Do non BPD grandmas say things like this?

[MiserableDaughter]

I always get confused as to if I'm just oversensitive to things my uBPD mom says or do "normal" grandmas say/do such stuff too? My son is 2.5. If he doesn't hug her or kiss her she says "ok, then grandma will leave" or "ok, you don't like grandma" or "you don't love grandma." And the poor kid goes and hugs her.

Or he says "no, I like grandma." The other day we were out at lunch and he was playing some games on a console at the table which he loves when he goes to this restaurant. So she goes "ohhh, see you're not talking to grandma! You don't like grandma! She's gonna leave." I literally cringe when I hear that stuff cause it's so triggering... .I reacted and said "it's fine mom. He just likes these games." And get face went into this sad passive aggressive mode because I said that... What did I say wrong? Do normal grandmas do this stuff too? I have no clue but my gut says no... .!

[Turkish]

Well... .I hesitate to define what's "normal" but in this case your mom is asking her grandson responsible for her feelings, and that can be harmful if he really thinks he is supposed to bt (rather than saying, "ok, bye!". Do you think you can have a talk to your mom apart from your son? If you experienced behaviors like this as a child, and I can't imagine you not experiences something like this, I understand that it will be hard to assert yourself. It's very Waifish ("rescue me" behavior on her part.

My mom used to make waifish comments to my kids. "The baby doesn't remember me!" Or when they got a little older, "I'm surprised they remembered me this time!" In front of the kids. She hasn't gone as far as your mom has, though. My mom only sees the kids about every three months though.

[Harri]

Hi MD.  I don't think this is unique to g-ma's with BPD, but this behavior is total crap.  Your instincts are right.  You mother is trying to control your child with emotional blackmail.  I think Turkish is kind to recommend talking to her about it apart from your son, but I would take a far more direct approach and tell her, right in front of your son, to stop playing mind games with him and leave him be. 

I had to do the same with my nephew and some well intentioned but seriously damaged people who used to try to force him to hug, kiss, etc.  I was careful to watch my nephew's response... .he went from standing with his head down and wringing his little hands from anxiety because he really did not want to or wanted to keep playing to holding his little head up high and confidently saying "No thank you" or going back to his activity.

Seriously, I've read your other posts and they are heart breaking.  Your mother is using your son the very same way she used you as a child... .and look at how difficult, upset and confused you feel.  Imagine being a toddler.

I understand the fear of speaking up and of not wanting to upset your mother, I had one who was very good at emotional blackmail.  What are you afraid will happen if you say something and she gets upset?  Let's explore this a bit.  I know you want to move far away, and that will help, but what are you going to do when she wants to visit?  Moving will reduce the frequency of the violations but it will not stop her from being who she is.  What, other than proximity, is keeping you so tied to your mother?  Let's work on that part and figure out ways for you to take care of you and your defenseless little son.  You both are worth it (oh yeah... .so is your hubby!)   

[pessim-optimist]

I am not sure if this kind of behavior is limited to grandmas w/BPD or not. What I do know is that it is not a healthy behavior.

Or he says "no, I like grandma."

Congratulations to your son! That is a response of a healthy kid. It's worth the while keeping him that way.

There are two messages in your mother's communications:

1. 'You don't love me/like me, because you aren't doing what I want.' (or 'to show me you love me, you need to do what I want.'

2. 'If you don't do what I want, I will leave (abandon you).'

Both are toxic, because not only do they teach your son to be responsible for his grandma's feelings (as Turkish said) they also teach that love=compliance and if you don't comply, you get punished.

That could set up an early foundation for poor boundaries (being compliant regardless of one's own values/wants/wishes and afraid to say no for fear of rejection/abandonment/punishment).

I agree with others that having grown up with your mother, it must be hard for you to assert yourself against this behavior. It is interesting, though, how seeing a child (especially our own) in the same situation makes us see these things for what they are.

You did not have the benefit of someone protecting you.   You can break the chain of repetition on your son's behalf now.

[MiserableDaughter]

Hello,

Thanks so much for your responses... .I HAVE confronted her on numerous occasions but it just ends up very ugly and she doesn't understand at all. She just gives examples (or makes up examples) of other friends of hers who are grandmas and basically own their grandkids lives, and apparently their daughters are very happy about it. She literally lies. I know she makes up stories and examples. Lol funny thing is, these comments don't even scratch the surface. When my son was 4 months old she said to him, "your not going to scare me like all other men do, will you?" All sorts of things like that. I limit their contact to once in maybe 2-3 weeks for a couple hours. But I've tried the confrontation route and she doesn't get it at all. Goes into martyr/rage/waif/queen etc! Very scary rages even now... .When she says those things to my son, though, makes my skin crawl because yes of course she's done that to me x 10000000. If I didn't hug her when I said good morning it was a crime. Anything I didn't agree with turned into this giant rage of how I didn't love her anymore and how I wasn't her friend and how we'd never get along when I got older... .Ugh... .Throw in fake illnesses. I could go on and on, but I won't. My issue is more understanding if I'm more triggered cause of my experiences or because it's genuinely screwed up... .

