Real life lesson in invalidation

[peace in steel town]

I really enjoyed that episode of Dr Phil. I don't care for all of the drama and his promoting of his books, but I think the families are real, and his advice is sound. My father has a saying, animals and children will do whatever you let them get away with. Kids don't grow up in a vacuum. If you model bad behavior, they will learn bad behavior. If you don't teach them boundaries, they will never respect them. We had a similar problem. My wife admitted that it was easier just to give the kid what she wanted, and the situation will calm down. She taught dd that if you act out big enough, mom will cave. We had that time and time again. Things are better now, no most of the time means no. Kids are looking for boundaries, As much as they don't like them, they feel safer with them. Personally, I think that this behaviour is a cause of BPD. The child learns that to act out is to get what you want. The problem is, that what first starts out as a tool to get what you want becomes a behaviour pattern, and they can't turn it off any more. Going ballistic at the drop of a hat becomes a habit they can't break. There was a young girl on his show a month ago, that used food as the only thing she could control. However, as time went on, it turned into an eating disorder. She thought calories floated around in the air, and that you could get fat by breathing.  

Split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270780

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Dibdob59]

Many parents on this board post how they feel blamed by medical practitioners and society for their child suffering from BPD.

The parental treatment of the child when young used to be cited as the major cause if BPD, which results in crippling guilt and anxiety for parents when a child presents with this disorder.

So many posts are from traumatised parents asking "is this terrible disorder in my child really my fault?" These parents are advised to read all that the board has to offer and are given links to books/medical reports to inform them about the origins of BPD and to let them know that the tide has changed regarding parental blame.

Your post puts the blame squarely back in the lap of parents in an over simplified version of bringing up a child who later presents with BPD.

She taught dd that if you act out big enough, mom will cave. We had that time and time again.

Personally, I think that this behaviour is a cause of BPD.

As a mother of a child with BPD I am so tired of this attitude. It is the main reason I am isolated and cannot discuss my child's disorder with anyone.

To see comments such as this written by someone who posts regularly on this board, and who has read the anguished posts of so many parents who already blame themselves, just reinforces this narrow minded, blaming attitude that many in society have towards the parent.

[easternmom]

Yesterday, I watched this video of Dr. Blaise Aguirre:

https://bpdfamily.org/2013/05/bpdfamily.html

It is also recommended on bpdfamily. The fact that he mentioned that in his residential treatment facility, even under the broadest definition, only 1/3 of the kids seem to come from a dysfunctional family, must mean that we need to review this.

When I started considering that my daughter was suffering from BPD, it was the first question I asked myself.

[peace in steel town]

Wow. Holy crap. I thought we were talking about the Dr Phil episode. How many people who got their back up actually watched the episode? Are you telling me that yelling at the daughter, tearing the door off the hinges, and the posts that mom put on her facebook page are examples of good parenting, or setting good examples for their daughters? I don't think so. I agree with Dr Phil, that when you yell at a child, you descend to their level and you are treating them as a peer. I also remember reading that it shows a lack of control on the part of the parent, that the only way the parent can keep their cool is if the kid behaves a certain way. Listen, I went from being a single male, to the parent of a rebellious teen, to an empty nester, in six months. That's quite a learning curve. I was clueless as a parent. We happened to stumble upon a website called Empowering Parents, and that helped a lot. The first time Dd lived with us, she was very much like the teen on the show, but we got a defiant finger in the face, as well. Instant ballistic if she didn't get her way. I have said it before, she took off to see a boy, and was told that she could come back that night, or the following, but not after that. She called five days later, asking to come home, and I said no. She wound up with her brother, brother's mom, psych ward, father, friend, and then a homeless shelter. She did finally make it back here, seven months later. The angry defiance was gone. She would talk back to her mom, but not to me. One time she tried to talk back to me, in front of her friend, and I put her in her place. She went over to her mom and said see, that's why I don't talk back to him. That sounds like chosen behaviour to me. She ran away again a week later, hasn't come back. That was 2 and a half years ago. We don't get raging and anger. We don't get defiance. She has her struggles, and the staff at the home where she is staying gets her crap, not us. Back to the Dr Phil episode. Did you notice that the daughter had three distinct, separate personalities? Angry and defiant to her parents, because it worked, they gave her what she wanted. To the handlers, she was wimpering and fetal, hoping they would let her be. To Dr Phil, she seemed confident, poised, and well mannered. You don't think that she chose the behaviour for it's intended audience, knowing which one worked best? I agree with Dr Phil, that it's a family problem, not just a kid problem. Just because the other two kids turned out fine doesn't mean that the parents are exempt. Yelling, ripping doors off hinges, and such, are not examples of good parenting.       

