Has hoarding/cluttering affected you?

[Ziggiddy]

Turkish mentioned a something on another thread which I found intriguing as I have been thinking about it a lot lately.

My T said that hoarding denotes "fear of loss." It might be an interesting issue to discuss in its own thread. I think a lot of us here have hoarder parents.

Me I believed it was from object relation problems - mostly object constancy.

So like if you are 6 - 8 months old you don't know that if something disappears it still exists when you can't see it. If you learn that something can reappear after it goes missing, you grow are then capable of producing a new neurotransmitter that reduces anxiety.

It's like the peekaboo game  - Mum disappears behind her hands and baby is shocked. Then she reappears and baby is like "Whoah! What kind of sorcery IS this?"

So the theory says that if baby doesn't learn object constancy or learns it improperly then they go onto develop a deep anxiety about things leaving their lives. This produces the hoarding complex.

In any case I know my uBPDm's hoarding  has always been excessive and invasive as she not only hoarded at her place, my sister's place, my place, her friends' places but then would manipulate others into asking their friends to hold onto stuff for her.

At the same time would always refuse to take things back "Well, where am I supposed to put it? i don't have any room!"

At one time a friend of mine rented a storage unit because she had so much stuff of my mother's at her house - oddly enough she had never met my mother. All my doing much to my guilt.

Anyway have you had hoarding in your family? Do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from? Has it impacted you in anyway? How do you manage?

[Hope1913]

My mother hoarded so much that we couldn't eat at the dining room table, sit on some of the furniture, park the car inside the garage, and every surface was covered in piles of stuff. Our bedrooms had piles of her stuff too. Because of this, I have developed a fear of having too much stuff. I've lived outdoors for months to rebel against materialism. I live indoors now, but I obsess and compulse about having too many belongings, pieces of furniture, ect. So I am constantly getting rid of things. When my issue was more severe, I would get rid of all my clothes with the exception of two outfits. I would get rid of things that I had sentimental attachment. I fear being attached to anything including people.

[Seoulsister]

It's interesting that you mentioned that hoarding denotes fear of loss. Things started to get bad with my uBPDm after she and my dad divorced. I don't remember her hoarding as much when I was younger. I do remember her having to have a perfect looking house all the time, and to do so she'd squirrel piles of stuff out of sight everywhere, even hiding stuff in the dryer and oven.

Now her garage is stacked to the top full of items, mostly new with tags, like bed quilts, baskets, towels and at least 500 light bulbs (she's mad at Obama and CLFs). Several times she and I have attempted to clear it all out and it is amazing the number of multiples of things she has that she doesn't even know she has. It was so disappointing to spend literally days clearing it out and then seeing a completely full garage the next time I visited that I don't even go in her garage anymore.

Additionally, she cannot stop acquiring pets. They're all indoor pets and it has become hoardish at this point. She has so many that she has basically paralyzed her own life; she cannot have people over, she's always afraid neighbors are going to find out how many she has and she has to keep blankets covering everything to keep it (somewhat) fur & urine-free. When one happens to escape to the outside, she makes hysterical phone calls and drives around screaming their names. It's really traumatic for her. She truly thinks no one could care or love them more than she can.

The last time I visited, one of her cats urinated on her stovetop burner and on all of my luggage. During the same visit, I said I smelled feces and her response was, "Check the bathroom sink."   So that was it for me.  I haven't stayed with her since. Though she says many times that she has to do something and can't live like this anymore, there has been no effort in almost 10 years to change it. In fact, she recently acquired another cat, which of course she lied about.

I am definitely a minimalist because of this. I will never own a cat.

[Turkish]

At the same time would always refuse to take things back "Well, where am I supposed to put it? i don't have any room!"

When I moved from my studio apartment in with my Ex in a 2 bedroom I would share with my Ex and another roommate, I dropped off two boxes and a duffle bag full of stuff at my mom's. I also had two small pet rat cages. A few years before, my mom had moved onto her property one of those trailers that served as an office on construction sites. It was, of course, full of stuff by then. My mom gave me a hard time about dropping those few things off (I had to reach up to put my things in there). One would think I was the hoarder!

She constantly picks up piles of books for me to take back for my kids. Realistically, they only like to read a few books at a time, so I have so many books... .I've made a few purges, but need to purge more. I politely take what she gives me. Some things smell like the smoke, mildew and animal waste from inside her house, and I either toss them, at leave them in the garage.

I don't really remember the hoarding when I was a kid, but maybe I was used to it. I quickly became aware of it, however, when we moved from the suburbs (probably a little over a 1000 sqf house) to the mountains. I remember going to the back of the grocery stores and getting boxes and boxes to pack. These were the same stores where I was sent to dumpster-dive for food. I can't count how many trips we made up to the mountains, the 3/4 ton pick up truck (a Ford F-250) towing a trailer, full of boxes. When it was all done, we had filled a 2 floor 1800 sqf barn shell (meaning, unfinished, no walls or rooms, just the floors and the stairs) mostly full of boxes. This didn't count the stuff that was outside, strewn about the property.

She also hoarded animals. By the end of that summer, we had 3 goats, 6 chickens, geese, 50 dogs (mostly Lhasa Apsos), and a sheep who thought it was a dog and ate dog food because ran and lived with the dogs. That was a cool sheep, even if frustrating and stubborn. Her name was Sally.

The dogs gradually dwindled, and she bred them to sell, but never did it right like a proper kennel. That was in the '80s.

A poor rabbit she kept in an elevated cage died a year ago. Poor thing. It didn't even have a companion, it just sat there in the cage. A month or so later, I went to visit, and I said, "I thought the rabbit died." She replied, "yes, it did, so I got another one."  

