I think I am ready to leave, but am I really?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I normally post on the staying board but I am finding it harder and harder to stay. I thought I could deal with the rages, silent treatments, and whatever else my BPDbf of 2.5 years can throw at me. I was using all the tools I have learned through this site and I was successful in many situations. After a rough week, I think I have changed my mind.

I understand that I will never get any emotional support from him when I need it in difficult times, but what he said to me during this family crisis I was dealing with was completely uncalled for. After a few days of me cooling off from his horrid rant during my difficult time, I finally told him how I felt about what he said and how it made me feel hurt. That was a mistake because he raged on me again and made it very clear that he is not sorry and will not apologize for it and doesn't care how I feel about it.

I want to leave. He crossed a line with me. I am angry. The problem is there is this part of me that wants to just let it go like I have always done before. There is the part of me that wants to stay. There is always that little part of me that I just want to go away. That little part of me started out much bigger. Over the past year or more it has gotten smaller and smaller. Why won't that tiny bit that's left just disappear?

We have no kids, we are not married. It should be so easy to just walk away. Why can't I just take that step? All I need to do is go get that apartment and sign the lease. Then it's done, it's over. Once I am out and don't have to see him or deal with him, it should be easy.

It's just that tiny little part and that big step that is holding me back. I pray every day for the strength to overcome these things holding me back. I still don't have the strength.

[BadKitty]

I normally post on the staying board but I am finding it harder and harder to stay. I thought I could deal with the rages, silent treatments, and whatever else my BPDbf of 2.5 years can throw at me. I was using all the tools I have learned through this site and I was successful in many situations. After a rough week, I think I have changed my mind.

I understand that I will never get any emotional support from him when I need it in difficult times, but what he said to me during this family crisis I was dealing with was completely uncalled for. After a few days of me cooling off from his horrid rant during my difficult time, I finally told him how I felt about what he said and how it made me feel hurt. That was a mistake because he raged on me again and made it very clear that he is not sorry and will not apologize for it and doesn't care how I feel about it.

I want to leave. He crossed a line with me. I am angry. The problem is there is this part of me that wants to just let it go like I have always done before. There is the part of me that wants to stay. There is always that little part of me that I just want to go away. That little part of me started out much bigger. Over the past year or more it has gotten smaller and smaller. Why won't that tiny bit that's left just disappear?

We have no kids, we are not married. It should be so easy to just walk away. Why can't I just take that step? All I need to do is go get that apartment and sign the lease. Then it's done, it's over. Once I am out and don't have to see him or deal with him, it should be easy.

It's just that tiny little part and that big step that is holding me back. I pray every day for the strength to overcome these things holding me back. I still don't have the strength.

[ImGoingCrazy]

i so feel uuu... .

instead for me its been 4 months in the relationship , but i want to leave , and it is in fackt soo difficult to leave ! i have tried 4 times and i failed !

[BadKitty]

I have been so close to leaving many times. What stops me is when he asks me to stay and apologizes for his behavior.  This cycle has happened over and over again. I just want it to stop. It has to stop and I have to be the one to stop it. It is so hard.  I don't know why. It's because I love and care for him. I keep thinking maybe I could help him.  I have realized I cannot. It will always be this way.

[Loosestrife]

This describes how I feel. The staying part of me has got less and less but there is still something inside me that loves this person who has hit me, spat at me and called me awful things. I gave gone back countless times. This time I want to do it for good. I am not the problem nor am I the solution - the opposite in fact. im taking back my dignity and going to recreate my own happiness. If in 2 years time they show up at my door 'fully recovered' then I will eat my socks! Be brave and reclaim your life and happiness back - you only live once

[ImGoingCrazy]

i know ive been there ... .the same happened to me ... .

i know u still care , im in the same situation , it is normal to be attached to this person .

but we have to leave , we cant help ... .

plan your future differently .

Just him can help hisself , by doing therapy... .

we dont have to sacrifice our menatl health and life for others , this is not fair !

i really wish u find the courage to do it  

i feel hopeless and sad about him , still didnt found the ``right time`` to do it

[going places]

Three long, horrifying years AFTER the ex's mask fell off on our 20 YEAR wedding anniversary.

Three gut wrenching, emotionally abusive, mentally draining, soul sucking years.

I was on the brink of self destruction.

I filed for divorce in July 2013. Caved just days before it was final... .

October 2013-April 2014 nothing changed... .IT WAS NEVER GOING TO CHANGE.

April 2014 I filed.

June 2014 it was final.

July 2014 I threw him out.

Aug 2014 I blocked ALL communications w him (except email; we were selling the home and had to communicate)

The last time I saw him was July, 2014.

September 2014, I started to heal.

No more walking on eggshells. No more clenching my teeth and tensing my back as I drove up the drive way.

No move feeling worthless, stupid, dirty.

No more 'silent treatment' or 'gaslighting'.

I could breathe.

I was healing.

Wait a minute... .LIFE is amazing!

I am working on healing me. Cleaning out the 'closet' of junk in my mind and heart, and becoming a healthy woman. The air up here is amazing.

It's worth it to take the first step, followed by the second, and the third; forth, fifth, sixth, and by the seventh, you are in a full sprint!

[jhkbuzz]

We have no kids, we are not married. It should be so easy to just walk away. Why can't I just take that step? All I need to do is go get that apartment and sign the lease. Then it's done, it's over. Once I am out and don't have to see him or deal with him, it should be easy. It's just that tiny little part and that big step that is holding me back. I pray every day for the strength to overcome these things holding me back. I still don't have the strength.

