Totally Counterintuitive and Illogical

[JPH]

I've read enough about BPD, so I should know better. Still I have to ask. Anyway, my ex (after a few really great dates at first) flat out told me (1) that she is "broken"; (2) that she could only offer me sex; and (3) that she was afraid she'd hurt me. And her subsequent behavior of distancing, avoiding closeness, evasiveness, etc. backed up her words. So I broke up with her. And I respectfully reminded her of her own words and explained that I, too, was concerned about getting hurt because of her warnings and behavior.

Understandably she was hurt, but I honestly didn't think she'd care based on how infrequently I saw her and how distant she was emotionally. Apparently she was very hurt, and that hurt turned to serious anger. And she's harbored that anger and resentment to the point where we mutually decided to end our platonic friendship... .and then acts in such a way that her words appear to have been very true.

What I don't get is why anyone would be angry about and would not understand why a partner would extricate himself from a romantic relationship when she specifically told him (1) she is broken; (2) she can only offer sex in a relationship; and (3) she's afraid she'll hurt him.

[jhkbuzz]

I've read enough about BPD, so I should know better. Still I have to ask. Anyway, my ex (after a few really great dates at first) flat out told me (1) that she is "broken"; (2) that she could only offer me sex; and (3) that she was afraid she'd hurt me. And her subsequent behavior of distancing, avoiding closeness, evasiveness, etc. backed up her words. So I broke up with her. And I respectfully reminded her of her own words and explained that I, too, was concerned about getting hurt because of her warnings and behavior.

Understandably she was hurt, but I honestly didn't think she'd care based on how infrequently I saw her and how distant she was emotionally. Apparently she was very hurt, and that hurt turned to serious anger. And she's harbored that anger and resentment to the point where we mutually decided to end our platonic friendship... .and then acts in such a way that her words appear to have been very true.

What I don't get is why anyone would be angry about and would not understand why a partner would extricate himself from a romantic relationship when she specifically told him (1) she is broken; (2) she can only offer sex in a relationship; and (3) she's afraid she'll hurt him.

Because BPD is a mental illness with emotional dysregulation at its core.  You're expecting logical responses from an emotionally disordered person.

[Gonzalo]

They hate any mention of things they've done or said in the past. With my ex-, if I pointed out that she had asked me to do something she was complaining about or that what she was telling me today contradicted something she was insistent about last week, she accused me of setting a trap for her. Once she said she liked the idea of walking to a nearby restaurant, then seemed very opposed a few weeks later, and I asked her why so I could understand and figure out another plan. This led to a huge shouting fight because I was somehow controlling her and not letting her make her own decisions. Another example of me controlling her and refusing to acknowledge her right to her own decisions was when work might have forced her to miss all or most of a vacation, and I made the awful, terrible move of telling her that I would be cool with whatever she decided, that she shouldn't worry that I'd be upset with whatever decision worked out.

You're not dealing with a rational mind, you're dealing with someone with the emotional maturity and regulation abilities of a 3-year old, intense fear of abandonment, and a brain that will rewrite memories so that feelings become facts. Also, being too honest will piss off even people without personality disorders. I don't think it would make a difference here, but that list of 3 things is something I would only toss back at someone in a breakup if I wanted to hurt them - I don't think even a regular person would respond well to that, since it too easily becomes "I think these things of you" instead of "you said these things" by the time they hear it.

[JPH]

Also, being too honest will piss off even people without personality disorders. I don't think it would make a difference here, but that list of 3 things is something I would only toss back at someone in a breakup if I wanted to hurt them - I don't think even a regular person would respond well to that, since it too easily becomes "I think these things of you" instead of "you said these things" by the time they hear it.

I went out of my way to make it clear that it wasn't easy for me to make the decision to end the relationship and that I really had feelings for her and cared about her. I actually told her that I thought she was a very cool girl who had a lot of good qualities. But I also explained that I was afraid based on her own warnings and the fact that the way she was treating me was consistent with her words. Her distancing and disinterest in any emotional closeness or communication really concerned me and made me feel bad. I felt like I could've been anyone to her and that if someone else was plugged into my situation she's hardly notice or care. I know that, as you said, it wouldn't have made a difference in this case, but there wereway too many red flags too early for me to ignore.

[eyvindr]

Hi JPH --

Sorry you're dealing with this. Sadly, nothing surprising here. As buzz says, you can't expect reasonable responses from an unreasonable brain -- sadly, that's not oversimplification, when it comes to BPD. It just is what it is.