My mom also rescued waifs, always dysfunctional people, some of whom were dangerous. In retrospect, my mom rescued me from foster care. I won't be insulting and say it was purely because she thought she deserved a child, though she was turned off by men due to her childhood molestation (and a previous abusive r/s), but there was some of that. It's why she had her worst breakdown that finally resulted in her going into therapy, because she was losing me to adulthood.

Even 20 years after I moved out, despite the filth, hoarding and her fixed income, she still pined about adopting a child in her 60s.

This fact sheet seems to describe my mom's behaviors very well (down to my mom taking pride in being "thrifty" and being unable to turn down taking free items):

iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Hoarding-Fact-Sheet.pdf

[Harri]

My mother was a bit of a hoarder as she got older but not to the extent that you all have described here.  My parents house was small and had an open plan so everything could be seen so it was hard to hide things.  The unfinished basement was loaded up with stuff from my  grandfathers house (he had a big house) and lots of the left over inventory from his jewelry/antique store.  Stuff got ruined down there due to mold.

My mother's room, a very small former laundry room that used to serve as my brothers room, was loaded with stuff she collected.  Piles of stuff all around so that there was just a 2 foot wide short path from the door, across the room (maybe 6 feet) to get to her dresser.  I was the one to go through her stuff after she died and found stuff that just floored me.  Papers, card, notebooks full of notes she would take listening to her radio shows.  Baby clothes for who knows how.  None of it was organized.  The dust and filth was incredible as it was impossible to clean under and around that stuff.  I had to go through things very carefully as she had money stashed everywhere.  Overall I found close to $4000 stashed in there and I am almost certain some got thrown out by accident.  I am sure she had forgotten about the money too otherwise she would have taken it to the casinos.

Reading other peoples stories makes me grateful she was able to keep it fairly confined.  I no longer have cable TV but when I did I could never watch the Hoarders show.  For some reason it hurt too much to watch. 

[Turkish]

Here is some more helpful info on hoarding. I was surprised to see that these traits can occur in children as young as 3. My mother's issue progressively worsened according to the age progression listed in the article. The first paragraph seems to associate it with object constancy issues as Ziggiddy theorized:

www.hoarding.iocdf.org/hoarding/causes.aspx

Course and Causes of Hoarding

Hoarding usually begins early in life, though onset can vary greatly. It can occur in children, and we have seen it as young as 3-years old. For young children, hoarding may look different because parents control what children can buy and the level of clutter in their rooms. More apparent in children are extremely intense attachments to objects and the tendency to personify things, applying human-like characteristics to objects. In addition, children who hoard seem to have more difficulty recognizing hoarding behavior as a problem.

The typical age of onset for hoarding behavior (though not hoarding disorder) is around age 13. At that time the behavior is usually mild and would not be considered a disorder. Hoarding typically progresses to become a moderate problem in the 20’s and 30’s, and a severe problem in the 40’s and 50’s. Onset appears to be earlier in women than in men, though hoarding occurs more frequently in men than in women. Late onset of hoarding (after age 40) is rare and seems to occur in people who have mild hoarding to begin with and suffer a loss of some kind. Most people who hoard describe a chronic course, while a small number describe an increasing or fluctuating one. Stressful and traumatic events are common in people who hoard and may be associated with periods of worsening symptoms. Recent epidemiological studies suggest that as many as 1 in 20 people have significant hoarding problems.

Hoarding is a complex disorder that is believed to be associated with 4 underlying characteristics. First there are certain core vulnerabilities including emotional dysregulation in the form of depression or anxiety along with family histories of hoarding and generally high levels of perfectionism. Second, people who hoard appear to have difficulties processing information. In particular, these difficulties appear as problems in attention (including ADHD-like symptoms), memory, categorization, and decision-making. The areas of the brain that control these functions roughly correspond to the brain regions that have been shown to activate differently in people who hoard. Third, people who hoard form intense emotional attachments to a wider variety of objects than do people who don’t hoard. These attachments take the form of attaching human-like qualities to inanimate objects, feeling grief at the prospect of getting rid of objects, and deriving a sense of safety from being surrounded by possessions. Fourth, people who hoard often hold beliefs about the necessity of not wasting objects or losing opportunities that are represented by objects. Additional beliefs about the necessity of saving things to facilitate memory and appreciation of the aesthetic beauty of objects contribute to the problem.

While hoarding isn't a behavior clinically indicative of BPD, it can be associated with other disorders which seem often to be co-morbid with BPD:

www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/hoarding-basics

Hoarding may be present on its own or as a symptom of another disorder. Those most often associated with hoarding are obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD), obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and depression.

Although less often, hoarding may be associated with an eating disorder, pica (eating non-food materials), Prader-Willi syndrome (a genetic disorder), psychosis, or dementia.

Info on animal hoarding.

[ViaCrusis1689]

Unfortunately, yes! Mom won't get rid of much, even though she doesn't use 80% of what she saves. It drives me absolutely nuts. I have a physical disability, and it is difficult for me to have stuff piled everywhere on surfaces. I also think I have a touch of OCD, so all of the clutter makes me anxious . I hope to move out when my parents move to wherever they decide to retire to. I am going to be a minimalist for sure!

I also find she tends to criticize my "messy" room, which is kind of cluttered, but it is 1/12th the space of the entire house (excluding the basement), and nearly all I own is in there and it doesn't have a closet! Does this sound familiar to anyone? Like she can't see her mess but is critical of what she sees as my "mess."

