coparenting... how far?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So I have a million mixed emotions about this... .I can co parent, I do with my ex wife (nonBPD) but my recent ex fiance... .well thats a different story, she has done so many horrible things that Im not sure i can do it. currently i am struggling with a dentist appointment tomorrow... .I am usually the one to take our daughter to the Dr or Dentist etc... .and she has an appointment tomorrow morning, my ex just texted me and wants to have her dad take her to the dentist appointment to meet me there... .I really dont want that. Number one, i cant stand her... .for good reason, she tried to rip our daughter out of my arms... .screaming that i couldnt take her without custody papers and she was calling the cops! now i had years of this kind of craziness... .so while our daughter was in my arms crying, I simply said to my ex "what are you going to do? call the cops and tell them that your daughters father is picking her up?" what would they say? Good! She put her phone away and my daughter and i left... .

anyhow recently our daughter has been acting out quite badly, and even started the whole "I wish mom would come back home."

so to me, i feel like i should just take her to the appointment, let the ex know how it went and be done with it... .

i dont want to confuse our daughter, and there is really no other reason for her to be there. I can handle it just fine... .I have three children and do just fine with them. my oldest two go to the dentist with their mom, and the Dr with me (locations work for this) then we let each other know whats up.

am i being irrational here?

[m-and-m]

So I have a million mixed emotions about this... .I can co parent, I do with my ex wife (nonBPD) but my recent ex fiance... .well thats a different story, she has done so many horrible things that Im not sure i can do it. currently i am struggling with a dentist appointment tomorrow... .I am usually the one to take our daughter to the Dr or Dentist etc... .and she has an appointment tomorrow morning, my ex just texted me and wants to have her dad take her to the dentist appointment to meet me there... .I really dont want that. Number one, i cant stand her... .for good reason, she tried to rip our daughter out of my arms... .screaming that i couldnt take her without custody papers and she was calling the cops! now i had years of this kind of craziness... .so while our daughter was in my arms crying, I simply said to my ex "what are you going to do? call the cops and tell them that your daughters father is picking her up?" what would they say? Good! She put her phone away and my daughter and i left... .

anyhow recently our daughter has been acting out quite badly, and even started the whole "I wish mom would come back home."

so to me, i feel like i should just take her to the appointment, let the ex know how it went and be done with it... .

i dont want to confuse our daughter, and there is really no other reason for her to be there. I can handle it just fine... .I have three children and do just fine with them. my oldest two go to the dentist with their mom, and the Dr with me (locations work for this) then we let each other know whats up.

am i being irrational here?

[livednlearned]

You are not being irrational.

Can you simply respond, "I will send you information about D's visit after the appointment. This is a routine visit and a straight forward annual check-up. If you have concerns, please contact the dentist with any questions."

[m-and-m]

THANKS livednlearned

I did that, and she said I wasn't respecting her motherly rights.

[livednlearned]

Hi m-and-m,

I wouldn't respond to her at this point. You asserted a boundary, she expressed how she felt about that boundary, there is no need to keep the argument going if she is not respecting your boundary.

Does that help? One of the biggest things to learn, at least in terms of learning to co-parent (more like parallel parenting) is to assert your boundary in brief, informative, declarative emails, and then let her respond. Reinforce positive behaviors, and ignore negative ones. So for example, if she writes back, "Thank you for your email. Please send me information from the dentist so I know what's going on." Then you might write back, "Great. Will do."

If she screeches at you in email, ignore that negative behavior. It's perfectly reasonable, although many of us feel guilty when we are being assertive. That's our stuff that we need to work on. 

[m-and-m]

That is great help.

Thank you, and yes after being assertive I do feel guilty, or bad. But I really agree with you here... Thank you!

[rarsweet]

I went through this about 6 months ago right after my breakup. My daughter had her well child checkup on my time. Ex said he was coming. I really did not want him there, but I told myself to take the high road and deal with it. Well what happens is you go in the room with the nurse and she takes vitals and then leaves and you wait for the doctor. Well the door was shut, so he took the opportunity to degrade me, be sarcastic, etc. I just stayed calm and pretended like nothing happened for the rest of the appointment. Afterward I simply told the Dr at future appointments I wanted the door left open while we wait. We have had 2 appointments since that went much better, and I am glad I am taking the high road for my daughter.

[m-and-m]

I considered biting the bullet... .But my daughter who is now 3 soon to be 4, has recently started the "I wish mommy would come back home." and i really dont want to confuse her or have to have her sense the stress, especially at the dentist!

I am having a hard time getting passed the slandering, pushing, hitting and screaming my ex has done to me infront of my children... .I had to see my two youngest cover their ears, crying and running to their rooms to hide under their blankets... .No Father (or mother) should have to or want to see that.

[rarsweet]

It is so hard when you feel the need to protect your child from the one person who is supposed to love them like you do. Do you two have joint custody?

[m-and-m]

Custody... Well that is a story.

so after the "Im going to call the cops" scenario... .I called a friend of mine (Lawyer) and told him what happen... .He typed up some drafts and suggested that I should wait a little bit to send in... .He was thinking we were going to work things out... Anyhow, I showed her the drafts and she FLIPPED OUT... .then strung me along for awhile... .I ended up going to therapy just to try and get my head straight... .So my Ex and I have been doing joint custody but i havent filled the papers... .I actually thought about this yesterday and i am going to finish it, so its legal and There will be actual rules.

