Just venting about our budget

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My uBPDw & I are taking Dave Ramsey's FPU course and are trying to come up with a budget.

If you've never heard of him (I hadn't) he teaches 1. Eliminate Debt and 2. Live on a budget.

His budget process includes things like keep family budget meetings short (17 minutes) to reduce the conflicts and keep one spouse from controlling the process (and controlling the relationship through the budget... .)

So I went through and put together the first budget, we talked, my w said it was important to her to give the kids pizza every week, so I added a pizza entry ($20/week).  I can't stand Little Ceasars pizza, but that's what we get for the kids on Friday and I usually just have leftovers.  We have our family budget meeting and go over things.

Weeks go by and now she's creating her own version of the first draft of the budget... .OK, putting aside the annoyance of her not bothering to look at my 1st draft (Dave say's it'll take a few months to get things right).  She's trying to fight battles before she finishes her draft of the budget... .I sing in a group, the dues are $160 a year and she keeps trying to ask where is her $160... .

I just don't know how to have any sort of discussion with someone who can compartmentalize things so much that there's no similarity between my spending $160 for something I want, yet her spending $960 for something she wants is SO different because it's for the kids... .

I don't think this is the typical validation issue... .What kind of relationship can we have when she can't connect any two thoughts together into a cohesive picture of how we view the world... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

I applaud you for trying, and I personally believe that eliminating debt and budgeting are excellent financial strategies. 

At the same time, based on my experience with my uBPDw, I would be surprised if you have any success getting your wife to stick to a budget (if you two can even agree on one).  I have worked with my wife on budgets multiple times throughout our almost 18-year marriage and eventually gave up. 

We have been able to agree on budgets and the game plan for implementing them, but when it comes time to actually stick to the budget and keep records of amounts spent my uBPDw has never been able to follow through and actually execute the financial restraint and recordkeeping that are required to actually follow a budget.  We even read one of Dave Ramsey’s books and both agreed that it was a great idea.  I suspect uBPDw’s budgeting difficulties fall into 2 categories: 1) lack of impulse control (she just can’t resist buying all that stuff that’s on sale, even if we don’t really need it and it’s not in the budget); and 2) she found it invalidating to track her spending and write down dollars spent because she feels shame about busting the budget with her un-budgeted spending and unworthy to have money to spend in the first place.

All these difficulties with budgeting, and I still feel finically fortunate b/c my uBPDw does not spend ridiculous money like some of the spouses I read about on these boards and we have never really been through difficult financial circumstances.  Eventually my solution was that I decided that I would be 100% responsible for making sure we give to our church and charitable causes and save sufficiently for my retirement, and if that is properly taken care of (which it has been so far), I wouldn’t worry about the rest.  This has been working for me for the past 5 years or so. 

Good luck!

[takingandsending]

Hi IsIt,

I know how you feel, but it can be done if you hang in there. Like WT notes, you have to find out what's really central or important to your well being, ensure those things are met and then be as non-attached to the rest as you can. Otherwise, it becomes one long and torturous JADE/invalidation experience. Budgets and spending is a hot topic for couples not dealing with mental illness. For those of us in relationship with pwBPD, it is rocket fuel.

I am on the opposite shore as you. I push to have small expenditures for the kids, like eating breakfast or lunch at a restaurant once a month or going to a toy store, while she spends $1000's of dollars on her home business or self-help classes. And I get reprimanded for not following the budget. It's an area that I don't try to explain. I do what my heart tells me and accept that her factual existence based upon her feelings will never follow mathematical laws. For the record, I still hold anger about the disparity in spending, so I am not off the hook on this issue yet - just have learned how to cope, learned when to put my foot on the brakes before we drive over the edge of the financial cliff, and thank my lucky stars that we have little debt if not great savings.

Most important - don't JADE! When she asks you a no-win sort of question like the one you stated, don't be baited into explaining yourself, as it will only serve to invalidate what she has already decided is true based on her feelings. Try SET - I could see how $160 seems like a lot. Budgeting our money is hard work, and it feels like we have to pass on a lot of things that we want. If we work together on it, I think we can find areas to spend less so that you can have some money for yourself too.

[Notwendy]

Dealing with budgeting is difficult, even when both people are emotionally healthy and have good communication skills and even when they both agree with Dave Ramsey ( which I am familiar with and think it is a good budget plan).

This is because people have many emotions attached to money, grew up in different situations, and because it can be seen as a position of power in the family. Be careful with this one.

It has also been difficult to completely agree on a budget with my H, even though we both are in agreement on some large principals, such as the debt issues that Dave Ramsey and other budget plans address. Like you, he sees something for the kids as something he gives to me, and doesn't feel that we need equal personal budgets since he is generous with "me and the kids" as he sees it. He also feels he deserves something for himself as the breadwinner and I agree with that too. However, as the stay at home mother, there is something invalidating as not being seen as an individual who contributes, even if it does not come with a paycheck. Lumping something for the kids in with something for me sends a message that I am a dependent, just like the kids.