[Ziggiddy]

These responses have been so interesting.

Harri I used to watch Hoarders ALL THE TIME and have to control all the emotions it evoked!

I used to be a hoarder and kind of went in reverse. I guess I had just adopted the mottoes that led to the clutter. The main one was "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."

I remember living in a tiny single room at a mine camp and hearing how the cleaners had snickered over how much stuff I had. it didn't seem that much to me but shortly after had a nightmare (a bit like that scene in Labyrinth where the people are all weighed down by all their possessions.)

Well i just went and stuffed my car with all that I could fit, drove to a seaside hotel and got the biggest room. I spread everything around and realised how I didn't use or even LIKE half this stuff!

I went through it - 15 16 handbags - huh? i don't even USE a handbag! And all of them old dirty broken.

I ended up sneaking into the hotel carpark and dumping bag after bag of rubbish in their bins in the dead of night.

I felt SO guilty. Also really really scared that Mum would find out because almost all of it were 'gifts' from her.

Even now when I get rid of the things she gives me (that I decline but she leaves anyway) I take them to thrift shops she doesn't know of.

Hope,

My mother hoarded so much that we couldn't eat at the dining room table, sit on some of the furniture, park the car inside the garage, and every surface was covered in piles of stuff

that gave me a chill and brought back a really sad memory of seeing my dad sitting on his bed eating off a tray in his room absolutely surrounded by piles of garbage on the bed because of the same thing you describe. I often bought takeaways because the stovetop and oven were crowded with stuff and there was literally nowhere to put the stuff to turn the cookers on.

Interesting how many of you respond by minimalism. My brother is like that. He gets a compulsion to purge his stuff a couple of times a year.

What is it about hoarding that causes you consternation? Not for your parent but for you?

For me, it was feeling the stuff was more important than me.

[Linda Maria]

Hi Zigiddy!  This is an interesting thread.  I am not sure what category my uBPDsis falls into on this.  I wouldn't have said she was a real hoarder, but she has very contradictory habits.  Her car is like a skip, the footwell for the front passenger is really full of junk, old banana skins, bags, papers, on the few occasions I went in her car my knees would be practically round my ears!  Quite unpleasant - and she has no shame about it.  The boot (trunk?) was also very full up - so if she needed to buy something big when I was over we'd take my car because there was no room in hers!  Why not clear it out!  She has always been untidy - or is that just lazy about clearing up?  When she didn't live at her own house for a period of 4 -5 years, she would pop in to check her mail.  There would be loads of freebie newspapers and junk mail.  She never threw it away.  When her relationship ended and I went round  there 3 weekends running to help her sort the place out, we could hardly open the front door, because of the pile of papers behind it!  Yet with cleanliness she was very fussy, and about what she ate and drank out of.  It always seemed a contradiction to me.  And she also was always trying to leave her stuff at my house.  She stayed over once, when we'd just moved in, and left some work clothes.  I mentioned it but she would never take them.  Eventually we re-did the room, and knocked down the cupboard so I said to her I would bring them over next time I came to my Mum's so she could pick them up.  She said she didn't want them and to bin them.  I said are you sure, she said yes, so I did.  Next time she came she asked where they were?  I reminded her that she'd told me to bin them, having left them there for over a year.  She didn't say anything, but she had a face like thunder the rest of the visit.  That was years ago, in my walking on eggshells days - long gone now!  She also once asked me to bank a cheque for her, a bonus cheque I think.  Why would I want to put her money in my account?  I earned way more than her, it was weird.  She said it would be a favour temporarily.  So I did, and then kept saying to her - when shall I send you a cheque for it.  But she wouldn't let me, in the end I closed the account, worked out the interest due to her, and then sent her a building society cheque, so if she didn't cash it the money was gone for good.  My Mum told me she was really cross!  My Mum said to her - what do you expect - your sister doesn't want to be a bank for you!  She did lots of weird things like that as well.  Always pointless and annoying, and just creating extra hassle for other people.  When my Mum passed away, before she got really nasty, I was always going over to my Mum's where she had moved in, to help with paperwork.  She would leave all the mail for me to open, and sort.  One day I went to chuck out all the old envelopes that were just empty trash, and she told me to leave it as she wanted to check it!  So the rubbish did start mounting up there.  It was all so tiring.  The saga is still going on with her, we are in court next month - long story - but at least that's just money.  Going NC was the best thing I ever did!  Best wishes.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hey Ziggiddy, 

This is such a fascinating thread! I'm glad you and Turkish decided it was worthwhile to begin. 

I find this to be interesting:

If you learn that something can reappear after it goes missing, you grow are then capable of producing a new neurotransmitter that reduces anxiety.

It's like the peekaboo game  - Mum disappears behind her hands and baby is shocked. Then she reappears and baby is like "Whoah! What kind of sorcery IS this?"

So the theory says that if baby doesn't learn object constancy or learns it improperly then they go onto develop a deep anxiety about things leaving their lives. This produces the hoarding complex.

Anyway have you had hoarding in your family? Do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from?

Before I answer the second question you posed, Z, let me just say that not only did my uBPDm hoard food when I was a young child living at home, but as she got older, her hoarding got much worse. For Christmas every year, she gave us tons of useless things, and we filled garbage bags with them, usually throwing them out. I often think of all the money she spent buying items 'on sale' and 'saving so much money.' By the time she passed her house was so full it was truly like a maze to get around inside. I flew to FL to help empty the 4 outdoor sheds which were stuffed full of her craft goods. Seems as if it never ended. It was so tiring to go through it all.

