Self-gaslighting

[TenderSurrender]

What happens when someone is dealing with a person who appears to be incredibly high-functioning on the surface?  How common is self-gaslighting?  I mean, it's bad enough when someone else attempts to do it, but when you hear and read all these seemingly clear-headed sentiments and begin to unravel your own constructed logic... .

[jhkbuzz]

What happens when someone is dealing with a person who appears to be incredibly high-functioning on the surface?  How common is self-gaslighting?  I mean, it's bad enough when someone else attempts to do it, but when you hear and read all these seemingly clear-headed sentiments and begin to unravel your own constructed logic... .

Trying to understand your meaning... .are you faced with someone who is a) high functioning, b) gaslighting you, and c) causing you to question your own thoughts/reactions/memories?

[TenderSurrender]

Trying to understand your meaning... .are you faced with someone who is a) high functioning, b) gaslighting you, and c) causing you to question your own thoughts/reactions/memories?

Lol, well, yes to A, and both B and C have happened.  So all three have been in play at various points.  What I see publicly is so jarringly at odds with many things I've experienced/heard personally.  But the person seems incredibly high-functioning generally speaking, so it sometimes has the effect of throwing off whatever I think I know.

[jhkbuzz]

Trying to understand your meaning... .are you faced with someone who is a) high functioning, b) gaslighting you, and c) causing you to question your own thoughts/reactions/memories?

Lol, well, yes to A, and both B and C have happened.  So all three have been in play at various points.  What I see publicly is so jarringly at odds with many things I've experienced/heard personally.  But the person seems incredibly high-functioning generally speaking, so it sometimes has the effect of throwing off whatever I think I know.

My ex was high functioning in the professional sphere - went from being a classroom teacher to an assistant superintendent in a few short years, in large part because she was well liked, good with people, and was good at her job.

I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's.

[TenderSurrender]

My ex was high functioning in the professional sphere - went from being a classroom teacher to an assistant superintendent in a few short years, in large part because she was well liked, good with people, and was good at her job.

I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's.

That's what I've read.  I often wonder why people are are so charmed, like they're getting in on the action, enjoying being part of the fun of this person's persona.  But there's a part of me that separates the two and wonders how much.  Like maybe those people are taking a dip in the (possibly) BPD's world, then they go back to their real lives with their spouses/kids/families.  And I obviously don't know what anyone in her orbit's impression really is when *they're* behind their *own* closed doors.  Maybe there *are* questions that don't get brought up.  Maybe some people have learned that they don't want to take a chance in crossing her (especially if they've already gone through that) and so no one ever publicly questions anything.

But there's a part of me that probably always imagines the most perfect scenario is going on over there, which is where the self-gaslighting might pop up.  But I'm too good at deducing things logically for that to stick.  I don't want to be accurate, or at least partially right, to lord something over anybody, I just know that it would help me to be comfortable with my own behavior for peace of mind.  I do care about how well all my relationships breathe.  And I do believe that when I think about who I am, I know I likely wouldn't betray that to tear somebody apart during this kind of relationship.

But that said, I'm simply amazed by what you've experienced and I empathize.  I imagine it was very tough going while you were in the middle of it.

[jhkbuzz]

My ex was high functioning in the professional sphere - went from being a classroom teacher to an assistant superintendent in a few short years, in large part because she was well liked, good with people, and was good at her job.

I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's.

That's what I've read.  I often wonder why people are are so charmed, like they're getting in on the action, enjoying being part of the fun of this person's persona.  But there's a part of me that separates the two and wonders how much.  Like maybe those people are taking a dip in the (possibly) BPD's world, then they go back to their real lives with their spouses/kids/families.  And I obviously don't know what anyone in her orbit's impression really is when *they're* behind their *own* closed doors.  Maybe there *are* questions that don't get brought up.  Maybe some people have learned that they don't want to take a chance in crossing her (especially if they've already gone through that) and so no one ever publicly questions anything.

But there's a part of me that probably always imagines the most perfect scenario is going on over there, which is where the self-gaslighting might pop up.  But I'm too good at deducing things logically for that to stick.  I don't want to be accurate, or at least partially right, to lord something over anybody, I just know that it would help me to be comfortable with my own behavior for peace of mind.  I do care about how well all my relationships breathe.  And I do believe that when I think about who I am, I know I likely wouldn't betray that to tear somebody apart during this kind of relationship.

But that said, I'm simply amazed by what you've experienced and I empathize.  I imagine it was very tough going while you were in the middle of it.

This was a bit hard to follow because I don't know all the details of your experience.