And I agree with most of what Gonzalo said, too. Except that I don't think you should hole yourself accountable for her poor reaction to your honesty. Really, I get that there is such a thing as "being too honest" -- I don't really agree with it, but I've accepted that that's more a function of my own wiring than anyone else's; most people's, as it seems. But I do think we're all entitled to expect a reasonable response from a reasonable person -- again, my perception is coming out here via my own wiring -- but I heard nothing in that you said or how you described saying it that I'd find insulting or hurtful. It was clear and reasonable, imo.

[oletimefeelin]

The fear of abandonment is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you listen closely, they'll tell you their reasons.  Subconsciously, she likely wanted you to tell her she's not those things.  That's not your responsibility, though, it's hers.  Try not to beat yourself up.

[JPH]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I really appreciate that y'all took the time to respond. I know I did the right thing, and I'm glad I did it sooner rather than later. The longer I would've remained, the more toxic and dysfunctional things would've become.

[2010]

Just a thought: If I drive down a road and see a sign that says “dead end,” do I ignore the sign and continue on, hoping to disprove the sign and find a way out at any cost?

Or do I *not heed the sign* but continue on, knowing that once I reached the dead end I could “respectfully remind” the sign (and its owner) that I ignored the warning and was now suffering the consequences?

That may be the definition of counter-intuitive (contrary to intuition or to common-sense expectation (but often nevertheless true) and illogical (not showing good judgment.)

And rather than re-address my definitions, would I remain steadfast in the “respectful reminder” that the sign, while being entirely clear, was not communicating what I wanted to hear, and when the keepers of the sign were “respectfully reminded” that although they had communicated “dead end,” I did not believe the message, and when I questioned it, they became angry, because surely, the “respectful reminder” appeared like blame for my predicament, an entirely truthful SIGN that was shown to me, as a warning?

Would I then understand that my own behavior might be considered counter-intuitive and illogical and therefore justifiable to deserve some frustration?

the way she was treating me was consistent with her words.

JPH, some people aren’t as lucky as you to get the warning signs. BPD is often co-morbid with passive-aggression and the result is that behaviors are <<inconsistent>> with words.  You may need to ask yourself why, (in the face of obvious evidence) that you pressed on and refused to acknowledge these freely given warnings as surmountable issues. And once they became insurmountable, you confronted the sign-holder, who had clearly acknowledged these as her issues up front. Somehow, (like any good Lawyer) you’re still choosing to debate the signs. Could it be that another Man has chosen to ignore the warning signs and is now down that very same dead end as you were- and he seems fine with it?

Well, guess what. You used to be him.

But he isn’t you.

He may stay well into the dawn of a new day with her in the dead end or he may leave, but one thing is certain: If you remain there at the red light waiting for your turn to enter the cul de sac to have another go, it won’t bode well for your mental health.

It's a dead end.

So to be fair, the real warning signs here are the waiting; denial, malignant hope, hope versus uncertainty and projective identification. Those are the hidden feelings, desires and disappointments that cover up the really important matters that should make you stop, look and listen to find your way out of the dead end- and not wait to debate someone to prove that the dead end really wasn’t a dead end when they told you it was.

Acknowledging that you are stuck there allows you to focus on the behavior you need to address to get out- your own.

1)   When she told you these dead end warnings, why did you not believe her?

2)   What do you *now* think about your denial?

3)   What about your hope? Does your hope often match your uncertainty for the future or does it swing back and forth on a daily basis?

4)   Other people may have heeded the sign and turned away, but you didn’t. Why? Was there an attraction for you to forge ahead despite the signs and against the odds? Could it now be considered an unhealthy obsession as you watch and wait for a green light to continue in the dead end?

5)   Seeing as how you had a previous relationship that was similar, could this be a similar teaching trial? What would be the lessons?

6)   Are you worried that she will succeed with her new boyfriend? What would this say if she did succeed without you? Is that a fear? Name it.

7)   Did you need her to succeed because she was representative of you? Was that ever a possibility?

All of these things are introspective. They won’t be resolved over night, but there are deep connections to be made. The focus needs to turn to you. Let it happen.   Best of luck to you, 2010

[apollotech]

JPH,

My BPDexgf told me basically the same things that yours told you. She clearly knew/knows that she was/is too unhealthy for a relationship. I think in their way of thinking that they believe that they are actually doing us a favor by telling us these things about themselves. By rational thinking, it is a favor, but it is usually delivered much too late to be of benefit... .emotional bonds are already in place.

I would say that your BPDSO's anger at you for (your decision) protecting yourself is twofold 1) she has lost control of you and the relationship and 2) you have triggered shame/guilt within her, whether you know/understand it makes little difference. She is projecting it onto you. As mentioned in other posts her fear of abandonment may be at play. For a pwBPD it's ALL a self fulfilling prophecy.