As to your question, given the description you posted and also from Turkish:

Here is some more helpful info on hoarding. I was surprised to see that these traits can occur in children as young as 3. My mother's issue progressively worsened according to the age progression listed in the article. The first paragraph seems to associate it with object constancy issues as Ziggiddy theorized:

Course and Causes of Hoarding

Hoarding usually begins early in life, though onset can vary greatly. It can occur in children, and we have seen it as young as 3-years old... .More apparent in children are extremely intense attachments to objects and the tendency to personify things, applying human-like characteristics to objects. In addition, children who hoard seem to have more difficulty recognizing hoarding behavior as a problem.

Now to answer "do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from?" This is a story about my uBPDm. I apologize in advance if it gets a bit long.

When my grandmother was 19 years old and pregnant with my mom, there was a day close to her delivery when she wasn't feeling well. My German great grandfather insisted on marching her up and down the sidewalk for a long, long time to work off the intestinal cramps she was having. Suddenly my grandmother collapsed on the sidewalk and could not walk. Nor did she ever walk again. Something had happened to cause her to become paralyzed from her mid-abdomen down. She developed a fever of 105 degrees, and was very, very sick for days. The doctor's delivered my mom using forceps, and then her mother was not allowed to see her for about 2 weeks as her mother struggled to survive, not knowing if she was contagious. I have copies of the hospital notes, and it was amazing to read.

My mom was shuffled around quite a bit in those early days, but eventually she settled in with her parents, living in the home above her grandparents, although her mother remained an invalid. In those days there was no PT. We suspect polio or Guillain-Barre syndrome, but no one knows for sure. My grandfather was a big man (I loved him very much), and he carried her tenderly I am told, wherever they went. My grandmother only lived til she was 24 years old, so my mom had a hard time I imagine, learning that constancy which you spoke about. Her mom was gone and didn't come back ever. No more peek-a-boo and reappearing.

Then her father and new step-mother (who was most likely BPD) left my mom with her grandparents 2 years later, in order for them to join the army in WWII. Once again, by 6 years old, my uBPDm had no constancy. I suppose it is no wonder that she clung to whatever she could all of those years, through my growing up and into her later age. As Turkish mentioned, sometimes as young as 3 they learn this. My mom learned by age 4.

It's sad, ya know?

Wools

[MKG1015]

When we moved BPDmom for the last time we moved her out of a three bedroom house into a one bedroom apartment. We threw away, not even kidding here, 1900 lbs of actual trash. The rest we stuffed to the ceiling in the moving truck and then to the ceiling in her new apartment. I was taking a cigarette break (no I don't smoke but that f-ing day I did) when the owner of the moving company approached me. He said "I've seen this stuff before... I think I've moved your Mom before." I said "I'm sorry. I don't doubt it since she has moved almost every two years since i've been alive." He looked embarrassed and concerned when he said "This might be none of my business but... .your mom is in pretty poor health right?" "yes, she is." "What are you going to do with all this STUFF when... .you know... .something happens to her?" I looked him straight in the eye and said

"Light a match."

He laughed and said, " no really." To which I replied "No. Really."

Growing up I never had friends over b/c the house was dirty nasty and covered in all the things she HAD to have. Which is why I'm completely neurotic about having a clean house. ANY type of clutter stresses me out to the point of anxiety. Our neighbor across the street has a hoarder wife and I can't even go in there house to visit b/c I have a panic attack... .it's too much like walking into my childhood for me to stay there.

[Turkish]

Last year, I was visiting my mom's property (5 acres in the woods). I didn't have the kids. Truth be told, I don't like bringing the kids there. We can't go in the house due to the clutter and filth,.and there is no place to sit outside. Try as I might, I often end up with dog crap on my shoe as well. She was telling me, "I've been packing garbage bags and doing dump runs." I tried to hide it, but I couldn't help but glance around, and this was in the yard. She saw me doing this and said, "oh, I know, it probably doesn't look like I've done much." I was silent. Not too validating.

I called her this past week, the day before her 73rd birthday. I wanted to call since I had the kids, and I wasn't sure if she would be able to answer the next night. Sometimes, I can't get ahold of her for days, and I worry. I live about 120 miles away.

We talked for a while. Though she lives half a mile from the highway back on a dirt road, the local garbage service picks up at her gate. She said that she signed up for garbage service, the first time in 26 years, and ordered the biggest bin available. She said that she's been stuffing it full every week, and that the garbage man was probably sorry to lift the bin. I said, "oh, that's good that you are doing that." Then I changed the subject.

It's good that she's making progress, I think. I'm still resentful that like MKG says, my solution to the house is 5 gallons of diesel and a match. She's implied in the past that she wants to leave me something, but it would cost so much to clean up the property, that I loathe to deal with it. My emotional attachment to it is nil.

[clljhns]

Ziggidy,

Great thread!

My uBPDmom is a hoarder, also. She started much later in life than the article sited in the thread suggests, though. She didn't have anything growing up, and didn't have the money to buy anything for the first 15 years of my parents marriage. We lived in a very small house, so we had lots of stuff stacked up, but then this was a result of 6 people being crammed into about 700 sq ft. When  my dad got a better job, my parents decided to build their own. We kids were the labor for building this 4000 sq ft "gift" for my mom. As soon as she was financially able, she began to spend. At one time she had 25 credit cards all maxed out to the tune of over $240,000! She had trouble paying these debts, and kept it hidden from my dad, but loved to share her financial woes with me and one of my sisters. We would tell her to stop spending, and she would scream at us that we couldn't tell her what to do. She continued to spend. Shopped at least five days a week and then bought items from TV networks like QVC.