"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."  (Jack Canfield).

What are you afraid of?  There is something that keeps you from making the decision you know you need to make.

Name your fears; make a list, post them here.

Let's examine them.

[BadKitty]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Thanks going places, for sharing your story. I know I am not alone here.

Name your fears; make a list, post them here.

Let's examine them.

This is tough and it took me a bit to actually think about it. I think this may have been part of your intentions, to make me actually realize what it is I am afraid of. I have come up with a few things. Some of these things I have already examined myself.

1. I am afraid of feeling lonely without him. - I am lonely with him in my life already as he isn't available to me when I need emotional support of any kind. He is only around when HE is lonely. Other than that he will disappear to be by himself.

2. I am afraid that I am making the wrong decision and will miss him so much and never be able to get him back after I leave. - I shouldn't even be afraid of this since the point is to leave and not come back.

3. I am afraid he will find someone new. - This one really makes no sense because I do just want him to be happy, even if that means being with someone else. I see him struggle everyday with his emotions and I don't think anyone or anything could make him happy but being alone.

4. I am terrified of leaving and him trying to contact me and I fall for it again, repeating the cycle, I know it will never change.

5. I think I am just afraid of change. It's more comfortable just to stay with him.

I am 35 years old and this is the second man I've loved. Maybe I am afraid of never finding anyone to love again, but to be honest, I am a loner and would be perfectly fine alone. It's just the feeling of loving someone that brings so much happiness.

[jhkbuzz]

1. I am afraid of feeling lonely without him. - I am lonely with him in my life already as he isn't available to me when I need emotional support of any kind. He is only around when HE is lonely. Other than that he will disappear to be by himself.

I struggled with this one for YEARS. Trust me, you will only become more unhappy and more lonely as time goes on.  For me, being lonely in a r/s with someone was WAY more torturous than feeling occasionally lonely now that I'm single.  I think it's because I know that I'm now in a life circumstance which allows for the possibility of meeting someone and having another r/s. Before this it was just despair because I was lonely and I knew it wasn't going to change within the r/s that I was in.

2. I am afraid that I am making the wrong decision and will miss him so much and never be able to get him back after I leave.

I'm intimately acquainted with this one as well. The truth is you know you'll be making the RIGHT decision, but you also know you will miss him at times. You'll push through the "missing him" and build a new life for yourself.  One that's filled with possibilities, not fear and anxiety.

3. I am afraid he will find someone new. - This one really makes no sense because I do just want him to be happy, even if that means being with someone else. I see him struggle everyday with his emotions and I don't think anyone or anything could make him happy but being alone.

Well, you're a better person than I because I had this fear and I still don't want her to find anyone new !

4. I am terrified of leaving and him trying to contact me and I fall for it again, repeating the cycle, I know it will never change.

You will have to make solid plans about how you will draw your boundaries and keep them in place.  Enlist other people to help if you need to.

5. I think I am just afraid of change. It's more comfortable just to stay with him.

Yup, I understand.  But you're miserable, right?  Are you willing to be miserable for the next 1, 5, 10 or 20 years?

I am 35 years old and this is the second man I've loved. Maybe I am afraid of never finding anyone to love again, but to be honest, I am a loner and would be perfectly fine alone. It's just the feeling of loving someone that brings so much happiness.

I think we ALL have this fear at the end of a r/s, whether with a pwBPD or not.  There are lots and lots of people out there... .don't give up hope![/quote]

[BadKitty]

Thank you for that jhkbuzz.

I am having the hardest time tonight. We live together in a small one bedroom apartment. I have been on the couch all week. I have been staying separated from him as much as possible while we are here together. Yesterday it was the bedroom, tonight the living room. He will come around and sit down close to me. Try to spark up a conversation sometimes. I think he is testing the waters with me. I am trying to detach. I don't want to talk to him so I keep the conversation to a minimum and continue to sleep on the couch.

This is how the cycle starts over. He tries to be nice and friendly, then affectionate, then when he's realized he has pushed me away, he gets pouty and sometimes cries, tells me he's sorry. He tells me he has a problem. I feel sorry for him and all the love I have tried so hard to hide from him comes rushing out. It's ok, I say to him... .but it's not. And he knows it's not too, he admits to that. He admits to breaking up with me and telling me to leave, to get out, is because he doesn't want to put me through that anymore.

I have already made it clear to him that once I move out, there will me not contact whatsoever between us, not ever again. It's the only way I can forget and move on. I love him so much and he has ripped my heart out again and again.

I have to break the cycle. It's up to me.

I just need the strength to make the change.

[jhkbuzz]

Thank you for that jhkbuzz.

I am having the hardest time tonight. We live together in a small one bedroom apartment. I have been on the couch all week. I have been staying separated from him as much as possible while we are here together. Yesterday it was the bedroom, tonight the living room. He will come around and sit down close to me. Try to spark up a conversation sometimes. I think he is testing the waters with me. I am trying to detach. I don't want to talk to him so I keep the conversation to a minimum and continue to sleep on the couch.

This is how the cycle starts over. He tries to be nice and friendly, then affectionate, then when he's realized he has pushed me away, he gets pouty and sometimes cries, tells me he's sorry. He tells me he has a problem. I feel sorry for him and all the love I have tried so hard to hide from him comes rushing out. It's ok, I say to him... .but it's not. And he knows it's not too, he admits to that. He admits to breaking up with me and telling me to leave, to get out, is because he doesn't want to put me through that anymore.

