How do I leave? I've had enough

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've posted on and off in here.  I've been married to my BPD wife for 13 years now.  Things really got bad a month or so ago, and she blew up at me and said maybe we should separate.  I said, "maybe so".  Well, that was a massive betrayal in her mind.  I would have gone but I refuse to leave the children with her.  Even her psychiatrist agrees she has BPD and managed to bring the subject up with her, and she agreed she has it.  After that I resolved to figure it out because I wouldn't leave the kids with her.  She got ok for a few weeks.

The last few days she's been up and down, and it's not fair.  I'm over it.  I want to move on and remove the poison.  Tonight she had to pick me up from a car rental place - I rented a car to drive home early from a business trip to please her, but she's mad she had to pick me up.  She was swearing at the kids to get them in the car.  She's just ... .excuse me, but a BIT%H.  I've had enough. Emotionally I am already gone.  How do I get her out of the house and file for divorce? 

What's holding me back is that if I ask her to leave, she won't, and the cops will end up here, and I'll probably have to leave.  I don't want to end up with her with custody ... .then the kids will suffer and be poisoned against me. 

Any advice?

[ASD]

I've posted on and off in here.  I've been married to my BPD wife for 13 years now.  Things really got bad a month or so ago, and she blew up at me and said maybe we should separate.  I said, "maybe so".  Well, that was a massive betrayal in her mind.  I would have gone but I refuse to leave the children with her.  Even her psychiatrist agrees she has BPD and managed to bring the subject up with her, and she agreed she has it.  After that I resolved to figure it out because I wouldn't leave the kids with her.  She got ok for a few weeks.

The last few days she's been up and down, and it's not fair.  I'm over it.  I want to move on and remove the poison.  Tonight she had to pick me up from a car rental place - I rented a car to drive home early from a business trip to please her, but she's mad she had to pick me up.  She was swearing at the kids to get them in the car.  She's just ... .excuse me, but a BIT%H.  I've had enough. Emotionally I am already gone.  How do I get her out of the house and file for divorce? 

What's holding me back is that if I ask her to leave, she won't, and the cops will end up here, and I'll probably have to leave.  I don't want to end up with her with custody ... .then the kids will suffer and be poisoned against me. 

Any advice?

[lolli]

You need to consult a lawyer and find out what your rights are and the best way for you to proceed in your specific situation. That would be the first thing I would do before actually doing anything. 

[Warney]

Make sure you have enough money to live and even start paying lawyers before you split. Mine emptied accounts day after we split. Lucky for you, you found this place. Also take any evidence to a safe place like a mate she hates or parents place. Get copies of all bank stuff and things along those lines . Good Luck

[going places]

Lawyer up.

[StrongDadOf2]

ASD - Don't be too rash.  Take inventory of the situation and collect yourself.  Making big decisions in a hurry are going to leave you in a state where you can't effectively care for yourself and the kids.  Be sure that all of your financial needs and kids' needs are being taken care of and DON'T BE THE ONE TO LEAVE.  That can look very bad on the father's part in most courts.  I'm currently working through the book, "Splitting:Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  I recommend reading that, working with a therapist yourself, and talking with an attorney before doing anything beyond helping her de-escalate.

[sweetheart]

Hello ASD,

If you haven't already, post for info and advice on the legal boards, they are amazing over there. All the boards are great, but leaving and divorcing someone with this disorder can be a minefield, and there are senior members who will give you clear, concise experienced guidance.

If I was in your position with children that need to be protected, I would take my time and work out exactly what you need to do to protect yourself and the children from the inevitable fallout that will ensue if you split.

You are posting on the Undecided board so I am also wondering is there a part of you that doesn't want to split at all and wants to see if things could maybe improve?

13 years is a long time and in your post you say that things have gotten bad in the last few months, what were things like before this recent dysregulation for you and the children?

[sweetheart]

Hi ASD,

I've just read your intro and back posts and you sound very clear about wanting to leave. ( sorry should have done that before my previous reply )

If your aim is to get custody of the children and it seems like it is then you will need a meticulously planned exit. Start the ball rolling with seeking out a lawyer who perhaps specialises in work with "high conflict couples" or can recommend someone who does. And then hot foot it over to the legal boards. 

Good luck, take care and keep posting.

[ogopogodude]

Sweetheart is dead on with "planning your exit meticulously".

You don't want to enter the world of PAS (parent alienation syndrome).

The kids are young enough that they will take the  path of least resistance. And if that means orienting on mom's side, ... .they will.

Not that they do not love you, or what not, but they are too afraid of standing up to mom.