She didn't have indoor pets often, as she didn't like them that much.  One time, I went to help her "spring clean" and left the house with eight 30 gallon garbage bags full of clothes, shoes, handbags, and scarves. She has five closets full of clothes, and two spare bedrooms are designated as her personal space for anything else she wants to collect (which by the way, you can't close the doors because there is so much stuff in the room, and have only a small path to walk in and out of the rooms. I also cleaned out their pantry and found food that expired three to four years prior. They had enough food in their pantry to feed a family of five comfortably, but it is just the two of them.

My dad collects junk and throws it in the basement or yard. So the outside of their house looks like the Beverly Hillbilly's, and the basement is for crypt keepers only. At one time my dad had three broken down cars in the driveway. When I was about 25, I had all of the cars towed out of the driveway and yard. These cars had wasp nests in them, and you would have to make a made dash for the door and pray you didn't get stung as you passed these cars. It was ridiculous that they lived this way. He also had two antique vehicles sitting in a field, rusting to the ground. My BIL really wanted to restore one of the vehicles, and I have no doubt that he would have. That car eventually did rust out so badly sitting out in the elements for years, that there was no hope of restoration. Just about every window in this home rotted out because it sat empty for the 13 years we helped them build the house. We could have all lived in the home by the time I was 17, but this didn't happen. My parents didn't move in the home until I forced them to when I was 25. It was crazy for them to sit in a small home when they had built this huge home and finished it enough that it was livable. He never finished putting the brick on the bottom of the house, and didn't finish the brick fireplaces, which meant that they did have some interesting creatures that would get into the house, like the huge chicken snake that found it's way to the second floor of the house and on top of a table, waiting to greet my mother when she walked out of her bedroom.

My mother would come to my house and criticize me for not keeping my home clean. You could eat off the floors of my house! My mother could throw seeds on any surface in her house and sprout plants, that is how thick her dust was! I was the one who would go to her house once a year and clean. I am definitely not a hoarder because of my mother's reckless abandon when it comes to spending and crowding her living space.

MKG1015, I laughed when I read this:

"Light a match."

This is actually what my sister and I used to say about what we would do with all of their things when they passed.

[polly87]

Anyway have you had hoarding in your family? Do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from? Has it impacted you in anyway? How do you manage?

Interesting topic. My mother collected clothes. Fancy expensive clothes. She had two huge closets stuffed with brand-new clothes and she used to buy stuff for me that I did not like. I think my mother felt better about herself when she looked good. She was extremely vain and would take two hours every morning to do her hair and make-up. She would tell me about items of clothing that she used to wear when she was in her early twenties and how beautiful she found herself.

Now that I live on my own, I tend to buy only the clothes that I really need and I only put on make-up when I'm going out. It makes me feel better not having too much. Vanity disgusts me.

My dad, by the way, used to be a hoarder during the years that I did not know him. He told me he missed me in his life and he wanted to collect things (old cars, especially ) to fill the void. I do not find the clutter in his home/garage annoying because I know it does not stem from narcissistic traits but from sadness.

[Ziggiddy]

Linda Maria

She has always been untidy - or is that just lazy about clearing up?

Somehow I missed that! I have thought about this over and over. having someone else 'say' it made me think others have felt that too. My mother has always held herself out as a hard worker - she deserves to buy all this stuff because of how hard she worked, but when I thought about what you said I am realising this was what was SAID not what was done. because she does have a trashheap around her most of the time and yet when she invites people over for a meal suddenly the place is spick and span. So I suppose that shows it is a choice. I always wondered how much is laziness and how much is choice. Thanks for that thought Linda. Quite opened my eyes.

Turkish

I tried to hide it, but I couldn't help but glance around, and this was in the yard. She saw me doing this and said, "oh, I know, it probably doesn't look like I've done much." I was silent. Not too validating.

APPLAUSE! Well done! 'You've come along way, baby!' Seriously you are so inspirational. Seeing your growth and how many ways you cope with your mother and are not drawn into the guilt and obligation is just wonderful. 

Wools that WAS a sad story. How much pain you have been through and how much keeps coming up. I think you are incredible for the ways you deal with it. You just won't be stopped will you? I think your spine must be made of incredible stuff the way you keep working through the sadness and fears.

clljhns

My mother would come to my house and criticize me for not keeping my home clean

seems ironic to me. Do you think it's projection? Sometimes this kind of thing frustrates me exceedingly.

crypt keepers only  -LOVE that!

polly - I totally identify with your feeling about vanity. Mine is deep seated also. Plus I hate hate how showy and attention seeking my mother dresses to be. Not so much sexual or provocative but absolutely LOOK AT ME.

I recall her saying over and over as a kid things like "I wear my cardigan inside out because it's a talking point/conversation starter' In fact I had also forgotten about the wardrobe full FULL of clothes she never wears! In fact many of them waaay too small (she is obese but won't admit it)

It really defies sense. I find myself at times worn out trying to figure it out but almost compulsively can't stop 

[isilme]

We've gotten to a point where we just accept anything FI's mom is willing to part with, even if we plan on sending it along to Goodwill immediately, just to get it out of the house.  He fights hoarding and clutter at home, and so do I.  I lost everything several times as a child due to moves, and finally, getting kicked out by my dad, and find myself fighting the fear of 'needing' something, while at the same time, not having a hard time getting rid of most items - it's a bit strange, I guess. I mean, I feel it's better to voluntarily get rid of it, rather than it be reclaimed while evicted (thanks mom an dad), or have your parents toss things because they make things go over the move limit for a moving van.