My H has spent what I consider to be a large sum on himself, and this is when we argued about the idea of lumping me in with the kids. Yes, my H is generous with the kids and I am grateful, and he also deserves to have something for himself. His tendency to think in black and white terms meant that if I had any issues with his spending that this meant I thought he should have nothing and just give it all to me and the kids. I never meant that.

It was about being seen as an equal contributing partner, beyond the dollar value of who earned what. My H's ability to work without having to worry about the house and kids was because I was at home full time taking care of everything that concerned that. Although I was also willing to work, and did at times, when I did, I had to arrange child care and then come home and still do everything, and I made less money than he did. My argument was not so much about money than wanting to be recognized as an equal contributing partner, and that my work in the home had value in terms of higher pay for him since he could focus primarily on his work.

I think budgets work best when it fits the styles of the partners. If one is type A and counts every penny, and the other is type B, not counting every penny but still maintaining a budget with some wiggle room, then you might have issues. Since plans to be "equal" have not worked well, and I am content with what I have, I accept that my H has to feel that he is getting his share- whatever that is- and also realize that he does not do this to the extent of causing major damage. I have to accept that what he thinks is fair may not be the same as what I think. However, the danger of not acknowleging the wife's contribution in an equal manner is that it can damage the relationship.

I have also seen this appear to be very imbalanced with a spouse with BPD where one person spends a lot and and/or does not contribute to the tasks of running the house and family much. My parents had a traditional marriage- typical of their era. Dad worked. However, the bulk of the income seemed to be for mom. (with BPD) to  This resulted in almost two separate families, with mom being extravagant and my father doing without. In addition, dad took up most of the job of the home and kids. Not understanding what was going on with her, this seemed unfair from our point of view, but it was what they chose.

If your wife is in general agreement with Dave Ramsey's budget and can stick to some form of it, even if it isn't exactly the way you want it, then you are doing quite well, IMHO. If not, then you may have to live with some imbalance considering your circumstances. Even if your wife isn't agreeing with your budget, but is willing to stick to one that she makes, then this is great.

Doesn't Dave Ramsey discuss the idea of each spouse having a personal "me" fund? Other budgets do. It isn't so much about the amount than the idea that each spouse is an equal partner, with needs of his or her own.

[waverider]

We tried all types of budgeting, as we have very little in the way of finances. The only thing that work was me taking over completely.

pwBPD often live on impulse and neediness, and then make excuses for it in hindsight. This precludes the capability to stick to any agreed budget for many. 'Its for the kids" is the most common bush to hide behind. Justification for buying something for herself will be covered by equally blowing money on something for you and the kids at the same time (a bribe if you like).

Hopefully you can get it to work, but dont underestimate a pwBPDs inability to stick to agreements, and their love of "exceptions"

[Notwendy]

For my H, there's a sense of "never enough" which I think us a projection. For much of the time he doesn't go overboard but occasionally something switches on in him and he has to have something to the point of obsession. I might splurge on a few clothes but he will buy a whole bunch of them at once. He has spent way more money on himself than I have on jusr me -however I think he sees this as matching what he has spent on me+kids.

I think he should have things for himself. It just seems like there is an odd quality to his spending. He also can be secretive. He makes decisions - some not bad- like to save some but does not tell me. I think he feels that this would be asking permission.

I think some of the money issues with a pwBPD are about power and self worth.

[ColdEthyl]

I watch my H's uBPDs spend money like water and be in complete control of the coin purse. He spends money to 'buy' affection from his daughter and blows it on stuff he wants, not needs. There isn't any 'long view' with him in relations to money.

On the other hand, my dBPDh gives me all of his money, rarely asks for a thing, and lets me be in control of it because he knows he's bad with money.

[takingandsending]

'Its for the kids" is the most common bush to hide behind. Justification for buying something for herself will be covered by equally blowing money on something for you and the kids at the same time (a bribe if you like).

Ha, waverider!

You revealed one of my wife's tricks. She occasionally really blows up our budget by splurging on stuff for me and the kids. I never know whether to say Thank You or What the heck? So it is just her impulsive thinking overriding everything we agreed to in a clever way that will keep her from receiving blame. Gotta admit, it's a creative, maladaptive coping strategy.

Most of the time, I roll with those punches, but I hate when I have to put the brakes on something she already offered to the boys, like a really nice violin most recently. And I really hate getting blamed for my being the cause of the problem when I do put on the brakes - my unwillingness to be open to the universe manifesting blah, blah blah. If I ever pulled that sort of logic on her, I would be an invalidating villain.

[empath]

We went through FPU, too. It was fine when we were going through it. UBPDh was required to go through it by his supervising leadership at church, so he had to make them happy. I was a bit annoyed at the whole process because I had been telling him the same things for years, but he ignored what I said. Much of our debt is due to his spending when he is feeling vulnerable.