I can tell you that my ex can be genuinely charming, funny, gentle and sweet. To some degree this is a facade, although I don't think she is being purposefully manipulative; I think much of her behavior is unconscious and designed to get her needs met.  Many people respond to her charming personality - as did I.  I was fooled by it for a long time.  It covered over an awful lot of immaturity, neediness and self-centeredness.

[TenderSurrender]

This was a bit hard to follow because I don't know all the details of your experience.

I can tell you that my ex can be genuinely charming, funny, gentle and sweet. To some degree this is a facade, although I don't think she is being purposefully manipulative; I think much of her behavior is unconscious and designed to get her needs met.  Many people respond to her charming personality - as did I.  I was fooled by it for a long time.  It covered over an awful lot of immaturity, neediness and self-centeredness.

Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes, in a nutshell, it seems our close rapport of two years and change was replaced by boy-toys out of college.  She really seems fixated on casual sex, and was even with me.  It makes me sad.  I don't really believe someone pushing her mid-50s really wants to be doing that or is necessarily even enjoying that to some degree.  It may even be provoking some internal anxiety.  I don't mean that as a judgmental thing but just as a logical conclusion.  I'd rather she had a real partner who was building something with her and loved her, and whom she loved, whoever that turned out to be.  I now wish she had gotten into that a long time ago.  But every woman at that age I've met or come across is very adamant that they don't want hook-ups, so when I meet the one that really guns for it, I then have to go figure out where that comes from.  I didn't care about the sex, I liked the close rapport.  I had to re-jumpstart the whole connection because I cared about who she was and who she could be, and that's what would have led me to that place eventually.

But it takes a long time for someone to get comfortable with getting older, and I think maybe she's ever fully nurtured that deeper side and allowed her life to settle.  She's in real estate and lives a couple of hours away now, but it just feels like she's glomming onto all these new people.  At least a few of the people already in her life for... .maybe years, have been left scratching their heads at someone who seems to have kind of totally rebooted the hard drive so to speak, and only backed up one or two people files.

There's more as far as details go, but for the time being I'll just say that those traits you speak of ring very true.  And I agree that when the behavior or words seemed purposefully used, I suspect they all stemmed from whatever psychology it is that serves as the puppetmaster.  So I'd allow for some leeway in my mind.  I gather that this is tricky because a lot of people here seem really nice, and they're taking abuse that *seems* intentional.  They have to try to remember that it's not, but they can't entirely excuse the pain it's caused, so it's a tricky balance.

[jhkbuzz]

This was a bit hard to follow because I don't know all the details of your experience.

I can tell you that my ex can be genuinely charming, funny, gentle and sweet. To some degree this is a facade, although I don't think she is being purposefully manipulative; I think much of her behavior is unconscious and designed to get her needs met.  Many people respond to her charming personality - as did I.  I was fooled by it for a long time.  It covered over an awful lot of immaturity, neediness and self-centeredness.

Oh, I'm sorry.  Yeah, in a nutshell, it seems my close rapport of two years and change was replaced by boy-toys out of college.  She really seems fixated on casual sex, and was even with me.  It makes me sad.  I don't believe someone pushing her mid-50s really wants to be doing that or is necessarily even enjoying that to some degree.  It may even be provoking some internal anxiety.  I don't mean that as a judgmental thing but just as a logical conclusion.  I'd rather she had a real partner who was building something with her and loved her, whoever that turned out be.  I don't wish suffering on anyone.  But every woman at that age I've met or come across is very adamant that they don't want hook-ups, so when I meet the one that really guns for it, I then have to go figure out where that comes from.  I didn't care about the sex.  That kinda freaked me out actually.  I had to re-jumpstart the whole connection because I cared about who she was and who she could be, and that's what would have led me to that place eventually.  I naively thought that was really... .nice.  Or just the mature thing to do.  

So... .it sounds like you were hoping for a serious r/s with someone who was clear about the fact that they were only interested in casual sex?

This reminds me of a Maya Angelou quote: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

[TenderSurrender]

So... .it sounds like you were hoping for a serious r/s with someone who was clear about the fact that they were only interested in casual sex?

This reminds me of a Maya Angelou quote: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Lol, true.  I always loved that quote.  You're right to some extent, although in this case I think the issue kind of got blurred.  She later referred to our early time together as actual dating, which I had no knowledge of, because there was never any acknowledgement that that was the specific context.  But during that time would have been when she tried to set up a casual sex arrangement.  So it was hard to know because people who consider themselves to be dating someone usually don't think of the sex they're after as casual.

I guess I'll just have to chalk it up to a modest-sized ball of confusion.  But I see your point and it's a logical one.