FI lived in the same town most of his life, and so still has a lot of items from his childhood he can't part with, but he's not at the level of his mom, who gets upset if you throw away a box.

She hoards animals, mostly cats these days, but doesn't take care of them too well in our opinion.  The cats rule the environment, and a box they sleep in once must now stay there forever, even if it's a tripping hazard for the mom, the dad, or FI's 94+ year old grandma all in the same house.  And she feeds but does not care for otherwise the strays outside, who are all pretty sickly, and when one dies inside (and sometimes even when one doesn't) she will bring in a new one.  She has them isolated in rooms, which I don't like at all, but it's made a few so neurotic, that you can't socialize them, now.  One attacked me at Thanksgiving, because I was in 'his' room, the only room with the shower.  To 'protect' the older cat she has in the room with

the on who attacked me, she bought a cage   But to keep the peace, we say nothing.  I tried to ask to remove the litterbox from the middle of the kitchen walkway, because her grandchildren were coming over, and she sad, "this is how I live, if people don't like it, they can go home."  That was Christmas Day. 

There were some dogs in a kennel out back about 5 years ago, and once day, FI realized the dogs were not only dead, but had been left in their dog house.  They looked like they'd died of dehydration to him.    He and his siblings were all disgusted by it, but did not know what to do or say.  How to you ask if Mom about the dead dogs during Easter lunch?  And when Dad enables... .there was nothing to do or say, other than to be very upset and leave as soon as we all could.  To make it worse, we'd thought the animals had been taken out to the family land and buried, but while cleaning the back for his dad's birthday last May, he realized the dog house was NOT empty.  It had simply be turned to keep the entrance towards the house wall.  We were going to use it as a cat shelter, to get rid of all the boxes piled up outside as cat houses, but he saw that and sent me away.  It upset him pretty bad, but he does not know how to mention it, and since they watch us like a hawk when we are there (we're the 'bad' kids who try to clean), so he can't easily disappear out back when the mom keeps all the keys to the house in her housecoat-robe, and locks all doors, nominally because the grandma has bad dementia, is very confused and tries to run outside.  It really results in her basically treating the humans like the cats - stay inside, locked in a room.  So he can't go out back to get to it, as he's been intending to bury to dogs, finally. 

His younger brother just avoids the place, only coming if he knows we will be there, too.  His sister goes for very, very short periods so her kids can meet the 94+ grandma, but we think once she passes, she won't go very often anymore.  We tried going to visit regularly, but dancing around litter boxes every few feet, trash, and random junk on all tables makes it a very wearying trip, even though all they want to let us do is sit in front of the TV with them.  If we go cook, or attempt to clean at all, they get agitated or nervous or just plain upset.

We also get accused routinely of losing, stealing, or throwing out some precious heirloom after another.  Really, the mom lost a lot of her possessions (hard on a hoarder, I know), because they made a deal to sell their house, and did not put forth the effort to pack and move a lot of things.  So the deal was the new owner got to keep anything left past a certain date.  FI took time off and went down there for several days, and dug through animal mess, and years of trash and junk to try to save as much for them as he could.  He would not let me take off to help, partly because he's embarrassed, even though I've seen my own share of things with my own family, and also, I was the breadwinner and couldn't be away.  His mom is convinced to this day we stole parts to a $2000 vacuum she had bought.  Not the whole vacuum, mind you, just the accessories.  We have hardwood floors.  We don't need, want, or use anything other than a hand-vac for the couch.  And the accessories would do us no good without the canister unit, which is still in a box.  But we apparently stole it.   

We no longer drive the 1.5 hours to go stay each month.  Usually we try to make a day trip of it, to keep in contact, but can't really stay there.  It distresses FI too much, as he knows they won't listen, telling his mom things are bad just gets his dad angry, and so it's just a mess.

[Panda39]

Harri I used to watch Hoarders ALL THE TIME and have to control all the emotions it evoked!

My SO's uBPDxw is also a hoarder.  I wanted to show my SO an episode of "Hoarders" because to my surprise an old friend of mine and his wife were on the show.  He watched about 2 minutes and was triggered by it.  It turned into a good conversation.

He has described their house to me and him trying to smuggle things out to throw away at work... .just a drop in the bucket.  She would never let him throw anything away.  One of the best things about getting divorced for him, was moving out and leaving all the junk behind.

His ex has now been evicted 3 times and each time she lost more stuff.  She finally ended up (still is) living in hotels so everything went to storage. Surprise! she couldn't pay for it so the contents of the storage unit were sold.  Good because she couldn't let go... .sad because all of their childrens' things are gone (minus what is at dad's house).

[clljhns]

Do you think it's projection?

Why, yes. I think this should have been her middle name. She used it often. Like the time she told me to divorce my second husband because he reminded her of her step-father.   Uh, okay. Or the time that she told me she hated the house I bought because it was just like the one she lived in from 9-16 years of age, and these were the MOST unhappy days of her life! Well, no, I don't think I will abandon the home I just bought for that reason.

I realized a long time ago that my mother looked at people and their lives through the filter of her experiences and this is motivated her responses. So, I just didn't get that upset when she would make this ridiculous statements or requests of me.

Great thread! I have enjoyed reading the responses and sharing my own story. Thanks for getting this started. 

[Turkish]

Here is something which links hoarding to Axis II PDs (emphasis mine):

www.hoarding.iocdf.org/hoarding/family.aspx#10_signsoarding/

According to Grisham, Steketee, and Frost (2008), those who hoard often have poor insight and display a disorganized, tangential, or detached style of interaction, having difficulty with perspective-taking. They have problems relating to both others’ and their own emotions, but an excessive attachment to possessions, making it difficult to maintain interpersonal relationships. This possible social impairment may also be due to a high association with Personality (Axis II) disorders. In fact, they may be making up for poor social skills by attaching to possessions instead of people.