I planned my exit pretty good enough to get where I am now. But I could have done it even better.

I used social services (The Ministry of Children and Family Development) and asked for an agent very well versed in the behaviours of a BPD parent and its effects on those around the BPD afflicted person. I also asked SPECIFICALLY for TWO agents to be present when I arrived to divulge my information to them. When there are 2 agents listening to your story, ... .THINGS get done. TRUST me on this one.  ASK for TWO agents to listen to your story.  If you only have one, then your case will be put on the "we (I) will get back to soon"... .which really means never.

[sweetheart]

ogo can you say a bit more about having two people present listening and how this helped things get done ?

Again what sort of role did SS take in helping you with your children ?

I ask because I think for me as well as other parents would find this very helpful ( if you have it in a link I would love to read it )

[ogopogodude]

ogo can you say a bit more about having two people present listening and how this helped things get done ?

Again what sort of role did SS take in helping you with your children ?

I ask because I think for me as well as other parents would find this very helpful ( if you have it in a link I would love to read it )

My lawyer said that in Family court videos and audios cannot be entered and seen by a judge but they can be in Trial (which is a Supreme Court process, which is one up on Family Court). I live in Canada, so be aware of my statements as I relate things to canadian law --which is way more seemingly tedious than usa--).  Simply put, my L said to me that judges simply do not want to see videos and such on rages, and so on. I live in a no-fault province which means u can divorce your spouse for any reason like leaving the toothpaste cap off all the time.

But in my situation, which is unique in that there is a PATTERN of UNILATERAL domestic violence which is strangely enough "okay" ... .and the judicial system doesn't care, ... UNLESS there are children involved. That is the KEY.  If you have kids, ... and a spouse is acting like a nut-ball in terms of emotional abuse, physical, and so on, ... .then videos and audios CAN be admitted only on an exceptional basis and that being the children's welfare.  But my L says that I can only do this in Family Court if I act on my own behalf.  If my L tries to admit this evidence, then this is typically against the rules of presenting evidence. But if I present it with my iPhone or iPad or even a memory stick in front of the judge, and because I am NOT a lawyer, judges tend to be more forgiving to one that does not know the process inside a court room.  The judge MAY want to see the video IF the child is in any way in harm's way of one the spouse.  

To answer your question: why two agents... .?  Well I tried going to just one.  Two years passed as I waited for this dumb-azzed agent to get the ball rolling. It never did.  So ... .squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I INSISTED on two agents, ... .and I specified that so-and-so agent was informed of my situation, and she never did anything.  Both agents looked at each other, rolled their eyes (as if to say, "oh, ... .you got bubble-head who just is here to put in her 8-hour punch card time and then go home".  I was quite organized and had a check list with me:

1.  are two agents in my presence?  If no, ... .wait until a second agent comes to listen as well

2.  have video tape and audio tapes on memory USB stick ready to give them (which I did)

3.  have the above ready to play on my laptop and iPhone and iPad.  (which I did, ... and i did not even have to play all of it, ... they looked at the evidence and both looked at each other, ... and said, ... ."Can we interview your children and you again in the near future?" I said yes  and they informed me that it only takes ONE parent to get their ability to interview the kids, even if other spouse says "no"... .)

4.  have an action list ready:

--what do I do now?

--what will YOU as agents of SS do now?

--How long will it take to hear back from you? (I even had my two agents SIGN MY paper that I had with me, ... .in other words, ... accountability was now in order meaning, ... that they couldn't put my case on a shelf and go for coffee and forget about me.

5. I had a list of contacts that they could verify my story. They actually never called one. They didn't need to. They believed me from the get-go.

Now, your 2nd Q was how did they help me?

They interviewed the kids, my wife (hesitantly) several times, me several times and us as a couple as well. My wife buried herself with SS.  She was rude, anger came out, she lied many times and so on.

(But i did all the above in a very special way that I prefer not to post but rather if you private message me.)

[JohnLove]

Good advice ogopogodude, it really is a minefield. My first born child succumbed to PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome)  :'(.  I am in Australia, and the Australian courts do not recognise or entertain the notion of PAS. I had 1 court ordered counselling session with my alienated daughter... .1?.

ASD, if you move out prepare to be painted blacker than BLACK to your children. "look what your father did to us" and that sort of garbage as soon as she has no punching bag and money becomes tight, or she begins to suffer the consequences of HER own actions and projects her suffering.

It is probably going to be very helpful to everyone (except possibly your wife in a legal sense) if she has been DIAGNOSED as BPD by an expert. My uBPDex was not, to the best of my knowledge... .I even subpoenaed all her medical records and got stuff going back to when she was 12 years old!