[jhkbuzz]

So... .it sounds like you were hoping for a serious r/s with someone who was clear about the fact that they were only interested in casual sex?

This reminds me of a Maya Angelou quote: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

Lol, true.  I always loved that quote.  You're right to some extent, although in this case I think the issue kind of got blurred.  She later referred to our early time together as actual dating, which I had no knowledge of, because there was never any acknowledgement that that was the specific context.  But during that time would have been when she tried to set up a casual sex arrangement.  So it was hard to know because people who consider themselves to be dating someone usually don't think of the sex they're after as casual.

I guess I'll just have to chalk it up to a modest-sized ball of confusion.  But I see your point and it's a logical one.

I'm sorry, but the issue only got blurred for you. She was "dating" you in the beginning because she was interested having sex with you. It appears that you decided that she should want something more since she was "of a certain age," but she was clear about what she was looking for from the get-go.  What isn't clear is why you chose to ignore what she told you, and why you attempted to have a r/s with someone who clearly wasn't looking for one.

... .people who consider themselves to be dating someone usually don't think of the sex they're after as casual

You are wrong about that ^.  That is your truth - but clearly not hers.

[Mike-X]

I just read through your posts, and I am sorry about your situation.

Have you read through any of the lessons to the right? Particularly, Understanding Your Situation: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136462.msg1331264#msg1331264

I know that they mostly seem written for people leaving a romantic relationships and that your situation is different. However, I believe that you will find that the core ideas might still apply.

Also, can you help me to understand your "I" statements in the original post and whether this affected your question about "self-gaslighting"? I just get the impression that you are "stuck" on a number of issues, particularly, believing that this woman felt/feels the same way that you felt/feel and that you feel compelled to help her. I certainly apologize if I am way off with this.

[TenderSurrender]

I'm sorry, but the issue only got blurred for you. She was "dating" you in the beginning because she was interested having sex with you. It appears that you decided that she should want something more since she was "of a certain age," but she was clear about what she was looking for from the get-go.  What isn't clear is why you chose to ignore what she told you, and why you attempted to have a r/s with someone who clearly wasn't looking for one.

... .people who consider themselves to be dating someone usually don't think of the sex they're after as casual

You are wrong about that ^.  That is your truth - but clearly not hers.

Sure, and I think you make a valid point there as well.  If this is what works for her, then who am I to say otherwise?

[TenderSurrender]

I just read through your posts, and I am sorry about your situation.

Have you read through any of the lessons to the right? Particularly, Understanding Your Situation: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136462.msg1331264#msg1331264

I know that they mostly seem written for people leaving a romantic relationships and that your situation is different. However, I believe that you will find that the core ideas might still apply.

Also, can you help me to understand your "I" statements in the original post and whether this affected your question about "self-gaslighting"? I just get the impression that you are "stuck" on a number of issues, particularly, believing that this woman felt/feels the same way that you felt/feel and that you feel compelled to help her. I certainly apologize if I am way off with this.

Oh, great, thank you very much.  I'll check that out.  No, it's not really about whether she shares, or did share, romantic feelings or not.  That got too out there for me.  It would never have been feasible to further contemplate.  But it was just like a switch flipped one day as far as the friend part went.  I had someone telling me we were at least friends, and that I was really a valuable part of this person's life, but I ended up having to initiate the efforts to maintain that friendship myself.  One would think that meant I had simply lost the friendship, but I was continually told we were very much friends.  Once, when I got busy for a week or two and was simply tied up every day, I was yelled at for kicking her out my life when that clearly wasn't the case.  I would certainly have just answered the phone or an email or a text, or whatever it was.  It's reasonable to assume that communication is a two-way street.  That was one of the things that got me to question what function I was playing in all of this.

So that's it really.  Whatever the situation is, it just seems like if we say someone has value, we should honor that in our behaviors.  It hurts when the words and actions don't sync up.  I did the best I could do.  If someone tells me he or she is here in my life, I just need some help to keep that going, that's all.

Sorry, I didn't mean any of the above to sound strange or negative.

[apollotech]

"I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's."

Tender,

If you want to stop questioning your own judgment/logic/reasoning I strongly suggest you stop applying weight to your SO's words and watch your SO's actions. The actions tell the tale. Truth is there. If you'll notice, the quoted bit from jhkbuzz is all about actions. There are no he/she said statements in there.

[TenderSurrender]

"I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's."

Tender,

If you want to stop questioning your own judgment/logic/reasoning I strongly suggest you stop applying weight to your SO's words and watch your SO's actions. The actions tell the tale. Truth is there. If you'll notice, the quoted bit from jhkbuzz is all about actions. There are no he/she said statements in there.