Inner shame and guilt play large roles in the life of a pwBPD. Remember that shame is one thinking that they are not good enough, not worthy. Read her statements in that context. To be quiet honest, if I personally saw myself that way I wouldn't even get out of bed in the morning. Why? What would be the reason?

[JPH]

2010, you raise some interesting points, and I appreciate your feedback. However, this relationship was very brief, and I ended it pretty quickly after the mask fell, she admitted those things to me and began acting differently (distant, negative, etc.) than she was during our first few dates. I didn't stay. Sure, it's very disappointing that someone with a number of great qualities is so damaged. Given my bad luck in dating, it sucks. That's probably why it's difficult for me to pull the plug on relationships (even bad ones). I'm tired of being single, and the person she became was so vastly different from who she was during the first few weeks that it took time to register that the girl I saw at the beginning wasn't coming back. She told me - bragged even - that she's dating someone else. That by itself is fine, but, sure, I admit to sometimes wondering if it will be any different for him than it was for me. However, I don't want her back. I blocked her from all communications and have been no contact for about two months. For me at least there's nothing good that could come from further contact with her. For me the light bulb went off pretty quickly after she shared about being broken, etc., and she began reminding me strongly of my ex-BPD girlfriend with whom I actually had a lengthy relationship which was worse than a lengthy descent into hell. By the time it was over, I didn't know who was crazy: her or me. I did have a lot of hope after I first met her. Perhaps that hope came along too quickly.

[jhkbuzz]

Just a thought: If I drive down a road and see a sign that says “dead end,” do I ignore the sign and continue on, hoping to disprove the sign and find a way out at any cost?

Or do I *not heed the sign* but continue on, knowing that once I reached the dead end I could “respectfully remind” the sign (and its owner) that I ignored the warning and was now suffering the consequences?

That may be the definition of counter-intuitive (contrary to intuition or to common-sense expectation (but often nevertheless true) and illogical (not showing good judgment.)

And rather than re-address my definitions, would I remain steadfast in the “respectful reminder” that the sign, while being entirely clear, was not communicating what I wanted to hear, and when the keepers of the sign were “respectfully reminded” that although they had communicated “dead end,” I did not believe the message, and when I questioned it, they became angry, because surely, the “respectful reminder” appeared like blame for my predicament, an entirely truthful SIGN that was shown to me, as a warning?

Would I then understand that my own behavior might be considered counter-intuitive and illogical and therefore justifiable to deserve some frustration?

the way she was treating me was consistent with her words.

JPH, some people aren’t as lucky as you to get the warning signs. BPD is often co-morbid with passive-aggression and the result is that behaviors are <<inconsistent>> with words.  You may need to ask yourself why, (in the face of obvious evidence) that you pressed on and refused to acknowledge these freely given warnings as surmountable issues. And once they became insurmountable, you confronted the sign-holder, who had clearly acknowledged these as her issues up front. Somehow, (like any good Lawyer) you’re still choosing to debate the signs. Could it be that another Man has chosen to ignore the warning signs and is now down that very same dead end as you were- and he seems fine with it?

Well, guess what. You used to be him.

But he isn’t you.

He may stay well into the dawn of a new day with her in the dead end or he may leave, but one thing is certain: If you remain there at the red light waiting for your turn to enter the cul de sac to have another go, it won’t bode well for your mental health.

It's a dead end.

So to be fair, the real warning signs here are the waiting; denial, malignant hope, hope versus uncertainty and projective identification. Those are the hidden feelings, desires and disappointments that cover up the really important matters that should make you stop, look and listen to find your way out of the dead end- and not wait to debate someone to prove that the dead end really wasn’t a dead end when they told you it was.

Acknowledging that you are stuck there allows you to focus on the behavior you need to address to get out- your own.

1)   When she told you these dead end warnings, why did you not believe her?

2)   What do you *now* think about your denial?

3)   What about your hope? Does your hope often match your uncertainty for the future or does it swing back and forth on a daily basis?

4)   Other people may have heeded the sign and turned away, but you didn’t. Why? Was there an attraction for you to forge ahead despite the signs and against the odds? Could it now be considered an unhealthy obsession as you watch and wait for a green light to continue in the dead end?

5)   Seeing as how you had a previous relationship that was similar, could this be a similar teaching trial? What would be the lessons?

6)   Are you worried that she will succeed with her new boyfriend? What would this say if she did succeed without you? Is that a fear? Name it.

7)   Did you need her to succeed because she was representative of you? Was that ever a possibility?

All of these things are introspective. They won’t be resolved over night, but there are deep connections to be made. The focus needs to turn to you. Let it happen.  Best of luck to you, 2010

Ohmigod what a post... .don't want to hijack (so I won't) but your questions made me cry and have given me a lot to think about (especially 6 and 7).

Many people are going to be very happy to see that you're posting again 2010... .