I didn't even know that BPD existed back then but I sure knew what HELL was.  

BPD is an insidiously tragic disorder ESPECIALLY when children are involved. How else does this disorder evolve to be passed onto the next generation of sufferers.  :'( :'( :'(

[Lucky Jim]

Agree, John Love, it's an incredibly complex disorder and a r/s with a pwBPD is likely to end badly.  I have two children with my BPDxW, both of whom have been brainwashed and suffer from Parental Alienation Syndrome.  Court has ordered counseling but my Ex refuses to cooperate and has a lawyer making legalistic arguments to avoid her participation.

ASD, there's no good time to leave.  The longer you stay, however, the more you are likely to suffer serious damage.  I stayed for my children and nearly destroyed myself emotionally, physically and financially in the process.  There comes a point where it is more painful to stay than it is to leave.  Only you know if you have reached that point, my friend.  If you have, you owe it to yourself to stop the bleeding, before it's too late.

Sorry to sound melodramatic, but it's a serious business.  It's not fun to crash land, believe me, as Harrison Ford can attest!

LuckyJim

[ASD]

I've just read your posts.  I am so appreciative of your advice and well wishes.  I have tears in my eyes.

I had tears in my eyes today sitting on a ride ad Disney, yea, the happiest place on earth, and she turned it to Hell.  She got passed that I took the kids on Test Track at Epcot before she got back to us - she had gone over to another ride to register a fast pass.  So she was mad at me.  Then, in line for the next ridge she unleashed on our daughter (9) about her hair.  The 2 of them have always had a tough relationship and it is becoming more and more clear that our son (7) is the favorite.  Our daughter is a pain in the butt about brushing her hair, etc ... .she's 9! Wife just laid into her verbally, telling her that she's the same as me, and that she can't stand either one of us.  On and on.  The little girl was crying, hurt.  I was told off for hugging her to comfort her, because that was perpetuating her nonsense. 

That I think is my breaking point.

Then again tonight with hair again.  Our daughter is just like me, and you can read her emotions on her face like a book.  She went to bed crying ... .crying on spring break vacation because "mommy's being mean to me".  How is that right? 

I have to get out.  I am going to talk to her psychiatrist, who agrees that she's BPD, and then talk to lawyers.  I won't leave the house.  I want her forced to leave the house and for me to get custody.  That's the only way otherwise I know I will be painted as the Devil immediately. 

I am so afraid of life for the kids after a split - won't they still have to see her? 

Can I get her institutionalized?

You've all been so helpful. 

It's not tolerable that every vacation, every party, every holiday, every special occasion be ruined.  When she doesn't see me smiling she blames me for being a miserable old man (I am graying a lot now), why don't I lighten up.  How can I?  I don't know when the next crisis will happen.  I am not romantic enough - why, how?  If I do something it's a waste of money or it's wrong.  Her birthday is next week.  That'll be fun - not.

[gomez_addams]

I recommend "SPLITTING"... .the how-to book for your situation.  I haven't read it all the way through, and haven't gone as far as hiring a lawyer. 

Yet.

But it's given me food for thought on what to expect down the road.

Gomez.

[sweetheart]

I'm really sorry that things are so awful for you all and I understand your heartache in relation to your daughter. Your daughter is defenceless, she only has you to make the right choices to protect her and keep her safe, as does your son.

Be careful ASD that you don't give anything away regarding your decision to split, staying to protect the children is a sound decision.

On the subject of having your wife detained, this can only usually happen if she is an active risk to herself or others. If she were yes you could as her nearest relative have her detained.

What do you hope to achieve from seeing her psychiatrist ? Has your wife given her P consent to discuss her issues with you ? It will be difficult if she hasn't, although you can still provide information about your wife's mental state that will have to be documented.

Do you or your children have a T, if not it might be something to consider to support you emotionally and help you with leaving?

Keep posting here and on legal.

[ASD]

After this weekend I've been thinking a lot about what to do and I think I know I need to go.  I don't think this life is healthy or appropriate. 

I've been on the fence because I know how horrendous things will get if I make the move.  I know my son adores his mother, he's so innocent and has such a pure heart it's amazing.  I realized a few months ago how I got into this relationship in the first place: I'm co-dependent.  With that realization I have been trying to fix myself and that has been perceived as distancing myself from her, not catering to her as much, which leads to explosions. 

I have never opened up to anyone and I think that's a part of my problem now.  I don't want to express myself to her because it is immediately a blame game or she becomes a martyr.  I don't want to talk to a "friend" (I don't have any real friends, my spouse being 1 reason of many) out of shame and I have always been skeptical of therapists.  I do go to the same psychiatrist as her - her idea.  She and he recently took my advice and looked into BPD and ... .guess what ... .she scored 8/9. 