Possessions or animals are certainly easier to deal with than people. Though less triggering, the underlying issue still lies with the hoarder.

Do any of these resonate? I bolded the ones which I remember well. Oh how I hated, and still hate, garage sales and thrift stores.

www.childrenofhoarders.com/wordpress/?page_id=2610

Experiences Shared by Many COH In Childhood

•Blamed for state of house

•Alternate Realities at home

•The Blinds Being Drawn-in daytime-so people can’t see in.

•Covert/Emotional Incest

•Doorbell Dread-hiding at the sound of knock at door

•Disportionate Power in Family

•Acquisition Trips: Going to thrift stores or craft fairs, or other acquisition-friendly thing rather than kid-friendly function.

•Feeling responsible to help “keep secret” -Elephant in Living Room

•Being made fun of at school (for smelly clothes/bad hygiene)

•Driving around with parent in car looking at how “nice other people’s houses are/they live.”

•Trying to clean up and getting yelled at, instead of being thanked for efforts.

•Christmas trees sticking around forever, some until next season or in tree graveyard in backyard.

[Turkish]

I was talking about this the other day to a work buddy. He pointed out that I had an issue, too, though not near as bad as my mom's. He remembers 10 years ago coming over to my small studio apartment and seeing the piles of paperwork on my counter. I only purged that once a year. He had a point.

I worked past this, and keep my small house clutter-free (there is a pile of paperwork and mail on the dining room table, but there is still room enough for three of us to eat, and I do purge it once a month). My car remains clutter-free, too. My mom once got into an accident. The tops said that all of the paperwork that she had piled up on her dash caused the accident, because it was all over the place after she hit a stopped car (not really true; there were a lot of accidents at that intersection by the Indian Casino, which is why they redesigned and improved traffic controls there... .my mom just wasn't paying attention and it was a semi-dark mountain road, too).

Ironically, the shadow of my uBPDx looms, as I fear that if I drop dead one day, she'll enter the house and it will confirm her opinion of me. She's the opposite, and would go on anxiety-driven Saturday morning cleaning rampages (even after we'd do a Friday night kitchen clean up to her satisfaction at the time). I'd help a little... .and then usually retreat to take care of the babies. She'd often apologize later and say that it was her childhood memories which triggered her. Sometimes she wouldn't apologize and I and the kids would just WoE.

[Lily77]

My uBPD mother is also a hoarder--not as severe one ( her house is never full of trash), but everywhere she's lived has been extremely cluttered, not tidy, and jampacked with furniture and knick knacks and craft supplies and linens and kitchen stuff. The last time she moved it was a nightmare. She was downsizing to a considerably smaller space and refused to get rid of hardly anything. She still has a huge storage unit still filled with things that she can't part with. She had a really bad thrift store and garage sale addiction too, where she would go every week and couldn't come home empty-handed.

[stntylr]

My BPD ex friend was such a hoarder she was featured on a TLC network show. I'm not joking.

[Carmen29]

Hello friends! I am searching for some information on celebrities with ocd. Last week I saw news on a news channel and got to know about these OCD celebrities. Now I want to get complete details. Can anyone provide that?

[Turkish]

Hello friends! I am searching for some information on celebrities with ocd. Last week I saw news on a news channel and got to know about these OCD celebrities. Now I want to get complete details. Can anyone provide that?

Hi carmen,

OCD can definitely be a trait along with BPD which can contribute to hoarding behaviors. Can you tell us more about the person in your life who is causing you problems?

[Ziggiddy]

Panda

He has described their house to me and him trying to smuggle things out to throw away at work... .just a drop in the bucket.  She would never let him throw anything away.

Oh my I had a flashback reading this!

My mother once went shopping at a centre near me(about 70 miles from where she lives) and bought a clearance special of chicken. She took it home, left it in the fridge for a few days then froze it for a couple months. then on defrosting she found it to be too tainted to eat (and believe me, that means it must have been REALLY tainted! Expiry dates mean nothing to her!)

Well when i visited her next about a week later, she gave me the chicken and told me to return it for a refund. Gave me all the details - who she spoke to what time the docket etc Well on the way out I dropped it in the bush and then when i returened, i gave her the $2.85 out of my pocket!

Much cheaper than getting my car disinfected 

But yeah on the note of accepting any thing that's leaving the house no matter what, I take it and rehome it. Mostly to thrift shops. Although all it does is make a space that she immediately goes and fills.

I somethimes wonder if hoarding is related to agoraphobia? like they are scared of space rather than just scared of losing stuff?

[going places]

(1)Anyway have you had hoarding in your family?

(2)Do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from?

(3)Has it impacted you in anyway?

(4)How do you manage?

(1)My ex, his brother and wife, his father and his wife, his mother and her husband... .

They call it 'pack ratting'... .

No, straight up hoarding.

My parents did not pack rat / hoard.


(2) Grandfather was a selfish man, did what pleased him, was very strict on ex FIL.

Grandfather had an affair, and Grandmother died of a broken heart. She died after 25 years of marriage. GF remarried (not even 6 months after GM died).

FIL is a selfish man; Narcissist to the letter. Dumped his wife and family after 25 years of marriage.

BIL is a Narcissist and has anger management issues.

SIL. I feel sorry for her. She's been abused for years.