I know she loves her... .I just dont think she sees what the effects of her actions and words do. there were so many messed up things... .When she first moved out, she called me because her computer wasnt working (thats what i do) and she was screaming F thing and you better F that and why the F isnt our daughter sleeping (i could hear her crying in the background) i was so disgusted by this... she was screaming there is something wrong with her! It was heart wrenching, So i just said (loudly) "its because your screaming and swearing at the top of your lungs in an apartment the size of a box!"

anyhow... .It makes all this hard and very confusing

[livednlearned]

As confusing as it is, I do believe it's possible for abusers to love the people they abuse. But it's still abuse. We can't change them, and in many ways, trying to do so only makes it worse. All you can do is call it what it is: abuse. And then put up boundaries to protect yourself, and protect your kids. To protect the kids, you often have to get court involved so that the boundaries have some teeth to them. Unfortunately, we are the ones left to enforce those boundaries. Many people in BPD relationships have struggled with boundaries, for whatever reason. Part of coparenting is learning how to do this effectively, and focusing your efforts on what you can control, and if necessary, removing your ex from coparenting until she learns that your boundaries are real.

In one of the lessons to the right (in the side bar) there is a workshop about how it's much more effective to try parallel parenting the first year after divorce, and then ease gently into coparenting if it's possible. I interpret that to mean that we have to first teach the other parent that our boundaries are real. So the first year out, it's really about boundaries before convenience. Even when it doesn't make sense, and even when it is not convenient for you, enforce the boundary. Be as consistent as you possibly can, even if the guilt feels like it will surely consume you. Because it won't  and you'll get better at this with practice.

[Turkish]

I considered biting the bullet... .But my daughter who is now 3 soon to be 4, has recently started the "I wish mommy would come back home." and i really dont want to confuse her or have to have her sense the stress, especially at the dentist!

Their mom moved out coming up on 14 months now. We did a joint custody schedule and after negotiating this and that, I served her and it's filed. S5 still mentions now and then about his mom and I being together.

Like your daughter, perhaps, D2 (almost 3) recently started saying, "I miss Mommy. I want Mommy." She pointed at a picture I have on the wall with me, their mom and S5 then Sbaby and D2 said last night, "I want that." *sigh*

Your daughter is maturing quickly now. What do you say to her when she says that she wishes her mom would come back home.

[m-and-m]

I considered biting the bullet... .But my daughter who is now 3 soon to be 4, has recently started the "I wish mommy would come back home." and i really dont want to confuse her or have to have her sense the stress, especially at the dentist!

Your daughter is maturing quickly now. What do you say to her when she says that she wishes her mom would come back home.

I actually had to deal with this once before with my oldest daughter, my ex wife and I had divorced and she moved 40 minutes away, the divorce was bad, but the relationship was the "highschool sweethearts" and we were together for 8 years, it took awhile but we get along great now... .anyhow my oldest daughter was 6 at the time, I will never forget her face when We told her we were getting a divorce... .It was the most painful thing I think I have ever witnessed... .Broke my heart. when she would ask about mommy coming home, I did it totally wrong... .I got so angry, and I know why... .It was the situation, and the fact that only being five years into parenting world and I already broke a vow to myself to never hurt my kids and to never not be there for them.

so as hard as it is... .I simply say to my youngest, "Thats not whats happening dear, and in X days you will be seeing her again." then I go through the weekdays and count with her.

I dont know, it seems to help I guess.

[Rubies]

I agree livednlearned.  It's about setting, enforcing and teaching BPDs to respect boundaries for the sake of the kids.   Routine doctor and dental appointments are routine.  What's the reason for both parents to be there for a throat swab?   None.   BPDs should not be allowed to turn minor routine into family trauma events.   They can save it for the ER where staff are trained for it. 

The BPD parent wants to be the one to take child to dr. appointment?  Schedule it for their day with the child, provide a reminder, follow up with health care provider to make sure YOU have correct info on the situation, and be prepared to reschedule if they were a no show.

It's easier that way.

I can't think of a deeper circle of hell than being closed up in a room for DD's appointment with BPDxh.  Neither can DD.  He tried.    Before the divorce was final, he had all 3 of our dental appointments staggered 15 minutes apart, 3 chairs across.  We were there early enough to have that changed much to DD's relief.  We went to a different suite in the maze, but we could still hear his belligerent tantrum at the desk.  When we were done, they escorted us out their private exit and to my car.  They must've shoved lots of novacaine in his face to get him to shut up.

[NorthernGirl]

Hi m-and-m. I suggest when talking with your daughter, that you validate her feelings. When she says "I wish mommy would come back home" you can reinforce her feelings without agreeing with the idea she raised. So you could say "what do you miss about having mommy here?" or something like that. Listen to what she says, repeat or name the feelings she shares ("it sounds like you are sad" and then see if you can get her to talk about it more. Use the opportunity of her raising the concern as a way to figure out how she's doing.

One of my stepsons hid a picture he had of him and his mom and dad pre-divorce. He wrote on the back of the picture something like "how it should be". He had decided that all was perfect when his parents were together. Working with a counsellor, DH was able to talk with his son about how things weren't as happy as they appeared when the picture was taken. Talking about it allowed his son to raise what it was he was looking for -- peace between his parents, support from them both, etc. DH could then talk about how he would do his best on what he could control.

[m-and-m]

Thank you NorthernGirl

This is great advice. How long did that last with your step-son? 

[livednlearned]

We have an article on the site: Validation and Young Children that might be helpful.