[lbjnltx]

Hi peace,

Must admit I didn't watch that particular episode and have seen enough Dr. Phil episodes about out of control children and unhealthy parenting not to need to.

Are you telling me that yelling at the daughter, tearing the door off the hinges, and the posts that mom put on her facebook page are examples of good parenting, or setting good examples for their daughters?

No, no one is trying to tell you that.  What the other posters are trying to convey is that poor parenting alone is not the cause of BPD.  If it were every child raised by parents without self control or good skills would develop BPD. Scientific studies show that a large portion of the BPD population was raised in loving and caring homes with loving and caring parents.

I don't think so. I agree with Dr Phil, that when you yell at a child, you descend to their level and you are treating them as a peer. I also remember reading that it shows a lack of control on the part of the parent, that the only way the parent can keep their cool is if the kid behaves a certain way.

Agreed... .we teach people how to treat us by what we accept from them without accountability or boundaries.

She would talk back to her mom, but not to me. One time she tried to talk back to me, in front of her friend, and I put her in her place. She went over to her mom and said see, that's why I don't talk back to him. That sounds like chosen behaviour to me.

Back to the Dr Phil episode. Did you notice that the daughter had three distinct, separate personalities? Angry and defiant to her parents, because it worked, they gave her what she wanted. To the handlers, she was wimpering and fetal, hoping they would let her be. To Dr Phil, she seemed confident, poised, and well mannered. You don't think that she chose the behaviour for it's intended audience, knowing which one worked best?

The majority of people who suffer from BPD and traits of the disorder have interpersonal relationship deficits.  These deficits are the most pronounced in their relationships with those they are closest to.

BPD suffers can come across as manipulative as well.  Technically, the experts disagree with the statement that they are manipulative and are actually finding ways to meet their needs in the moment and relieve their distress.  Rather sad isn't it?

I agree with Dr Phil, that it's a family problem, not just a kid problem. Just because the other two kids turned out fine doesn't mean that the parents are exempt. Yelling, ripping doors off hinges, and such, are not examples of good parenting.       

Once more... .agreed.  While the majority of the parents on this board would admit that they were not perfect parents they would most all likely agree that they were good parents... .myself included.  It isn't that we are parenting poorly... .it is that we were not using the most effective parenting model for a special needs child and most of us didn't understand what our child needed because we didn't understand what they were struggling with.

lbj

[peace in steel town]

Thank you for your post, I don't feel like quite the outcast anymore. I never said that there was only one cause of BPD. Look back to what I originally posted, I said that that I thought this MIGHT be A cause. A cause. Regardless of the cause, your child has BPD. How you handle it is up to you. The reality is that the real world will be a better parent than you could ever hope to be. The real world will not tolerate, enable, or make excuses for your childs' behaviour. If your child anger rages with you, that child will soon learn that employers, friends, police, etc, will not be as forgiving and understanding as the parents will be. I suggest you watch the episode, and watch how the daughter interacts with her parents, and vice versa. The parents are not modelling good problem solving skills for their other two daughters, and one of them even moved out, apparently she knew better than her own parents. Parenting is not easy. I was lousy at it. My sister has a saying, "I didn't know any better. The end. When I knew better, I did better." Things are better here for us. I stood my ground, and Dd respects me for it. Doesn't like me any farther than she can throw me, blames most of her life's problems on me, but she does respect me. I saw the other string, my comments apparently aren't too popular. I had a theory, I could be wrong. Watch the show "Brain Games", that's where I got the idea from, about the brain forming habits, programmed response, short cuts, and such. I am not here to start a war with other posters.

[Skip]

Personally, I think that this behaviour is a cause of BPD. The child learns that to act out is to get what you want. The problem is, that what first starts out as a tool to get what you want becomes a behaviour pattern... .