I have already made it clear to him that once I move out, there will me not contact whatsoever between us, not ever again. It's the only way I can forget and move on. I love him so much and he has ripped my heart out again and again.

I have to break the cycle. It's up to me.

I just need the strength to make the change.

These are the things you need to keep in mind:


He is not powerless.  His case is not hopeless.

He has the power to change his own life - you can't do that for him.

He has to make the decision to get help - you can't do that for him.

He can decide at any moment to get into therapy and address his issues - but he's refused to.

You've done everything you can.

Perhaps your leaving will be the motivation he needs. 

Either way, there's nothing else you can do for him.  He is a grown man who needs to make some decisions about his own life.

And you have to make decisions that are best for you.

Anything else at this point smacks of codependency and enmeshment.

[going places]

1. I am afraid of feeling lonely without him. - I am lonely with him in my life already as he isn't available to me when I need emotional support of any kind. He is only around when HE is lonely. Other than that he will disappear to be by himself.

So was I.

Then I remembered; He was only "there" for himself. It was NEVER a 2 way relationship.

I don't "need" someone to complete me.

My goal is to start my own business... .and that's gonna keep me hoppin' busy.

I have kids that still live with me.

I have 2 little dogs.

The ex emotionally DRAINED me... .he was never 'there' for me... .and it is better for me to be alone than in a relationship w him.

2. I am afraid that I am making the wrong decision and will miss him so much and never be able to get him back after I leave. - I shouldn't even be afraid of this since the point is to leave and not come back.

So was I.

I filed for divorce a total of 3 times.

All 3 times he couldn't wait to sign the papers... .

He never worked on the marriage. He was the ":)ead Sea". Always taking, never giving.

The last time I saw him was July 2014. By October... .I never wanted to see him again.

It is healing, purifying; and peaceful not having him in my life.

At first, I thought I might die... .but... .like heroin once you "kick" it... .you realize JUST HOW BAD it was for you.

3. I am afraid he will find someone new. - This one really makes no sense because I do just want him to be happy, even if that means being with someone else. I see him struggle everyday with his emotions and I don't think anyone or anything could make him happy but being alone.

So was I.

My ex actually used to 'scare' me with this.

I wanted to separate (not divorce) and all of us (kids included) go see a T to get things straight individually and then a marriage T for us. He would say "well how long will that take... .I might not be able to wait".

WELL DUH THERE WAS MY ANSWER... .but noo I let him scare me and manipulate me into not separating and him continue to abuse me.

My heart breaks for his next victim. I feel bad for the woman he had an affair with. She had no idea what a piece of work he is. Ultimately, I don't care WHO he's with, or what he does. I simply don't care anymore.

It took me 6 months of NO CONTACT to get to this place. I could have NEVER gotten here had I allowed him to live in the house till it sold or continued to talk / text with him.

I AM SO glad, he no longer controls me.

4. I am terrified of leaving and him trying to contact me and I fall for it again, repeating the cycle, I know it will never change.

So was I.

And I did.

Several times.

In 1996, I 'shut my mouth' and just gave him whatever he wanted so the abuse would stop.

In 2011 when his mask fell off... .it almost killed me.

In early 2014, I realized this: I lost me. I didn't know who I was. My KIDS DIDN'T LIKE ME; didn't want to be around me... .the darkness that surrounded me could be 'felt' it was so thick.

That's when I started seeking help to find out what's wrong with "me"... .only to find out; it's not me.

I see an abuse advocate. I read on line. I read medical, text, and books written by doctors. Psychology, Abnormal Psychology, etc. I prayed and prayed and prayed (and I still do).

And thru a local 'abused women's shelter's' weekly meetings, and seeing an advocate one on one... .

I came out of the lie. Cause that is what it was. A big, fat, lie.

The ex, will NEVER change.

I'm no longer his whipping post.

And it's amazing.

5. I think I am just afraid of change. It's more comfortable just to stay with him.

So was I.

4k sq ft home to a 1k sq ft apartment.

COMPLETE lifestyle change.

No longer a wife, now, just an 'ex'.

You know what?

It's worth it. To be away from the abuse and tyranny? Any struggle I may have before me is worth it.

25 years of marriage, down the toilet... .just wish I would have had the galls to do it in 1996. Then it would have only been 7 years wasted.

I am 35 years old and this is the second man I've loved. Maybe I am afraid of never finding anyone to love again, but to be honest, I am a loner and would be perfectly fine alone. It's just the feeling of loving someone that brings so much happiness.

I am almost 50.

I spent 25 years of my life with my ex. WASTED years of my life with him.

At almost 50 I am gonna do some 'drastic' changes.

Move from Indiana to Florida (this summer)

Open my own business.

I am going to smile, love life, enjoy the air, be positive, volunteer, give, love, laugh.

My ex stole so many years from me... .I am going to make the most of the years I have left.

Don't waste your life. You only have one, and you don't know when your number is up!

[ImGoingCrazy]

Thank you for that jhkbuzz.

I am having the hardest time tonight. We live together in a small one bedroom apartment. I have been on the couch all week. I have been staying separated from him as much as possible while we are here together. Yesterday it was the bedroom, tonight the living room. He will come around and sit down close to me. Try to spark up a conversation sometimes. I think he is testing the waters with me. I am trying to detach. I don't want to talk to him so I keep the conversation to a minimum and continue to sleep on the couch.