Ex, is AS-N-Sociopathic hot mess. Dumped his wife and family after 25 years of marriage. I would bet BIG money his male babysitter who lived down the street in his mothers basement, who was in his 30's when he was babysitting a 13 year old boy... .had something do to with my ex's inability to function at a maturity level above age 13.

I would say the 'generational curse' handed down was this:

"YOU are the most important, most intelligent person in the world, and don't let anyone tell you different, because they are stupid"

"Please yourself first, who cares who you hurt" was the example set before them

The pack ratting / hoarding is because they do not want someone else to have the stuff they have.

They want to be able to show others their stuff, and brag that they are the only ones on the planet to have such stuff, etc... .Their stuff equals trophies. Look what I have that you don't have.

(3) I am a purger.

I do not like "stuff". If I am not using it, or will be using it, I get rid of it.

I CONSTANTLY threw stuff away. Gave it away, sold it... .

I can't stand the clutter. It chokes me out.

(4) When we were together, I just went room to room, purging.

Now that we are divorced I can breath.

HOWEVER, the youngest has "pack rat" tendencies that I am addressing NOW.

The generational curse stops now.

[peripatetic]

Have you had hoarding in your family? Do you know or suspect where the source/s of the hoarding come from? Has it impacted you in anyway? How do you manage?

My BPD mom does have hoarding tendencies: Unable to let go of objects, even well after they've served their use; pictures of herself and baby pictures of me & my brother covering the walls; filling garage/sheds/storage areas with empty boxes & other useless garbage; cluttering the house; every chair, table & empty horizontal surface quickly filled & made non-functional; "there's not enough room" [for other people's things]; compulsively taking condiments, sugar packets, and other free things; pride/martyrdom in "scrimping", though this is spendthrift on basic essentials and she mindlessly overspends on compulsive online purchases. She sinks a lot of time into her expensive stuffed animal/doll/ceramic plate/mug/dinnerware/unnecessary kitchen utensil/"collector's item of the moment" purchases, and it probably gives her a sense of structure to her day, and is an outlet for when she loses impulse control. She also has an odd obsession with having many, many clocks – way more than would be useful or necessary. That speaks both to hoarding and her inability to manage time effectively, which may also have something to do with PTSD-like dissociative states and overtaxed executive functions.

Best I've been able to figure up to this point is that her hoarding, lack of impulse control & resultant overspending (despite believing she is a scrimper) is a manifestation of not being able to hold onto friendships/relationships and the resultant emotional attachment problems. But this thread is very interesting because it has added some new dimensions to my understanding of what may be going on, which I can also apply to myself as I go forward. I have recently been thinking about object permanence and how that can contribute to a sense of abandonment, but had not yet considered its role in hoarding behaviors. I don't tend to feel a sense of loss or abandonment when someone or something is out of my view, so I think I'm okay there.

I can't speak to what kind of childhood issues she may have had that could have contributed to this; I don't think she was overly impoverished growing up, though knowing her she probably thinks she was.

How it has impacted me is in a sense of constriction & claustrophobia my whole developing life; overall dysfunctionality (not being able to do things inside that I'd otherwise want to be able to do, since there are so few functional surfaces – which also leads to no longer even being able to think of projects I'd want to do); horror & feelings of helplessness as I have observed over the years her slowly developing less-than-honest communication with people from which she obtains financial assistance (for a supposed poverty she doesn't really have), and then immediately spending that money mindlessly while in some trance-like "other world" that she doesn't process in the same manner as the rest of reality (probably so as she can maintain a sincere belief that she is a victim of poverty that she has no responsibility for). Mom has some ritualized OCD cleaning habits to gain a sense of control over her increasingly out-of-control environment, which I've picked up to some extent. (Cleaning, counting, germ phobia, perfectionism.) And I have reason for concern that I probably have emotional attachment issues due to never having had real people (the proper outlet) for me to express my attachment/bonding feelings. But I hope any reliance I may have on inanimate objects for emotional sustenance may resolve itself as I slowly learn how to be interpersonally effective in my DBT group. (Just last week, I met up with some of them outside of group for the very first time, and we had a nice discussion.)

Lastly, how do I manage? Well, when I was a bit younger, her isolating me from outside social contact made me buy into her worldview – so I wasn't able to tell there was a problem. After her hoarding increased to the point that it was even obvious to me something wasn't right, after she started gambling & stealing other people's money to keep funding her habit, and after I started thinking somewhat independently, I realized that I had managed up to that point by having given up on trying to ever talk to her about anything coming even slightly close to the topic, since there's no having a reasonable discussion with her. (Plus I'd already been witness to my dad's multiple failed attempts pre-divorce.) And so then the ignoring of the situation and denial starts to set in. And visually, it's had a terrible impact because it's given me very selective focus where I'm usually hardly even aware of my cluttered surroundings, which works in this home environment but negatively impacts my ability to notice details in other environments from which I might benefit. And so it makes it difficult for me to be fully present in whatever my current environment is. I feel a crushing weight whenever I gather another material object (especially if it is given to me without being asked beforehand if it is something I actually want – and if mom is doing the "giving", she really has no interest since it's just another tool of manipulation). I'd really like to live a very spartan, non-materialistic existence, but since I also am incapable of knowing when an object has lived past its usefulness (part of my inability to make decisions since I'm so disconnected from my values), all this untested fear that I'm going to turn out similar to my mother in any regard ends up crushing me whenever I think about it. So I try not to think about it. But the distraction is still always there, gnawing away, making me unable to do any task one-mindfully.

My posts are much like my social skills, in that one way in which they are deficient is that all I have to offer is stream-of-consciousness, but I have none of the tools for how to wrap things up in a nice little bow for the sake of others' consumption.