Anyway, he does get defensive when I ask any question about the finances. So, I learned to defuse it by saying that he seemed to be a bit defensive and asking about how he felt. One of the other things that Dave Ramsey noted was that the discussion about money are not just about money -- there are emotions involved. H hates planning for things, too, so that makes it difficult.

Unfortunately, after the course, we have not done the budget summit or talked much about what needs to be paid when. He has been handling things on his own, and he hasn't used the credit cards.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

It has also been difficult to completely agree on a budget with my H, even though we both are in agreement on some large principals, such as the debt issues that Dave Ramsey and other budget plans address. Like you, he sees something for the kids as something he gives to me, and doesn't feel that we need equal personal budgets since he is generous with "me and the kids" as he sees it. He also feels he deserves something for himself as the breadwinner and I agree with that too. However, as the stay at home mother, there is something invalidating as not being seen as an individual who contributes, even if it does not come with a paycheck. Lumping something for the kids in with something for me sends a message that I am a dependent, just like the kids.

With my w it's not a black/white issue... .it's a "what I want now" issue.  When we talk of pizza it's all about "what she wants to give the kids".  Then later she'll bring up my dues and want to know where her money is.  I just don't get how she can be so compartmentalized the there's never any connection between the two.

If your wife is in general agreement with Dave Ramsey's budget and can stick to some form of it, even if it isn't exactly the way you want it, then you are doing quite well, IMHO. If not, then you may have to live with some imbalance considering your circumstances. Even if your wife isn't agreeing with your budget, but is willing to stick to one that she makes, then this is great.

Doesn't Dave Ramsey discuss the idea of each spouse having a personal "me" fund? Other budgets do. It isn't so much about the amount than the idea that each spouse is an equal partner, with needs of his or her own.

Yes Ramsey discusses a "me" fund.  However, with my w it's all about control.  What am I hiding?  Why would I need a "me" fund so that I can spend money without her knowing about it?

[takingandsending]

Hello, Isit.

Then later she'll bring up my dues and want to know where her money is.  I just don't get how she can be so compartmentalized the there's never any connection between the two.

Feelings=facts for the pwBPD. So, there may never be a connection to understand. You need to realize that you are catching the tail end of the thought process, and that thought process initiated god only knows where. Most likely, as suggested by others, the thought was an impulse of "Oh I really want that", followed by disappointment (sadness/anger) over not having the funds for it. For non's, that thought process might cycle a few more times and then we either accept or start strategizing how we can obtain whatever we saw. For the pwBPD, the thought process chain reacts over and over into the unfairness of not having our needs met, the insensitivity of others in not helping us get our needs met, etc. What she is communicating to you at the end of that process is really unintelligible. The sooner you give up on trying to find logic in it, the better of you will be. The best you can do is try to come close to the feeling behind it, disappointment, sadness, frustration. Everyone feels those things when we can't have what we want, so you extend your sympathy with the situation, empathize with the feeling, and then express the truth that you perceive, i.e. we can't always get everything we want, but we can work together to try to get some of what we want. I wouldn't use those words, as they are too invalidating to a pwBPD, but this is the general idea behind SET.

Can you think of a way that you could approach your wife using SET to talk about the budget? Please feel free to try different dialogues here; there are some people on this site who are excellent at supporting you in finding ways to approach that can validate your wife's feelings while still expressing things that you need to state.

Hope this helps.

[AlwaysFrustrated]

Good luck on this process. 

One time when attempting to go over the budget she was getting pissed with me. She then burst out, "I am just so angry seeing how much of your money I spend!"

A small fuse popped in my head that time.

Erros I have made:

- Not including her in the bills or investment decisions.  So I will include her now.  She will tells the financial planner she doesn't understand it and I should make the decision. But rare fights

- Let her determine how to do her own budget.  Whatever you choose she will choose the opposite. 

Good luck!

[waverider]

Yes Ramsey discusses a "me" fund.  However, with my w it's all about control.  What am I hiding?  Why would I need a "me" fund so that I can spend money without her knowing about it?

At the end of the day that is her problem. She can only get her way, if you let her. Then it sets a precedent.

[flowerpath]

Budget.   For far too long I just expected my H to turn around one day, and take some responsibility. Long story short:  IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

I started an “us” fund – a separate account at a different bank where I am depositing as much money from my salary as I can for our family, to protect all of us from my H’s spending habits, so we will have money when we need it.  I am talking about money mainly for food, toiletries, gasoline, and clothes here - not fun money. 

My H won’t even discuss a budget, and rarely looks at our bank account figures - so no, he hasn't yet figured out that I am saving money to protect us from his rampant spending.  Will cross that bridge when he gets to it.

I cannot even count the number of times I’ve called him about a low balance and warned him not to use the debit card. 

Two weeks ago when I made that call once again, I decided that I had done it for the last time. 

There’s enough for his gasoline, any trip to the grocery store he might make, and a generous amount for him to just spend.  But now, when I see the balance get low, I am not going to say a word.   I’ll let the cashier or the ATM tell him the debit card was declined!