No doubt, apollo.  Thank you for that.  You and jhkbzz are absolutely right.  I think both work better in tandem, but the older I get, the more I do think that actions, in general, speak louder than words.

[jhkbuzz]

"I'm convinced that the people she works with would be shocked if they were ever to learn about her behavior in our r/s... .years of acting like a needy child, followed by promiscuity coupled with stunning rounds of deception... .the inability to make reasonable intellectual and emotional connections within the context of our intimate r/s... .it was like night and day.  And that's the thing: the worst effects of BPD manifest most noticeably in intimate r/s's."

Tender,

If you want to stop questioning your own judgment/logic/reasoning I strongly suggest you stop applying weight to your SO's words and watch your SO's actions. The actions tell the tale. Truth is there. If you'll notice, the quoted bit from jhkbuzz is all about actions. There are no he/she said statements in there.

No doubt, apollo.  Thank you for that.  You and jhkbzz are absolutely right.  I think both work better in tandem, but the older I get, the more I do think that actions, in general, speak louder than words.

Yes, it's always nice when actions and words align, but in the end, actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

Have you considered that she distanced herself from you because she sensed you wanted something more than she was willing to give? That's exactly what I would do if I had a friend who wanted a r/s and I wasn't interested.

[Mike-X]

Are you hurting not having her in your life now?

[TenderSurrender]

Yes, it's always nice when actions and words align, but in the end, actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

Have you considered that she distanced herself from you because she sensed you wanted something more than she was willing to give? That's exactly what I would do if I had a friend who wanted a r/s and I wasn't interested.

Sure.  Of course that was a thought, but something still feels off to me.  She occasionally continued to get flirtatious with me *during* the friendship stage, despite insisting she was just a friend.  There was no mistaking that it was happening, , but the immediate flip was equally perplexing.  I would have said that was definitely crossing a boundary.  She actually asked me in a text during that time if I wanted something more than friendship, and I asked if we could not have these kinds of serious chats over texts.  There was a problem with her following through on things we had worked out. Not just plans, but even things as simple as phone calls, and that sort of thing is obviously an important thing to resolve before going down any deeper roads.  And then she disappeared again and we didn't have that talk.  She's told me with some indignation that various friends stopped trying to contact her because they could never get ahold of her, which sounds strange, too.  So I don't think it was just me.  I really do suspect that perhaps she's cutting bait from people she just decides not to deal with and they didn't know that was happening.

As you can see, some of that stuff continued to stay in the mix, but I wasn't overtly pushing for it.  I would not have allowed myself to be anything other than friends and to let the whole thing flow organically.  I just treat these things like I'm in the building stage, like any type of relationship in my life.

I definitely see what you're saying, jhkbuzz.  It's possible she had concerns.  But distancing oneself from me or anyone else without warning just isn't the way to go.  If someone wants to go, then that person can tell me and that's that.  Even the last time we spoke, she told me she'd call me, and I never heard from her again.  If she's in my life, she can be whatever she wants to be, but she can't be dismissive.  Nobody deserves that.

[TenderSurrender]

Are you hurting not having her in your life now?

Yeah.  I am hurting, Mike.  I can't deny that.  It doesn't feel like two people who can't get along, it feels like someone who *won't* get along with me, if that makes sense.  Someone who won't leave my orbit, but yet won't make the effort.  So it's like being in this weird state of limbo.  I don't know if the technical devalue/discard terminology fits, but it certainly feels that way.

[Mike-X]

Are you hurting not having her in your life now?

Yeah.  I am hurting, Mike.  I can't deny that.  It doesn't feel like two people who can't get along, it feels like someone who *won't* get along with me, if that makes sense.  Someone who won't leave my orbit, but yet won't make the effort.  So it's like being in this weird state of limbo.  I don't know if the technical devalue/discard terminology fits, but it certainly feels that way.

Did she explicitly devalue the relationship too?

[TenderSurrender]

Did she explicitly devalue the relationship too?

Verbally, no.  There was no mention of a change.  But action-wise?  Yes.  :)efinitely.

[Mike-X]

Can you give more details an what you were getting out of the relationship?