Hey peace',

There is a great lesson to be learned in this thread about validation: validating in terms of personal history or biology. If this comes off as a little harsh, it is not intended that way at all.  I see that you have some beliefs and you feel strongly about them and want to share. I might be able to help make this easier.

The reaction you are getting is for being invalidating, specifically for not considering personal history of members here.  Saying "I think that this behavior is a cause of BPD" might be your opinion - but it intimates that this is about parenting skills and all the experts and the service organizations are creating an industry, and biological parents (including your wife) are toxic.

Think of the expression, "one drink won't hurt".  How would that be perceived at a wedding vs an alcoholics anonymous meeting?

My father has a saying, animals and children will do whatever you let them get away with. Kids don't grow up in a vacuum. If you model bad behavior, they will learn bad behavior. If you don't teach them boundaries, they will never respect them. We had a similar problem. My wife admitted that it was easier just to give the kid what she wanted, and the situation will calm down. She taught dd that if you act out big enough, mom will cave.

Going to to the substance of what you say, is BPD about not modeling good behavior and did your wife cause her daughter to have BPD by not having firmer rules.  BPD is not about lazy parenting. And unless your wife abused her daughter, she likely is not suffering from environmental BPD - sometimes referred to a C-PTSD (read Judith Herman, Professor of clinical psychiatry at Harvard University Medical School of Harvard University).

That said, modeling good behavior is good for any child and even more-so for a child with BPD traits. The same an be said for structure and responsibility rules - so you are not wrong here.

As imperfect parents, we're trying to help on another through difficult times that I think we all feel some responsibility and guilt. And borderline personality disorder is really a complex condition to navigate.  We don't want to be flippant about any of this. We want everyone to feel safe here - safe enough to even share what they now realize were not constructive given a child with this predisposition.

I know you'll get this once it is laid out before you - so I thought I'd do that.  

Skip



Here are the six aspects of validating someone that is struggling emotionally.

Stay Awake "Staying awake" means pay attention, being attentive, asking questions. At its most basic, all you really have to do is focus, listen and nod yes, lean forward. It's critical not to be judgmental or dismissive about what the person has experienced - these will be taken as forms of criticism that you view something as "wrong" or "bad". A person with BPD can often see the changes in our faces when we have judgmental thoughts.

Accurate Reflection Accurate reflection requires you to communicate that you've heard the person. At its most basic, just repeat, verbatim, what the person said-- though it can be better to paraphrase so you don't sound like a parrot. This helps because it communicate to the person that what he is experiencing is universal enough for you "to get it" and that you are listening to what they are saying.

Stating the Unarticulated This is about demonstrating your active involvement in the discussion. It requires you to create a hypothesis about what you believe the person is not telling you. You can do this with a question or a supposition - ask if "_____" is accurate. This works especially when the person is dysregulated. You have to be willing to be wrong though, which shows that you haven't quite got it yet, so then ask more questions.

Validating in Terms of Personal History or Biology We are what's happened in our lives. On some level, all our actions make sense based on our history and experience. If you ever lived through a tornado, you would have a higher response to the warning sirens than others.Letting a person know that their behavior makes sense based on their past experiences shows understanding. Our physical problems also impact (thus explain) how we behave. A person who has a bad back has difficulty sitting for long periods of time. Making reference to mitigating circumstances shows understanding and empathy.

Normalizing One of the most important things to communicate is that others would have the same response. People with BPD have the ongoing experience of being different - outsiders in their own worlds. When you normalize what they are feeling you find a way to communicate that what is going on for the person with BPD is the experience of being human, that anyone in the same situation could feel the same way. This is powerful. Some key phrases that can be used are:

   "We all have moments when we feel that way"

"Of course you think that: anyone would in your situation"

"I would feel that way too"

"You know that is such a normal reaction"

"It makes sense that you did that. We all have those moments"

Of course, there are some things you can't normalize, such as suicidal behavior. Don't normalize things that are clearly not normal.

Radical Genuineness The key to validation is to be genuine. To be radically genuine is to ensure that you don't "fragilize", condescend, or talk down to the person you are trying to validate. You don't want to treat them any differently than you would anyone else in a similar situation. They aren't fragile, and to treat them as such can be seen as condescending.

According to Manning, there are really good reasons for changing your responses. The reason for validation is to dampen emotional arousal.