Just tonight she told me he needs to change my meds cos I'm not right.  I was on an anti-anxiety med (Lexapro) and came off it.  Still on Wellbutrin.  I don't think they do a thing, but what do I know.  I got to the point today that I did actually look up therapists and I think I'll have to go see one.

Yesterday things were ok, no drama but no life either, normal.  Today I had to tell her that my sister - who lives across an ocean, who I don't talk to (cos of her) is pregnant.  Holy cow! If texts could kill!  I have been called a p@ssy, weak, been told she hates my family that's she's furious, that it's not fair.  The reason is that she wants another child and I won't do it.  I won't have another child with her and so she's pissed at me permanently, this triggered her. 

I think the problem with my expressing myself is partly rooted in the knowledge that bringing things up leads to me being held responsible for almost everything.  I am always on edge waiting for the next explosion too, so it's easier to keep my head down and not rock the boat.  Now it's become an ingrained habit but that's a problem because now she wants to be noticed, to be paid attention to and for me to be "in" to her.  I'm not because I am not "in" to anything.  I am "in" to keeping the peace and putting out fires.  Who has time for hobbies or a sex drive?

I know what I have to do.  I just have to grow a pair and do it. 

I wanted her detained to use the opportunity to get a restraining order or something, something to prevent her coming into the house and creating more of a scene.  I want her moved out and to leave us be.  I thought if she had been hospitalized it would make my case stronger to get sole custody. 

I can't imagine my kids' lives if we do separate.  What will the environment be like for them with her.  That's so unfair to them.

I don't know. 

All I know is that this can't continue.

[Panda39]

ASD,

Keep in mind that by leaving you are creating an alternate universe for your children.  Yes, they may have to spend some time with their mother but not 100% of the time.  They will have a stable, peaceful, home where they are loved and nurtured with dad.  You are acting on their behalf that's what good dads do.

If you want to know what it's like for a child to grow up with a BPD mom and enabling father check out some of the posts on the "Coping" Board.  By leaving you are giving your children another option.

I would also suggest therapy for your children because your divorce could be high conflict and could be very confusing for them.  It would be good if they had someone neutral to talk to and work things out with so therapy for the kids as well as yourself could be part of your plan.

Please visit the "Legal" board as you develop your plan, you can get lots of suggestions, strategies and advice.

Wishing you well,

Panda39

[letmeout]

Make sure you have enough money to live and even start paying lawyers before you split. Mine emptied accounts day after we split.

BPD people are very vengeful if you escape their clutches; mine also emptied the accounts and cashed in all the policies the day I left. Unfortunately, I did not recoup any of that in the divorce. However, freedom is priceless!

[ASD]

Do you think the kids should go to therapy individually or together?

I have lists of every policy and account we have.  When the time comes I'll split the accounts down the middle and take her off the relevant policies.  I am detail oriented so I am not worried too much about that. 

You're right and freedom and peace of mind are priceless.  She can have the money.  I want to make sure the kids are ok, and that I am left alone ... .finally. 

I worry that I won't get custody from a judge.  She isn't violent (yet).  She's hit me once or twice over the years, once with a phone in front of her mother.  She sounds venomous though when she is pissed and threatens violence. 

[Panda39]

In my SO's case his daughters were in therapy together but I'm sure that would be something to discuss with the therapist depending on the needs of your kids. 

The other way you could be proactive is with the kids' schools... .teachers... .school counselors... .keep them in the loop so they can support your kids too.

[ASD]

Good advice Panda. 

How do I get them into therapy without her knowing, or with her consent?

I have been stuck on this all day today and yesterday.   Today I started doubting myself, maybe I shouldn't go.  I know in my heart it's not going to get better though. 

Yesterday she went from OK to calling me a weak pu$sy mama's boy to depressed and then to wanting to snuggle in the middle of the night.  Today it's as if nothing happened.  That messes with your mind!  I think I've allowed her to drive me crazy.

[sweetheart]

Hello ASD,

I used my sons school to get him support. I let them know that his father was mentally ill and acutely unwell despite input from his support team. I asked the headteacher what she could suggest around emotional support, and they put in place weekly structured support from an Emotional Literacy Support Assistant/Counsellor. If my son wanted additional support during school time they gave him a soft toy which he would put on a designated table and be able to access support as and when he needed it. It worked very well for him. ( they also involved a play therapist for him for a set number of sessions. )

I also spent time with s7 talking about his father and his illness in brief, simple age appropriate chunks, again as and when he asked and when I felt it necessary to explain things in more detail. I took guidance from a national childrens charity supporting families with mental health issues.