This is how the cycle starts over. He tries to be nice and friendly, then affectionate, then when he's realized he has pushed me away, he gets pouty and sometimes cries, tells me he's sorry. He tells me he has a problem. I feel sorry for him and all the love I have tried so hard to hide from him comes rushing out. It's ok, I say to him... .but it's not. And he knows it's not too, he admits to that. He admits to breaking up with me and telling me to leave, to get out, is because he doesn't want to put me through that anymore.

I have already made it clear to him that once I move out, there will me not contact whatsoever between us, not ever again. It's the only way I can forget and move on. I love him so much and he has ripped my heart out again and again.

I have to break the cycle. It's up to me.

I just need the strength to make the change.

wow , how is it possible that it is exactly just like my case :/

he knows he has a problem but still wont let go... .people say they cant really love , but in fact i sometimes feel it ... .but anyways , there is no happy future with them  

i dont know about u , but i feel so limited ... .i always have to worry how he is going to react in every kind of situation and thats soo stressful to me ... .they are not the easiest people ever :/ ... .

[Recooperating]

A very familiar situation. I was on and off for 14 years with my dBPDexbf. I always went back to him. He said he was sorry, said he was a changed man... .that lasted a couple of months and then the whole abusive crap would start again.

It wasnt untill I really looked at me untill I realized I was getting something out of this dysfunction too. I went to T and researched my past and FOO issues. I realized I believed in a fairytale, a fantasy rs, but none of it was real. I thought he could change, I was in love with his potential rather then being in love with his real self. I was arrogant to believe I could turn him into a better man. That was never up to me, it was up to him. He had to live up to my expectations, which was impossible for him. He could never be what I wanted him to be, he could never treat me with the respect i wanted. he could never give me the support in time of need, it was unrealistic to expect that of him. I danced a dysfunctional dance with him. If I wanted a healthy, respectfull trustworthy rs he was not the guy to ask it from. I realized I had strong codependancy issues, i wanted to rescue him to feel better about myself. Instead on focussing on his issues, i had to focus on mine. I was expecting sanity from a disordered mind.

Einsteins quote about Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

Thats what i was doing. He will not rescue you, he will not give you what you need. Only you can do that. Same goes for him, you cannot rescue him, you cannot change him, he has to be willing to do that for himself.

A good place to start is to look at your own FOO issues, why do you want to change him? Why are you willing to settle for less then you think you deserve? What in your past had caused that you can't let go of this pattern?

It comes down to radical acceptance, seeing the situation for what it truely is, instead of seeing it how you would like it to be.

Its a hard and confrontational process, but it in all its horrors and pains, it was the best thing that happened to me in the end. It made me truely look at me and now i have the chance to become a better version of me. I am working on me and my future looks brighter.

Goodluck with your decision. The first steps are really the hardest, but it really gets a lot better with time.

Sending you strenght and hugs! 

[BadKitty]

he knows he has a problem but still wont let go... .people say they cant really love , but in fact i sometimes feel it ... .

I feel this way too. I feel like he does love me, I can see it in his eyes. I could be delusional though, and what I am seeing is not love but something else. Lust maybe?

Thanks again, going places. This is helping me to understand that there really is no possibility of change. I always new this. I am glad I have only spent 2 years with this man instead of the many years you spent with yours.

Recooperating, I am realizing that I do, for some reason, possibly like the drama? All my life I have dealt with different kinds of drama. My father is an alcoholic, my mom has BPD and bipolar disorder. I have an ex of 9 years who was an alcoholic. I DO NOT enjoy this but maybe it is all I know. I want to break the cycle.

As I sat here typing this, things came to a head. He had come home drunk tonight. I told him I wouldn't mind if he stayed at his dad's because of our current situation. He started yelling at me and throwing all of my things out of the bedroom. I had already been sleeping in the living room but now my things are all over the living room. My clothes all over the floor and even through some in the litter box! Why? He started saying horrible things about my family! I am very upset right now!

[jhkbuzz]

I feel this way too. I feel like he does love me, I can see it in his eyes. I could be delusional though, and what I am seeing is not love but something else. Lust maybe?

Have you considered that it might be "need"?  I felt the same way in my r/s for a long time... .she wasn't (and isn't) a monster, I could see something in her eyes for me... .was it love?  She said she loved me, she committed to our r/s, we were together for such a long time, she was choosing to stay with me... .it had to be love, right?... .

Wrong. Now that I'm over 6 months out, I can look back and recognize that what I thought was her love for me was actually her need for me. And in the end, her need was never exclusive to me to begin with (yup, that's right - I wasn't "special" or the "one," although I thought I was for a long time). She can (and will) get these needs met in the future by anyone who is willing to live in a one-sided relationship. She didn't (and probably never) loved me in the healthy, adult, reciprocal sense of the word.  I was needed for what I could provide: a sense of safety and security, stability, loyalty, and my love for her. But I didn't receive these in return - I received affection and the feeling of being needed, which seemed like enough for a while - but in reality it's a very pale substitute for love.

And all of this ^ makes sense if BPD is a disorder of arrested emotional development.  After all, I wouldn't expect any of these things from a child - I could only provide them.

Recooperating, I am realizing that I do, for some reason, possibly like the drama? All my life I have dealt with different kinds of drama. My father is an alcoholic, my mom has BPD and bipolar disorder. I have an ex of 9 years who was an alcoholic. I DO NOT enjoy this but maybe it is all I know. I want to break the cycle.

It's not necessarily "liking the drama," it's that we sometimes repeat scenarios from our childhood in our adult lives in an attempt to finally master them or fix them.  This would be something to explore in therapy.  As you have said repeatedly, it is definitely a 'cycle' that needs to be healed.