[Turkish]

So she basically split your son at 4 months? Wow. 

It might be good to limit contact here even more. I hope you take her comments about other families with a grain of salt.

[littlebirdcline]

Normal for a BPD grandma, I guess, but not normal in most healthy grandmothers.  I remember my father's mother (who I suspect may have been BPD) telling my brother when he asked what she was getting him for his 5th birthday, "Nothing.  You didn't get me anything for my birthday."  Recently, I have found it very interesting to watch my BPDm and relatively healthy mil (she takes medication for anxiety, but nothing serious) interact differently with my son.  They both love him dearly, but my mother is the only one who makes comments all the time like you describe.  She constantly makes comments about how he loves my inlaws or my father more than her.  After a few months of NC, she made it a point to say to him several times over Skype that she was afraid she was never going to see him again.  He is 5!  I am still kicking myself for not correcting her on it right then.  Even my therapist, who really wants me to try and work it out, said I should have said something.  But we are so trained to let them say whatever they want, it's terrifying to speak up.  At least, it's that way for me.  But I think for the sake of our children we have to.  My son is very perceptive and sensitive.  I think I've told the story in another post here that a while back he saw a UNICEF commercial and cried so much about the starving babies I had to go online right then and give money to get him to stop.  I know whatever she says to him is going to register and have and effect in some way.  I know yours is younger, but I think we don't give our kids enough credit for picking up on things at very early ages.  My mother and I are in week three of NC again, and the biggest reason is my son. 

I wish you luck!

[pessim-optimist]

My issue is more understanding if I'm more triggered cause of my experiences or because it's genuinely screwed up... .

I'd say it's probably both. 

I HAVE confronted her on numerous occasions but it just ends up very ugly and she doesn't understand at all.

It is commendable that you have tried to put an end to her behavior. 

I wouldn't expect her to understand, though, and she doesn't really need to. It's not even necessary for her to agree with you or like what you want for your son. It is your right to set limits on what you are willing to expose your son to.

For that to happen, what you need is to state what you want/don't want around your son, and devise an enforceable boundary around that.

For example: "I am sorry you feel unloved/left out when my son doesn't give you a hug/doesn't pay attention to you. We want him to give hugs and attention freely, not out of obligation. If you can accept that and be polite we will stay, otherwise we will need to leave." (I would stay calm and reassuring to my son, and if needed, I'd leave at the first sign of her dysregulating with: "I love you, mom, we will see you when you feel better."

As with all boundaries, it is very likely that she will be upset, she may even rage or escalate her behaviors in the beginning for a while. Setting boundaries and upholding them is hard work. The important part is to have it all planned out and follow through every time.

Eventually, she will accept your boundary even if she doesn't like it. She will test it from time to time, but for the most part, your life should be easier in that department.

[aubin]

There's nothing overly sensitive about your reaction to your mother's comments. My uBPD mother makes similar comments to or about my son. When this first started happening -- when he was only 1 month old! -- i broke contact with her, initially out of panic because the mama bear in me just reared up and I would NOT let her do to my son what she did to me. But then it just became a practical matter because I needed to figure out how to not be so triggered by her and how I was going to be able to set and maintain boundaries with her, and to figure these things out I needed time away from her.

Now when she says these kinds of things, my plan is to calmly say, "Please don't talk to my son that way. He is not responsible for making you feel loved/worthy/happy/whatever." If she tries to argue or continue to say such things, I've given myself permission to just leave.   

[nomom4me]

No, this is not normal.  For us it's normal, but emotional blackmail isn't normal grandparent stuff.  It sounds to me like you are still in the FOG, I have a 1 year old and all the hormones and new feelings for my baby have clouded my vision a bit, but I did a couple years of very limited contact and am at a place where a couple short visits a year is enough for me.

One thing that helped me get to a point of not wanting my moms presence in her life was letting her follow through on her threats, if your mom threatens to leave, let her leave.  I missed holidays a couple times because my mom put ridiculous restrictions on my presence.  If there are any hoops to jump through, just walk away.  My mantra for any contact with my mom is "keep it simple".  Last easter she "needed" to send a bunny costume before easter, she doesn't have my address for good reason.  We had planned to go to her house for a couple hours on easter but I told her we can't go if she is going to push boundaries.  She pouted and threw a toddler-style fit, said she would return the outfit.  Fine, return it.  Our moms are always going to be all wound up over something, if me or my kid are the target we just steer clear.

It's amazing to me that my mom never realized that winning these little battles meant she lost the war.  I don't want to play games to win her approval, I've learned to live without it. 

[funfunctional]

I cringe reading it.   Early training for "grandmom's feelings are important and at age 2.5 I am responsible for showing her I love her and that she doesn't feel rejected".  Hmmm.   Sounds a little heavy duty for a hug from a toddler.

BPD or not;  think she needs to get off the kids case.

oh boy.