it becomes a big deal is when it becomes a pervasive pattern. All of the materials that I have read about BPD say that a lot of the characteristics found in people with BPD are pretty common in the general population. It qualifies as BPD (or something else) when it becomes a pervasive pattern of behavior.

I wasn't talking about your specific situation.  I was talking about myself, how I view things, and perhaps a way to view things in the general case.

I know nothing about your situation in order to really have an opinion on a specific case.  You'll notice I spoke of my situation mostly.

But I disagree, and this may just be a guy thing, but faking orgasms is lying.  It is not okay.  Just as it is not okay to lie to your partner.  Again, maybe I should add "not okay for me".  I won't put up with that.  But again, I'm not attacking or judging you, just stating an opinion as you have as well.  We simply don't agree with each other on some of these points.

And those BPD traits that are common in the population are bad traits, for the most part.