[LifeIsBeautiful]

This question bounced in my head all the time, actually it's still there.

Someone asked me these questions which I thought helped in my decision:

What good are you getting out of the relationship?

If none, what is stopping you from ending it or leaving?

Read about FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). It was definitely true for me feeling those emotions. My uBPDw is a natural when it comes to manipulating those feelings to her advantage. It's actually quite simple, most toddlers know it before they could walk:

1. If I  don't get what I want, cry and scream.

2. Stop when you get what you want.

3. If I don't get it, goto to 1.

Amazingly they are actually conditioning (or training) the adult's actions. You have to break the cycle.

It is not easy, definitely, but that is how it plays out.

[going places]

1. If I  don't get what I want, cry and scream.

2. Stop when you get what you want.

3. If I don't get it, goto to 1.

Sometimes the manipulation is so devious you don't even notice:

1. If you don't get what you want, sulk, pout, let your body language be clear that you are unhappy and it's ALL your wife's fault.

2. IF that does not work fast enough, apply silent treatment. When asking "what's the matter / what's bothering you"... .say, OH NOTHING in a 'tone' so that it's obvious it's something, and it's the wife's fault.

3. IF 1 and 2 are not enough, then apply 'the look'. Wad your face up so that when you look at your wife, it's with a look of disgust. Stare at her with eyes of anger, and when she turns to look at you; look away.

4. Next step? Ignore her completely. When she comes in the room, leave the room. When she comes upstairs, go downstairs, when she comes into the garage, go in the house. Make it OBVIOUS that she is being avoided and ignored. Make sure that while you are doing this, that you give her the glare, then look away silently and do not respond to her question of "what did I do wrong?".

5. ONCE YOU GET YOUR WAY, make sure to spend time talking to your wife, acting like you are interested in what she is saying / doing, tell her you love her, act like you are happy to see her;

That way the next time, she will just do what you want / give you what you want, so that she will avoid the toddler behavior, silent treatment, rejection.

At least when they are raging, screaming and yelling, you know something 'abnormal' is going on... .

This way is so devious... .it manipulates the wife into thinking she is the problem. Trains her to give her 'self' away.

Never again.

Never again will I ever tolerated this type of manipulation, ever.

[Shottsy85]

I can't even begin to explain how frightninly exact ALL of the above stories are to my own current situation and cycles are. Your strength and self reflection is really making me think as well. I have been on the verge of leaving but I love the happy "honeymoon" months and would think nothing is wrong. Then the other cycle happens...

I usually post in the staying forum as well. We are supposed to be moving in less than two weeks. We WERE going to be moving all together with my best friend, and my BPDbf managed to sabotage by secretly sexually harassing my bff. I can right now make the choice to get out of this nightmare and move in with my best friend. I wouldn't even be alone then, but I have all the same fears and also we do have so much fun together. No one makes me laugh like him, but no one also makes me feel as awful as he does either.

I did set a boundary though that he is in the process of following which at the moment is the only reason I personally have any conflict with whether or not I should give this any more time. I have already given him 8 years and am about to turn 30. This last straw gave him the kick to get into DBT. Of course I found where to go and made the first call, but then he did call himself and set up an intake. He at least admits and knows he is a BP. He is seeing a T and is on meds but the T is trying to get his diagnosis changed because apparently out of the hospital they only diagnosed depression, which I guess reading about lack of trained professionals etc it is still common to not diagnose BPD. Our old psychiatrist diagnosed him though which is the first I heard of it.

Anyways he is doing the whole nicey huggy I love you stuff and manipulating and saying he wants to be with me. He even told me he knows he doesn't do enough and asked me to write a list of things I would want to do so when he needs ideas for activities or dates with me he knows more that I would like. We aren't married either with no kids but I still have that crazy fantasy and of course conviently he says he wants that too. For me I guess I want to see him actually get the help he needs and see if it makes a difference but I think I'm pretty done otherwise.

I really admire your strength. Is your BP boyfriend like really likable too to where you also look crazy because people think he is so wonderful?

[going places]

Is your BP boyfriend like really likable too to where you also look crazy because people think he is so wonderful?

Exhusband of 25 years.

Yes.

When I was in my early 30's, his gaslighting (didn't know then that's what it was) and manipulation had his family convinced I was having 'hormonal' issues. Then it was *I* had a 'chemical imbalance'. Then it was *I* was _____ fill in the blank.

*I* went to my OB, and had my blood drawn. Checked my thyroid, checked my hormones, checked my liver.

Checked to see if I had 'metal toxicity'. Went to a T to see what was wrong with ME.

Saw 4 different people in 4 different stages of the marriage (4 years in, 10 years in, 15 years in and 21 years in).

The first one told me that my then husband was immature, that he had kids early and he would 'grow out of it'.

The second one told me that he was similar to my mother, and I had to work out my issues w my mother to reach him.

The third one told me that I need to bring him in with, because they really needed to speak with him. Didn't go so far as to say it was HIM that was the problem, but he would not go, so I didn't go back.

The forth, told me the affair was MY fault, that if I had been a better wife and submit to him, this would have never happened.

I finally confided in my doc, off the record, after ONE YEAR of maintaining silence (the 'Pastor/Counselor told me if I talked about it, I was unforgiving). She begged me to get help, and unofficially diagnosed me with PTSD and Depression.

And lastly, I went to see an abuse advocate.

It was then and only then I realized: it's not me. She finished my sentences. It was like this woman was in my closet watching my life... .classic abuse.

ONCE I started to understand and unravel what he was doing to me, it gave me the power to take my life back.