[starshine]

I have a close friend, VERY learned and intelligent, who is excellent at articulating their point of view in ways that kind of make them make sense.  Until you look at some of these points of view out in the sunlight.  Then many of the things that are said, the opinions spoke of as staunch reality seem a little black/white, filled with judgements and intolerance sprinkled with a bit of superiority.  And this person has enough money and friends (most of whom live long distance, so although it is an emotionally intimate relationship they do not spend a lot of time in proximity) to generally get a PASS from their relationships.  Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy.  Like, why doesn't this feel right, I just can't quite put my finger on it.  This person is incredibly generous, but there is a lot of expectation rolled up in that generosity. But the behavior is there: blowing up at little things, ruining nights out or vacations, superiority complex, triangulating, completely and suddenly ending relationships (that had been close and intimate).  But anyone who knows us both would probably say I'm crazy.  And like I said, sometimes I feel like I am, like I'm the bad friend, for not wanting to end the relationships that are now painted black, or if I disagree on politics, or social issues/norms. 

[TenderSurrender]

Can you give more details an what you were getting out of the relationship?

Even after she moved a couple of hours away in year two, we continued to have great chats, lots of them, and hung out whenever I could get her to do that.  I never knew whether after she moved she was really that busy or merely mostly busy and partially using that, and her years-old mobile phone that mysteriously didn't get everyone's text messages, as a way to control her relationships with people.

I enjoyed those things, even though it was like pulling teeth to get them to happen.  But the thing is I didn't like having to initiate the communication and plans all the time.  And I was.  Eventually that kept nagging at me.  "Why am I the only one having to do this?"  The fact that she didn't end the friendship, and occasionally blurred the line flirting-wise became things that made me uncomfortable and unsure of whether this was a really respectful relationship of equals.

I suppose I ended up chasing a really happy feeling.  But she wasn't just a symbol allowing me to do that.  I really did care.  And I saw her as an individual, someone I enjoyed knowing and wanted to slowly build a great rapport with.  It was a much simpler idea than it turned out to be.

[TenderSurrender]

I have a close friend, VERY learned and intelligent, who is excellent at articulating their point of view in ways that kind of make them make sense.  Until you look at some of these points of view out in the sunlight.  Then many of the things that are said, the opinions spoke of as staunch reality seem a little black/white, filled with judgements and intolerance sprinkled with a bit of superiority.  And this person has enough money and friends (most of whom live long distance, so although it is an emotionally intimate relationship they do not spend a lot of time in proximity) to generally get a PASS from their relationships.  Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy.  Like, why doesn't this feel right, I just can't quite put my finger on it.  This person is incredibly generous, but there is a lot of expectation rolled up in that generosity. But the behavior is there: blowing up at little things, ruining nights out or vacations, superiority complex, triangulating, completely and suddenly ending relationships (that had been close and intimate).  But anyone who knows us both would probably say I'm crazy.  And like I said, sometimes I feel like I am, like I'm the bad friend, for not wanting to end the relationships that are now painted black, or if I disagree on politics, or social issues/norms.  

Some of that sounds very, very familiar.  I think it's hard to feel like letting go of a bad relationship doesn't mean we're bad people.  We want to be good, and ending something doesn't feel like a very kind thing to do.

It's funny... .when the arguments began, she never softened later and made a more conciliatory point, which is the one way I knew I *was* trying.  I made so many concessions I knew I shouldn't have.

The pickle I'm in is that she's a silent presence on Facebook now and that's it.  Since she never called me back per my IM to her on there, I feel like I don't just want her idly sitting on there, which I'd politely requested not be the case.  It feels like her offer to contact me at a later point was done to placate me, as it only yielded silence, and it's possible that she knows the silence is a clear disregarding of that. Facebook just isn't like that for me.  It's become painfully obvious that I really should end this, but figuring out how is tricky.

The problem is I started writing a letter.  It got long.  A therapist friend encouraged me to write out what I felt honestly, but I don't know if a letter feels right, even if I could shorten it or be incredibly articulate.  I like the personal touch.  I don't just want to delete her from Facebook without warning, since that seems cold to me, even if I haven't heard from her in five months.  At the same time, calling her eventually stopped yielding any return call, so it might not work.  If I got the answering greeting and she didn't call me back, she might see that as some sort of element of power in whatever this is.  Mostly, I feel like even if I got her on the phone, it would get weird.  I don't do well things that seem like they might turn into a confrontation.  I'm sure it would get tense, and I'm kind of afraid of her.  I think she's better at asserting herself in conflict than I am.  Even the letter I worked out ended up softening the more I wrote, which wasn't in the spirit of the intention to make it honest.

Is it possible that the more I write and the more I try to just suss it out, the easier it will be to just get all the hurt and frustration out of my system?  Maybe I'll feel enough peace to be able to just not even unfriend or send a note, but just not worry about it anymore.  I feel like what's really important is that I know I want to be free of this.  I didn't before.