[Thursday]

I've read this thread (and the other one) since they began.

Glad you feel better about the responses peaceinsteeltown. I guess I feel a certain sense of understanding for you that comes, possibly, from our perspective as step-parents.

I have been in the position of feeling that were it not for my husband's earlier poor boundaries and enabling behaviors my SD would be healthier. Were it not for her early trauma of the loss of her bio-Mom. Were it not for the way her brain works. Were it not for her Mom's parenting. Were it not for family history of mental illness and addiction. Were it not for being bullied at school. Maybe someone sexually assaulted her and she doesn't remember but has been negatively affected? I wasn't there for her early years... .so I don't know everything... .

I've read and understood the post's where members are tired and upset about societal blaming. I can imagine how that might feel- you've done your best, your other kids are fine and here is someone else saying the parenting had something or everything to do with the kid's problems.

When things were not going well for SD, before we got the relief we are currently experiencing, a lot of history had put SD squarely where she was, which was not a good place. Her history could not be changed but my husband could. One example- DH was allowing her a lot of financial assistance that was enabling drug abuse. When I expressed concern that he was funding her drug abuse with his unnecessary financial assistance what he heard from me was "You are doing it wrong."

UGH- so complicated. 

We talk here about causes. Trauma, neuro function, abuse, and so on. In my situation, poor parenting (more than just enabling) was not the entire problem by any means but it wasn't helping.

So, while I hate that anyone feels smacked around by a post where poor parenting is mentioned as a contributing factor to a kid's BPD, I want to make sure we don't smack around the poster, especially if they are working to improve their situation and have their kid's best interest in their heart.

Thursday

[Kate4queen]

My son had multiple personalities, which had nothing to do with my parenting skills.

To us he was hateful and abusive.

To those he feared physically or who held power over him outside the family-he played nice with.

To those he just met he was a charming courageous charismatic person to be admired.

I've watched him in a room full of teachers at IEP meetings display all those personalities at the same time. Freezing out the one teacher whom he despised (usually a woman) showing his plucky courageous side to those teachers (usually men) he feared and still managing to run the entire meeting.

On the two occasions when my husband physically threatened him as a teen or broke down and cried my son would immediately back down and actually try and make his dad feel better... .I think he felt in control at those moments because my husband lost his. If my husband had actually hurt my son he would never have been able to forgive himself and my kid would have won. Not every parent wants to get into fights with their child. Some of us will try everything to avoid getting physical because it never ends up well.

In my opinion, it's more about the way a person with BPD 'sees' their world and not a lot about the parenting.

[pessim-optimist]

I guess I feel a certain sense of understanding for you that comes, possibly, from our perspective as step-parents.

I agree with this. I am also a step-parent and looking at the history, I could see some contributing factors to SD developing BPD: her sensitive nature, an early head-injury, trauma of divorce, some ineffective parenting and more - neither of which would have "caused" BPD on its own, and I believe that had she not been pre-disposed to developing BPD, she would have grown up with some issues perhaps, but she would have been otherwise healthy.

Did those things contribute to her developing BPD? Absolutely. Did those things cause it? No.

There is another aspect to the step-parenting approach: I was confident in not letting SD abuse me. So, I had her respect. I did not have a connection with her, though. So, she respected me, but largely avoided me and basically just tolerated my presence, because I was married to her dad with whom she was close.

So, was that effective? As for my ability to help her - no. It wasn't until after I started learning the tools and skills in the books on BPD and this site that I started making a connection with her.

And another interesting piece of the puzzle - she had been pretty volatile and even violent with her mother since childhood, but was mostly ok and in control of her behaviors around her dad whom she was close to and respected. Then, she met her future husband and got married, and her behaviors got progressively worse, as he did not have good boundaries, and that's when her behaviors started spiraling out of control even with her dad, which he did not tolerate, but it started putting a strain on their relationship and it went steadily down-hill.

So, what is my bottom-line? Dealing with BPD is not intuitive and we all need to learn and improve skills to deal with it effectively. And even after that, there is hope, but no guarantees. Looking into the past to see cause and effect to be able to improve is good. Looking into the past to find guilt or to blame ourselves usually doesn't help.

[qcarolr]

In my opinion, it's more about the way a person with BPD 'sees' their world and not a lot about the parenting.