His tricks didn't work anymore (took about a year in total... .and still when I have to email w him about the house we are selling, when he tries to manipulate me, it makes me sick to my stomach, panic attack, etc BUT I know what he is doing so I do not succumb to it).

Yes, he is a charmer. EVERYONE loves him. My own mother thinks HE is the Savior.

Went so far as to look me in the eye, when we 'reconciled' after his affair and said "I'm so glad you working this out I cannot imagine life without ______". WOW really? After what he did to me and our kids? Really?

My own mother.

At any rate, yes, everyone thinks he's the Messiah. And I am the 'problem'.

Yes, he made 'lists'. He even set his phone to 'remind' him to tell me he loves me or to do 'something nice for me'.

Set his phone, to remind him, to 'love' his wife of 20+ years.

Oh he charmed the pants of the "Biblical Counselor"... .even spent time with another "churchy dude" who said *I* was the problem... .while they were out having a beer together.

Oh yes, everyone loves him... .feels so sorry for him and his situation.

He tells everyone "I made one mistake, and she just can't get past it"... .so I am the unforgiving monster.

No more.

NEVER AGAIN will that monster manipulate me.

I don't give a rats ripe arce what anyone thinks or believes.

*I* (and my adult children) know the TRUTH.

WE lived w that monster.

We know what he is when his mask is off... .

[jhkbuzz]

We are supposed to be moving in less than two weeks. We WERE going to be moving all together with my best friend, and my BPDbf managed to sabotage by secretly sexually harassing my bff.

Wait... .what? This is a female bff that the two of you are moving in with? He was sexually harrassing her?  Whaaaaaaaat?

This is what tripped me up for a loong time in my r/s with my exBPDgf (she was a waif, no raging):

• That she was so outwardly "kind" - but her actions were cruel.



• That her' nice words' towards me didn't line up with her devaluing behavior.



• That because everyone else viewed her as likable and wonderful, her behaviors (passive aggressive, dishonest, unfaithful) must somehow be "my fault" - or at the very least, something I could help "fix."
  
  

I posted about my confusion about this not too long ago (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271143.0), and the following gave me a lot of clarity.

One thing that helped me was accepting the overall fact that 'nice' does not equal 'good.' Niceness is a way of dealing with the world. As Gavin de Becker said in his excellent book, The Gift of Fear-- "We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning."

What I finally came to understand about my ex is that I loved her personality - she could be funny, sweet, charming, etc. - but I couldn't live with the core personality traits (dishonest, selfish, absence of moral/ethical values) that arose from the disorder.

What also helped me was reading about (believe it or not) Ted Bundy.  Let me say quickly that my ex is not a violent psychopath (!) - but what you do begin to see when you read his life story is that an amazing number of people who have met him found him to be charming - genuinely charming. His personality and "niceness" were in direct contrast to the behavior he was actually capable of.  Mind blowing, eh?  At least it was for me.

You recognized in your post that his "nice huggy I love you stuff" is manipulative. What should you do now that you see this? You know that those "happy honeymoon phases" are temporary; there will always be "the other cycle."

I believe in God; I don't know if you do... .but it seems that God (the universe? fate?) has presented you with a pretty amazing opportunity to exit this r/s quickly and easily... .think long and hard about that.

[BorisAcusio]

What I finally came to understand about my ex is that I loved her personality - she could be funny, sweet, charming, etc. - but I couldn't live with the core personality traits (dishonest, selfish, absence of moral/ethical values) that arose from the disorder.

It think what it really shows that our idea of reference, in many cases just as flawed as theirs, concentrating on the superficial level, rather than the real personality traits. I hope BNS doesn't mind if quote him, I think what he encapsulated in these posts are resonating with many of us.

We would do crazy stuff, have a big night, take the day off work and make love all day... . in our 30's... . 

... . And now I want... . a successful professional, bombshell blond, amazing fun personality, loves to have a few drinks a let loose, sexaholic, emotionally vulnerable princess, who makes me feel amazing every time I rescue her... . 

A lot of the discussion on this site focuses on turning our gaze inward and asking ourselves what it is about us that ended us up in these relationships.  It would not be possible to have a healthy relationship with the fantasy person described above.  (Indeed, few successful professionals call in sick to work in order to make love all day).  I think many of us (myself included) have the fantasy that we could take the person you described and, through force or our own personality and will, turn them into someone who could be all those things and simultaneously be reliable and faithful and giving and respectful.  

But of course it doesn't work.  

And here's the other thing: many, many people would run for the hills if they ever met anyone meeting your description.  Because they know that where it leads is inevitable, and they don't even want to think about going there.  

The goal for many of us, I would say, is not to find someone who makes us feel like our ex did during the good times. The goal is how to find joy and passion in a relationship with someone who is already complete, emotionally independent, doesn't need constant attachments to feel alive, doesn't need to be rescued.  I.e. is healthy.

This is a real challenge. I know for me it is.  It is the one on which I'm trying to focus.  

The less I think about her and the longer I haven't been in touch with her, the more I realise I never liked this girl. Don't get me wrong, she was very fun to be around and we had a blast in the beginning, but I always found her to be a bit too narcissistic. I also thought she wasn't particularly intelligent, caring or hardworking. She was generous to some people, but showed very little empathy to the ones she didn't care for. I also noticed straight away how she would, on purpose, try to hurt people around her.

Hell, now that I think about it, the first two months or so (I'd say I was in a position of power at this point in the relationship) I often told her that what she did wasn't right. I often told her to be more polite towards others and I made it known when I didn't like a certain behaviour of hers.