Fortunately our s7 has not been directly caught up in or been the target of any of his fathers illness, but are lives have been very chaotic and unpredictable at times with lots of 'services' being present in our home over the last two years. My h has also been in and out of hospital a lot over the last year.

The school could be a great potential resource for signposting and information for your children.

The other thing I'm going to suggest might sound counter intuitive to you, but that is to contact your equivalent of Child and Family social services and let them know you are struggling and want support for your children. The only risk with this is the way it will/might trigger your wife. You can also contact them confidentially if you don't want them directly involved in your lives, and ask their advice. Again their involvement with our family was really helpful and their primary concern and focus is the welfare of the child.

[Silveron]

ASD,

 It sounds like we are married to the same woman.  I feel for you, I truly do.  Their disorder has basically destroyed the bond of the marriage.  They are emotionally stuck in their teenage years.  My daughter is 7 and I can't count the number of times that she has come running to me saying 'Mom is being mean again'... Then a few days later I can see how my wife tries to bully my daughter to agree with her when my wife starts with her verbal abuse on me.

 I am in the same situation as you.  I want out but I know if I leave, I leave my daughter to a wolf that will completely destroy her childhood and her love for her father.  I will often talk to my daughter privately about mom's behavior and tell her that some people get sick in their belly or other parts of their body, that mom right now is sick in her head.  That mom needs help.

 What I don't do is when my daughter runs to me about mom mistreating her is to comfort her by telling her 'mom loves her'.  Because I do not want her to get confused and associating that awful behavior with love.  My wife (like yours) sees black and white.  And when she is belittling me or my daughter she doesn't love us.  I honestly believe that is what my wife feels.

 At least your wife is in therapy, mine quit after a few weeks.  We have been to three of them over the years, all of them saying that my wife needs years of therapy.  Honestly I don't believe I am even 'in love' with my wife anymore.  How could I?  I never, ever thought when I was marrying her that this was what my future would be.  It's not a marriage, it's a co-existence with someone who is a bully.  I've been reading up on BPD quite a bit to get an idea of what is going on in her head but the destruction she is doing to my daughter and me is just about unbearable.

 Your wife and mine have very similar traits.  She will act like a monster then the next day (or as little as an hour later) she will act like nothing happened.  Let me guess, your wife had dad issues when she was a kid?  Mine did.  I feel like I've become the emotional punching bag for that.

[Panda39]

Good advice Panda. 

How do I get them into therapy without her knowing, or with her consent?

You are their father you don't need permission... .but if you tell her you are leaving you could also tell her that you intend to make sure the kids are supported during the separation/divorce process and intend to start them in therapy.

She can b___ an moan but you are doing what is in the best interest of your children... .just do it... .I doubt there is a court in the world that would not support you supporting your children in this way.

[ASD]

Here I am again.  Today has a been a text war.  I am really afraid that if I leave I'll lose the kids and they'll be stuck with her and eventually I'll be diluted out of their lives. 

She has never been violent to them.  She is good at making a good case, even making me sound awful (I am far from perfect, especially now, but I am still sane).  I fear she could convince a judge that as mother she'd be a better care taker.

One thing I have is that my schedule is very flexible ... .I drop off and pick up now because I work next to their school.  I pick up and then finish work from home.  If we split, supposedly she'd have to find a job and wouldn't be able to be there predictably. 

Today I've tried to say that I'll turn a new leaf and try to build trust with her, but that was met with accusations and denials... .you know the drill. 

I made the mistake of asking about the label!  I asked if she and her therapist talked about BPD ... .she exploded thinking I meant bi-polar.  When I clarified it didn't make it any better.  How dare I label her and blame her for everything while not accepting any responsibility. 

I don't know what the point of this post is, but thank you for reading and supporting.  These boards are getting to be pretty comforting and helpful.

[Panda39]

I made the mistake of asking about the label!  I asked if she and her therapist talked about BPD ... .she exploded thinking I meant bi-polar.  When I clarified it didn't make it any better.  How dare I label her and blame her for everything while not accepting any responsibility. 

Interesting... .no denial though. (has she been diagnosed?)

My SO also confronted his uBPDxw... .you could hear crickets chirping... .no response... .but also no denial.

[ASD]

No, no denial Panda.  Also I just left an appointment with our mutual psychiatrist and he confirmed again today that the diagnosis is accurate. 

I'm going to see a therapist that specializes in personality disorders on Monday - for me!

And on it goes... .