My experience is that my DD28's 'normal' is quite different than mine. She has struggled since very early childhood with perceptions of experiences not matching others. Makes it really difficult to respond when our experiences of the same moment are so different. Yes, I made many mistakes as her parent -- I just did not understand what was going on inside her -- well still only can know what she chooses to share with me. All the rest is a guess.

There are many blocks for my DD in relating to others, and to herself, that have nothing to do with how she was parented, neighbored, schooled, bullied, being the bully, etc. It is not a vacuum we all live in. Once I got past blaming myself for all wrong with DD, and could let those comments including blaming me float on by, things have gotten better for me. And in this way better in my relationship with DD.

DD is still struggling a lot. Though she has found her place among a community of others in much the same perceptive chaos that she seems to live in. When I am able to be a validating influence in her life, and enforce the needed boundaries with compassion, she has gradually stopped blaming me. She is an adult -- it is not all about me as her parent.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[enlighten me]

Hi peace

I have seen poor parenting techniques from both my uBPD exs. My exgf rewards bad behaviour as she feels guilty telling her kids off. If she does then she will go and get them a treat so they like her again. My ex wife would just ignore the kids or scream at them if they were disturbing her.

I was the enforcer of boundaries with my sons and they have turned out ok. I worked away a lot so her influence hasnt turned them BPD.

Yes a parents behaviour and lack of boundaries can lead to long term behaviour issues but unless the child is predisposed to BPD then in my opinion the likelyhood of them developing BPD is negligible. That is unless there in an abusive situation.

You read a lot on here about people beating themselves up as they blame themselves and this is natural as a parent as you are responsible for your childs wellbeing. My eldest has renal failure and I blamed myself for this as I believed it was my genetics that influenced this. I had no reason to believe this but still the thought was there. Sometimes we just have to accept our children are the way they are  and no matter how hard we tried there was nothing we could have done to change it.

[Eggdad]

My dd was 7 when she started showing clear signs of emotional dysregulation. She saw a psy every week when she was 8, 9 and 10, as well as a counseler at school. Her mom and I tried to help her but it wasn't until she was 20 yo that my wife's therapist finally mentioned BPD to us for the first time. Until then nothing we did helped dd because we were not addressing her on an emotional level, using validation and other BPD useful tools.

Dd was born with mental characteristics that make her exquisitely vulnerable to developing BPD. She would have developed BPD in the vast majority of family environments. Given her high sensitivity and slow return to base, normal everyday life was invalidating to her, from her earliest age. It is not her fault and it is no it ours either.

It took me a whole year after I learned about BPD to stop blaming myself. In that period I also understood how really scary and incomprehensible the world looks through dd's mindset. Let's quit the blame game and start looking ahead. All along, both myself and dd have been doing the best we can given who we are and the knowledge we had at that time. At the same time, both myself and dd can and must do better by learning and applying new skills, at the pace that we can handle.

[lever.]

I don't think blaming ourselves or judging any other parent gets us anywhere.

Society as a whole is only too ready to blame everything on the parents-particularly the mother.

I am really sorry if any parent already feeling vulnerable has been upset by implied blaming on this site.

What is different is taking an honest dispassionate look at our own responses and working hard to develop the most useful responses.

This requires a high degree of honesty with ourselves.

Parenting a young person with highly unstable emotions is extremely difficult-it is hardly surprising that people make errors.

We are all doing the very best we can at any one time and we all need to try harder.

[lbjnltx]

I am really sorry if any parent already feeling vulnerable has been upset by implied blaming on this site.

Me too!

What is different is taking an honest dispassionate look at our own responses and working hard to develop the most useful responses.

This requires a high degree of honesty with ourselves.

Parenting a young person with highly unstable emotions is extremely difficult-it is hardly surprising that people make errors.

We are all doing the very best we can at any one time and we all need to try harder.

While we were definitely not perfect in our parenting (most all of us agree with this) sometimes we find it difficult to accept responsibility for what we needed to have done differently.  By accept responsibility I mean acknowledging, learning, and apologizing to my child for mistakes I made.  When I did this with my daughter the affects were nothing less than magnificent.  I still apologize for making mistakes... .it is my duty to her as a role model and keeps the relationship clear of unnecessary obstacles. 

lbj