I guess that I never really thought of it as a relationship between equals. I was, in effect, trying to raise this girl?

Many people here are saying "yes, I really liked her," but I will tell you that I had these same feelings crop up during our r/s, even during the good times.  I knew that my now ex was not my intellectual peer, but then I would say oh, you're just being pretentious.  I knew she didn't share many of my interests, but at the beginning she seemed so interested in everything I had to say that I convinced myself that could change.  I wasn't enamored of any of her interests either (which I realize now were ALL linked to her appearance in some way), but I thought I could teach myself.  I knew we shared different values with respect to work, civic duty, money, etc, but I convinced myself somehow that such difference were fairly common in successful relationships.  She had experiences with drugs and sex in the past that seemed to herald a lack of stability to me, but I convinced myself that she was maturing and (apropos of your "was I trying to raise her" question) that I was part of her maturation.

So why did I stay around so long?  More to the point, why did I try to convince myself so hard that I did like her? I think the real answer is that she fed my ego, both with the way she acted and the way she looked, and that felt so good that I had to convince myself that the relationship was the right thing.  And the idea of helping her "mature" was an ego-boosting bonus.  

[jhkbuzz]

What I finally came to understand about my ex is that I loved her personality - she could be funny, sweet, charming, etc. - but I couldn't live with the core personality traits (dishonest, selfish, absence of moral/ethical values) that arose from the disorder.

It think what it really shows that our idea of reference, in many cases just as flawed as theirs, concentrating on the superficial level, rather than the real personality traits.

I'm not sure I agree with that, Boris. What she told me her values were turned out to be vastly different from what they actually were in action. What I told her about my values remained consistent with my actions throughout our 8 year r/s.

It is possible to be lied to, and to by fooled by, the lies of other people.  That's not on me - that's on her.

(And I'm not absolving myself of any responsibility for the r/s, by the way.  I just refuse to 'take on' the responsibility for the unethical behavior which arose solely from her (disordered though the origins of it all might be).

[BorisAcusio]

What I finally came to understand about my ex is that I loved her personality - she could be funny, sweet, charming, etc. - but I couldn't live with the core personality traits (dishonest, selfish, absence of moral/ethical values) that arose from the disorder.

It think what it really shows that our idea of reference, in many cases just as flawed as theirs, concentrating on the superficial level, rather than the real personality traits.

I'm not sure I agree with that, Boris. What she told me her values were turned out to be vastly different from what they actually were in action. What I told her about my values remained consistent with my actions throughout our 8 year r/s.

It is possible to be lied to, and to by fooled by, the lies of other people.  That's not on me - that's on her.

(And I'm not absolving myself of any responsibility for the r/s, by the way.  I just refuse to 'take on' the responsibility for the unethical behavior which arose solely from her (disordered though the origins of it all might be).

I don't beleive that someone with the emotional maturity of a three years old are actually capable to remain deceptive and credible for years. There was a point where, as you said, actions begun to diverge from words, and I personally chose to overlook those clues . That doesn't make us responsible for their actions but on the victimhood scale, from that point, it makes an equal share.

[jhkbuzz]

What I finally came to understand about my ex is that I loved her personality - she could be funny, sweet, charming, etc. - but I couldn't live with the core personality traits (dishonest, selfish, absence of moral/ethical values) that arose from the disorder.

It think what it really shows that our idea of reference, in many cases just as flawed as theirs, concentrating on the superficial level, rather than the real personality traits.

I'm not sure I agree with that, Boris. What she told me her values were turned out to be vastly different from what they actually were in action. What I told her about my values remained consistent with my actions throughout our 8 year r/s.

It is possible to be lied to, and to by fooled by, the lies of other people.  That's not on me - that's on her.

(And I'm not absolving myself of any responsibility for the r/s, by the way.  I just refuse to 'take on' the responsibility for the unethical behavior which arose solely from her (disordered though the origins of it all might be).

I don't believe that someone with the emotional maturity of a three yeards old are actually capable to remain deceptive and credible for years. There was a point where, as you said, actions begun to diverge from words, and I personally chose to overlooked those clues . That doesn't make us responsible for their actions but on the victimhood scale, from that point, it makes an equal share.

After we moved in together she went "full on" into vulnerable child mode.  She was very dependent, very anxious, very clingy.  Remained that way for several years.  I could never convince her that she could be secure in our r/s, secure in my love. Then she flipped into impulsive/angry child mode, which is when the lying and cheating started.  I had a very difficult time understanding what was happening; she appeared to be going completely off the deep end. I didn't feel comfortable leaving her when she was clearly such a mess; I also remained for the sake of a child.

I'm not so sure that I overlooked as much as I couldn't reconcile the "her before" and "her after."  I kept thinking that I must be missing something - and now I know that "something" was her disordered personality.

I'm out of the FOG.

[BadKitty]

I need to read up on FOG.

Is your BP boyfriend like really likable too to where you also look crazy because people think he is so wonderful?

Yes, definitely. When we first met, my boss kind of played matchmaker because he was such a wonderful guy, made good money, no kids ect... Then we started to think, there must be something wrong with him? What could it be? Well, just after moving in with him... .I found out. It was not so bad that I couldn't deal with it. It was confusing to me how he could be so loving and kind then turn on a dime. The more time went by, the worse it got. Now I am in hell.

I am called the crazy one, I am not normal. I am bipolar. Just because my childhood was bad doesn't give me the right to treat him like ___. I am selfish. All of his family and friends think I am a crazy b___ yet they know nothing about me. I have met his family members a handful of times in the 2.5 years we have been together.

[Clearmind]

Hope! Hope he will change, hope that he loves you enough to want to change, hope that one day he will see it all clearly. I wanted to be around when that day came because my goodness I put in the hard yards and didn't want someone other women benefitting from my work!  

I can't answer your questions for you, and for me it was short term pain for long term game - in leaving. My ex said some things that were non negotiable. I threw him out, regretted it, spent a lot of time thinking "you idiot". I was very hard on myself.

I soon learnt why I wanted to stay. But more importantly I fully understood why I was attracted in the first place. I learnt that I needed him just as much as he needed me. I learnt that he was fine without me. I learnt he wasn't a child that I was leaving on the church steps.

The most important two things I learnt were that he didn't want to change and that "need" aside and BPd aside, I didn't even like him as a person. I realised that in order to truly love someone I needed to get that love was not about changing someone into a person I felt I needed and it certainly wasn't meant to be this hard.

[going places]

I'm not so sure that I overlooked as much as I couldn't reconcile the "her before" and "her after."  I kept thinking that I must be missing something - and now I know that "something" was her disordered personality.

I'm out of the FOG.

Lucky for me, my ex had the emotional maturity of a 13 year old boy! So he was able to maintain his deception for over 20 years.

I truly, had NO idea.

I simply trusted him. I believed him because his lies were not 'obvious'. (I used to be a brain surgeon, but now I am a fighter pilot; when he works at McDonalds... .) His deception, his ability to keep up his "front" was amazing... .

I was truly blindsided.

To suggest that in some way I am 'equal in share' is offensive at the very least, and sickeningly hurtful at the most.

After spending time with an abuse advocate, reading everything I could get my hands on; THAT is when I was able to see the way I was treated was NOT normal, and the things that were told to me were NOT normal; they were abuse. Abuse at the hands of a master deceiver.

He did an amazing job of hiding behind the mask from 1989-2011.

Since 2011, he has changed jobs every year... .

He chose himself and his picture friends over his wife and family; there by losing a wife of 25 years, and a relationship with his 3 adult children.

He lost a beautiful home with acreage, and all the toys that go with.

He lost the respect and friendship of MANY people we were friends with.

Everyone, with the exception of his messed up family, was slack jawed when they found out what he had done, and what he continued to do, and what he chose.

No one saw it coming.

So yes.

It is true.

Even though he had the maturity of a spoiled, arrogant, entitled 13 year old boy?

Yes, his mask was WELL intact for over 20 years.

[downnout98]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Thanks going places, for sharing your story. I know I am not alone here.

Name your fears; make a list, post them here.

Let's examine them.

This is tough and it took me a bit to actually think about it. I think this may have been part of your intentions, to make me actually realize what it is I am afraid of. I have come up with a few things. Some of these things I have already examined myself.

1. I am afraid of feeling lonely without him. - I am lonely with him in my life already as he isn't available to me when I need emotional support of any kind. He is only around when HE is lonely. Other than that he will disappear to be by himself.

2. I am afraid that I am making the wrong decision and will miss him so much and never be able to get him back after I leave. - I shouldn't even be afraid of this since the point is to leave and not come back.

3. I am afraid he will find someone new. - This one really makes no sense because I do just want him to be happy, even if that means being with someone else. I see him struggle everyday with his emotions and I don't think anyone or anything could make him happy but being alone.

4. I am terrified of leaving and him trying to contact me and I fall for it again, repeating the cycle, I know it will never change.

5. I think I am just afraid of change. It's more comfortable just to stay with him.

I am 35 years old and this is the second man I've loved. Maybe I am afraid of never finding anyone to love again, but to be honest, I am a loner and would be perfectly fine alone. It's just the feeling of loving someone that brings so much happiness.

Keep reading these posts BadKitty. My exgf and I broke up two months ago but before that, we were together for three years. It has been tough the past two months but I keep reminding myself that the longer I stayed the worse it was getting. I had been wanting to leave since a long time ago but your reasons were also my reasons to stay. I also loved the way she loved me and fed my ego, but those were only during the few moments of good times when I was fulfilling her needs. I think about her a lot and I have already been replaced. That was hard to deal with but really it should give me all the answers I need. She seems very happy with him but she still tries to get in contact with me. Again, I remind myself that after every recycle, trust me there were plenty, things would be great for a while and then the shoe would drop and it would then be hell again. At least until she found someone to fill her needs or decided that I was filling them.

Stay strong, love yourself first.

[BadKitty]

Keep reading these posts BadKitty. My exgf and I broke up two months ago but before that, we were together for three years. It has been tough the past two months but I keep reminding myself that the longer I stayed the worse it was getting. I had been wanting to leave since a long time ago but your reasons were also my reasons to stay. I also loved the way she loved me and fed my ego, but those were only during the few moments of good times when I was fulfilling her needs. I think about her a lot and I have already been replaced. That was hard to deal with but really it should give me all the answers I need. She seems very happy with him but she still tries to get in contact with me. Again, I remind myself that after every recycle, trust me there were plenty, things would be great for a while and then the shoe would drop and it would then be hell again. At least until she found someone to fill her needs or decided that I was filling them.

Stay strong, love yourself first.

After last weeks, when things are now spiraling out of control, all of those reasons no longer matter to me. I have realized I must leave. I know me just telling him and him realizing that I really am leaving has made things worse. But I have to do this for my own emotional well being. I really feel for my replacement, if and when there is one.